Post by: Patchkid15 on October 10, 2007, 10:18:51 AM
Well i am sad i was out the first day and do not know why i was targeted. But on the bright side I get to start the dead thread, and change its name everyday.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 10, 2007, 06:17:19 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on October 10, 2007, 06:50:29 PM
As for GP, c'mon, you didn't even try to defend yourself. How are we supposed to know that you're good if you don't even try?
At least two people playing the game are suckers. Really!
For the record, those roled townie players should have listened to me. You could all be together right now!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 10, 2007, 08:12:13 PM
Post by: wandering on October 11, 2007, 03:13:18 AM
Post by: Pale on October 12, 2007, 02:29:57 AM
Post by: that Baby guy on October 12, 2007, 10:02:47 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 12, 2007, 10:05:26 AM
Post by: 18 Days on October 12, 2007, 06:46:14 PM
Post by: decoyman on October 12, 2007, 06:51:51 PM
Post by: Darkheart on October 13, 2007, 01:08:51 AM
Post by: Darkheart on October 13, 2007, 01:25:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: 18 Days
You guys are a bunch of regular einsteins that's for sure. Yep yep let's vote out 18 Days, I mean afterall thatguy has a hunch because 18 Days voted for someone who got DOUBLE KILLED. Yep yep fantastic logic.
I was never for or against your vote and tried to calm the others down about it. . .
EDIT: Khush I hope my death story involves something Loony Jenkins would do :3
Post by: Athrun Zala on October 13, 2007, 05:03:57 AM
sorry darkheart, but you were acting way too suspicious... at least we know now who the rat was
Post by: decoyman on October 13, 2007, 07:12:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: decoyman
...
"I knew your father, Brisco. Damn shame what happened to him. He was a good man."
"A better man than me, Sheriff. Let's go to the saloon and have a drink, see if we can't figure this out."
...
HIDDEN CLUES FTW
Post by: decoyman on October 14, 2007, 08:29:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: 18 Days
You guys are a bunch of regular einsteins that's for sure. Yep yep let's vote out 18 Days, I mean afterall thatguy has a hunch because 18 Days voted for someone who got DOUBLE KILLED. Yep yep fantastic logic.
VEDETTA FROM POKEMAFIA
never forget
P.S. – This is the lamest dead thread EVAR. We need some Bop It, stat!
Post by: Dasmos on October 14, 2007, 03:20:58 PM
Post by: decoyman on October 15, 2007, 03:45:27 AM
Welcome to the dead thread, old friends. So sorry to see you.
blows a noisemaker
Post by: vudu on October 15, 2007, 09:34:10 AM
QuoteI've been asking for this for about seven games now. Still no luck convincing anyone else ....
Originally posted by: bustin98
It seemed to me that most of the action was going on with PMs.
Maybe next time no PMs? Won't that be interesting. . .
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 15, 2007, 10:54:00 AM
Post by: decoyman on October 15, 2007, 11:16:30 AM
Quote
How would you enforce no PM?
Honor system, I guess. Though the mafia would still need a way to plan out hits and all, wouldn't they?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 15, 2007, 11:17:36 AM
Post by: vudu on October 15, 2007, 11:53:01 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on October 15, 2007, 12:09:25 PM
Post by: Zach on October 15, 2007, 01:05:22 PM
Post by: Khushrenada on October 15, 2007, 01:12:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: vudu
Yeah, we would have to rely on the honor system. And it wouldn't just go for PMs--there wouldn't be any game talk allowed outside the designated threads--no MSN, no NWR chat, no phone calls, etc. Mafia would still be allowed to use PMs (obviously).
Why do you think it would make the game better?
Post by: ShyGuy on October 15, 2007, 01:23:19 PM
Post by: that Baby guy on October 15, 2007, 01:40:58 PM
As for a drop in discussion, it's from a few things. Me dying is the main one, but the second one is from a declining number of players at a regular rate. Less players means less to talk about, while there are a ton of players at the beginning, there's less at the end to do the talking.
Post by: vudu on October 15, 2007, 01:56:13 PM
Post by: Shift Key on October 15, 2007, 02:56:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShyGuy
I think the problem is after the first couple of days, the amount of discussion on the "mafia day #" thread drops off as people do their talking via PMs instead.
1. Townie disorganisation early on in the piece drives up communication rather than the converse
2. Distrust early on motivates more open communication
3. Fewer players requires less open conversation - you get a better picture of which people fit which roles so there is a tendency to discuss privately with those people you trust.
After you die, the game does lose its appeal. No arguments here. You only get to see the public side of things.
But removing PMs from the mix is not going to automatically move all conversation to the daily thread, as it will change the dynamic of the game significantly. The "who" part of the communication, rather than the actual content of the communication, is the critical part of this game. You can tell a lot about a person from 1-1 communication, and that goes a long way to making decisions in the game.
I'd be interested in giving a "No PMs" game try, even if its only to see that it works. I'll work on my coded messages in the meantime.
Post by: ShyGuy on October 15, 2007, 03:07:49 PM
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 15, 2007, 03:19:41 PM
The best part of this game I believe happens in PMs. It is where the Mafia can lie and trick townies. It is where townies can plot and scheme together, and it is where Mafia can figure out who will be the best townies to keep alive and use, and who need to be killed. Decoyman did a great job infiltrating the townies and had people believing him. If there is no means to screen test people that means PMs are not perfectly reliable.
It means whatever information you get from PMs need to be verified in the public forums, and then it gets real crazy and fun.
Finally, I believe that role playing is an underused but important aspect of Mafia, it is hard for some to role play, but the people that do role play and do communicate in the daily threads live longer, and that in and of itself is reason to keep communicating in the open.
This game proves to me that Mafia is not broken on the NWR boards, it just needs to be carefully balanced. I am planning to do a game in December...perhaps sooner, and I am trying to find new ideas to bring more character and story to the game.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 15, 2007, 03:27:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: vudu
What thatguy said. Although, I wholeheartedly disagree with him about the mafia and PMs. The whole point of the game is to see if a small, organized group can beat a large, unorganized one. If the mafia can't communicate with each other freely they aren't organized and then the game because statistically stacked in favor of the townies.
Look, if the townies can't speak to each other individually, privately, and secretly, then it is unrealistic for the mafia to be able to do the same. Is it supposed to be that the mafia gather at night? Because townies can, too, in that regard. A mafia can still be organized without being able to speak in private, believe it or not. Especially if they know who they are. It will be a challenge for the townies to be able to determine who is mafia, but also be a challenge for the mafia to be able to retain secrecy out in the open.
Let's be realistic, though. The only way the townies would be able to beat the mafia is if the townies become organized. The last two times, I've died because I was, or at least looked to be, a key to that organization, for the most part. I didn't send PM's that last time up until the end, but let's be honest, it wouldn't have happened if others hadn't sent me PM's themselves. What would be the point of the Investigator if he couldn't talk to the people he's investigated? How would the doctor know who to protect? How does an alliance form if you can't protect the truly integral members? Disallowing private messages for only townie players will defeat a chunk of the strategy needed to win. Since the mafia knows all the other mafia players, what extra strategy behind-the-scenes strategy is used behind that? As far as I can tell, the best use of PM's is to try to get townies to leak info. Beyond that, it can be used for advice, but isn't necessary for strategy, at least not nearly as necessary for strategy as these private talks with townies are. So at least, if townies take that huge blow, the mafia should take the same one, at least. Besides, if we're going for a semi-realistic simulation here, we'll want to allow the townies and the mafia the same standards. It's the only way to even approach a balanced game.
Post by: Khushrenada on October 15, 2007, 06:42:37 PM
I'll tell you why I don't believe the pm system is broken. In my first game, I was mafia and knew who my mafai buddies were. I barely talked to them except for the godfather. I workded hard to give my godfather all the info I had and all my thoughts on the game so that he could use that data with his and what I assumed would be his other mafia croonies. I didn't pm anyone else. I really didn't think I could or know what to say. I was still quite new on these boards. So, I would post a lot of my suspicions in the voting posts and why I thought people should vote for this person. As the game wore on though, I learned the value of a message. Some people started wising up that I was mafia and voted for me. Fortunately, one important townie believed me to be innocent and sent me a message saying so. Thanks to him, I was able to survive and worked hard to keep him from recognizing the truth before it was too late. But it paid off. The interesting thing is that neither of us really asked the other what their role was. We just took it that both of us were townies working for the same goal.
In the next game, I got some heat early but because of the game set-up, I knew everyone in all the mafias. So, I squealed in the day's voting threads of who to vote for. This caused a lot of attention and caused a lot of people to send me messages. From this, I was able to meet up with the townie's killer and send him names of people to hit from the other mafias. I also got a group of townies to form an alliance which I could control and use as a further weapon for the mafia. I was killed before I could do too much damage but I always thought it was so awesome that I had been able to get this force together in secret.
I tried something new the next game. In an effort to keep my voting patterns and gameplay from being predictable, I offered to give my vote to anyone who sent me a message of who to vote for. First come, first serve. Only two people took me up on the offer and I died soon before anything could come of the idea. I had hoped that if I offered my vote to anyone, even a mafia member, I would be allowed to live. But no.
Next game, Windyman starts naming who all is in a mafia. I question him in public but then we go to messaging one another for a bit. Convinced of what he says, I pursue the mafia. The mafia got wiped out in two days. I also use messages to others for favors in orfer to get people to vote my way. I offer to vote anyway they want next day, if they vote for this person this day. That seems to do the trick and a few people voted with me. I still got killed at the end of the second day but at least I did something.
Post by: Khushrenada on October 15, 2007, 06:44:01 PM
Hosted the next game. Never played. But I do know there was some heavy duty messaging between townies due to the nature of some of the roles created.
Next game. I'm mafia. Not really doing much talking except with my mafia mates. Suddenly, I'm exposed as mafia. I decide to fight. I post some counter-arguements in the voting thread. I also start giving out orders and strategy for the other mafia mate on how to survive without me. Deciding that posting in the thread isn't giving me much of a response, I decide to go for broke and contact the players and see what their thoughts are on the matter. People seem more willing to discuss the matter in private and I am able to convince enough people to listen to me that a tie is created in the voting thread. I survive the tie. Next day, my lie is exposed and everyone votes for me. But, I come up with another strategy. I threaten stevey to not vote for me or he will be hit in that night. It works. I then send out threats to everybody including my mafia mate so that they would all have a copy of the threat and no one person would be missing this item. After all, if everyone had a copy of the same threat but one person, who do you think the partner is? Game is won as people vote for stevey due to his not voting for me.
This game shows a lot of what can be done with a pm in a mafia game. You can post public arguements to help your case in a voting thread but often times, people aren't interested in them. But if you talk to them one on one and get them involved in the arguement, then you have a better chance of getting people to work with you. You can send misinformation. You can gather clues. One player, Ceric, told me he did not trust Decoyman, my mafia mate. I let Decoyman know this and he was able to fix the problem before it became an issue. The threat message was great because it kept the threat private so that people were unsure why stevey behaved the way he did. Due to this lack of knowledge to the private conversation, people only got the public view and it was this public knowledge that shaped their view of stevey. A lot was done in that game.
Post by: Khushrenada on October 15, 2007, 06:44:38 PM
Next game, I was townie. That was new and I wasn't sure how best to react this new position. I decided I wanted to just vote to keep the people I liked and other threats in the game alive. I also tried sending a few messages to some of these players to set up a little alliance to message our suspicions to back and forth. I also tried talking with a lot of the new players in an effort to hopefully see if I could get info from them by having them make a mistake in what they told me. I also hoped that by allying myself with a few people, if any were mafia, they would keep me alive in the hope that they could use me and my vote. Didn't work.
Next game, I messaged a couple people to vote for a person. Didn't have much info why but in the end, I was correct and took out a mafia member. Realizing I always seemd to die early, I took the steps of gathering all my info and sending it to one person I was sure would be innocent in the hopes that they could use it to continue my work and keep show the mafia that even thought they hit me, they wouldn't be albe to silence me since I made sure my work and suspicions and info didn't die with me.
Next game, I hosted.
Post by: Khushrenada on October 15, 2007, 06:44:57 PM
Next game was a case of similar messages. Thatguy asked for a copy of Spak's pm on a whim and the ball started rolling. It should be noted that although I have asked for people about their role in the past, the answer is generally townie, since no wants to say anything differently since that lie can be more easily exposed. Nor can I ever recall asking for a copy of someone's pm before. Maybe that comes from the fact that I was mafia many a time and appreciate that people never asked that of me. Sometimes they did but I would just generally copy the message I had recieved, remove my actual role and type in townie in its place as well as any other minor changes needed. That seemed to do the trick. But when confronted with instant results by asking for the direct qoute this game, I crumbled and just went with it. Another quick victory.
Last game, I decided to repent and cut down on my messaging as well not ask for quotes of roles. It worked at first. When Vudu cast a vote my way, I asked him privately why. I wanted a response and if you post things in the public thread, you often don't get one. But by doing it privately, youget results since it is much harder for a person to ignore that message without creating suspicion. I then tried putting in to action a plan to ally with the mafia in order to live. After my role was revealed and tweaked, I just decided to start playing hard and gather an alliance with other known townies. As well, due to the reveal, I was contacted by some townies. That snowballed into a large townie alliance that I later had to destroy. Mashiro wanted to quit that game but I sent him a message telling him, I wasn't going to let him off the hook. I told him even if you don't want to play, at least vote for who I tell you since you aren't going to use the vote yourself. It worked and I gained an extra vote that could be cast against anyone I wanted. Interestingly, Mahiro said he had more fun once I contacted him than before. The power of a pm and how it increases the enjoyment of the game.
I do think though that the problem of messaging has become the demanding of roles. Shift Key posted an example of what Darkheart sent. If I was playing and someone sent me that message, I would take them to town and would not reveal my role even if I was on their side. Maybe it was my mafia upbringing but you have to remember, if you were on the other side, you wouldn't appreciate someone coming and demanding your role. It makes it much harder to decieve. Decoyman showed it could still be done and was smart to ask for a fake pm on Day 1. That helped his credability. But I think quotes of peoples roles should be banned. If someone says they are this role, you should just have to take their word on it. That's how it was before. I also say that there is a lot that can be done with messages even by the mafia. If you can't message people, the mafia can not contact townies and decieve them. You hurt all sides. A mafia does not win just by talking to its own members. It wins by talking to the people outside and keeping them off balance.
I don't think taking away messages will help. I just think one of the abilities by messages should be taken away. That of role-quoting or role demanding. But there's so much that can be done with messages. New uses are still be created.
As for screen-caps, I've never bothered with them. In my first game, a fake screen capture went around showing that Unclebob had the suicide bomber role. He didn't and from that game, I've always realized screen captures could be faked so I never listened to them. But, I guess other people give them wieght.
Post by: Khushrenada on October 15, 2007, 06:46:30 PM
Post by: Shift Key on October 15, 2007, 06:50:50 PM
Hahaha, that game was fun. Depending on the time in the match, I was either the doctor, the investigator or the saloon girl. It was hilarious.
PS Thanks for the spelling mistake in my role message Khush, it really threw a lot of people who didn't know whether "gauys" meant "gays" or "guys"
Post by: Khushrenada on October 15, 2007, 07:03:11 PM
Post by: Shift Key on October 15, 2007, 07:04:25 PM
Quote
Shift Key. You never told me you were so popular with the gauys. Saloon girl Sally you are.
Post by: that Baby guy on October 15, 2007, 07:52:29 PM
Something I'd like to see is for a roled player, someone akin to the Investigator, to reveal himself immediately on day one, and though he would die if no doctor were present, all of the rest of the major townies would be able to locate each other. This is similar to what I tried on day two, but there were issues with trust, both in the "group," and out of it.
As far as the votes go, I've never voted out someone who was worse than a townie on day one, though I've been in games where this has happened like this one. I've used strategies similar to Khush's where as a townie, I would organize and force a vote on a player. If he or she had a role, that player would live and be part of the alliance. If he or she didn't then odds were that player would die that day. It worked pretty well, but took a lot of Day 1 work.
As mafia, I think one of the funnier tricks to pull would be to fake an accident, and send a PM to a townie player. Then, after you die, the townies would go after players mentioned in the PM, and after that, the townies would go after the player who posted the message, allowing a two-for-one, but with nightly kills, it would be five-for-one, hopefully. It seems like it would be valuable in the late game to finish things up. Spak inspired that one, after sending me two PM's on accident a few games ago. We thought he was lying in one.
I also admit that if I know I'm dying, I like to make a ruckus. For instance, in this past game, I knew that if I tried hard enough, I could either look like I was going to have the doctor's protection, or I could just try to draw both hits. I decided I'd do whatever it would take to get both but to unite the townies, which didn't work. I pointed fingers at a player who seemed fit to point fingers at, but I had no idea about his affiliation, 18 Days. I knew he didn't have a townie role, because I knew he would have done something a little more if he had, but I knew that if I said he was mafia if I died, at least one of the two killing parties would hit me, since he couldn't be in both. I also knew that if both hit me, he wouldn't be in either, for cover reasons. Unfortunately, the player I relayed this to was a mafia player, and no one else important had followed my rules for me sending a PM that day, aside from Vudu, who wasn't trusting for my reasons. Of course, I also said to this player to go to Pale if I died, and Pale was killed the next night, so personally, in this game, I take responsibility for GP's death, my death (twice!), 18 days's death, and Pale's death. I call that a moral victory, in the least, since it was great to see all that happen in direct response to what I said and did.
Also, one of these days, I'm going to trick a host, asking for a player's message, and not a role's message as a fake. It'll be fun. Watch out for that, future hosts.
Anyways, onto the next mafia. Pretty soon, or at least, in the future, Khush and I will be dual-hosting a mafia, which has a great theme and should be pretty exciting, we think. It's been awhile since we've talked about it, but there's some great ideas that have been laid out. I don't know if we'll be next or not, I don't know what and when anyone else is planning anything, but keep your eyes peeled, anyways. We're going to take some serious time out to think through how everything will work and we plan to try to create a very balanced game, role-wise. If you enjoyed this game, you should enjoy what we're planning out, too.
Post by: Darkheart on October 16, 2007, 12:24:37 AM
Post by: Shift Key on October 16, 2007, 01:19:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: darkheart
I am surprised no one caught Zach's fake pm. . . the townies had already been deceived by decoyman who did the exact same thing. . .
We already knew who the remaining townies were from investigations.
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 16, 2007, 01:39:24 AM
Khush this is exactly what I did to Dark Heart. He asked for my PM and I knew 3 of the most important roles for the townies. Doctor, Saloon Girl (Who basically has the power of 3 votes. his, Changing 1 from someone, Switching that vote to another.) He never provided me his because it was "deleted." It sounded like a horrible Mafia plot, and his list of people that were safe had to include Mafia in it...and his people that weren't safe included the 3 people with the most important townie roles. I fought back hard against Dark Heart...mocking him to try to get the mafia to go after me, because I was convinced.
I convinced Athun Zala that it was too dangerous move to just trust Dark Heart with your PMs, because he could find all the regular townie roles and then the Mafia would know who the special townie roles are. So Bustin, ShyGuy, and Dark Heart are townies...I bet that leaves Spak-Spang, Shift Key, and Crimm as Investigator, Saloon Girl, and Doctor. Dark Heart was dead from the beginning after he did that, and it was exposed that he had 2 mafia members in his alliance...if I would have sided with them and trusted those results we would have been dead.
I think the biggest surprise I had with the game is that despite me being a dick the entire game. Being really boss and making bad decisions key townies still trusted me...but worse, I was being a dick to Mafia and later the killer trying to lure attacks on me for the Doctor to prevent, but no one ever took the bait. It became frustrating, because I expected to die every night, or prevent a kill and each day more and more people died.
Finally, about PMs. This was my first real game I sent Pms to people and talked to them instead of just me running to thatguy or Khush. It made the game more fun. I was on the inside, instead of the outside, but it was still a learning experience and I made lots of mistakes...thankfully those mistakes did not equal a loss for team Townie.
Post by: Shift Key on October 16, 2007, 02:21:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Finally, about PMs. This was my first real game I sent Pms to people and talked to them instead of just me running to thatguy or Khush. It made the game more fun. I was on the inside, instead of the outside, but it was still a learning experience and I made lots of mistakes...thankfully those mistakes did not equal a loss for team Townie.
Just think: If you, me and Crimm didn't team up, the townie alliance would have the only alliance and would have handed the mafia the win. Kudos to you and your investigative skills (and some luck of course).
Quote
just so you know, spak is saying you're the doctor. but you told me you are the saloon girl. Who's right?
If spak is wrong then I think I know who to vote for next...
Can't believe my massive lie got us out of that trouble.
Quote
Spak is right. We have been working together to protect eachother which involved swapping roles.
And that doesn't even make sense. But thanks to bustin for going along with the charade!
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 16, 2007, 03:27:20 AM
The original plan was to have people vote for Shift Key thinking he was the Doctor and have the Doctor protect him. I was too paranoid with my PMs and thought I drew more attention than anyone else...but in the end I was never targeted at least not successfully.
Post by: stevey on October 16, 2007, 10:11:18 AM
Quote
I think the biggest surprise I had with the game is that despite me being a dick the entire game. Being really boss and making bad decisions key townies still trusted me...but worse, I was being a dick to Mafia and later the killer trying to lure attacks on me for the Doctor to prevent, but no one ever took the bait. It became frustrating, because I expected to die every night, or prevent a kill and each day more and more people died.
Don't worry, I kill you day 1 next time for treating me as a fool and then as a complete idiot
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 17, 2007, 07:25:09 AM
