Topic: Mother 3 - RetroActive #13 Discussion Thread

[Sundoulos]

  Oops, obviously not, in this case.  At least not that part of it.  My apologies. 

Well, I've only made it to the end of chapter 3, but I'll give my 2 cents on to the questions Jonny posed:

Mother 3s battle system does remind me a lot of Dragon Quest, as has been mentioned a few times.   In a lot of ways, I have found it to be more difficult than other RPGSs because it takes so long to get healing PSI abilities in the game, and, even at halfway through the game, I have yet to encounter an item or a "spell" that allows me to resurrect party members.  It's possible that I probably just missed one.  Like Yankee, I had to spend a good deal of time grinding at the beginning of chapters 2, 3, and 4...especially since the story hits the reset button, and you start over with a new character.   Chapter 2 probably took me the longest of any of them because Duster didn't have any support characters for a while, and I found many of his "thief" abilities to be kind of useless without another character to deliver offensive damage during each turn.

The narrative structure, is a lot like Dragon Quest 4.  While this makes the storytelling a little more interesting, it also means, of course, that Mother 3 shares one of DQ4s greatest weakness: it slows the player's momentum each time you start one of the early chapters.  I don't necessarily enjoy starting over from level 1 each time I progress to a new area of the game, and I found it frustrating to gain some abilities near the end of some chapters that I would miss in later chapters.   

I've never played Earthbound at length, so I can't draw much of a comparison between it and it's successor.  The battle system and graphical style seem very similar, as does some of the 4th-wall breaking humor.  I do enjoy some of the little jabs the game series makes at Japanese (and perhaps, western) culture. Earthbound did do this to some extent as well; I remember that in Earthbound, Ness only communicated to his father through the telephone.  If I recall, you never actually see him in the game.  I have some Japanese friend at college who was an exchange student


Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that seemed more innocent than Mother 3, but I think that is a major point of the game: a lot of the theme seems to deal with the loss of innocence.  You obviously have the loss of innocence of a family (particularly the children) when tragedy strikes.  Also, the game clearly takes a jab at the affects of industrialization and capitalism on a society: Tazmily village loses it's culture and innocence due to the influence of outside forces.  This is common theme I've seen in a number of Japanese movies, anime.  Also, the "happy boxes" are obviously a thinly veiled jab at television or computers.  While mileage may vary on how creative this is, somehow the delivery avoids being overly preachy or hamfisted.

Anyway, this post is going on too long already.  I will say that, overall, I've really enjoyed the game aside from some of the weirder moments with the Magypsies. *shudder*  I appreciate that most of the characters, including the NPCs are uniquely designed, even if I'm not a huge fan of the art style, and I really like variety and uniqueness of the music in the game as well. 

[Yankee]

I have yet to encounter an item or a "spell" that allows me to resurrect foes (meaning allies?).

You actually get one for lucas at level 39. http://walkthrough.starmen.net/mother3/psilist.php I found this pretty useful while playing through. There is also an item you get pretty often called life noodles that resurrects allies.


Anyway, I finished the game a few days ago and have had a while to collect my thoughts. So here we go:


At first I struggled to decide if I liked Mother 2 or Mother 3 more. Actually up to about halfway through the game I was leaning towards the former. However, as the game progressed I found that I liked the sequel more. This decision mainly had to do with the story. I love the lighthearted feel and the charm of Earthbound, but it never really progresses any further than that. Before I played Mother 3 I actually though that a serious story would be detrimental to that lighthearted feel that I loved so much. I actually found it to be the exact opposite. I believe that they complement each other very well in the way they are handled in Mother 3 and that it made the overall game more enjoyable. Mother 3 also throws in some nice ties to Earthbound at the end although for most of the game they seem unrelated. Mother 3 also has a very creative end sequence before the credits which I thought was really interesting.


Another thought I have had is how in many ways the design of Mother 3 is similar to that of Final Fantasy 13. I, like Lindy and Jonny on RFN, have been playing through that game recently. I started to notice after I went through Mother 3 that the game is very linear, like FF13. But Mother 3 does a much better job of hiding this fact and makes you feel like you are able to explore more openly. If you ever do go too far off course, text pops up in Mother 3 saying “there are ants by your feet, don’t step on them” or something to that effect. Mother 3 feels much more open because they guide you from area to area without showing you that you are going in a straight line like FF13 does. The setup is the same for both games, really. Chapter starts, then a cutscene, then you play though an area. Rinse and repeat. The design of the two games eventually splits because it seems like at some point the developers felt a need to open 13 up, which is very disorienting when it happens and has turned me off from going back into it for now (I would have actually been fine with the game sticking to its prior format). Mother 3 doesn’t do this and really doesn’t suffer from it at all. I never once thought of the game’s underlying linearity while I was playing it.


And one more note, I found it hilarious that at one point in chapter 8 text from Leder popped up in my game and said “you have been playing for a long time, why don’t you take a rest” or something like that. It seems like Nintendo has been up to this kind of stuff much longer than recently.

[Mop it up]

Here are my final thoughts on the game. I guess I should spoiler this... and if you haven't completed the game, you very likely don't want to read this.

As soon as I saw the "Happy Box" things, I was like "oh great, this is going to be some preachy thing about how capitalism is evil or something." And I was mostly right, it's about how greed and technology destroyed the world... which is so preachy it's boring and uninteresting. Though, I can't say I cared about most of the people in the world, since a lot of them came off as shallow and unintelligent.

Some other characters have a problem with believability, too. Like Flint, for example. He completely and totally neglects Lucas throughout this entire game. I know he's been through a lot, but I'm not so sure anyone would obsessively look for their missing child for three straight years, spending every waking moment searching for his son or visiting his wife's grave, all the while ignoring his other son who's right there. Right there!

This game was still decent though, up until the eighth chapter, at which point it fell apart. The biggest issue? Leder's speech. Not only is this little backstory almost completely irrelevant, but it also makes the whole game feel pointless. I think it was outrageous to state that the rest of the world was destroyed, and that the people of this little island are the only ones left. It would have had more of an impact if this island were somewhere in the modern world, and were discovered by some outsider who sought to take advantage of the people. And it is delivered through nothing but text, rather than showing scenes from the past, so it was boring.

Though, Porky showing up right at the end was also a terrible inclusion for this storyline. His loose connection felt very forced, like they had to include him because of how Mother 2 ended. I think it would have been quite a tragedy if it were in fact Claus who built the empire and wanted to control/destroy/whatever Porky's intentions were for the world. And it still doesn't explain a few things... like why the needles had to be pulled, and how Porky got there, among others. And the whole world was ambiguously destroyed in the end, which made everything feel pointless. Everyone now just exists in blackness? Hooray?

The final "battle" was so slow. We know the Masked Man is Claus, this was obvious since the first time we saw him. We shouldn't have to sit through a lengthy battle sequence constantly healing Lucas whilst their mother says the same basic lines over and over and over again. Plus, Flint's act of heroism is simply described in the text instead of in a cutscene. The whole scene was poorly done, and would've had a lot more power if it were played out in some other fashion.

I also think there are quite a few distasteful attempts at humour. The aforementioned scene where Lucas learns PSI is a prime example, where the text implies Lucas is raped. I don't think that's actually what happened, it's just supposed to sound like it.

On its own merits, Mother 3 is a competent game, but as a follow up to Earthbound, it was quite a letdown. Only the battle mechanics and graphics were improved, everything else ranged from slightly below to far worse. It has left me with the feeling that perhaps it is better if Earthbound is a one-off thing, nothing but a happy memory from my youth. I'm okay with that.

[adadad]

Wow, just had stupid realisation. I, like Yankee, was really struggling on certain bosses (I'm well into chapter 5 currently), and I was wondering why all the new equipment from vending machines was so expensive when there didn't seem to be any source of DP. Of course what I didn't realise was that you do receive money for fighting enemies that you can withdraw from frogs! I had to check an FAQ to find this out, and I don't think the game does a good enough job of informing the player about this. Now I know and the stats of the characters have just jumped up considerably so I think things are about to get a whole lot easier.

[Yankee]

Though, I can't say I cared about most of the people in the world, since a lot of them came off as shallow and unintelligent.

I disagree, I think that is used to fuel the humor and charm of the game though. Earthbound was the same way. The whole world of arguably both games is shallow and unintelligent, which mirrors the element of innocence in the story as well. I also agree that the scene in which Leder explains the back story could be made better with some cut scenes or something, but I feel like the information he provided was interesting and gave more context to what you experienced earlier in the game. Like you said, it was a little shoehorned in though. I also like that the ending was left up in the air a bit for the player to think about.

And adadad, I agree the game does a bad job at explaining this. I found it out basically right after they introduced the system by just asking the frog out of curiosity to see how the banking system worked. Then I saw the money from the enemies I killed in there. It probably would have been better if they just told you how much you earned after every battle, like I think they did in Earthbound.

[vudu]

what I didn't realise was that you do receive money for fighting enemies that you can withdraw from frogs!

I don't understand why Nintendo chose to even have the frogs act as ATMs.  There's no gameplay-mechanic that makes it beneficial to not carry all your DP with you at all times.  And it doesn't fit into the story like it did in EarthBound.  It makes no sense.

[Sundoulos]

what I didn't realise was that you do receive money for fighting enemies that you can withdraw from frogs!

I don't understand why Nintendo chose to even have the frogs act as ATMs.  There's no gameplay-mechanic that makes it beneficial to not carry all your DP with you at all times.  And it doesn't fit into the story like it did in EarthBound.  It makes no sense.

Yes, I was wondering if there was some sort of penalty for dying, such as losing DP you haven't deposited.  If there is, I haven't noticed it so far.

[adadad]

what I didn't realise was that you do receive money for fighting enemies that you can withdraw from frogs!

I don't understand why Nintendo chose to even have the frogs act as ATMs.  There's no gameplay-mechanic that makes it beneficial to not carry all your DP with you at all times.  And it doesn't fit into the story like it did in EarthBound.  It makes no sense.

Yes, I was wondering if there was some sort of penalty for dying, such as losing DP you haven't deposited.  If there is, I haven't noticed it so far.

There is, if you die you lose half the DP you have on your person.

[Mop it up]

I disagree, I think that is used to fuel the humor and charm of the game though. Earthbound was the same way.

There's one major difference: The people of Earthbound didn't lead themselves into destruction. Twice. That's the difference between the people of Earthbound seeming charming and whimsical, and the people of Mother 3 seeming idiotic and foolhardy.

Also, due to the scene where you walk around in blackness talking to people, I don't think it leaves anything up to the imagination. Without that, it might. With few exceptions, I think that a story with an ending that leaves things up to the reader's imagination is lazy storytelling. And Mother 3 definitely feels rather lazy.

[Yankee]

There's one major difference: The people of Earthbound didn't lead themselves into destruction. Twice. That's the difference between the people of Earthbound seeming charming and whimsical, and the people of Mother 3 seeming idiotic and foolhardy.

I don't see them as being idiotic or foolhardy. I see them as being more human. In Earthbound the characters are stuck in a fantasy world. They are never subjected to any sort of reality. Mother 3 has characters that behave very much in the same way as Earthbound, but these characters at times are forced to cope with death and loss. Through this outside influence on their once perfect world the characters make decisions that eventually destroy their utopia. This never happens in Earthbound. The characters in both games are lighthearted and innocent to provide some charm, but Mother 3 takes advantage of that to enhance the message of the human condition in the story. Compared to Mother 3, the behavior of the characters in Earthbound is about charm and novelty alone.

[Mop it up]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't get that feeling from it, and I think it's largely due to the weak storytelling and presentation, from all the reasons I mentioned, plus some I didn't. It just doesn't fit together.

[Yankee]

Yea, a person's opinion of the story is really vital to how they perceive the rest of the game.

[Mop it up]

Are you mocking me?

[Yankee]

I don't understand, how would I be mocking you? I am agreeing with you. I seemed to like the story elements of the game more than you have expressed, and as a result like the other elements of the game that you have taken issue with more. I am sorry if you took my post another way somehow.

[Mop it up]

My apologies. I happened to read the comment as sarcasm, it might be because sarcasm tends to start with "Yea."

[Yankee]

Ah ok it's alright. I blame the internet.

[that Baby guy]

Here's some end-game spoilers and my impressions.

So, my impressions?  Not nearly as good as Earthbound.  The entire last chapter of the game says "Screw You" to Mother 3's plot, and turns the game into an Earthbound spin-off, rather than a sequel.  Everything in the game becomes about Mother 2, with the exception of one hallway and a few speeches by some characters, all cobbled together.

Leder's speech, in particular, was incredibly annoying.  What's the point of what he tells you?  What's the point of the egg?  What's the point of the castle.  Everything in the game that pertains to Lucas, Claus, Duster, and Kumatora is basically summed up as irrelevant, since Itoi and the plot's developers decided to really reveal things all in one go, by a person that didn't make sense, in order to try to tie up all the loose ends of the plot.

In truth, it became clear the game was about two things: Lucas's family and the end of Porky.  In both cases, I felt let down.  Since Flint was such a terrible father, I really felt like he had very little place just popping up at the end of the game to finally try to take a little bit of responsibility for Lucas, and only it was convenient to his discovery of Claus.  Then, Lucas, rather than growing up and having the guts to end his brother's misery, forces his mostly-brain-dead brother to commit suicide, instead.  Essentially, even though the game makes it a point to say Lucas is the coddled baby of the family, he doesn't do much to grow up, aside from set out on adventure, and continue adventuring.  He never makes a hard decision.  He doesn't fight to protect himself, his friends, or the world.  He does exactly the opposite.  When it comes time for Lucas to grow up and be a man, he chickens out, and the Deus ex Machina of his dead mother saves the day.

With Porky, we see all the twisted things he's done, but he never really seems to posses the power or greed we saw him growing towards in Mother 2.  Honestly, there wasn't a reason to have him in the game, and yet, he took over it.  It didn't fit.  It didn't fit the nature-based theme, it didn't fit Porky, and it didn't fit the Mother series.  Really, in the end, he took a bunch of crazy nutcases from the town of Tazmily and just made them slightly nuttier.  I know Earthbound and Mother are supposed to have quirky, weird characters, but the difference between Earthbound and Mother 3's characters is that in Earthbound, the characters know they're flawed, imperfect, and greedy.  In Mother 3, they're idiots portrayed as being the last, best people on the planet.  They're shallow and superficial from the very start, and unlike in Earthbound, the script isn't quite written as such.

Regardless, if there's one thing I know Mother 3 does too much of, it's carry out a joke for far too long.  The oxygen machines come to mind at this point.  They were slightly funny the first time.  Then jokes about them just kept popping up and kept popping up, and it just wore thin.  Likewise, the Magypsies got old pretty quickly, too.

It just felt too scatterbrained and too inconsistent of a game to be on par with Earthbound.  Like I said earlier, I think the straw that broke the camel's back was Leder and his speech for me, but there were quite a few things that contributed to what made me value the game much less than Earthbound.  Also, Boney should have been better.

[Jonnyboy117]

I'm now in Chapter 5. What percentage of the game would you say that I've played? I'm not going to complete it before we wrap up RetroActive, but I've tried hard to play as much as possible. (15+ hours now)

[Yankee]

I clocked in about 22 or 23 hours at the end of the game, so you are pretty far along. After 5 the only real significantly long chapter is 7. Chapter 6 honestly shouldn't even be called a chapter and chapter 8 isn't terribly long either.

Also, I don't know if anyone saw this, but last week Destructoid's game series debate to the death was the Mother series. Here are the results that the users there came up with. http://www.destructoid.com/game-series-debate-to-the-death-persona-series-180587.phtml

[Sundoulos]

I will agree with thatguy and Mop it up with this: Mother 3 does seem to repeatedly commit the cardinal sin of writing: telling the audience about something rather than showing them.    As that guy mentioned, the story makes a point of telling us that Lucas is a crybaby and a little soft.  We see a little of this during the opening chapter, but by the time Lucas appears again, it seems that this problem has already been resolved.  When we see him again at the end of chapter 3, he comes to the rescue of your party rather heroically with the Dragos.  Once you take control of Lucas, I'm not sure you experience any character growth; it would have been more interesting to take the player along the journey to show how Lucas changed over time.   It would have been more interesting to experience that change with him in your party, even if it wasn't through his eyes.

Also, why not, at some point in the game show a flashback of how Hinawa saved Lucas and Claus?  The reveal of Hinawa's death worked for me...mostly because I know a little like what it felt like to be Flint.   Most anyone who has had a scary experience where you think you might lose your spouse or your child does know what that feels like.  Still, it would have been interesting at some point to see a flashback of Hinawa's heroism.  I have not reached the end of the game, so, to be fair, I don't know whether this is actually done.

I agree with the earlier comments about Flint's sacrifice in the final battle as well, and I watched part of a video that shows the final fight.  We're told that Flint sacrificed himself.  Why not show it?   Given that other RPGs like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI were doing this years ago, it seems strange that Mother 3 stays so rooted in the past in ways such as this one.

[adadad]

Well it's 4am here but I just finished Mother 3. Wow, I have to say overall it was a really enjoyable and ambitious experience, one that clearly had a ton of care and effort put into it. The writing is excellent and without it I have to admit there wouldn't be nearly as much to enthuse about. In some ways though I feel the experience was probably too ambitious for a portable product - the game is always good at providing regular savepoints but the endgame is very lengthy and as such not well equipped for portability. Perhaps it was partly for this reason that Mother 3 ended up reminding me a great deal of Ocarina of Time (the combination of the climb up the Empire Pork Building, the variety in the final battles and the final image of Osohe Castle being razed followed by the lengthy character credits - plus the latter had that nostalgia soaked feeling that certain Nintendo titles possess, and it was blatant about it too during the boat ride in the Empire Pork Building. An off-topic example of that incredible nostalgia in another game - Rainbow Road in Mario Kart 64 makes me well up every time). It really makes me wonder how things might've turned out differently had the game been realised in its prior conception as Earthbound 64.

Also I very much enjoyed the music battle system and after getting the hang of it it became quite satisfying, it definitely made enemies and bosses much easier and meant I was able to avoid grinding. The rolling counter is cool too and I like the way it's there to be exploited, it can force you to make decisions quickly or in the case of the final battle, very very slowly... In addition the music throughout the game is excellent. I especially love the song Snowman. I'm left wondering why the hell there isn't a single song on OCRemix...

Finally I have to say I'm slightly surprised to read comments about the game being unsatisfactory in comparison with Earthbound - I tried EB a few years ago and while I enjoyed aspects of it, such as the quirky humour and the battle system, I wasn't compelled to play it through to completion.

[Yankee]

The music in both Mother 2 and Mother 3 is excellent. There was a remix project called Bound Together done for Earthbound. It can be found here: http://www.wushuplaya.com/boundtogether/
Although I do like the music in both games very much, I have to say that Earthbound has the slightly more memorable soundtrack. Duster's Theme, Snowman, Love Theme, and Mom's Hometown are my favorite tracks from this game though.

Also, while searching for Mother music just now I came across a fan music section on Starmen.net. http://starmen.net/fanmusic/
There may be some remixes of interest there.

[Jonnyboy117]

We didn't get a chance to talk about the music on RFN, but I have been underwhelmed by it overall.

[trev424]

We didn't get a chance to talk about the music on RFN, but I have been underwhelmed by it overall.

Really I think Mother 3 is the best OST Nintendo has produced outside of Brawl.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPf7F1Sljbc

This track in particular I think is really well done. And some of the later boss music is pretty amazing. The amount of varied battle music in this game is what makes the game so fun to play. I really think you should give the beat based battle system so more tries. It really takes a simplified battle system and turns into something really fun to play. Getting the timing right, especially for songs whose beats changes, is pretty fun.

[noname2200]

I'm glad to see that my disappointment with Mother 3 isn't as unique as I'd thought.  It's still a solid game and a great RPG, but it just didn't measure up to Earthbound for me.  I think it's a combination of the things that have already been mentioned:  the tone of the game felt too inconsistent, the plot and characters never really gripped me (although I did like the final battle, and the game had several nice moments sprinkled throughout),  and the connection to Earthbound felt tacked on at best. 

RFN compared it to Chrono Cross, and I think that's appropriate:  you meet a character from the previous game early on, but until the end of the game there's little else to connect the two titles, and when the connection is made, it feels unsatisfying.  New Pork City really is a second Chronopolis.  Anyhow, I'm gald I played it, but it wasn't what I was expecting.