Topic: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant

[Khushrenada]

Argh! Stupid server.

Alright. Time for me to gripe. I don't know how the rest of the players are finding this game but man, I am not hosting a mafia game fore awhile. Too much to deal with.

First of all, we have the leak of mafia name so roles have to be re-set. Then I have to start answering lots of questions about roles. Nothing unusual except many of the questions are complicated. I thought thatguy had a complicated game but holy, this has got to be second place if not first.

I have to deal with Wandering's scandal.

My computer has had some stupid virus on it for the past week which causes the internet to get redirected to ad sites every time you try to load a page. Trying to load NWR means I get redirected to ads twice before it finally directs me correctly. So, then I can't get on the internet because my brother is helping get rid of the virus.

I'm staying up late and the lack of sleep is starting to catch up to me though that's just minor and something that happens every time I host. I thought I'd have more time for hosting and looking after things and at times I have. I've tried to get on during the day when I was able to get a moment to quickly answer any questions I had. But, I find my schedule is getting busy again and these late nights are getting harder.

And now, the stupid server rendered the website unavailable for awhile so now I'm behind on the story I'm not even sure anyone's following. Not to mention the time I lost my argument post against GP. I kinda liked it to. Was curious how she'd respond. Woulda been nice to have a little side battle going on as a chance to release some pent up rage. Still bugs me as you can see.

Ah well. It's nice to take this opportunity to unload my frustrations and let you see the fun I'm having behind the scenes. Anyways, since I think this will be my last hosting for awhile (not forever but I'm defintely going to plan my schedule better for any future hostings) I still intend to complete my story as stupid as it is. And I still have a little something planned for when the game is wrapped up.

So, please, bear with me in these delays of story. Although the story is delayed, I won't let it delay the game.

[Khushrenada]

Details:

Thatguy was killed by vote.
Thatguy was The Bounty Hunter.

Athrun Zala was hit by the Mafia.
Athrun Zala survived because Athrun Zala has Gambler's Luck.


Bill D-7 was rejected yesterday.

Bill D-8 is as follows:

So you all didn't want my help in voting out the remaining members of the mafia? Well let's see how this bill fits you. For starters if the last two standing are the remaining mafia member and myself, we both win, no one else. Also I would like the ability to kill one person still playing after the ratification of this bill. If you think that is not enough I am also proposing a 2 for 1 sale on thermal detonators for the rest of the game.

If you want to live for another day I think you better get back to ratifying these bills I propose to you.

You Beloved Senator


Voting time is the same as yesterday.

First actions due by 11:00 pm EST
Voting Ends - Midnight EST.
Final actions due by 12:30 am EST.


Finally, there was some questions in the night about getting rid of someone with the Force Rebound ability. There is one way to do it that I knew of but it's up to you to figure out. However, one townie has found another way to do it that I never realized. A rule loophole if you will. This is what I mean about the game being complicated. So, this game is not quite over yet.

[Kairon]

THATGUY was the BOUNTYHUNTER?!?!

That means there's a bountyhunter's apprentice then. Hmm. Hey Khush, the apprentice, he starts at 0 points right?

[Khushrenada]

The way I view the Apprentice would be like the Suicide Bomber and Suicide Bomber Apprentice of Mafia 6. Now, I'm not saying that I'm the apprentice. I'll assure everyone right now, I have no role except to host. But, according to the rules of that game, the Suicide Bomber Apprentice would not blow everyone up if killed before the regular Suicide Bomber. Only if the regular bomber was blown up would the Apprentice Bomber then have the ability to do the same.

Likewise, the Bounty Hunter Apprentice gets no points from the previous Bounty Hunter's stash. He has to build up his own. Nor was he able to collect any bounty from the regular bounty hunters hits or have points given to him. The only scenario I that would allow the Apprentice to have points is if he had the Bounty Hunter role at one time and collected some points and then had the role taken away from him. Since he doesn't lose his points from the switch, he still has them. Thus, if he was made Bounty Hunter Apprentice, he would still have points. Since the regular Bounty Hunter died, he has in effect taken his place and become the Regular Bounty Hunter. He is no longer the Apprentice and so all the power of the Bounty Hunter is his now. (The ordering of hits and collecting of points and spending of points.)

[Spak-Spang]

.

[bustin98]

Dear Senator,

Its time for the Republic to become more democratic. Here's a proposition for you.

Let's take what you suggested yesterday, but turn it into a people's choice. You may have your extra vote during the day and select whom you would like to vote off. No one else gets an extra vote. But three others have to agree to the vote and the selection. Those three others have to be specific and known townie roles. Those three can change due to circumstances in the game but will remain constant for as long as they are alive. Everything must be decided in PMs. The three will not know who the others are. This bill will be null and void if a townie is voted for in the extra vote. The bill will also be void if there are not enough townie roles to fulfill the requirements. If one member of the committee reveals the identities of the others the bill is void and the offending member loses his normal vote and powers for one day.

The mafia will gain Force Insight and will be told if a target is an extra voter.

Only townies get to vote because the Mafia does not pay taxes and no representation without taxation.

[NuclearSpeed]

I am going to follow what I started yesterday and vote with Spak so today before some explaning comes along i will Vote Kairon

[vudu]

Not sure what to do yet.  I think I'll sit back for now and see how the day pans out.

[bustin98]

I'm changing my vote for now.

[Kairon]

This definitely is a very interesting situation. There's still a mafia person, the senator has force rebound, and the bounty hunter's apprentice is up. What complicates it further is that the apprentice could be a townie since he was chosen after some investigations... hmmm... I'll send out my information to everyone in a few hours. Stay tuned.

[Kairon]

Please, all townies hold your votes until further information from myself. Repeat, DO NOT VOTE until you get in contact with me.

[Kairon]

If any townies have any questions, you can always IM me, don't forget!

[Khushrenada]

Well, voting has ended. Now it's time to set-up a discussion about the interpretation of the rules and roles. Wonderful.

Final Tally:

Kairon - 1

However, due to the power of the Jedi Mind Trick, Nuclearspeed's vote has been changed to himself thus Nuclearspeed has been voted out.

Now, here's where it gets dicey.

Nuclearspeed has been protected by Force Rebound. According to the rules of Force Rebound, the power works this way:

The player who is able to execute the force rebound is one is able to deflect the attack of his opponent and send the attack back to the one who sent it. For instance, if this player was voted out, he would be able to survive and choose someone who voted for him to replace him. Thus, they recieve the attack of getting voted out. Likewise, if he was the target of a mafia hit, the hit would deflect from him back to the person trying to carry it out.

So, Nuclearspeed has survived the vote and the vote is rebounded back to someone who voted for him. However, the only person to vote for Nuclearspeed was Nuclearspeed, thanks to the Jedi Mind Trick. Therefore, the choice has been made for him, Nuclearspeed is the recipient of his own rebound.

But wait, it says choose someone. What if he chooses no one? Well, that's the interesting thing. I don't say he "may" choose someone nor do I say he "must" choose someone. The only reason there is a choice in the first place is in the event that multiple people voted for the player with Force Rebound. Then, as a benefit of that power, the player with Force Rebound is given the opportunity to get revenge on one of his opponents. But, let's say that only Kairon had voted today for Nuclearspeed. With Force Rebound Kairon would be dead. There would be no choice because there was only one person who voted for Nuclearspeed so there is only one person the vote could be redirected towards, in that case, Kairon. So, it is the same situation here. There is only one choice for the vote rebound and that is Nuclearspeed who ended up voting for himself.

Moreover, this isn't a perpetual rebound where Nuclearspeed forever keeps rebounding the vote because he has force rebound. Notice again what the role says:

The player who is able to execute the force rebound is one is able to deflect the attack of his opponent and send the attack back to the one who sent it. For instance, if this player was voted out, he would be able to survive and choose someone who voted for him to replace him. Thus, they recieve the attack of getting voted out. Likewise, if he was the target of a mafia hit, the hit would deflect from him back to the person trying to carry it out.

In all cases listed, the any attack that has been rebounded is carried out against whoever it rebounded to, the person who sent it. Therefore, since Nuclearspeed carried out the attack against himself in this case, the attack is rebounded to the one who sent it, Nuclearspeed and it is carried out against that person. So, the rebound attack is carried out against Nuclearspeed.

Why wouldn't the attack rebound to the player with Jedi Mind Trick? After all, his role says:

With this ability, a person is able to cancel another player's vote and replace it with a vote of his own.

So, it is his own vote, therefore he is the one who is really voting for Nuclearspeed. I'll admit, this is the biggest area someone could make a case against this ruling. But, let me explain it this way. Let's say a player with Jedi Mind Trick cancelled Khushrenada's vote and made him vote Thatguy instead. Two other people also vote Thatguy and Thatguy is voted out. But thatguy has Force Rebound and can redirect it against someone who voted for him. So, he would be given a choice of people to rebound the vote to. So, does that mean the player who's vote was changed by the Jedi Mind Trick would be eligable? No, he would not be listed. That vote is secret and is meant to be kept secret. The only reason it is being revealed today is because it has to be.

We had one situation earlier where the vote was a tie but because of the Jedi Mind Trick the Tie was broken. It was not revealed who's vote was cancelled and changed. In fact, it was the First vote with Dasmos and he had Force Rebound and he was not told who had their vote changed as a choice to kill showing there is a precedence for this to occur.

So, if we don't show the person who's vote was cancelled and changed, should the player with Jedi Mind Trrick be listed as a choice since he was the one who ulimately cast the vote? Again no. Obviously, if one had a list of choices and a name came up of someone who didn't vote for them, the player with Jedi Mind Trick would have their identity blown and may be killed because of that. And if that were to be the case, it would go against the whole point of the role. Being able to secretly and silently influence the vote a bit in your favor.

And again, the precedent was set in this game already in the Dasmos vote. The player with Jedi Mind Trick was not listed as a choice to kill in the vote rebound because of the secret vote he cast. I will admit that he was included as a choice but that's because he voted for Dasmos publicly and not because of his secret extra vote.



So, that is how the day's action turned out. This is what I meant about tough confusing rulings. You may argue things because of the letter of the law such as stating the Jedi Mind Trick Power says his own vote meaning the vote is his but my ruling is based on the spirit of the law and how I concieved the roles as working.

[Kairon]

Well, here we go.

[Kairon]

So, the way I read it, NuclearSpeed is dead.

[NuclearSpeed]

Shouldn't the Jedi Mind Trick never happen in the first place because of Force Rebound?? That should redirect the Jedi Mind Trick back upon the one with the Trick thus causing their own vote, which is none in this case being changed??

[Khushrenada]

Wow. An even better arguement has just emerged.

[Khushrenada]

Alright. Give me a moment. I will be back in 20 minutes.

[Kairon]

Shouldn't the Jedi Mind Trick never happen in the first place because of Force Rebound?? That should redirect the Jedi Mind Trick back upon the one with the Trick thus causing their own vote, which is none in this case being changed??

No, Khush already ruled on this earlier in the game. The Jedi Mind Trick was used on a player with force rebound affecting him, Dasmos, and Dasmos was not given the mind-tricker's name. In fact, in that case, the mind trick did not reflect back on the mind-tricker. If force rebound did not reflect the mind-trick in that situation, it won't have done that in this one.

Additionally, the Force rebound refers to reflecting attacks, and jedi mind trick is not an attack. It's a trick.

[NuclearSpeed]

Shouldn't the Jedi Mind Trick never happen in the first place because of Force Rebound?? That should redirect the Jedi Mind Trick back upon the one with the Trick thus causing their own vote, which is none in this case being changed??

No, Khush already ruled on this earlier in the game. The Jedi Mind Trick was used on a player with force rebound affecting him, Dasmos, and Dasmos was not given the mind-tricker's name. In fact, in that case, the mind trick did not reflect back on the mind-tricker. If force rebound did not reflect the mind-trick in that situation, it won't have done that in this one.

But Dasmos wasn't the one targeted with the Mind Trick, a vote was changed to vote him out and he didn't get the name of the changed vote or the Mind Trick person, he had to choose between who had voted for him in the thread to rebound back to.

[Kairon]

Additionally, the Force Rebound refers to reflecting attacks, and jedi mind trick is not an attack. It's a trick.

[Spak-Spang]

The Jedi Mind Trick isn't an attack though.  It is a change of vote...the attack comes from being voted out.

[Kairon]

Jedi Mind Trick is exactly the sort of thing that great master's of the force would acknowledge the power of: wisdom instead of violence, subtlety instead of power. It isn't disrupting Force Rebound at all. It doesn't nullify it, disrupt it, remove it, destroy it or anything. It doesn't act on the player per se, it acts on their vote.

[Khushrenada]

Here's the big problem with the game.

I already allowed a Jedi Mind Trick to occur on a person who was was using Force Rebound on themselves. The Day 1 vote. Dasmos vote was changed to vote for himself, Dasmos. And I counted it as a way to break the tie. To me, that was the main purpose of the Jedi Mind Trick. To either break ties or nullify a vote.

Yet, that was an error on my part. That vote changed probably shouldn't have happened. In my rules, I list Force Manipulation as the only ability that can disrupt Force Rebound meaning it is the only action or power that can stop it. With Force Rebound prevented, any other action could then take place against the player with Force Rebound. You can argue that Force Balance isn't an attack yet Force Rebound prevents a Force Balance from taking away that power.

Unfortunately, I'm kind of stuck in a damned if I do, damned if I don't kind of situation. Day 1 was hectic trying to get everyone up to speed on their new roles due to the switch and I had to keep waiting all day for the mafia to choose a godfather. Technically, the Jedi Master and the player with Force Rebound were supposed to tell me what their action was to be before the game started. Meaning if they wanted to protect someone on day 1, they were to tell me before I posted the first day. But since day 1 got delayed due to my schedule and then the mafia roles getting revealed, I decided to quickly post Day 1 and get the ball rolling. This allowed those players to send in their actions later in the day. A privilege they would never get again. So, why am I bringing this up.

Simply put, I made a mistake. A dumb error on Day 1 and I've never realized it until now. By allowing the Jedi Mind Trick to occur, I never thought about it being rebounded until now when Nuclearspeed brought it up. It's just so obvious that I should have realized it from Day 1. The problem is, I was so focused on the vote being rebounded, I never thought about the vote change action as being an issue. Dasmos wasn't going to die from the vote so what do I care if his vote gets changed to himself to break the tie. Yet, I realize now that anything except Force Manipulation should have been rebounded.

One could almost make the arguement that this changes the whole game. What would have happened if Dasmos never won the vote and Force Rebounded a player? So, I'll admit I may have screwed up the game from the beginning. It's hard to say if it would have made a huge impact in the end with the way things went but there it is.

But, likewise, I was so caught up in how Nuclearspeed would rebound the vote that I never realized the Jedi Mind Trick should get rebounded in the first place.

Now, the best part is, I was just arguing about precedents set in the game. I just gave the precedent of the power of the Jedi Mind Trick working against Force Rebound. So, if I allowed to occur once, must I allow it to occur again? If I don't, then what happens to the start of the game?

And now there is the matter of what is an attack and what isn't. In the roles, every role touches on the power of Force Rebound and how it affects it except for three. Force Lightning, Force Insight and Jedi Mind Trick. In the case of Force Lightning, that is seen as an attack and since it takes away a person's power for the day. If Force Balance can not take away a protected Force Rebound player's power, why should Force Lightning be able to. Not to mention, I also list Force Manipulation as the only power that can disrupt Force Rebound.

Yet, what about the other two? For instance, Insight could be used against a player with Force Rebound to learn their identity. Is that an attack? Should it have been repelled? Interestingly, the player with Future Forseen could not find out who is being protected by Force Rebound. The reason for that being to prevent the mafia from learning the identity of the Force Rebound player since they would presumably be protecting themselves for awhile. Yet, Future Forseen is not really an attack. Why can't the mafia find out who has the power if the townies with Force Insight can?

Yet, the biggest reason why the Jedi Mind Trick should be allowed is here:

I never listed that the Jedi Mind Trick would get repelled by Force Rebound. I only mentioned attacks or things that would cause death. If a vote change wouldn't cause death, should it still go through? The vote change is really a role that is supposed to break ties. This was brought out in the rules under ties. So, since there was no tie, should I even care about the changed vote? After all, aside from this situation, the role is quite useless if not breaking a tie. Moreover, why should only one vote be repelled? Why not all the votes cast against the player with Force Rebound. Why wait until all the votes are cast and then choose one of the voters to die from a vote rebound? Since I know who is going to be protected that day, why not say at the start you can't vote for this person?

Simply put, to add an element of surprise. To vote a person out only to learn they get revenge due to their protection. As well, to change up voting habits. If other votes are not being blocked, then the Jedi Mind Trick should be able to work also since it adds to that surprise.

The Force Rebound is a glorified doctor who is able to not only protect from an attack but return it. Yet, in other games, if the protected player got his vote changed, wouldn't it still count? Or would the player be protected from that too? Probably not. So, shouldn't a vote change count here?

These are the questions I've pondered and I'm ready to make my ruling.

The Ruling

Due to precedence and the way I forsaw the Jedi Mind Trick working, I would have to let the Mind Trick crack the defenses of the Force Rebound player and change his vote. If I'd allow it in a tie situation, which was supposed to be the purpose of the role, to break ties whether a player tied had rebound or not, then I must allow it to occur when there is no tie. In this case, changing the only vote cast.

However, due to the fact that this information was missing to most players including the player with Force Rebound, the entire day is null and void. It's a do-over day. And why not? We already had to do-over handing out the roles. Plus, I cite Mafia 5. One day ended in a tie and since there was no rule about resolving a tie, nothing happened that day and it was played out again. Likewise, with the clarification of roles due to rules that were missing about them, Day 8 will be a do-over also.

I recognize this may be of frustration to some players who seized upon this realization that the Jedi Mind Trick gambit could work and I apologize for that. That was my fault. I never thought about what the players with Force Rebound no doubt thought, that all actions against them were repelled except for Force Manipulation. Because of that, the player with Force Rebound was also led down the wrong path concerning his role and not given accurate knowledge of the roles and how they could affect him.

[Kairon]

ARGH!!!

T_T