Topic: Zelda: Breath of the Wild (Switch/Wii U)

[Evan_B]

I too, like the idea that Zelda doesn't become stale because of design choices. Link controls relatively the same way in all his 3D outings and similarly enough in his 2D ventures that the series always feels good to pick up once again.

That being said, I think the worst entries in the series are those which tie directly into Ocarina of Time in slavish fashion. Wind Waker is tied to Ocarina in a story sense, but does almost nothing interesting with its gameplay or dungeons otherwise, and Twilight Princess is... well, Ocarina of Time on weirdo steroids. Simply put, I preferred Skyward Sword, even with its flaws, over those entries because it felt wholly unique while still honoring the series' traditions in certain ways. I think Breath of the Wild does the same, in some ways, and doesn't succeed in others. But I do believe that the spirit of adventure and exploration was achieved, even if there's nothing substantial in-game to be gained from exploration. It's player driven and I respect that.

Anyway, before I go any further, I would direct y'all to my epic Breath of the Wild review located on our forum. I don't want to sound like a broken record.

[Mop it up]

The reward for completing Eventide Isle is so totally not worth the time you have to waste on it. A single orb? Really? I was expecting at least 2 for that (or another piece of climbing gear like the one I got from another shrine nearby) after having to take down a giant through sheer will with none of my gear.

The reward of Eventide is the gameplay. Also, you do not have to take down the Hinox, if you are crafty...

Which games do you think need defending?

Isn't this going off topic? I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but off the top of my head...

1-2-Switch
ARMS
The Legend of Zelda: Tri Force Heroes
Metroid Prime Federation Force
Pokémon Super Mystery Dungeon

And even though it's popular, sometimes I feel like the Splatoon series needs defending...

[broodwars]

Well, I've freed all the Divine Beasts & recovered the Master Sword, so I suppose I can take Ganon on any time now. I just want to find & complete all the shrines & memories first.

Man, the Divine Beast dungeons suck. They're all essentially "Water Temples" in concept, all based around the concept of manipulating the dungeon into various configurations so you can reach the same 5 terminals to unlock the main terminal. And god, is it boring. Guess the designers spent all their creative energy on the shrines.

[Luigi Dude]

Well, I've freed all the Divine Beasts & recovered the Master Sword, so I suppose I can take Ganon on any time now. I just want to find & complete all the shrines & memories first.

Man, the Divine Beast dungeons suck. They're all essentially "Water Temples" in concept, all based around the concept of manipulating the dungeon into various configurations so you can reach the same 5 terminals to unlock the main terminal. And god, is it boring. Guess the designers spent all their creative energy on the shrines.

Now I wouldn't say they all suck since I really liked the Camel dungeon, but I do agree they overall are kind of underwhelming, especially when compared to the Shrines.  The problem with the Divine Beast is they wanted them to be non-linear like the rest of the overworld, where players can do any part of the dungeon in any order they like.  That really limited how far they could take the designs though since if every area of the dungeon is meant to be accessible from the start then it's hard to really keep building a particular type of concept up.  This is why the Shine's are much better since they're usually just one type of puzzle they could go all out with and sometimes keep making more complex kind of like traditional Zelda dungeons except on a smaller scale.

I hope for the next Zelda they realized that just because the overworld is non-linear it doesn't mean the dungeons have to be as well.  Just make them bigger versions of the Shines which still have some non-linearity in them since many puzzles have several ways to solve them, but the overall concept will have a clear expansion that keeps getting more complex.  That way they could still brag about the game giving players a ton of freedom, but it wouldn't be to the point of destroying the uniqueness of the dungeons, which is one thing most people agreed where still pretty good in previous Zelda's.

[broodwars]

Well, I decided to just go ahead & finish the game after collecting the memories, because honestly? I had better games to play, & this one was just wasting my time.

Man, Calamity Ganon is kind of symptomatic of this game as a whole: he's big & visually impressive, but evokes no emotional reaction & is bereft of any narrative interest. And ultimately, he's just boring & lame, which pretty much sums up my opinion of this game. It's one giant, bloated, colossal waste that has some good ideas (I.e. the Portal Test Chambers...err.."Shrines"), but ultimately I was more annoyed playing through it than entertained. And the dungeons, one of the main reasons I play Zelda, are all terrible IMO.

This game has no story, and what story there is in the memories, which are really just teasers for the DLC. I guess Nintendo learned a lot about being a modern AAA developer.

There were parts I liked of Breath of the Wild, but not enough to get over how empty & annoying an experience it was. It's pure quantity over quality. If we do get a Majora-esque sequel/spinoff, I hope it's smaller & more focused.

[BranDonk Kong]

"This game has no story"

You're fired from Nintendo.

[ShyGuy]

So... 9/10 then?

[broodwars]

So... 9/10 then?

I realize you're being sarcastic, but if I had to put down a number, I think Sterling's 6/10 is alarmingly accurate to how I felt coming out of the game. It's slightly above-average, but with a lot of flaws that hampered my enjoyment. It's a game with some great highs, but also some ABYSMAL lows.

[BranDonk Kong]

You're crazy.

[ejamer]

I don't feel the same way broodwars does, and think this is the reason why:

... And the dungeons, one of the main reasons I play Zelda, are all terrible IMO. ...

I agree that dungeon design was sorely lacking in this game. For me, the overworld exploration made up for it - but anyone going in expecting strong dungeons is bound to be disappointed. Shrines are a poor replacement, although are a neat idea that was worth trying. Divine Beasts are ok, but reuse ideas so much that it's hard to even count them as four distinct dungeons... and when is the last time a Zelda game only had four dungeons anyway?


Is it odd to say that exploring Hyrule Castle was (at times) closer to the dungeons I wanted than any of the actual Shrine puzzle rooms? It has hidden passages, secret items, enemy battles, and more. Unfortunately, almost all of that exploration was optional as you can pretty easily climb around the castle and get to Ganon without really exploring the castle at all. The first time I reached Ganon, I had skipped all of the "fun stuff" accidentally.


I still love the game, and think it's great fun. But I don't begrudge people who were sorely disappointed. My biggest hope is that they find a way to mix the open world design (which I like) with better dungeon designs in a future Zelda game.

[Adrock]

and when is the last time a Zelda game only had four dungeons anyway?

Majora’s Mask? I suppose the lead up to each actual dungeon were like mini-dungeons. Still, Majora’s Mask only had one really good dungeon and even then, it was saddled with the weird requirement of having to go outside to flip it.

Most Shrines were isolated puzzle rooms. I didn’t mind the idea behind them besides the motion control ones. They mostly made sense as far as warp points even if some were very close together. I would have gladly traded 1/4 to 1/3 of them for four genuine, traditional style dungeons. Maybe with the requirement of having to clear several Shrines to gain access to the dungeon.

Ultimately, the Shrines weren’t a failed experiment. For the world Nintendo created for Breath of the Wild, they made sense. The open-world is a good foundation to build from so I expect the next Zelda to address and improve it.

[broodwars]

The problem with the Divine Beasts isn't that there are only four of them. Majora's Mask only has 4 core dungeons & that's my favorite Zelda game.

The problem with the Divine Beasts is that they're all the same short lackluster dungeon with the same hook & the same lead-up: go to a town; everyone but one guy whines about the Divine Beast being on a relatively-tame rampage; team up with the one guy to fight your way into the Divine Beast; rotate all or part of the Beast to access 5 generic computer terminals; fight a generic purple Ganon incarnation; wash; rinse; repeat. It's boring & emblematic of the game's copy & paste approach to content.

You may not have liked the 4 core dungeons in Majora, but they were all DIFFERENT dungeons with unique hooks & bosses. The same with Wind Waker, another Zelda whose short dungeon count draws criticism.

You know what else Majora has over Breath of the Wild? Actual goddamn emotion. That game invests you in its characters via their individual stories & the way they approach their inevital doom. I didn't care about a single character in Breath. You never get to know them, & their entire investment is built around "you should probably do something around Ganon, you know...whenever. No rush." There is no passion, no emotion in Breath of the Wild. There's just cold, detached, clinical precision. You will stop that Divine Beast because that's what your literal checklist tells you to do. You will stop Ganon because that's what is at the end of that checklist, not because he's a engaging threat or because you actually care about this kingdom.

[ejamer]

...
You know what else Majora has over Breath of the Wild? Actual goddamn emotion. That game invests you in its characters via their individual stories & the way they approach their inevital doom. I didn't care about a single character in Breath. You never get to know them, & their entire investment is built around "you should probably do something around Ganon, you know...whenever. No rush." There is no passion, no emotion in Breath of the Wild. There's just cold, detached, clinical precision. You will stop that Divine Beast because that's what your literal checklist tells you to do. You will stop Ganon because that's what is at the end of that checklist, not because he's a engaging threat or because you actually care about this kingdom.

I don't agree here.


Although I didn't immediately feel for the characters or overall plight of Hyrule initially, there were enough bits of story that it built into something much more cohesive by the end of the game. There was a lack of meaningful time pressure - but that's common in most open world video games that allow you to set your own goals and pacing.


You can rush to Ganon very quickly, ignoring the divine beasts if you choose. Why spend time beating them? Because the difficulty is much higher if you don't have at least a couple of those extra powers.


Could the story have been better? Sure. Was it good enough? I think so.

[BranDonk Kong]

I disagree with just about everyone broodwars has to say about the story and being invested in the characters. It's almost as if you didn't listen to any of the cut scenes or anything. Yes, the missing dungeons were very different - but this is a very different game altogether. It's not like Ocarina where Ganon has been running people into hiding for 7 years. Everyone died trying to stop Ganon 100 years prior, and their ancestors barely have any idea who link is. The lack of dungeons are essentially a part of the story. You wake up form 100 years of sleep, try to remember who you are for a few days, avenge your previous failure and kill Ganon.

10/10 - and it's gonna win game of the year.

[Luigi Dude]

Is it odd to say that exploring Hyrule Castle was (at times) closer to the dungeons I wanted than any of the actual Shrine puzzle rooms? It has hidden passages, secret items, enemy battles, and more. Unfortunately, almost all of that exploration was optional as you can pretty easily climb around the castle and get to Ganon without really exploring the castle at all. The first time I reached Ganon, I had skipped all of the "fun stuff" accidentally.

Nope, Hyrule Castle was easily my favorite part of the game and they're many other that share the same sentiment because of its design.  Hyrule Castle should hopefully be the blueprint for how they design the dungeons in the next open world Zelda and they could easily solve the biggest problem some have with Breath of the Wild.

What I'd like to see is around 7 Hyrule Castle like structures in the next game as the dungeons.  Now they don't all need to be Castles, they can get creative like they did in previous 3D Zelda with things like mansions, ships or mining facilities.  Give them a ton of secrets and branching paths like Hyrule Castle but put in more shrine like puzzles throughout them but the puzzles are more organic to each setting like older Zelda dungeons were.  Make the early puzzles simpler and can be done in any order but as the player gets further in the dungeon there's some area's that are blocked off and require keys from the early puzzles to progress.  These area's would naturally have more complicated puzzles and challenges that get harder the closer you get to the boss.  This would certainly allow for more unique designs as the player progresses further and a good way be more like a traditional Zelda dungeon while still offering some freedom, especially if some puzzles still have multiple ways to complete them like the Shrines would.

[broodwars]

Yeah...I wouldn't want more dungeons EXACTLY like Hyrule Castle. Like Ejamer, I wasn't looking forward to facing off with 3-4 Guardians head-on, so I just Waterfall Swam & Rivali's Gale-d my way up the back into the Sanctum. If the game designers can't be bothered to make me engage with their elaborate death trap, I figured "Why should I?"

Besides, the Switch's right stick is nowhere NEAR good enough for the accuracy required to take down Guardians easily, so I avoided it if I could.

[pokepal148]

I absolutely adore BOTW but at the same time I can see why the very things I loved about it can turn someone off. That said Broodwars is wrong, wrong WRONG and should be ashamed of himself for how wrong he is.

[ShyGuy]

I think Eventide Island was a "dungeon" I think the pitch dark forest was a dungeon. I think getting to and the tasks to get the Master Sword were a dungeon. I think the Ninja clan fortress was a dungeon. I think the Labirynth's were dungeons. I think Hyrule castle was a great dungeon.

[Evan_B]

I think ShyGuy is way more on-point about what should be considered a dungeon in this game, because frankly, while Skyward Sword was the culmination of the 3D Zelda dungeon design and totally awesome because of it, I think we need to move on from this idea that dungeons need to be these "EVENTS" that have to have story significance, and should really just be explore-able, enjoyable environmental elements.

Also, I have a lot of problems with the idea that all four Divine Beasts were the same, because they most certainly were not, in form, in gimmick, and in difficulty. I think y'all having problems with the aesthetic homogenization of those elements is valid and a result of this being the first massive Nintendo game of its kind, but that doesn't mean there was design homogenization. This game had more new ideas about Zelda than any other game in the series and I'd like to celebrate it for that, while also accepting its flaws.

But that's not an inflammatory opinion so I probably will be dismissed.

[nickmitch]

I really don't get the lack of story argument.  Even things like buying your old house has story elements in it.

****, that whole sidequest is one long story.  It may be inconsequential, but it's still good.

And the game has plenty of emotion, if you get past the voice acting.

[Luigi Dude]

Yeah...I wouldn't want more dungeons EXACTLY like Hyrule Castle. Like Ejamer, I wasn't looking forward to facing off with 3-4 Guardians head-on, so I just Waterfall Swam & Rivali's Gale-d my way up the back into the Sanctum. If the game designers can't be bothered to make me engage with their elaborate death trap, I figured "Why should I?"

I'm not talking about making them 100% the same thing complete with Guardians that can 1-shot you everywhere, but the design layout and how they're part of the actual overworld.  The Castle is filled with secrets, hidden rooms, branching paths including several that are even connected to the overworld.  If you just climbed your way to the Sanctum then you missed a lot.

The design of Hyrule Castle offers a great template that just needs a few improvements to provide a more traditional Zelda dungeon experience with better puzzles that are connected to the location, while still maintaining the sense of freedom and discovery Breath of the Wild provided with tons of secret area's and pathways to find.

[BranDonk Kong]

I think ShyGuy nailed it.

[ejamer]

I think Eventide Island was a "dungeon" I think the pitch dark forest was a dungeon. I think getting to and the tasks to get the Master Sword were a dungeon. I think the Ninja clan fortress was a dungeon. I think the Labirynth's were dungeons. I think Hyrule castle was a great dungeon.

Eventide and Ninja Clan - Sure, I can agree on these. Eventide was pretty awesome.


Dark Forest and path to Master Sword - Not so much, although both interesting parts of the overworld.


Labyrinths - Eh... I see the argument, but don't really feel that an oversized maze counts as a dungeon. There were a few secrets though, and some nice rewards though.


The reason I'm totally happy with the game, even though I think it misses the mark on dungeons, is because there are just so many cool things to do integrated directly into the world. The examples you list (and of course, Hyrule Castle itself) are some fine examples.


Is it greedy to say I want everything it offered, and more? Because that's what my complaint comes down to. Maybe the upcoming DLC will be exactly what I'm craving? With four separate heroes, presumably on four separate quests of some sort, it seems totally possible.

[broodwars]

I really don't get the lack of story argument.  Even things like buying your old house has story elements in it.

****, that whole sidequest is one long story.  It may be inconsequential, but it's still good.

I never ran across that sidequest.

[ejamer]

I really don't get the lack of story argument.  Even things like buying your old house has story elements in it.

****, that whole sidequest is one long story.  It may be inconsequential, but it's still good.

I never ran across that sidequest.

I feel most of the story is like this - implied moments, and things you have to make assumptions about instead of being directly given. I'm ok with that here, although don't want all games to be the same way.