Topic: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate And The Never-Ending 3rd Party Character DLC

[segagamersteph]

I haven't watched the video yet, did they say every character ever, does that mean the Ice Climbers are coming back and nobody is talking about it or are they still out and nobody cares?

[Khushrenada]

They're back. They're in the OP with some pictures I posted. People have cared. They just haven't expressed it in this thread. Lots of Ice Climber love in Discord and Twitter.

[segagamersteph]

Thanks. I saw the other thread. Wow. This whole news makes me happy. Plus I love Daisy.

[Khushrenada]

What new characters are you expecting or that they can possible still add? Realistically, I think an ARMS character has the potential to show up. I think King K. Rool and Dixie Kong have a potential shot. Same goes for Chibi-Robo. Considering that all third party characters are in this game and Nintendo is giving each company just one character to represent, I'm actually starting to believe that Rare/MS may get Banjo-Kazooie in this game. Or Nintendo could do something to strengthen their growing Bethesda partnership and have someone like the Doom Marine appear. What else is there in third parties? (So sick of the Goku requests. Goku is not a video game character.) For Nintendo, what other character needs representation at this point? Perhaps Paper Mario makes it in. We've got three Links so why not three Marios. A second Xenoblade character?

So, I was thinking about this a bit after posting it and making supper but what franchises don't really have representation in Smash yet? Rhythm Heaven is one but I don't see any character being able to fit Smash from that game. Maybe as an assist trophy or some kind of item from the game.

Then I got thinking about the 3DS. The Pushmo series got started there so Mallo might be an option but what kind of moves would he have? He's just pushing or pulling blocks. So, pass on that. There's BoxBoy. That could be interesting as he creates and throws blocks around. Maybe there is something doable there. Then there is the Dillon series with Nintendo just releasing a third game for it. Dillon was already an assist trophy so Sakurai is aware of him. It's possible he could be moved up to the big time.

However, it would mark the first time that a character from a non-physical release game series would be included to the main roster. Generally, it is all been characters able to deliver and be found in retail game releases. I guess those are considered the bigger stars so I'm not sure if any of those potential new franchises would be represented.

That said, there are a couple other third party options that may have a good chance of getting included. Shovel Knight got his own darned Amiibo already and Nintendo's been a pretty big promoter of that game. It eventually did see a physical release so it meets that criteria of appearing in retail. They could always combine some moves with the other Knights too. A second option (although it seems much more of a longshot) is Shantae. She got her start on Nintendo systems and has had some physical releases and promotions by Nintendo. With the doors open on 3rd party characters with this game, maybe she's got a chance for this one.

I was reading a joke article of new characters to include in Smash and one idea was Metal Sonic. However, I'm not opposed to that idea. I'd love for Metal Sonic to be an Echo or skin of Sonic himself. Heck, even Shadow could be included that way but I'd prefer Metal Sonic over Shadow. With the good Sega and Sonic relationship Nintendo seems to have, it may be possible for the Sonic series to get a bit more exposure in the Smash world. Of the third party characters and franchises represented, Sonic is the one that I wouldn't mind seeing a couple other characters have appear like Tails and Knuckles but I don't think that will happen. Already saw Knux as an Assist Trophy so a couple skins/echoes to sneak in more characters might be the only way to make that happen.


One thing I noticed with some of the wishlists I was reading was how many of them were third party characters. I think its clear that at this point, Smash has done pretty well at covering the Nintendo characters most liked and wanted. Yes, there are always going to be some outliers like a Waluigi request or Geno request. But the fact that so many people are now talking and thinking about non-Nintendo characters shows that the well is starting to run a bit dry as to what new Nintendo characters need to be included in Smash.

[Shorty McNostril]

I just want to know what single player stuff is in the game.

I want a full single player campaign.  I have no inerest in playing online so if it's got next to nothing in the single player I won't be purchasing.  I loved Brawl's nice big campaign.  I'm not sure if I should be worried that they haven't mentioned anything yet.

[Khushrenada]

To sum up, my current wishlist for Smash Inclusion would be:

King K. Rool
Chibi-Robo
Twintelle
BoxBoy
Banjo-Kazooie
Paper Mario
Starfy
Prince Fluff
Rex/Pyra - One or the other or a combo like Ice Climbers
Isa or Saki (Sin & Punishment representation)

Ok. I am thinking why stop at potentially 70 fighters? Why not go for that 75 diamond gold anniversary type number? Probably won't happen. I had Dixie Kong on the list but I ended up dropping her because I don't think her moves would be as interesting as some of these other choices and most are new series and more appealing to me for representation. If only more DK character is to be added, I'd prefer it to be K. Rool.

I'm surprised at how my mind kept going to other Mario characters as well. Kamek, E. Gadd, Fawful, Wart were all characters that occured to me with potential and as surprising but I just limited myself to Paper Mario who's got more potential for varied attacks thanks to the RPG and Sticker Star/Color Splash adventures.

Other franchises without a main character representation would be Star Tropics, Golden Sun, Advance Wars/Battalion Wars. I did think of a character from Rhythm Heaven with base potential and that would be Karate Man. We see him kick and punch a lot in rhythm games but pretty basic. Yokai Watch and Professor Layton are also both without representation but Yokai may have the better chance of getting a character included over Layton. Having not played a Yokai game, though, I'm not sure what that might be like.

I think that's enough musing on potential Smash character surprise inclusions for tonight. Tomorrow is another day to get hyped as hopefully more Smash music is revealed on the Smash website.

[Luigi Dude]

Is it asking too much that people wait six months or probably fewer with leaks to find out if this is the final roster? Of course it is. I should expect less, not more from the internet.

A large number of the Smash Bros fans have always had a problem with jumping to conclusions.  Remember how with 3DS/Wii U, Sakurai said in some interview after the game was revealed that making a game with the roster the size of Brawl was a lot of work.  Then right after many thought his comments meant the newest Smash Bros was going to have a roster the same size as Brawl meaning Sakurai was going to cut a lot of characters to make way for the newcomers and then started bitching about it.

Even though Sakurai never once said 3DS/Wii U would have the same roster size as Brawl, many jumped to that conclusion based on his comments about the development being hard work.  So now it's kind of the opposite where Sakurai announces everyone is returning and its a big task to have this many characters, which is making them think it means they'll be no more newcomers, even though Sakurai never once said that, along with Daisy and Ridley both being revealed after the statement about everyone returning being a big task.

I was reading a joke article of new characters to include in Smash and one idea was Metal Sonic. However, I'm not opposed to that idea. I'd love for Metal Sonic to be an Echo or skin of Sonic himself. Heck, even Shadow could be included that way but I'd prefer Metal Sonic over Shadow. With the good Sega and Sonic relationship Nintendo seems to have, it may be possible for the Sonic series to get a bit more exposure in the Smash world. Of the third party characters and franchises represented, Sonic is the one that I wouldn't mind seeing a couple other characters have appear like Tails and Knuckles but I don't think that will happen. Already saw Knux as an Assist Trophy so a couple skins/echoes to sneak in more characters might be the only way to make that happen.

One thing I noticed with some of the wishlists I was reading was how many of them were third party characters. I think its clear that at this point, Smash has done pretty well at covering the Nintendo characters most liked and wanted. Yes, there are always going to be some outliers like a Waluigi request or Geno request. But the fact that so many people are now talking and thinking about non-Nintendo characters shows that the well is starting to run a bit dry as to what new Nintendo characters need to be included in Smash.

Well all of the third party characters in Smash have popular characters from their franchises that could easily be made into Echos.

Sonic - Shadow
Snake - Big Boss
Mega Man - Proto Man
Pac-Man - Mrs Pac-Man
Cloud - Zack
Ryu - Ken
Bayonetta - Jeanne

Seriously, I would not be surprised if at least 3 of the characters I named end up getting in as Echos.

I just want to know what single player stuff is in the game.

I want a full single player campaign.  I have no inerest in playing online so if it's got next to nothing in the single player I won't be purchasing.  I loved Brawl's nice big campaign.  I'm not sure if I should be worried that they haven't mentioned anything yet.

The Subspace Emissary in Brawl was first shown on August 3rd of 2007.

https://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/gamemode/modea/modea02.html

This is back when Brawl was originally scheduled for a early December release that year like Ultimate does now.  So if Ultimate is going to have an Adventure mode, it could still be a few months before they unveil it. 


This is actually why I find it really funny how I see a lot of people on the internet thinking this game will just be a collection of content from previous Smash Bros when many of the previous Smash Bros didn't really show most of their new content until a closer period to launch then we are even at right now.  Hell, the Wii U version of the last Smash Bros didn't even unveil it's exclusive modes, Smash Tour, Master/Crazy Orders, and 8-Player Smash until a month before release.  It could literally be until late October/early November until we truly know everything this game has to offer.

[Adrock]

I’m not big on character/stage wishlists. My wishlist of not character/stages hasn’t changed since March:

1. Fix the menus. Make them cleaner and easier to navigate. Training should be on the main screen.
2. Ability to toggle off stage hazards because sometimes it would be nice to play the regular stage setup without the randomized BS that can kill you. (June 2018 EDIT: there’s talk this may be included beyond Omega/Battlefield mode)
3. Updated Smash Run Online and Local:
   a. At least 8 players.
   b. All players are in the same map and can interact with each other because...
   c. The map/"safe area" gets smaller until everyone is in the same area for the last minute or so then it's a regular match with all the bonuses everyone found. Yeah, it's just a Super Smash Bros. version of Fortnite.
4. Story mode:
   a. The characters are not toys or trophies anymore. They're non-canon versions of their actual selves. That means the writers actually have to care about characterization. Come up with some BS McGuffin for why the characters are brought to the same world. Why they're all together is not the interesting part; what they do once they are is.
   b. Fully voiced cutscenes.
   c. This is not Adventure Mode. As evidenced in Subspace Emissary, the gameplay doesn't lend itself to that. Think along the lines of Mortal Kombat (2011)/Mortal Kombat X. It's regular matches with exposition cutscenes. The story gave players a reason to keep pushing forward while also naturally allowing them to try all the characters except without silly platforming segments that really aren't the point of the game.
5. Tag Team mode. I don't know why this isn't already a thing.
6. Every character gets a taunt that causes minimal damage (like Luigi's bashful kick) for ultimate disrespkt. For example, Palutena's stripper pole taunt should count as a kick if you run into it.
7. Don’t turn Super Smash Bros. into games-as-a-service. In fact, I’d prefer if Super Smash Bros. Ultimate only received post-release patches, meaning no DLC. If it’s “ultimate,” I shouldn’t have to buy more things. I think the chances of no DLC are slim.
   a. Sakurai earned a break and a new non-Super Smash Bros. project.
8. Amiibo auto-unlocks a character. According to Sakurai, in-game unlocking will be hella easier. However, if you bought a $13 NFC statue, you should get to unlock that character immediately.
9. ”Colonel, it’s Jack Bauer! What’s he doing here?” Snake’s codec conversation when fighting himself on the Shadow Moses stage should reference David Hayter getting replaced by Kiefer Sutherland. I’m only half-joking.
   a. “Finally, the better princess joins the battle,” when fighting Daisy. Definitely NOT joking.
10. Voice-chat enabled with Friends List at least in the lobby, disabled for non-friends because no one wants to hear strangers ****-talk.

[Evan_B]

When a vast majority of your characters are mute or don’t speak in full sentences, it’s difficult to characterize them.

[Adrock]

When a vast majority of your characters are mute or don’t speak in full sentences, it’s difficult to characterize them.

Maybe more difficult but definitely not impossible. There have been studies that have concluded that most communication is nonverbal. A character doesn’t need to have spoken dialog to have a personality. Unless the developers are actively trying to make a character a blank slate, characterization in a cross-over game is as easy as looking at the games the characters come from and staying true to them.

[Mop it up]

When I discount my huge list of "never gonna happen" characters, the only realistic choice I'm left with is a character from the Wars series. That feels like the largest hole left in the current roster, or maybe that's just because of how much I like those games. But I think the series is pretty much dead, which probably means it won't be showing up.

While I'm just a passing casual player and some of the tweaks people have been talking about are lost on me, polishing up existing characters and stages is probably a good idea for the series at this point in time. What I'm hoping for, myself, is that they're adding a slew of new modes and options for multiplayer. I feel like little has been added to the vs. mode since Melee. I would also like all local modes and options to be available for online play.

[nickmitch]

I’m not big on character/stage wishlists. My wishlist of not character/stages hasn’t changed since March:

1. Fix the menus. Make them cleaner and easier to navigate. Training should be on the main screen.

The menus in the 3DS almost felt unfinished in certain parts, so this is a big one for me as well.

What do you mean by "Tag team mode"?  Like just being able to select a number of different characters as separate stocks? Or being able to actively switch between them?

[Adrock]

What do you mean by "Tag team mode"?  Like just being able to select a number of different characters as separate stocks? Or being able to actively switch between them?

Actively switch between them.

[pokepal148]

That kind of would ruin the point of characters like the Pokemon Trainer though.

[lolmonade]

I will say, in lieu of me getting characters I wanted or seeing a reduction in headcount as a trade for re-tooling some of the character movesets - Just going "screw it, they're all in there" is a good way to make a lot of people happy.


I'm not rushing out the door to get this version unless some of my friends end up wanting to play online together since I have the Wii U set up still, but I'm sure i'll get it at some point.

[Adrock]

That kind of would ruin the point of characters like the Pokemon Trainer though.

How so? Pokemon Trainer counts as one fighter with each Pokémon sharing the same damage meter. Then, each fighter in a tag team would have their own damage meter like tag mode in other fighting games.

[Mop it up]

So I was thinking about something. If they've now come up with their own term for "clone" characters with the word "echo," do you think that means they're planning on adding a few more of them as well? I know they talked about this right before introducing Daisy, so maybe it was just to make it clear what she is. Still, seems a bit odd to create a whole term for just a few characters. I can certainly think of several other characters who could fit the bill (example: Isabelle for Villager).

Anyone else have thoughts?

[Stratos]

It certainly falls in line with Sakurai's past comments about liking to use clones for easy fan service. Make some new FE fans happy by adding Lucina as a Marth clone, Daisy as a Peach clone, etc. If it means we can get our favorites than I am all for it.


Would be a good way to add another Xenoblade character from the new game/content, or event some of the inevitable new FE characters that are bound to appear.

[Adrock]

So I was thinking about something. If they've now come up with their own term for "clone" characters with the word "echo," do you think that means they're planning on adding a few more of them as well? I know they talked about this right before introducing Daisy, so maybe it was just to make it clear what she is. Still, seems a bit odd to create a whole term for just a few characters. I can certainly think of several other characters who could fit the bill (example: Isabelle for Villager).

Anyone else have thoughts?

Yes. Absolutely. I think that’s the plan.

What I find confusing is that only Dark Pit, Lucina, and Daisy are considered Echo characters. Dr. Mario, for example, isn’t an Echo even though he’s literally just regular Mario with a white coat pretending he has a medical license. I’m not really sure what the criteria is for designating whether a character should be an Echo. Dr. Mario basically has one different move (Down + Special). That said, I was thinking it’s just same animations, different attributes. Lucina is straight up shorter, female Marth. Same move set, same animations (beyond taunts), just no tipper damage. Daisy has some different animations, and Dark Pit has a different Final Smash. Both of these things blur the definition of Echo characters even more.

Is one move where Sakurai draws the line? I’m curious because this may open the doors to a wider (better) selection of characters. For example, say Sonic gets a 1:1 Echo similar to Lucina. We’re stuck with what, Shadow (ew). Change one move and we could get Knuckles or Tails.

[Luigi Dude]

From what I've seen, here's pretty accurate list of characters I think have the best shot at being Echos.


Donkey Kong - Funky

Very similar body type and was playable in the recent port of Tropical Freeze where he's also very much like Donkey Kong.  He was also playable in Mario Kart Wii which sold over 35 million copies so he's pretty well known by people around the world.  Plus if he has Funky voice and some meme tastic taunts and he could be a new fan favorite.

Ness - Ninten

I mean Ninten already looks extremely similar to Ness so it's not like they'd have to change his model that much.  Plus if Fire Emblem can have Marth, Lucina and Roy then it's not hard to imagine Mother getting Ness, Ninten and Lucas which would literally be the exact same situation.  Plus this would then make the stars of every Mother game as a playable character, which would be a nice way to try and please that small but extremely devoted fanbase.

Captain Falcon - Black Shadow

Now that Ganondorf finally uses his sword in all his Smash attacks, combined with the other changes he's been given between Brawl and For, he's pretty far removed from the slower but more powerful clone of Captain Falcon from Melee.  Black Shadow as an Echo would be the perfect and easy way to give the Ganondorf fans of Melee that old moveset back.

Sheik - Impa

Impa's design from Skyward Sword and Hyrule Warriors would fit Sheiks built and moveset pretty well.  Plus like I've said before Impa would be the most important reacurring Zelda character behind the current cast so if Sakurai wanted to include another Zelda character that wasn't Link, Zelda or Gannondorf, making her an Echo of Sheik would be an easy way to do it.

Roy - Eliwood

The 7th Fire Emblem was the first one released in the West and Eliwood was the main character of that.  When Lyn as an Assist trophy and Hector requiring a unique moveset to get in, if Sakurai wanted to appeal to fans of that game Eliwood would be the easiest to get in.

Snake - Big Boss

Well Snake is already a clone of Big Boss in the MGS universe so it would be fitting that Big Boss gets in as a clone in Smash.

Ike - Chrom

Chrom was originally planned on being playable in the last Smash before Sakurai decided Robin would be a more unique character to put in.  He's still pretty popular among Fire Emblem fans so if Marth can have his own Echo with Lucina who's Chrom's daughter, then using Ike to add him would be pretty easy to do.

Sonic - Shadow

This one is about as obvious as it gets.  He's still really popular with a large percent of the modern Sonic fanbase and the easiest Sonic clone to make.

Olimar - Louie

Yeah I knew Alph is already an alternate custom for Olimar but if Sakurai wants to give Pikmin a second character that's somewhat different, Louie would make a good Echo.  Plus he's secretly evil so it could give another villain to the roster.

Villager - Isabelle

Isabelle would be the most popular Animal Crossing character that would make sense to have Villagers moveset as well.  If they want a second character from this franchise but don't want to make something unique, this would be the most fitting Echo.

Mega Man - Proto Man

Now this one could be tricky since he's already part of Mega Mans Final Smash.  Still, after playing Mega Man 9 and 10 I would love to see Proto Man get in as a more powerful version of Mega Man, but he'll take a lot of damage like the game he was from.  He could be a great glass canon character that would be easily to implement with Mega Mans moveset.  I mean, they could always find a way to edit Mega Mans Final Smash so if it was used on Proto Man he just wont appear in it.  Yeah this one is more wishful thinking on my part but I'll still keep my fingers crossed.

Palutena - Medusa

This one would be controversial because Medusa easily has a lot of things from her fight in Uprising to make her unique.  But Kid Icarus isn't exactly the most popular Nintendo franchise and I'd imagine more requested characters would be given the time and attention for unique movesets.  Still, since Medusa has the exact same body type and uses a staff like Palutena, if Sakurai wants her to be in just for the fan service like Dark Pit, I could see him adding her as an Echo.  Plus it would give the series a female villain, something it currently doesn't have in the roster.

Pac Man - Ms Pac Man

I mean all they really have to do it make Pac-Man faster and add a bow and lipstick.  Probably the easiest Echo character to implement.

Ryu - Ken

Reading about Sakurai's past will show he was a huge Street Fighter 2 fanboy back in the early 90's.  I would not be surprised if he really wants to add Ken, and making him an Echo of Ryu would be an easy way to do it, and match how he was in Street Fighter 2 as well.  Plus Ken is still insanely popular with the Street Fighter fanbase so there's a lot of people who would easily be behind him doing it as well.

Cloud - Zack

This one is probably the least likely but hey, Zack is popular with the Final Fantasy 7 fanbase and even had his own game.  So if they want to make the Final Fantasy 7 fans go crazy, Zack would be the easy choice to squeeze another character from that series in.

Bayonetta - Jeanne

This one I wouldn't be surprised if it happens.  She's plays exactly like Bayonetta in both games so it's not like anyone will complain if she's a clone of her in Smash Bros since it would literally be 100% accurate to the source material.  Plus since Bayo was the most requested character to appear during the DLC poll, it gives an extra reason to give her fans another character to play as from that series.

[Evan_B]

All of those choices disgust me.

[pokepal148]

So Pokemon Trainer can just switch pokemon with the snap of a finger? Interesting... let's go for victory by transformation spam.

Also apparently gamexplain has found evidence for possibly 83 different stages that have been shown so far. Holy ****.

That kind of would ruin the point of characters like the Pokemon Trainer though.

How so? Pokemon Trainer counts as one fighter with each Pokémon sharing the same damage meter. Then, each fighter in a tag team would have their own damage meter like tag mode in other fighting games.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

[Caterkiller]

I’ve been so busy since the reveal I haven’t had too much time to post anywhere but holy heck did my emotions run wild!

I heard all the rumors pointing to Ridley so just this time I decided to record my reaction. Soon as this dumb thing uploads i’ll post it. I cried a bit. I literally cried. Yes I might be emotionally unstable but I got Ridley! I’ve been talking about playable Ridley since Planet GameCube!

[segagamersteph]

I am all for more characters and more levels or stages but I also want options to make the game playable more like previous versions and new modes.

I do not like the idea of changing the story where they are no longer toys, defeats the purpose of the whole series and diminishes the role of the Amiibo which if you think about it Nintendo should have been making since Smash 64 debuted.

If they add more 3rd party characters or echos of existing ones I would prefer Tales or Amy over Shadow or Metal Sonic.
Same with Mega Man I would prefer someone like Zero for a clone/echo or Dr. Wily over Proto Man.
I would still prefer more 1st party characters over 3rd party ones. I like the fan service of the games that's the only reason I play. Otherwise, I suck at them and hate the online super competitive scene.

[Caterkiller]

Well it took 60 years but Ridley is finally in the game. I went to my brothers place and just leaned my phone up against something to record our reaction. If Ridley was going to be in the game after all those rumors I want to relive the moment forever!

As you can see from my awesome DK tie I was dressed to impress at the tournament!