Topic: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean

[Adrock]

The SNES controller was the best in its day, but it was never intended to have thumbsticks tacked onto it like Sony has done.

And yet, in 2006, Nintendo tacked analog sticks to a SNES Controller and released the Classic Controller. I don't want to sound like I'm defending the Dual Shock which is a crummy controller I begrudgingly got used to, but at least Sony had the sense to add extra shoulder buttons behind the existing ones, not next to them. It took Capcom, of all companies, to step in and fix the Classic Controller. Seriously, Capcom...

[Ian Sane]

If you've used one Dual Shock, you've used them all.

I think you ought to read the rest of my last post.
 

 So what is great or innovative about it? Nothing.

I don't really give a **** about a controller being innovative.  It's like the steering wheel of a car.  Do I care if my car has an innovative steering method or just one that works correctly?  Nintendo has been very innovative with their controllers and they've introduced more standards than anybody, but they've also let their creativity get in the way of functional design.
 
I will and have complained about the quality of Sony's controllers.  The problems are usually the mushy buttons, non-ergonomic design, and the general cheap feel they have.  My praise of the Dualshock 3 is probably partially clouded by sheer SHOCK at the fact that it doesn't suck.  But the general design of copying the SNES design is not a bad one.  There's nothing wrong with sticking with what works.  It is after all one of Nintendo's greatest designs in the first place.  Meanwhile last gen Nintendo made the most egronomic controller but fixed what was NEVER broken in the button layout and the result of was the least useable controller of last gen.  There is no really no reason to be cute or creative with controller design.  It's just a tool for controlling a videogame and should be designed for mass functionality.  Since the 3D era Nintendo has designed their controllers with only a very narrow view of game design in mind.  The SNES was the last time they seemed to be thinking about making something for ALL games, instead of just their own.
 
I don't expect Sony to be particularly talented at motion control though.  Yeah I think the Dualshock 3 is pretty good but why the hell did it take them until the third variation to get it right?  The improvements they've made should have been there with the first Dualshock.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The SNES controller was the best in its day, but it was never intended to have thumbsticks tacked onto it like Sony has done.

And yet, in 2006, Nintendo tacked analog sticks to a SNES Controller and released the Classic Controller. I don't want to sound like I'm defending the Dual Shock which is a crummy controller I begrudgingly got used to, but at least Sony had the sense to add extra shoulder buttons behind the existing ones, not next to them. It took Capcom, of all companies, to step in and fix the Classic Controller. Seriously, Capcom...

yeah, but I think the classic controller was designed the way it was to appeal to 3rd party publishers since that is basically the controller they have been working on for the past 10-11yrs.

CCpro was an olive branch to get MH3 exclusive. (But I understand your point)

What I'm really hoping for is a CCproXL for larger hands if the CCpro is the same size as the regular CC, and I don't even think my hands are all that large.

[broodwars]

Ian pretty much said all that needed to be said about the Dualshock 3, but to add on to that I will add that for my problems with the device (fragmented D-pad, mediocre motion control support, and loose-feeling L2/R2 triggers) it's still leagues better IMO than anything Nintendo's brought out this generation (so far.  I have high hopes for the Classic Controller Pro).  I'll never understand Nintendo's decision to give the Wiimote such microscopic buttons/D-pad; a cheap and almost completely nonfunctional speaker; and such a horrid button layout, as well as the flimsy analog sticks of the Classic Controller and lack of handles.

[Mop it up]

What's next, a Classic Controller attachment designed like the first PlayStation controller (without analogue and rumble)?

Why would they need one when the Dualshock 3 is already available and works just fine?

It can't attach to the motion controller.

[broodwars]

What's next, a Classic Controller attachment designed like the first PlayStation controller (without analogue and rumble)?

Why would they need one when the Dualshock 3 is already available and works just fine?

It can't attach to the motion controller.

Considering earlier reports on the motion controller threw out ideas like holding the motion controller in one hand and the Dualshock 3 in the other, I don't think it's a big technical hurdle for Sony to have a way to link the two together.  If they can't associate the two devices wirelessly, they could always attach via the USB port on the PS3 that the controller uses for charging.

[Mop it up]

They need to be attached with a cord so that when you play a multiplayer game, you can strangle the other player if they win. They don't want to lack a feature that Nintendo has.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Here is a problem with the Arc and possible wireless chuck.
what if you need to charge them both at the same time or all 4 (2player) at the same time.
how many charge cords does the PS3 support at once?

will there be some sort of daisy chain mini-usb connector that plugs from the chuck into the controller and the the controller into the system?

[broodwars]

Here is a problem with the Arc and possible wireless chuck.
what if you need to charge them both at the same time or all 4 (2player) at the same time.
how many charge cords does the PS3 support at once?

will there be some sort of daisy chain mini-usb connector that plugs from the chuck into the controller and the the controller into the system?

That depends on your PS3 model.  I think the new slims have 2 USB charging slots, but my 80GB PS3 supports 4 of them.  However, it is worth noting that the PS3 only comes with 1 charging cord, and new Dualshock 3s do not come with them.  To be fair, it is a standard issue USB cord, though.

[Stogi]

So how much is the controller (and sensor bar)?

[broodwars]

So how much is the controller (and sensor bar)?

You mean the motion controller?  No one knows yet.

[Chozo Ghost]

The SNES controller was the best in its day, but it was never intended to have thumbsticks tacked onto it like Sony has done.

And yet, in 2006, Nintendo tacked analog sticks to a SNES Controller and released the Classic Controller. I don't want to sound like I'm defending the Dual Shock which is a crummy controller I begrudgingly got used to, but at least Sony had the sense to add extra shoulder buttons behind the existing ones, not next to them. It took Capcom, of all companies, to step in and fix the Classic Controller. Seriously, Capcom...

I know. I hate the classic controller as well, for the exact same reasons that I hate the dualshock controller. I think it was a HUGE step backwards for Nintendo, because their Gamecube controller was almost perfect. I only have one or two minor gripes about the GC controller, and I felt it was the best controller of all three in the last gen... why in the world did Nintendo turn their backs on it?  They didn't need to design the classic controller when they could have just repackaged a wireless GC controller and had that become the CC.

[Peachylala]

The GC's controller layout isn't the greatest with ALOT of the SNES games. It's perfect with the N64 games because the GC's analog stick works wonders with controlling them.

[Ian Sane]

I think it was a HUGE step backwards for Nintendo, because their Gamecube controller was almost perfect. I only have one or two minor gripes about the GC controller, and I felt it was the best controller of all three in the last gen... why in the world did Nintendo turn their backs on it?

Well the Wii supports the Gamecube controller.  If you really want to use it for VC games then knock yourself out.  The current model is flexible.  The Cube controller has a worthless d-pad and an very inflexible button arrangement that would make it useless for any SNES game.  That right there could have made the difference in whether or not the VC was a success or not.  A big draw of that was the ability to play classic games like Super Metroid again.  **** up the controls and the appeal is gone.  The classic controller is mostly used for the VC and the aside from the N64, the controller is perfect for the games on it.

[Chozo Ghost]

I will agree the classic controller is better suited for SNES games, but in anything involving an analog stick the GC controller tops out. Nintendo seems to have let the D-pad atrophy in the GC controller, but I'm okay with that because I think its time has passed and might as well just be removed altogether. Its only valid use is for classic gaming, otherwise it just ends up being a way to change your weapons or something.

[Ian Sane]

Nintendo seems to have let the D-pad atrophy in the GC controller, but I'm okay with that because I think its time has passed and might as well just be removed altogether. Its only valid use is for classic gaming, otherwise it just ends up being a way to change your weapons or something.

And yet ironically the remote has a d-pad on it but no analog stick.  Games like NSMB Wii don't use the analog stick at all.  Hell, Nintendo originally didn't have plans for the nunchuk and made it based on feedback from Retro.  If they went with their original plan they would have been relying entirely on a d-pad.  If anything I think the d-pad has seen a revival.  Nintendo loves making us turn our remote sideways to use like an NES controller.  I love the analog stick but the d-pad is less complicated and I think Nintendo considers that a huge pro.  I think they don't give the mainstream enough credit and assume that everyone is way more helpless and confused than they really are.  But if simpler is the way to go then the d-pad is the way to go.
 
I don't like the idea of removing something because it's not used as much anymore.  That's just very short-sighted and restrictive.  The videogame industry has this really annoying problem of discouraging variety in game design.  Analog replaces digital, 3D replaces 2D.  Whole genres just disappear because they're not the big sellers anymore.  These days we have the problem where a lot of games have online multiplayer but no local multiplayer.  It's like we found this new technology that if used to compliment the old would expand gaming.  But instead we shrink it.  We trade one for the other.  But lately 2D on consoles is making a comeback and dormant genres like point-and-click adventures are being made again.  And the industry looks silly for jettisoning those in the first place.
 
I see this now with motion control.  Nintendo designed a controller so utterly different that it's pretty much worthless for anything not designed for it.  Thank God for the classic controller or they would have really restricted things.  It's funny that everyone accuses Sony and MS for just making the same shooters the whole time when Nintendo's console is the most restrictive console since the Virtual Boy.  The Wii's standard controller is incompatible with entire genres and generations of game design.  Nintendo stated with that controller that THIS type of game is what is to be made from now on and THIS type of game is not.  That offends me.
 
Gaming should grow outward not replace or remove.  We should have the absolute most genres we've ever had but instead it seems like we always have the same amount... or less.  And all three console makers are guilty of contributing to this.

[ThePerm]

the most ideal controller for me would be an xbox 360 controller with a gcn face button layout.

[Chozo Ghost]

Well Ian, we don't see too many joystick games these days anymore. 3rd party peripheral manufacturers still make joysticks for fighting games and the like, but its no longer a standard feature for any default controller, and hasn't been since the days of the Atari. The D-Pad effectively killed it off, because with the D-pad you have the same basic functionality, except you can do it with just one thumb instead of tying up your entire hand. This meant controllers could add in other buttons for more ways of controlling your character on-screen.

I think the thumbstick pretty much replaces both, though. Last night I was playing MK II and SF II on a friend's PS3 and I COULD control it the old school way with the D-pad (albeit Sony's crappy D-pad), but I quickly found the analog stick works just as well, and in fact even better.

So if the analog stick can handle traditional D-pad games just as well or even better than with the D-pad then why bother keeping the D-pad?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Look like Sony's electronics division is trying to patent something that looks unpatentable

Sony Files Patent For Universal Game Controller

There are universal TV remotes, so why not universal video game console controllers? Sony's recent patent filing indicates that could change.

The Sony patent, which was filed in August 2008 but appeared online on February 18 of this year, reads: "Just like remote controls, game consoles, and thus game controllers, are becoming widespread. It is not surprising to find more than one game consoles in a household, especially when competing game console manufacturers attempt to attract unconventional consumer groups in the gaming industry. As understood herein, it would be useful to have a universal controller that would be able to work with a variety of game consoles."

This controller would feature a touch sensitive liquid crystal display that would display various button layouts depending on the consoles. For example, a Nintendo console would pull up a Nintendo controller layout, a Microsoft console would pull up a Microsoft controller layout and a PlayStation console would pull up a PS controller layout.

The patent also notes that this controller will have a speaker and rumble. Though, this is interesting. From the patent: "This document describes an adaptable or universal game controller which can be used to emulate the controllers of popular game consoles, such as, without limitation, the PlayStation.TM. made by Sony, a controller made by Nintendo, X-box.TM. game controllers made by Microsoft, Amiga CD-32.TM. controllers, Atari Jaguar.TM. controllers, Gravis Gamepad.TM. controllers, Sega controllers, and Turbographics controllers, one or more of which terms may be subject to trademark protection. For ease of exposition trademark symbols will not be further used herein."

Those consoles are all old. Is the PS3 getting a proper virtual console and an actual universal controller to go with it?

Actual Patent: http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...DN/20100041480

[Ian Sane]

So if the analog stick can handle traditional D-pad games just as well or even better than with the D-pad then why bother keeping the D-pad?

I consider that a big "if".  Joystick to d-pad is digital to digital.  On/off precision.  An analog stick is not on/off.  That's actually the whole point and the whole appeal.  It provides more than just on/off.  But because of that it is also less precise.  In some situations that is acceptable but in others it strongly affects the controls and thus the enjoyment of the game.  The transition wasn't as smooth for a reason: because it was replacing apples with oranges instead of apples with apples.
 
We see the same thing with motion control.  Many games map what would previously have been a button press to a gesture.  A gesture can interpret so much more than a button press so it must be better, right?  Well it's not because it can interpret so much more that it's less precise for when you want on/off precision.  Motion control is beneficial when it makes use of its ability to interpret more.  Same with the analog stick.  But both fall short when that extra functionality isn't needed.  It's like using a car to drive 2 mph.  It's easier to just walk.
 
As for Sony's universal controller it sounds like some of the really not-thought-out-enough ideas that people talked about when the DS was released.  The issues are the same; no tactile sensation when you use a touchscreen so you can't feel what you're doing and two buttons cannot be pushed at the same time.  It's a really STUPID idea that only sounds good to someone who doesn't stop to hypothesize what it would be like to actually use the damn thing.  Kind of like the mainstream media's reaction to Natal.

[Chozo Ghost]

I see what you're saying, Ian. I think a company could design a controller that could meet all needs, though, by just adding on a switch or something that can make an analog stick revert to the digital "on/off" functionality.

Why couldn't that be done? If you're playing Tetris, flip a switch to digital and the stick works like D-pad. But then you can flip it back to Analog whenever you are playing a 3D game. No problem, right? Better yet, just have the system determine whether the game needs analog or digital and then make the change automatically on a per-game basis.

I can also imagine a controller that has a detachable thumb-stick. Detach that stick, and it becomes a standard D-pad. Reattach it, and its an analog stick once again.

The beauty behind having something that can morph into either analog or digital is that it serves all needs and doesn't require any extra room on the controller.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I actually got the idea from reading the last couple post in this thread, but

The one thing I haven't heard anybody mention and never seen a patent on.

Analog D-Pad.

where is it? why has no one invented and patented it yet(or have they)?
this seems like the solution to the handheld analog nub problem and too many control inputs on one controller.

DS2 should have an Analog D-Pad.

[Adrock]

I can also imagine a controller that has a detachable thumb-stick. Detach that stick, and it becomes a standard D-pad. Reattach it, and its an analog stick once again.

No way, that would never work. First of all, that's a choking hazard. Second, a lot of people can't even keep track of their house keys and they'd be expected to hold onto a small piece of a controller?

[Chozo Ghost]

No way, that would never work. First of all, that's a choking hazard. Second, a lot of people can't even keep track of their house keys and they'd be expected to hold onto a small piece of a controller?

What about the DS stylus? Its also a choking hazard and people (not me, but apparently some people) lose it often. But you know what? Toddlers and infants have no business playing video games in the first place. Anyone under about 6 or so shouldn't be playing games at all, and that's the age where choking is a real danger. Secondly, we're talking about a cheap piece of plastic. Replacement analog sticks can be mass produced for mere pennies. Remember, we're only talking about the cheap plastic stick and not any complex electronics or anything.

[BlackNMild2k1]

No children under 6? really?
you under estimate the ability of the youth.

I can see no children under 3 because they just wouldn't have the motor skills to get anything done, but 6? Most children aren't stupid unless you let them be, I'm sure most 3 year olds can get down on some simpler videogames and figure out how to use a stylus.