Community Forums => General Chat => Topic started by: ejamer on July 10, 2020, 12:50:00 PM
Title: For all the Karens
Post by: ejamer on July 10, 2020, 12:50:00 PM
I have some friends named Karen, and they are all good people.
It's really disappointing to have that name be used in general lexicon to mean a stupid or self-entitled person. We (as a society) have realized this with other labels that could be hurtful, and have stopped using them. Why do we suddenly think it's ok to just misappropriate an actual name this way?
So I beg you all, if someone is being a self-entitled moron then call them a self-entitled moron. Break the cycle of hurt that all innocent Karens are currently suffering from.
Thanks, that's my mini-rant of the day.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 10, 2020, 01:34:08 PM
But San Francisco just names a new law after then. The CAREN Act, making it a hate crime to file a racially motivated false police report.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: Adrock on July 10, 2020, 04:10:33 PM
We (as a society) have realized this with other labels that could be hurtful, and have stopped using them.
The difference is those problematic labels (such as a certain N-word with a hard-R) were created and used specifically to denigrate and devalue entire groups of people, particularly for things they can't change about themselves. "Karen" as a pejorative targets behavior which a person can absolutely change.
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Why do we suddenly think it's ok to just misappropriate an actual name this way?
At least partially because it's aimed up, not down. It's mocking the oppressor rather than the oppressed.
Personally, I don't conflate actual slurs with "Karen" as a pejorative. First, you can say one out loud in public without getting looks of horror in your direction. Second, it's universally understood that "Karen" as a pejorative is shorthand for a specific type of entitled, privileged behavior, not every person named Karen whereas slurs are used as a blanket term to disparage and often unfairly assign negative traits to a group of people.
I have seen someone named Karen modify and repurpose a Mean Girls quote: "I'm not like a regular Karen; I'm a cool Karen."
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: Ian Sane on July 10, 2020, 06:15:04 PM
If "Ian" became a slang word to describe somebody in a negative way I would be pretty upset about it. Think about it with your own name and see how you feel about it.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 10, 2020, 07:16:11 PM
Lol
I wonder how all the Marks out there feel. Just tell your friend Karen's that they are one of the good ones 😉 (And that the "slang" isn't directed at them personally)
Not gonna gonna say it's right that it's happening, or that I don't know what it feels like to have a name/word used to cast you in a negative light.... it's just that this so microscopic in comparison to the discrimination it's being compared against that I just have too many other things on my plate to be worried about right now.
Those actually named Karen should probably just remind everyone that they are named Karen and are not "a Karen" as there is a difference.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: ejamer on July 10, 2020, 11:52:33 PM
We (as a society) have realized this with other labels that could be hurtful, and have stopped using them.
The difference is those problematic labels (such as a certain N-word with a hard-R) were created and used specifically to denigrate and devalue entire groups of people, particularly for things they can't change about themselves. "Karen" as a pejorative targets behavior which a person can absolutely change.
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Why do we suddenly think it's ok to just misappropriate an actual name this way?
At least partially because it's aimed up, not down. It's mocking the oppressor rather than the oppressed.
Personally, I don't conflate actual slurs with "Karen" as a pejorative. First, you can say one out loud in public without getting looks of horror in your direction. Second, it's universally understood that "Karen" as a pejorative is shorthand for a specific type of entitled, privileged behavior, not every person named Karen whereas slurs are used as a blanket term to disparage and often unfairly assign negative traits to a group of people.
I have seen someone named Karen modify and repurpose a Mean Girls quote: "I'm not like a regular Karen; I'm a cool Karen."
First let me say I'm not sure this is really such a huge deal, and I'm also not expecting people to change because of anything I post here. I get where this came from, and how/why it's a thing. Names come and go, sometimes because of negative associations that are created for whatever reason, and perhaps it's just time for the name Karen to fade out for a while.
However, I'm not on board with your logic.
Saying that using a specific name as a pejorative is ok because there isn't a previously established social norm to discourage people from using it seems less reasonable than stopping to think about whether people are negatively affected and then adjusting your behavior and vocabulary if necessary.
Saying that a specific name is universally understood to have a negative meaning about a group of people, but that the group of people whose name is that specific word won't be affected by (mis)use of that pejorative seems very much like an "I'm not affected, so I'm not going to care" attitude.
Finally, the fact you have already seen people who feel a need to create disclaimers about their given name to qualify what kind of person they are seems pretty ridiculous, doesn't it?
Pretty sure that we can do better without much effort. (Even though I'm pretty sure that people in general won't make that effort.)
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: Adrock on July 11, 2020, 04:45:01 AM
Think about it with your own name and see how you feel about it.
This sounds like tu quoque. I'm not sure if you were addressing me specifically, but sure, I'll play along.
I'd be fine with it. If my name was used as a pejorative, it likely wouldn't be referring to me specifically. If it somehow was referring to me specifically, the assertion about me is either false and I don't care as long as I'm not going to jail, or I did something to become so infamous. Then, I'd have to look myself in the mirror and think, "Well, maybe I shouldn't have punched all those dolphins..." or whatever I apparently did in this hypothetical scenario that resulted in my name being used in a negative light. Others using my very generic name as a pejorative either wouldn't concern me or I would have to take responsibility for and reflect on my actions.
This is just one man's opinion. I can't speak for anyone else. If it bothers you, I'm not going to debate that. However, I'm not going to take something as a personal attack when it isn't. I have too many things to worry about to let that, of all things, bother me.
And you don't have to be though you've misrepresented things I said which I don't believe is fair.
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Saying that using a specific name as a pejorative is ok because there isn't a previously established social norm to discourage people from using it seems less reasonable than stopping to think about whether people are negatively affected and then adjusting your behavior and vocabulary if necessary.
First, whether or not its "okay" is not for me to decide. I merely attempted to answer a question I understood to not be rhetorical. Was I mistaken? You tell me.
Second, and more importantly, I didn't say nor imply that "using a specific name as a pejorative is ok because there isn't a previously established social norm to discourage people from using it". That's a straight up strawman.
Third, and since you brought it up, I have thought about this, read articles about it, and discussed it with friends and colleagues. One such article is this opinion piece written by a black woman named Karen (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/28/karen-memes-jokes-arent-sexist-or-racist-let-karen-explain/?arc404=true) which did help shape some of the conversations I had regarding the use of "Karen" as a pejorative/meme. To be clear, I don't expect you to read or agree with it; I'm only pointing out that I found her point of view on the subject in the article and related tweets to be useful.
Fourth, if you're not going to address what I actually wrote in my previous post, I don't have much more to add. I don't want to spend my time replying to counterpoints you made of arguments I didn't make.
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Saying that a specific name is universally understood to have a negative meaning about a group of people, but that the group of people whose name is that specific word won't be affected by (mis)use of that pejorative seems very much like an "I'm not affected, so I'm not going to care" attitude.
Again, I didn't say nor imply that.
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Finally, the fact you have already seen people who feel a need to create disclaimers about their given name to qualify what kind of person they are seems pretty ridiculous, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't. It wasn't a disclaimer literally at all; it was a joke/amended movie quote someone named Karen made. Contextually, that's the beginning and end of it. At this point, I can't tell if you're serious or merely playing devil's advocate.
Regardless, I don't really want to get roped into a big thing regarding this. I'm going to take my own advice from the other thread and accept that I'm not going to get through to you especially since you have already resorted to strawmen. The only reason I replied is because I didn't appreciate your egregious misrepresentation of my post nor the condescending tone of your reply.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: Shaymin on July 11, 2020, 07:25:04 AM
Having your first name dragged through the mud sucks, I agree.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: ejamer on July 11, 2020, 08:20:08 AM
... At this point, I can't tell if you're serious or merely playing devil's advocate. ...
Largely the second, and doing a very poor job at that.
You're also right that I mischaracterized* what you had said earlier. Our opinions still don't line up, which is ok, but had missed most (nearly all) of your point and should apologize about that. Thanks for typing out a reasonable response that might not have been deserved.
*Could probably use strongly language here. I'm erring in my favor. ;)
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: Kairon on July 11, 2020, 02:31:40 PM
One such article is this opinion piece written by a black woman named Karen (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/28/karen-memes-jokes-arent-sexist-or-racist-let-karen-explain/?arc404=true) which did help shape some of the conversations I had regarding the use of "Karen" as a pejorative/meme.
Thank you so much for this link!
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: nickmitch on July 11, 2020, 02:57:16 PM
Or people named John. Or this one guy I know, Trick Daddy, who must feel awkward every time someone mentions "turning tricks".
Or certain women named "Rebecca".
I just realized you could go pretty far back to Jezebel.
Which has the historical consequence of people not naming their kids Jezebel for thousands of years.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: Wanderlei on July 12, 2020, 12:38:16 AM
I completely agree with OP. The thing you have to understand is that the social justice types that defend it are massive hypocrites. If they got the same pat on the back for shouting down people using karen as a slur like they do against other slurs, they absolutely would be denouncing it. But its the opposite, its popular for them to call people karen online so they do it. Much of what they do is not true conviction or belief its more rooted in social media dopamine hit from likes/clicks, etc.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 12, 2020, 12:53:44 AM
I completely agree with OP. The thing you have to understand is that the social justice types that defend it are massive hypocrites. If they got the same pat on the back for shouting down people using karen as a slur like they do against other slurs, they absolutely would be denouncing it. But its the opposite, its popular for them to call people karen online so they do it. Much of what they do is not true conviction or belief its more rooted in social media dopamine hit from likes/clicks, etc.
You complain about people using an insult and in the process you call a huge group of people hypocrites based on an entirely hypothetical situation you invented, then assert without evidence that those people don’t actually believe in their cause.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: nickmitch on July 12, 2020, 01:18:33 AM
I completely agree with OP. The thing you have to understand is that the social justice types that defend it are massive hypocrites. If they got the same pat on the back for shouting down people using karen as a slur like they do against other slurs, they absolutely would be denouncing it. But its the opposite, its popular for them to call people karen online so they do it. Much of what they do is not true conviction or belief its more rooted in social media dopamine hit from likes/clicks, etc.
You complain about people using an insult and in the process you call a huge group of people hypocrites based on an entirely hypothetical situation you invented, then assert without evidence that those people don’t actually believe in their cause.
It's almost like the "social justice types" don't see Karen as a "slur". . .
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: Wanderlei on July 12, 2020, 07:48:06 AM
Imagine that nothing but hypocritical self justification. Putting people down for something they had no choice over the only difference being what plays better for likes on social media.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: BeautifulShy on July 12, 2020, 01:07:58 PM
Imagine that nothing but hypocritical self justification. Putting people down for something they had no choice over the only difference being what plays better for likes on social media.
I am trying to understand where you are coming from with your thinking so bear with me...
Are you saying that social justice types are just calling people out on their behavior just to get likes and clicks on social media while at the same time not holding themselves accountable for things they themselves are doing?
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 12, 2020, 06:11:53 PM
Imagine that nothing but hypocritical self justification. Putting people down for something they had no choice over the only difference being what plays better for likes on social media.
The Karen name is based entirely on behavior the person had a choice over. It's not judging people based on something intrinsic, it's judging them based on their actions.
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: stevey on July 14, 2020, 02:25:04 AM
Having your first name dragged through the Mudd sucks, I agree.
:faust:
I just got it!
Title: Re: For all the Karens
Post by: ThePerm on July 17, 2020, 05:13:10 PM
I have a friend named Karen and she is a really nice person. If you're going to have slur words they can't be regular peoples names.
The only reason we're calling people a Karen is because C*nt became too sensitive a word. It has the same use. You're using a regular ass names now because you're cancelling words.
Shrew is not sensitive at all and nice and old timey. If you add "fucking" in front then it sounds modernly harsh. "You fucking shrew! Mind your own fucking business"
