Topic: Why does the Mushroom Kingdom look different in each new Mario adventure?

[pokepal148]

This whole discussion demonstrates how annoying it is that Nintendo is so disinterested in having some sort of consistent canon.  What other company just throws this stuff out without any real explanation and leaves their fans to guess what's what?  If I was a game designer the world building would be part of the appeal and I sure as hell would try to make sure it all made sense.

does it matter in this case?

[NWR_insanolord]

I don't want them to care about establishing a canon in the Mario universe. Zelda, sure; Metroid, also sure; Mario, why the hell would they bother? I'm with Miyamoto on this one; Mario platformers should have as little story as possible, because it's irrelevant and only serves to slow things down.

[Sarail]

I don't want them to care about establishing a canon in the Mario universe. Zelda, sure; Metroid, also sure; Mario, why the hell would they bother? I'm with Miyamoto on this one; Mario platformers should have as little story as possible, because it's irrelevant and only serves to slow things down.

I sort of agree and disagree.

The opening portion of Super Mario Galaxy was filled with story - it was the most engrossed I've ever been in a Mario platformer. I've always wanted to see more of that...dispersed between sections of levels to further the story of whatever Mario game it may be. It was highly enjoyable, and it really added to my immersion with Galaxy.

The only other Mario game that did that was Super Mario World. World's was done on a smaller scale via the reformation of the world map as you played, and the small scenes that took place after each dungeon defeat. But it created so much more character and charm when compared to other Mario platformer entries.

So, yeah...I'm all for more story being created for Mario games. You can have great platforming gameplay and an immersive story all at the same time - despite what Miyamoto believes. Just because he thinks opposite of this, doesn't mean that's how it should be.

[Caterkiller]

I would think the simplist explanation is that the Mushroom World is either a large country or literally the entire world that the Mario characters live in and that the Mushroom Kingdom is one of many kingdoms within it.  Like New York City is part of New York State.

SMB 3 says Mushroom World, not Mushroom Kingdom, so I would just assume there would be some differentiation.  Surely if it took place in the Mushroom Kingdom they would have just said "the lands of the Mushroom Kingdom".  Assuming that each royal family has their own kingdom is a much more logical assumption than to assume some big empire where each royal family answers to some greater kingdom that rules over all of them.
 
This whole discussion demonstrates how annoying it is that Nintendo is so disinterested in having some sort of consistent canon.  What other company just throws this stuff out without any real explanation and leaves their fans to guess what's what?  If I was a game designer the world building would be part of the appeal and I sure as hell would try to make sure it all made sense.

It's only frustrating when you take it seriously like that. It wasn't until I was between 18 or 21 when I finally started to realize that continuity in games is pointless and any story or setting that goes along with it should be taken at face value. You Ian specifically made me realize game writers are "failed movie and book writers," there is never anything to count on. At least Nintendo isn't trying to put all the Mario titles together, explaining everything like there is true meaning and value behind it. It's the developers that try to do it with their epic story lines and explanations that look even more foolish.

I love the people who follow Kingdom Hearts, Zelda, Sonic(used to be me), Metal Gear religiously. So much convoluted bull crap yet the true rubes go "that's deep" and just buy into the whole thing. Don't get me wrong I love a decent story in games, and I really love when everything is clear and explained, but what developer out there cares about that stuff as much as the fans and is even slightly aware of every detail like the fans to keep it consistent? None of em.

So to answer the question, especially with Mario, who cares? It's probably best not to think about it when you don't have Miyamoto himself there with you answering questions. Still I'm certainly guilty of this, I have an emotional investment in the Shell VS Saddle debate.

Now then, the true moral to this story is you all need to read One Piece. It's extremely consistent the writer is amazing and knows more about his story then the fans. It's the only thing any one can believe in now a'days.

[ThomasO]

The opening portion of Super Mario Galaxy was filled with story - it was the most engrossed I've ever been in a Mario platformer. I've always wanted to see more of that...dispersed between sections of levels to further the story of whatever Mario game it may be. It was highly enjoyable, and it really added to my immersion with Galaxy.

People I've tried introducing Super Mario Galaxy to in the past often stop after the first 15 minutes. They got tired of Rosalina force-feeding her side plot, which has no impact on the game as a whole. They just wanted to play the game. I have to agree. I didn't like being yanked back to the start of the Observatory every few stars to listen to some bullshit about the Toad Brigade, who have nothing to do with the advancement of plot at all. Sure they appear in a few levels, but they contribute nothing of value... they're just there. I enjoyed SMG2's lack of story a lot better as a result.

[Ian Sane]

It's funny to ask "who cares?" because I don't think many of us truly care in the sense that this of any real importance.  I find Nintendo's general ineptitude at storytelling to be a moderate annoyance at best.

The thing is that if you have good gameplay but also keep your stories and world consistent it makes it MORE fun.  It isn't like incoherency and gameplay quality are tied together.  Nintendo is just very good at one part of great game design and really terrible at another.  I would rather play a game with great gameplay and a lousy story than one with a great story but lousy gameplay but I would REALLY like to play games with both.

I remember the first time I played Super Mario RPG and I really liked how it fleshed out Mario's world.  It was the first time Mario really needed to meet characters and visit areas that had to look like some real place instead of some abstract obstacle course.  It just added to my general enjoyment of the Mario franchise.  I think it's a lot of fun to look at a map for the game world as if it is some real place.  No one would be selling a map of the Mushroom Kingdom if it wasn't fun to look at stuff like that.

If you don't put some effort to give us a coherent fictional world, why bother with any of it?  Why have a story at all since no one has any emotional connection to rescuing the Princess?  You ever play the old Mario games and think when you're losing "oh man, if I fail the Princess is never going to be saved from Bowser"?  Mario games might as well be obstacle courses that exist purely for the enjoyment of the player going through them.  Of course they come up with characters and settings to disguise the game as some quest... but then half-ass it.  I think the problem is that in 1985, SMB's simplistic "story" wasn't so simplistic for the time but Nintendo has just not grown out of that.

[NWR_insanolord]

I'm not just indifferent to the story, I am actively opposed to story in Mario games. If they could just not have any story or cutscenes and go directly into the first level when I hit start that would be great.

[lolmonade]

I think Super Mario World (and NSMB U, to a lesser extent) did this best.  Make the world map seem like you're traversing to several sections of the world, and in Super Mario World's example, follow-up each castle completion with a short and sweet vignette of what just occurred and where Mario is going next.

I don't think mainline Mario games necessitate a sprawling epic story, but I wouldn't actively protest it as long as it wasn't something that drags on & doesn't seem to add value.

[Stogi]

Nintendo could simply make a bunch of those special levels from Sunshine with absolutely no context. Just throw me in there and if I complete it, throw me in another one. And it could possibly be the best mario game ever made.

[Ian Sane]

Most of the Mario RPGs have pretty enjoyable quirky stories that fit Mario pretty damn well.  I would have no problem with that sort of story being present in Mario platformer.

Something that I think is related is that a lot of games seem to take forever to get going.  I had some time to kill at the mall last weekend so I played Luigi's Mansion on a demo 3DS in Toys 'R' Us.  This was the full game, not a demo, but after like half an hour I still had not encountered even one ghost.  Now I wouldn't be so impatient playing at home but in the old days you turned the game on and you were playing it.  You didn't have to go through some long prologue before the real meat of the game started.  I don't want a time wasting Mario story that keeps me from playing the first level, but that doesn't mean I want no story.  The story is at fault for the initial slow pacing but that is a flaw with the execution, not the overall concept of videogames having stories.

[pokepal148]

i am tempted to write a creepypasta type thing explaining that mario is a complete drug addict and that the mushroom kingdom is what he thinks of when he gets high(peach is his ex girlfriend who left him out of disgust over the situation, bowser is really peaches new boyfriend, and luigi is just tagging along trying to keep mario because he is the only one that cares anymore) but i'm too lazy.

[TJ Spyke]

I would think the simplist explanation is that the Mushroom World is either a large country or literally the entire world that the Mario characters live in and that the Mushroom Kingdom is one of many kingdoms within it.  Like New York City is part of New York State.

SMB 3 says Mushroom World, not Mushroom Kingdom, so I would just assume there would be some differentiation.  Surely if it took place in the Mushroom Kingdom they would have just said "the lands of the Mushroom Kingdom".  Assuming that each royal family has their own kingdom is a much more logical assumption than to assume some big empire where each royal family answers to some greater kingdom that rules over all of them.
 

LOL, I finally decided to check the manual for SMB3, and it seems to make it clear that the Mushroom Kingdom is just one country in the Mushroom World:

The Mushroom Kingdom has been a peaceful place thanks to the brave deeds of Mario and Luigi. The Mushroom Kingdom forms an entrance to the Mushroom World where all is not well. Bowser has sent his 7 children to make mischief as they please in the normally peaceful Mushroom World. They stole the royal magic wands from each country in the Mushroom World and used them to turn their kings into animals. Mario and Luigi must recover the royal magic wands from Bowser's 7 kids and return the kings to their true forms. "Goodbye and good luck!," said the Princess and Toad as Mario and Luigi set off on their journey deep into the Mushroom World.

[tendoboy1984]

Mario games might as well be obstacle courses that exist purely for the enjoyment of the player going through them.

That's essentially all they are. Pretty much all 2D platformers are just obstacle courses.