Topic: Comic Books

[Ceric]

I want to read this I'm just sort of low on cash for a while.

[KDR_11k]

A theory about the leather or whatever costumes I've read was that since Watchmen was a commentary on comic books, the movie is a commentary on superhero films so the costumes are made to resemble modern superhero flick costumes. People say only Rorschach and The Comedian are true to the book but from what I heard those are also the two characters that wouldn't adjust to changes since "back then" (Rorschach because he's old-fashioned and The Comedian because he's dead).

[Svevan]

So I finally read The Dark Knight Returns as recommended by ShyGuy (got it in the mail today and ate it up!) - I thought it was really good DRAMATICALLY, and I love having it on my shelf next to Watchmen (totally agree, Shy, about the connections between the two works), but I'm not sure I can get behind the implicit moralization of Batman in this story (similar to the film "The Dark Knight"). I think Miller's romanticization of the vigilante, and his moral equivocations about doing evil for the sake of doing good are all vaguely distasteful - is that what I'm supposed to feel? This is Batman after all, am I supposed to hate him as much as I did after reading this book? Sure I admire the guy (even love him), and can totally sympathize with his split personality, but in the end Batman seems to take a forgiving attitude towards The Sons of Batman and The Mutants, while completely dismissing the police and government for "failing" at their duty.

I recently watched a film that brought up similar thoughts called "The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp." It's a British film about a General who feels satisfied when the British womp the Germans after WWI because the British used "good honest soldiering" in the face of Germany's underhanded tactics. Yet he is forced to rethink his ideals by the end of the film (as WWII begins and "good honest soldiering" just isn't cutting it anymore), and though I might agree that new kinds of enemies = new kinds of warfare, I don't think calling something "supremely evil," over and above every other thing, justifies any and all forms of force. After all, isn't that what Hitler did? It seems every Batman story (all the films, plus this and Year One) start with a depiction of Gotham City as the single most terrible place EVER. Like, Fallujah or Beirut or something. The evil there is so overwhelming that normal crime-fighting just can't help, and "desperate measures" are called for. I have a friend who says he sympathizes more with Jack Nicholson's character in A Few Good Men every time he watches it. Personally, I get sick to my stomach every time he says that.

Let's tie this back to Watchmen, where Rorschach is perhaps given the status of hero, yet he is Batman-esque in his willingness to do violence for the "greater good." (He's also 100% less appealing as a character.) Yet at the end he REJECTS Veidt's plan to do violence against New York because for him TRUTH is far more important than convenience. Similar to modern debates we have about "enhanced interrogation" (and I say this just for reference, not to make a moral claim about the current debates on "torture" or to begin a discussion. I'm just saying it's related*).

*and more than a little interesting that Frank Miller (who wrote DKR, not Watchmen) supported the War in Iraq as a retaliatory action for 9/11 (I'M JUST SAYING!).

Also, as a final note, the trailer for Watchmen looks like total suck. I'll probably go see it opening weekend, but mang, it's really too bad it looks like 300 + Superheroes.

Rechristening this the generic Comic Books thread. In a little while I may bring up Scott McCloud, Maurice Sendak, Tintin, and some others. I'm on a comics kick right now, taking suggestions! I just bought Maus, am looking to dive into Daniel Clowes, some Chester Brown, some Osamu Tezuka (probably Buddha), some Dave Sim, Eisner, Satrapi, etc.

Also, Shy, after reading DKR, I really really really want to read the sequel. Can I please have your permission?

[ShyGuy]

The sequel is horrible and in someplaces totally contradicts the "moral of the story" from The Dark Knight. I think you should read Elektra Assassin instead. In my opinion it's Miller's third greatest work. You would like it because it has a a lot cold war politics in it and takes place around a presidential election. The artwork is fantastic as well.

Tintin is also a classic. In that vein, I would also recommend Carl Bark's Uncle Scrooge adventure stories. Steven Spielberg has admitted that he has borrowed from them.

Of course, I also heartily recommend additional Batman comics. Batman Year One. (which although written by Miller is very different in tone from TDK)
The Long Halloween, Batman: Gothic and Batman Year 100 are just a few others worth checking out.

[Khushrenada]

Superman: Red Son is one of the best Superman stories I've read in a long time.

[Athrun Zala]

read Tintin.

NOW

[Svevan]

read Tintin.

NOW

ha ha, don't worry! I read every single one when I was a kid. I'm just buying them now as an adult so I can share them with my nephew and (eventually) my kids.

[Svevan]

The sequel is horrible and in someplaces totally contradicts the "moral of the story" from The Dark Knight.

Okay....what would you say is the "moral" of Dark Knight Returns?

Thanks for the suggestions (Shy and everyone), I'll follow up on them as much as I can.

[ThePerm]

just finished reading Watchmen..now on to watch the movie

[Armak88]

I read the Watchmen a little while back, and have since been on a comic book tear. Alan Moore > Frank Miller, for sure. Right now I'm reading through the Neil Gaimen Sand Man books, and they are pretty good for the most part. If you liked DKR then I would suggest that you pick up Ronin, which is also by Frank Miller, which I enjoyed quite a bit... perhaps more than DKR.

To me, Miller is just too... I don't know, dark for the sake of being dark. It's always, "This city is a cesspool of **** and guts festering like a blister on the ass of hell..." That being said, he's still one of the better writers in the industry, I just don't find him as impressive as some people seem to think he is. His action sequences are pretty cool though, and there are definite moments of badassery.

Alan Moore is great. I don't think I've read anything of his that I didn't like. If you're patient with V for Vendetta is pays off, it's a great book. Chapter 5 (or V) alone is enough to justify the existence of the entire book. There's also the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen which is quite good, as well as the Swamp thing series, though I haven't yet read all of them.

Otherwise, I got into the Walking Dead, by Robert Kirkman, and if you like zombie's or zombie movies AT ALL you have to pick it up. The whole series is based on what happens after the zombie movie ends, the logistics of survival in the weeks, months and years afterward. It's quite good.

I think that's enough for now, if anyone wants to talk about any of the books in particular I'm down as well.

[ThePerm]

oh yeah i've been reading Walking Dead for the last two years..although..i kinda got out the loop when the big prison exile/genocide thing happened. I need to catch back up. Walking Dead is what got me back into comics.

Reading about the Black Freighter back story I found it kinda funny that there was discussion about writer and artist getting in quarrels. That is sort of what happened with Walking Dead. I thought the first several issues looked the best, but then they switched artists. The second artist however did take care to slowly change from the previous artists style to his own.

i have few rants here
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=22335.0

[Armak88]

Yeah, the first volume was the best illustrated, but I still like the new art. At least the characters look the same from issue to issue, one thing that bothers me about the Sand Man, is that there are so many different artists, and the sand man's appearance changes quite a bit depending on who's drawing him.

The Black Freighter story is obviously an analogy for the plot of the Watchmen itself, but who do you think the castaway is? Rorschack or Ozymandius?

[ThePerm]

well i had a tough time reading those parts..at times i wanted to skip them because they made little sense to me. Then when Berny the newstand man says to Berny the newstand reader "were not exactly close, we see each other everyday but your preoccupied reading those pirate comics" then the kid says "oh thats the thing , i have to keep re-reading them because i don't get them" I was like dammit..i really could have skipped reading those panels. When i finished reading the Watchmen they still didn't make sense.



i think despite that the book is going to be a tough translate i'm going to like the movie. Watching the trailers it just kinda looks like something fans of the book are going to like more than newcomers to the series through the movie. Lets see there are 34 pages a chapter, 12 chapters. In screen writing a page equals a minute of screen time, and its about true with graphic novels. Thats 408 minutes run time. Now subtract the black freighter story which will be put on its own dvd thats like subtracting 2 1/2 comics. Thats 85 pages. 408 - 85 = 323 minutes of runtime. Now subtract the "letters" pages. Theres about 4 per issue except 12 which doesnt have them thats 11 * 4 which is 44 . 323-44 = 279 minutes of run time. Now lets think issue 12 is little dialog, and the first half is all visuals, so cut that in half so 34/2 = 17 so 279-17 = 262 mins. Subract the cover page so 262-12 = 250 mins of run time. That's still 4 hours. Lets suppose i was wrong and that graphic novel doesnt translate into a minute of runtime like a script..maybe it translates into a 3/4 minute of runtime. Some panels are faster than others then thats 3.5 hours. forgot about the blood frames, thats 12 of them. 210 -12 = 198 mins. Snyder cut out the death of Hollis Mason..i think that was roughly 4 pages 194 mins

Now he trimmed the movie to 163 minutes

as much as i like the watchmen, its alot of dialog and little action...i'm expecting it to be critically  acclaimed but not movie goer appreciated

[IceCold]

The Black Freighter story is obviously an analogy for the plot of the Watchmen itself, but who do you think the castaway is? Rorschack or Ozymandius?

I've always thought it was Ozy..

[Stratos]

I've been curious in checking out the Watchmen comic since the movie is coming soon. I'll also try Dark Knight Returns. I just recently jumped back into comics with V for Vendetta and the new Star Wars ones. When I was young I really only checked out Star Wars comics since I was I nut, therefore I'm a bit uninformed about a number of the classics.

Has anyone seen or have any thoughts on the new comics focused on The Joker?

[Armak88]

The Black Freighter story is obviously an analogy for the plot of the Watchmen itself, but who do you think the castaway is? Rorschack or Ozymandias?

I've always thought it was Ozy..

I agree, but it could be interpreted either way. Ozymandias becomes a mass murderer to save the world, thus becoming the evil he once fought to destroy. Not to mention the image of the castaway escaping the island on the raft of his own dead crew is quite resounding. With Rorschack, he becomes enamoured with moral absolutism and becomes unflinchingly uncompromising, becoming alienated from the society he is trying to save who take him to be insane. Both characters represent two vantages on universal truth that are taken to their most extreme, the Black Freighter reflects the paradoxes that arise when each view is taken to such an extreme.

Universal Truth is really the key theme, and I think that there are four characters in the book who, as the Comedian says, "get the joke." The primary conflict is with Rorschack and Ozy, for the reasons above, but secondarily, I think that the Comedian and Dr. Manhattan also get it. They are not as prominent however, because the paradox drives Comedian mad and Dr. M doesn't care because he's more nihilist and less involved with the metaphysical questions of humanity.

[Spinnzilla]

lol, I was just showing somebody my mess of a Generation 1 Transformers comics.  I have about 60 or 70.

[Spak-Spang]

My favorite comic is Stan Sakai's Usagi Yojimbo.  It is whimsical Samarai Legend Fun.

[bustin98]

I have a letter printed in a Transformers comic. Its the one with the Predacons chasing down a boy on the cover. I don't remember the issue number at the moment.

[ShyGuy]

I recently picked up one of the tradepaperbacks for the new Iron Fist series. Ed Brubaker is a good writer and I am enjoying the story.

[NWR_insanolord]

I'm not much of a comic guy, but I've been interested in this new Star Trek comic, The Last Generation. It's a comic book about an alternate history in the Star Trek universe, and that may be the nerdiest thing that ever existed.

[Spak-Spang]

There was an interesting Dark Horse Star Wars book that took the original trilogy story and gave it an alternate ending...and changed other minor things about the story.

It was very interesting.  I think Han Solo never regained his vision from the Carbonite Freeze...and in the end, Darth Vader didn't die but became a Jedi, and then they continued the story for awhile. 

I really liked the decisions to change the story from the original movies, but felt the Darth Vader not dying was a bad story decision. 

[Stratos]

There was an interesting Dark Horse Star Wars book that took the original trilogy story and gave it an alternate ending...and changed other minor things about the story.

It was very interesting.  I think Han Solo never regained his vision from the Carbonite Freeze...and in the end, Darth Vader didn't die but became a Jedi, and then they continued the story for awhile. 

I really liked the decisions to change the story from the original movies, but felt the Darth Vader not dying was a bad story decision.

When did those come out? I never heard of them.

[UltimatePartyBear]

They're called Star Wars: Infinities, and there's actually a separate series for each movie in the original trinity.  They're only a few years old.

(I haven't read them.  I'm just a big enough Star Wars geek to know about them.)

[Khushrenada]

That was Return of the Jedi Infinities. I shouldn't know this so well offhand or have the individual issues of that story collected but I do. That was during the time I was really into Star Wars but not so much now. Anyways, I really liked the covers of that issue. My beef is this, with Vader living and changing sides and with the Emperor escaping, it didn't really conclude anything, did it?

As far as Infinities go, I really like the version of A New Hope. The difference is that unlike the other Infinities that have a twist early in the story, this one begins at the conclusion of A New Hope. In this version, Luke doesn't destroy the Death Star and it deals with what would happen in such a scenario. I enjoyed the ending but I don't want to give away any spoilers.

The Empire Strikes Back Infinities is alright but it unlike the others, it scales back as it goes on and ends in a small confrontation.

Now, if you want to read a really good story that is just set in the Star Wars universe but could fit any sci-fi universe, find one called "To The Last Man". It was a series Star Wars: Empire issues 16, 17, 18. Great story. It was collected in a trade Star Wars Empire Vol. 3 , if you can't find the individual issues. Even people who aren't Star Wars fans have agreed that it's a great story when I talk them into reading it. You may want to check it out.