Topic: Game Journalism

[Kairon]

3rd Parties will not, cannot escape responsibility and accountability while the Wall of Shame stands.

Well, I will admit that it's hard to argue with "the wall."

Maybe a more objective measure might be what Gamestop would be willing to pay if you traded all these games in.

Cursed Mountain is worth $3 trade-in value at GameStop =|

Well then SCREW objectivity.

[King of Twitch]

I think what Ningurl is trying to say is that, sure, we own the good games and are happy with them; but picture yourself as a soccer mom with a red cart and bag of popcorn at Target facing that wall in the game aisle.

How can she/you possibly choose a quality title? After making a couple wrong and expensive choices, aren't you going to be a tad disenchanted with gaming in general and stick to only buying games with good word of mouth?

[Stratos]

"All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall."

[Chozo Ghost]

"All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall."

"We don't need no casual frustration
We don't need no waggle control
No on-rails boom doom in the games room
3rd parties leave them kids alone
Hey! 3rd parties! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in Pro's wall
All in all you're just another brick in Pro's wall"

[Stratos]

That was actually very similar to what I had going through my head. LOL

We have a Thread Theme Song.

[noname2200]

Wow. Activision's list is pretty terrible. I don't own any of those, but there are a few that I have interest in. The 007 game, for one.

No you don't. Believe me, no you don't.
 

Pro's talking about brand mistrust and why your discerning Wii gamer will stick to Nintendo.  If he made a "Nintendo Wall of Glory" You'd see most of their games aren't "garbage" even when they are low budget.  Nintendo's games aren't "90% crap."  Some may not be your cup of tea, but none of them were foisted onto Wii owners like "Space Camp" or another Wii Sports ripoff as late as October 2009.

I believe someone else pointed this out already, but to really compare we must see those companies' output on the HD twins as well. I'm fairly certain that the list would be much more flattering, but then I didn't know 80% of the listed games even existed, so I'm not exactly qualified to judge.

[Deguello]

Why would a discerning Wii gamer care about the games they make for consoles they do not own?

This thread is 100% about Third parties and Wii, why their complaints about low sales and whiny excuse-making are such a farce due to the evidence of their flooding of the Wii's game shelves with some of the worst games they've ever made.

To compete against Nintendo, as is the third parties charge and our expectations of them, they must meet head-on in the field of development battle.  They complain of low sales for their barely-advertised core-esque spinoffs.  Pro shows the reasons why customers and gamers alike stick to Nintendo is because the third parties have tarnished their own image in shovelware, eager for a quick buck, and are looking for somebody to blame when those hoodwinked and angry customers come home to roost.

The fact that some of their better games are on other consoles is precisely the point.  They'd get better sales if they made better games from the start.  But to the largest audience, they've said "Here, pay us $50 for an inferior version of a game you got for free with your console."  They've said "Do you like minigames?  Have 3 titles from each of us."

They've treated Wii owners like schmucks, marks, fools, idiots, and lab rats.  When the Wii owners plead "no mas," "non plus," and "dame yo!"  they kept on churning out shovelware.  When the retailers (Target, Wal-mart, etc.) told them after 3 years that minigame collections and casual Wii games do not sell (!!!) and that they would order no more, the third parties were looking for an excuse.  They scrambled for ass-cover as they blamed you, me, Nintendo, the economy, Martians, etc.  They accuse Nintendo of making too many games.  They accuse Nintendo of not making enough games.  They accuse you of being a blind Nintendo fanboy for having the audacity to choose New Super Mario Brothers Wii over Dancing with the Stars.  All because their plan of "milking casuals" with a bunch of awful games backfired when the people they thought were idiots proved otherwise.

No longer.  Everytime a third party game fails on Wii, they shall look to the wall and wonder "Could things have been different?  Could I have made good games instead of shovelware?  Could my name be trusted by 70 million people if I didn't insult them from day one?  Could my game have sold better if my brandname wasn't tarnished by my own actions?  Why doesn't Nintendo have my problems?"

And ask yourself one final question.  "Who deserves to sell the most Wii games?"  The answer to that is the point of this thread.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Why would a discerning Wii gamer care about the games they make for consoles they do not own?

This thread is 100% about Third parties and Wii, why their complaints about low sales and whiny excuse-making are such a farce due to the evidence of their flooding of the Wii's game shelves with some of the worst games they've ever made.

That is exactly why we would also look at their output on the HD twinz. They complain about not getting sales on Wii and release a bunch of garbage. But what are they releasing on the HD consoles that aren't making their way to the Wii and vice versa? I don't hear anyone complaining about games bombing on the HD consoles, they just quietly pack up their stuff and close up shop.

A direct comparison of releases on Wii vs PS360 will paint a very clear picture of what 3rd parties think of each audience and possibly even illustrate the difference in quality and effort put towards one group and not the other.


edit: I know EA is up next and I have no idea how their their individual portion of the wall is gonna look, but THQ has to be next after that.

[Mop it up]

My question is, would it be possible to turn things around from here? After over three years of this, it would seem many companies have built up quite a bit of consumer mistrust. If third-parties halted development of the dreck and started producing mostly quality titles (including some of the franchises they release on other systems), would the general game-buying public take notice? Is it now too late? Would it even be worth it for third-parties to attempt such a dramatic switch when a majority of their games already sell fine on other systems?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Anything is possible. There are lots of 3rd party games still selling, so it's just a matter of clearing the filth of the shelf and letting the good games be shine.

[broodwars]

My question is, would it be possible to turn things around from here? After over three years of this, it would seem many companies have built up quite a bit of consumer mistrust. If third-parties halted development of the dreck and started producing mostly quality titles (including some of the franchises they release on other systems), would the general game-buying public take notice? Is it now too late? Would it even be worth it for third-parties to attempt such a dramatic switch when a majority of their games already sell fine on other systems?

I'm not sure at this point.  While big 3rd party games might not find the audience on the HD consoles that they might find on Wii if the damn expanded audience would do the slightest bit of research and expand their horizons, for the most part I've seen good games sell reasonably well there and bad games do not.  There are flukes like Valkyria Chronicles that get tossed out there and are tragically unloved, but for the most part quality seems to be ruling.

Contrast that with Wii, where sales are all over the map and the only thing that seems to get the expanded audience's attention is a massive marketing blitz the likes of which most HD games don't even seem to see.  After several years of largely being ignored by just about everyone, we core gamers on Wii are much pickier than we used to be as well.  Even if 3rd parties turn it all around and really consistently put out the AAA effort on Wii, it's a major gamble to put in those major marketing resources when there's a high likelyhood the game will be ignored.  By contrast, the HD console fanbases largely consist of gamers who know where to find their media and how, and it's probably much cheaper and easier to find an audience there and market directly to it.  It all comes down to the question "Is the gamble worth it when you know there's a huge payoff if you succeed on Wii and a massive flop if you don't?"  I honestly don't know.  I hope more companies are willing to take the gamble, but 3 years into the Wii's life cycle I have to wonder if they'd be better off trying to start fresh on Wii HD in a few years.

[Deguello]

I'm not sure at this point.  While big 3rd party games might not find the audience on the HD consoles that they might find on Wii if the damn expanded audience would do the slightest bit of research and expand their horizons, for the most part I've seen good games sell reasonably well there and bad games do not.  There are flukes like Valkyria Chronicles that get tossed out there and are tragically unloved, but for the most part quality seems to be ruling.

This paragraph is confusing but I think you're trying to say that quality games sell on HD where they don't on Wii.  But a lot of complaints are levied against against Nintendo because their games sell the most are overshadow third party "efforts."  Again, does Nintendo not make the best Wii games?  And thus, do they not deserve the best sales?  And because they get the best sales, doesn't that mean that quality games rule on the Wii when given the same kind of love and care Nintendo gives their games?

Contrast that with Wii, where sales are all over the map and the only thing that seems to get the expanded audience's attention is a massive marketing blitz the likes of which most HD games don't even seem to see.  After several years of largely being ignored by just about everyone, we core gamers on Wii are much pickier than we used to be as well.  Even if 3rd parties turn it all around and really consistently put out the AAA effort on Wii, it's a major gamble to put in those major marketing resources when there's a high likelyhood the game will be ignored.  By contrast, the HD console fanbases largely consist of gamers who know where to find their media and how, and it's probably much cheaper and easier to find an audience there and market directly to it.  It all comes down to the question "Is the gamble worth it when you know there's a huge payoff if you succeed on Wii and a massive flop if you don't?"  I honestly don't know.  I hope more companies are willing to take the gamble, but 3 years into the Wii's life cycle I have to wonder if they'd be better off trying to start fresh on Wii HD in a few years.

But sales aren't "all over the map."  They've bought the highest quality games on the system, Nintendo games.  And expanded audience gamers HAVE done their research.  They bought a few of the third party games at first and have "researched" that they blow ass.  Why should they commit the same mistake repeatedly?  It's not their fault, nor is it Nintendo, that third parties chose to shovelware up the joint and ruin their own names.  And of course Nintendo core gamers are pickier.  Nobody wants experiments or spinoffs in lieu of the actual product.  That's why they mostly buy Nintendo games.

It's not hard.  Nintendo makes the best games, they get the best sales.  If third parties made the best games, they might have at least many if not more sales.  But we'll never know because third parties fouled the pool.  And the "wii owners are fickle" talking point came from Capcom and EA and such when they saw that people weren't going to buy their 5th rail shooter in 1 year or their 100th Casual Party Minigame Collection.  So, blaming the Wii owner, they act put upon as if they worked hard to "try and focus o the Wii demographic" when they were still running on stale stereotypes from 2 years ago.

Wish they'd focus as much on their Wii games instead of talking about the behavior of Wii owners like it's their fault.

[Chozo Ghost]

Can the 3rd parties turn this around? Yeah. But are they going to? No. They've made it abundantly clear these last few years that they would rather go out of business than take any Nintendo console seriously.

[broodwars]

We've seen a fair share of Nintendo games, though, not exactly sell phenomenally.  Titles like Wario Land Shake It; Punch Out; Metroid Prime 3 Corruption: and the Metroid Prime Trilogy come to mind.  In Japan, neither Super Mario Galaxy nor Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess sold what Nintendo would have liked.  On the 3rd Party Side, we've seen titles like Zack & Wiki; A Boy & His Blob; Okami; No More Heroes; and (so far) seemingly Silent Hill: Shattered Memories fail to sell all that spectacularly, and all of them are at least decent games.  I'm (pleasantly) surprised we're even seeing No More Heroes 2.  Then you have the rail shooters, which have for the most part been excellent.  But oh, that's right...it doesn't matter if the games are any good because those weren't the games you wanted.  And two of those also apparently "don't matter" because they are ports of games from last generation, despite the fact that the Wii has a userbase the PS2 and GC could only have dreamed of that didn't own games last generation.  I'm starting to think that the Wii audience doesn't really know what they want.  I hear constant derision on these forums about all those AAA games on the HD consoles that people don't seem to want ("Brown Shading" comments, much?), yet also whining that 3rd parties aren't also bringing those titles to Wii.  Do you want them or don't you?

Contrasting those titles, we have stuff like Carnival Games; Wii Play (yes, I know people bought it for the remote.  It doesn't mean they needed to pay an extra $10 for the game while they were at it); both Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games titles; seemingly Wii Music (hush, you); and a whole bunch of random shovelware crap that creeps up on the low end of the NPDs from time to time.  Yeah, they buy largely Nintendo games, and for the most part that's justified.  But the expanded audience buys a lot of crap as well while ignoring many good games on Wii, which we are then expected to step in and absorb with our wallets.  But they are too many and we are too few.

[Ymeegod]

Actually some of those sholveware titles sell--Petz for one sold 1/2 million copies which is kind of sad.  And don't get my freaking started on that Ubisoft's Just Dance crap.

And nintendo's not exactally an saint--Music or those pesty Mario and Sonic games--bleh.  Both sold like hotcakes even though the reviews were quite negative.

Yeah, crap games sell on PS3 and Xbox too but usually they are movie tie-ins which always been a problem (Total Recall I'm looking at you).   But these systems have a much bigger hardcore following which prevents crappy games from selling to much.

If those crappy games didn't sell then the developers would stop making them but on the WII it seems like those crappy titles can easily outsell those more hardcore games. 

Either blame the parents or the retailers because this crap is SELLING.  It's the hardcore games that get pushed to the side.



3. 

[Kairon]

Wii Music will be one of the CROWNING ACHIEVEMENTS on Nintendo's Wall of Glory! Mark my words philistines! MARK MY WORDS!!!

[broodwars]

Wii Music will be one of the CROWNING ACHIEVEMENTS on Nintendo's Wall of Glory! Mark my words philistines! MARK MY WORDS!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Nintendo's concept with Wii Music was sound, and I found their ideals for it praiseworthy.  It just died in the implementation.  I'm quite open to seeing a Wii Music 2 if they get it right this time.

[Dasmos]

those pesty Mario and Sonic games--bleh.  Both sold like hotcakes even though the reviews were quite negative. 

Pesky?

Well obviously you didn't play either of them, both were great games. Also they weren't made by Nintendo at all, they were developed by Sega.

[NWR_insanolord]

But oh, that's right...it doesn't matter if the games are any good because those weren't the games you wanted.

You act like people should be expected to buy games that they don't want just because they're good. Whether you want a game or not is more important than whether it could be considered good. I'm sick of people deciding that because they think a game is bad then everyone else should as well and acting like it's some kind of tragedy that something they don't like is doing well.

[Kairon]

I'm not sure at this point.  While big 3rd party games might not find the audience on the HD consoles that they might find on Wii if the damn expanded audience would do the slightest bit of research and expand their horizons, for the most part I've seen good games sell reasonably well there and bad games do not.  There are flukes like Valkyria Chronicles that get tossed out there and are tragically unloved, but for the most part quality seems to be ruling.

Of course, quality might mean different things on different consoles and to different audiences.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Cheap games get sold..... old news.
Uninformed non-gaming enthusiast buying whatever sounds fun because it's likely at a discount..... old news.

Good games up on the shelves with tons of crap and the majority of the non-forum-using-non-gaming-enthusiast looking for a game having to shovel through all the ware without knowing what is what is the (not so)new problem.

No one is advertising the good games on Wii so those outside of the forums and outside the the gaming magazines have no idea which games to pick. All they ever see commercials for is whatever Nintendo advertises so of course when they go to buy something that is what's fresh on their mind.

I had a much longer post in my mind, but I've been bouncing back in forth between typing this post and watching TV(for 20+ minutes) so I have no idea what more I wanted to say at this point.
sorry if it's a little incoherent, maybe I'll fix/finish this thought later

[Ymeegod]

Nintendo leased out it's character and still had the finial say and both of those games ranked low 67% for one and 70% for the other.  There's better party games out there that should have recieved those sales.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Then they should have advertised them. We can't all expect to just know about a games existence and when it was released and that it was something that I was looking for.

[Kairon]

More and more, the Wii is convincing me that if you build a better mousetrap, the world WON'T beat a path to your door.

[Deguello]

We've seen a fair share of Nintendo games, though, not exactly sell phenomenally.  Titles like Wario Land Shake It; Punch Out; Metroid Prime 3 Corruption: and the Metroid Prime Trilogy come to mind.

Other than Wario Land and the special limited collector's edition of Metroid Prime Trilogy, those are Million sellers or close to it.  I'd hardly call them flops.

In Japan, neither Super Mario Galaxy nor Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess sold what Nintendo would have liked.

Mario Galaxy has outsold every PS360 game in Japan save one, and Zelda every game save about 10 or so.  They both have outsold the shovelware copycat Wii games by large margins.  I'm not sure what your point is.

The third party flops are a given for any generation and this one in particular because they thought they didn't need to market any of them.  Capcom fails on both Zack and Wiki and Okami mainly due to their absent marketing (Nintendo still markets their video games, yes, even "casual" ones.).  Zack and Wiki was advertised as an early childhood game and Okami wasn't advertised at all.  A Boy and his Blob is from Majesco, who's another violent shovelware offender, and with Zero marketing Who would think the game is quality.

Then you have the rail shooters, which have for the most part been excellent.  But oh, that's right...it doesn't matter if the games' any good because those weren't the games you wanted.

They're the games nobody wanted.  This is why they didn't sell very well, particularly in EA's case where they decided a few web banners was sufficient for their "massive undertaking" for Wii, despite the entire announcement for the game being a PR disaster and everybody basically hating the whole idea of the game from day one, no matter how decent a rail shooter it is.  And considering the actual proper Resident Evil game outsold both RE Rail shooter spinoffs, I think that's the one the consumers wanted more and apparently critics, too.

And two of those also apparently "don't matter" because they are ports of games from last generation, despite the fact that the Wii has a userbase the PS2 and GC could only have dreamed of that didn't own games last generation.

Rail shooters didn't sell on PS2 or GC either.

Contrasting those titles, we have stuff like Carnival Games

LOL I knew I was going to hear Carnival Games in this thread at one point (You'll also see it on Take 2's wall if Pro does Take 2)  IT's like the Go-to game for trying to imply the Wii userbase is a bunch of casuals, despite 67 million of the 70 million strong Wii userbase apprently doesn't want it.  It also being a budget $30 game from the middle of 2007 apparently doesn't matter either, nor does the fact that the Carnival games "Franchise" is a failure and most fo the games that rip this off (_____ Games) are also gigantic flops.

Wii Play (yes, I know people bought it for the remote.  It doesn't mean they needed to pay an extra $10 for the game while they were at it)

Well since you already know that Wii Play's value isn't really in the game itself, why don't third parties realize that when they knock it off and wonder why nobody's biting?

both Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games titles

Yeah I'm sure it's 100% casuals are the ones buying this.  Mario and Sonic being on the cover is a total coincidence and it's higher sales than the rest is a complete fluke too.

seemingly Wii Music (hush, you);

This game actually didn't do as well as you might think.  But even so, did it sell more than SSBB or Mario Galaxy or Zelda?  no.

and a whole bunch of random shovelware crap that creeps up on the low end of the NPDs from time to time.

So do any of them sell more than Mario Galaxy, Zelda, SSBB?  No.

But the expanded audience buys a lot of crap as well while ignoring many good games on Wii, which we are then expected to step in and absorb with our wallets.

Considering the sources of the few good games are also the source of the masses of shovelware, don't you think they are justified in being suspicious?

But they are too many and we are too few.

Yeah it's certainly a casual utopia on Wii.  that's why all these casual third party games in this thread are all major hits the likes of which even God has never seen.

EDIT: It's funny to see people try and apologize for the third parties in this thread and harp on games like Wii Play and Wii music when they aren't even in the same LEAGUE of crap that most of the third party games on the wall.  Again, a double standard.  Nintendo makes a game that's critically panned, shame on you.  Third parties make a game that's critically DEAD, Well that's just what sells (even though they really don't).  Not their fault, right?

Nobody has yet convinced anybody that Nintendo does not deserve the most sales on Wii.  Nobody has disputed that Nintendo has made the best games on Wii.  This is the whole point of the thread.