Topic: RetroActive #10: Shining Force II Discussion Thread

[gojira]

Do you get experience for using items? I haven't tried it yet, but it seems possible given how the game rewards everything else.

If I remember correctly, healers get some exp when using healing items.  Other characters just get 1 exp.

[Stratos]

Do you get experience for using items? I haven't tried it yet, but it seems possible given how the game rewards everything else.

If I remember correctly, healers get some exp when using healing items.  Other characters just get 1 exp.

That is correct. I kinda wish you got more if they were better items.

It is a little frustrating that you are stuck with a limited amount of mana each battle because I tend to spam my healers in Fire Emblem to level them up faster so I can promote them at 20. Hard to spam healers in Shining Force when they run out of mana after a couple heals.

[vudu]

It is a little frustrating that you are stuck with a limited amount of mana each battle because I tend to spam my healers in Fire Emblem to level them up faster so I can promote them at 20. Hard to spam healers in Shining Force when they run out of mana after a couple heals.

Healers generally don't even get that much experience from using healing spells--usually around 10 or 15 exp. points.

Every time it's practical, when I weaken an enemy to 1 or 2 HP I finish him off with either Sarah or Kazin so they get 49 exp. points.  Even if it takes a couple turns to get them in place and attack it's not a big deal since you generally don't need to worry about your units counter-attacking--and therefore killing--the weakened enemy when he attacks your units.

So far I've had zero problems keeping all my units at around the same level (~14 by battle 12).

[Jonnyboy117]

I've seen some interesting things as I continue through the game.

- I got into a random battle. I'm pretty sure it was random, because I was walking through a region of the overworld that I'd been to before (I was just searching around for extra stuff, and there wasn't any). The enemies were of the same level as other battles in that part of the game.

- An enemy dropped an item during battle. It was a Power Ring, which increases your Attack stat by 5 points.

- Slade is actually quite good once you can buy the Dagger for him. He has high agility, so he can approach enemies from far away and then escape if his HP get low. I also love the Tortoise because his movement seems unaffected by terrain, and his defense is ridiculous. I started to like Chester once he got better attack range.

- Sarah is easier to level up once she learns the Blast spell, which attacks enemies. It's cheap, too, so it makes her useful even after her MP gets too low to keep healing people. I also keep her stocked with herbs so she can heal after consuming all her MP.

- The cave battle was interesting, due to the darkness giving a "fog of war" kind of affect. I also noticed that May's arrows had shorter range in the dark.

[NWR_DrewMG]

You're further than I am, Jonny.  I'm hoping to put some more time into this tonight, so I can write something in the forums about the game before the next show.

How about Peter the Phoenix?  He's pretty badass.

[vudu]

- I got into a random battle. I'm pretty sure it was random, because I was walking through a region of the overworld that I'd been to before (I was just searching around for extra stuff, and there wasn't any). The enemies were of the same level as other battles in that part of the game.

It's actually not a true "random battle".  Oddly enough, you most likely repeated the same battle I did, which was battle #8 (the first battle after the village relocates to the mainland where the goal is to save the fallen worker).  After I completed battle #9 I went exploring (same as you) and wandered into the upper path of the main field, not realizing that was where the previous battle took place.  On my way back to the main field I got sucked into the same battle I had completed earlier, with the same enemies and placement.  Since I didn't want to over-level my characters I just escaped the battle using Bowie's magic.

[Jonnyboy117]

Yes, that's where I ran into it. So it's not random, just repeatable, eh? Still, it could be useful if you want to grind a bit.

Peter seems awesome, but I haven't gained control of him yet. The AI often has him flying around the start area, long after the battle's front has moved across the map.

[vudu]

Peter seems awesome, but I haven't gained control of him yet. The AI often has him flying around the start area, long after the battle's front has moved across the map.

I had the same problem with Peter.  I poked around GameFAQS a bit, trying to figure out when I'd finally get to control him, and it seems like most of the people on their message board have the opposite gripe.  They complained that CPU-controlled Peter was an experience hog because he would single-handedly wipe out the opposing force before the other fighters could get any good hits in.  Odd indeed.

I also love the Tortoise because his movement seems unaffected by terrain, and his defense is ridiculous.

Ug.  I gave up using Kiwi because he kept dying after a single hit.  He only has 7 HP to start out and any time a magic user targeted him he was toast.

[Stratos]

Peter is floats aimlessly for me. Maybe that only happens if you either take too long to kill some enemies or enemies get too close to him along his path.

[vudu]

Oh, if an enemy enters his attack range he'll kill it mercilessly.  But that never seems to happen because if there's nothing he can attack immediately he only moves a square or two instead of to the end or his range.  It seems the CPU is unwilling to put Peter into an enemy's attack range unless he's attacking another enemy.  I suppose it's for the best because it would be rather infuriating if Peter kept dying because the CPU was too aggressive.

[Jonnyboy117]

Ug.  I gave up using Kiwi because he kept dying after a single hit.  He only has 7 HP to start out and any time a magic user targeted him he was toast.

Try to keep him away from magic users. It's called strategy, man!

[vudu]

It just doesn't seem worth it.  He might have fantastic defense, but since his HP and magic resistance are so low he'll always be less useful than a more-rounded character.  Later, when you have more characters in your party than can participate in a battle, you'll need to start choosing which characters you keep and and which will be permanently sidelined.  I already know Kiwi doesn't stand a chance in my final roster so I'm better off dumping him now so the characters I do want to keep get the extra experience.  Now that's strategy. 

[Stratos]

It always bugged me in SRPGs and RPGs in general that you end up with a bajillion allies that end up sitting around being useless. Either make more of the battles allow more characters in them or give a way to keep less played characters relevant or just don't give them to us.

[vudu]

In Fire Emblem it makes sense to give you more characters than you need since they can die permanently--although Shadow Dragon went a bit overboard by giving you an endless supply of generic characters if you ran short on fighters.  However, in Shining Force II it doesn't make much sense since characters don't die.  And since some characters are inherently better than others, it's hard to argue that they did it so you can customize your party to your liking.  The only reason you'd want to pick some of these characters is if you've played the game before and want a semi-different experience.

[vudu]

I listened to RFN 169 this weekend.  There were some criticisms against my claim that death is irrelevant and I wanted to refute them here.

The crew claimed that the punishment for death was that your characters couldn't get any more experience that battle and thus could fall behind, potentially hurting you in future battles.  To that I say Pbppppppt.  You're not thinking big enough.  Death is meaningless.  You could have a character 10 levels behind the rest of your team and still raise his or her level up to that of the rest of the teams' if you have enough patience.

Let's say Chester is at level 10 when everyone else is at level 20.  If you have him kill two characters during a level he'll gain an entire level.  Just enter a battle and don't kill anyone unless it's with Chester.  When he dies, flee the battle, bring him back to life at a church, and repeat the process.  You'll be able to bring him up to the rest of the party within a half hour.

Advice for Greg regarding leveling up Sarah:  MP is automatically refilled before every battle.  Therefore, you should never finish a battle with leftover MP for Sarah.  Heal everyone--even if they don't need to be healed--just so she gets the experience.  Sarah should easily be able to gain 1 full level each battle from healing alone.

[Jonnyboy117]

Death is meaningless...  if you have enough patience.

You could say that about almost any video game. Fire Emblem is a very rare exception. I don't think all other games, even in the same genre, should be held to that same standard.

[gojira]

It always bugged me in SRPGs and RPGs in general that you end up with a bajillion allies that end up sitting around being useless. Either make more of the battles allow more characters in them or give a way to keep less played characters relevant or just don't give them to us.

Good point vudu about Fire Emblem and the permanent deaths. 

The reason why they have so many characters is for replay value.  This is clear when you take into consideration the parts where you specifically have to choose certain characters over others.  Or the fact that there are secret characters to find.  Sure 'magic user A' may be better than 'magic user B', but you don't know that until you level them up.  Remember this game came out well before gamefaqs.com.  Being a person who has played the game several times, it's interesting having the ability to go with different characters.  The last time I played I choose all the powerhouses.  This time it's more the characters I like. 

But it does bother the OCD in me that wants to level up every character the first time through. 

[Stratos]

Death is meaningless...  if you have enough patience.

You could say that about almost any video game. Fire Emblem is a very rare exception. I don't think all other games, even in the same genre, should be held to that same standard.

And even in Fire Emblem you just exercise enough patience to restart the level every time a unit dies. The only time I leave them permanently dead is if I get so tired of losing the same unit that I just decide to keep going.

It always bugged me in SRPGs and RPGs in general that you end up with a bajillion allies that end up sitting around being useless. Either make more of the battles allow more characters in them or give a way to keep less played characters relevant or just don't give them to us.

Good point vudu about Fire Emblem and the permanent deaths. 

The reason why they have so many characters is for replay value.  This is clear when you take into consideration the parts where you specifically have to choose certain characters over others.  Or the fact that there are secret characters to find.  Sure 'magic user A' may be better than 'magic user B', but you don't know that until you level them up.  Remember this game came out well before gamefaqs.com.  Being a person who has played the game several times, it's interesting having the ability to go with different characters.  The last time I played I choose all the powerhouses.  This time it's more the characters I like. 

The funny thing is sometimes I get tired of restarting, abandon the game and down the road pick it up and start all over from the beginning. Every time I do this my team changes a little bit. I have only beaten two Fire Emblem games but I still get hours of enjoyment from each one. Every time I play through it feels different enough I don't get tired of doing it thanks to the other units I choose.

But it does bother the OCD in me that wants to level up every character the first time through. 

It should be called CDO, because then the letters are in alphabetical order...AS THEY SHOULD BE!