Author Topic: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'  (Read 217216 times)

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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #850 on: December 19, 2009, 12:24:49 PM »
Well, that'd be a reason though not an acceptable one.

Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #851 on: December 19, 2009, 12:52:07 PM »
Certainly says something about the attitude of the "professional" games press, huh?  "Pay up or we'll write mean things on the internet."
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #852 on: December 19, 2009, 12:55:10 PM »
Well, that'd be a reason though not an acceptable one.

Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

You can say whatever you like about how the press has acted in the past, but what's important now is how they're acting now.  No one disputes that Nintendo makes a lot of money with their current strategy, but it's not the press' job to hype that but report it (and report it, they still do).  It's their job to be the watchdog and keep an eye out for their readers, something I think they're doing quite capably.  It's not like Nintendo has been the only one in the media's crosshairs over the past few years: Sony was (and is) continually pestered about their decision to launch the PS3 with such a ludicrous price point, their decision to strip the PS3 of key features, and the lack of continual sales on PS3 software; Microsoft was (and is) continually pestered about the hardware failure rate of the Xbox 360 and the growing lack of 360 exclusives; and both are continually pestered as to what they need to do to recapture their former marketshare.  It isn't just Nintendo that gets criticized, and in general the criticism is good for the industry.  It keeps the discussion and flow of ideas going.  For example, do you really think we would have seen the Wii firmware update to fix the storage problem if the media hadn't hounded Nintendo about that for years (for years, Nintendo publicly ignored the problem).
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Offline SixthAngel

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #853 on: December 19, 2009, 01:17:55 PM »
Well, that'd be a reason though not an acceptable one.

Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

Apparently the two way street is that developers give them money/ads and then the site gives them favorable reviews/previews.  Many websites have already been caught doing this and it is essentially an open secret that all the big(ish) sites do it.  Although popular sequels can just threaten to have them lose "access" if they start saying bad things.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 01:20:40 PM by SixthAngel »

Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #854 on: December 19, 2009, 01:19:07 PM »
Well, that'd be a reason though not an acceptable one.

Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

Apparently the two way street is that developers give them money/ads and then the site gives them favorable reviews/previews.  Many websites have already been caught doing this and it is essentially an open secret that all the big(ish) sites do it.

That's a pretty big accusation you're making there, so I assume you have evidence to back up corruption of that nature in the major sites.  Yeah, I've seen a few news stories about various European magazines and whatnot getting bought off by Eidos, and of course there's the huge Kane & Lynch scandal a few years ago.  But those are the only major stories I can recall, and I haven't seen any stories about media corruption lately.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 01:23:15 PM by broodwars »
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Offline SixthAngel

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #855 on: December 19, 2009, 01:23:08 PM »
That's a pretty big accusation you're making there, so I assume you have evidence to back up corruption of that nature in the major sites.
The most obvious example is the whole Gamespot/Gerstmann thing.

If you can't see the obvious conflict of interest from having the main adverstisers of your site be the very people whose products you review you have to be blind.  It would be a miracle if there was actual integrity when you are getting paid by the people you are supposed to criticise.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 01:26:39 PM by SixthAngel »

Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #856 on: December 19, 2009, 01:24:28 PM »
That's a pretty big accusation you're making there, so I assume you have evidence to back up corruption of that nature in the major sites.
The most obvious example is the whole Gamespot/Gerstmann thing.

Yeah, while you were posting that I was correcting my post to note Kane & Lynch-gate.  Considering I was just watching some stuff at Giant Bomb yesterday, I can't believe I forgot that.
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Offline Enner

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #857 on: December 19, 2009, 01:49:29 PM »

If you can't see the obvious conflict of interest from having the main adverstisers of your site be the very people whose products you review you have to be blind.  It would be a miracle if there was actual integrity when you are getting paid by the people you are supposed to criticise.

Hey, one can hope, right? Maybe there are honest businessmen publishing and developing games that care about the quality of their product more than money.

No? Never again? Such a thing never existed?
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #858 on: December 19, 2009, 02:01:07 PM »
If you can't see the obvious conflict of interest from having the main adverstisers of your site be the very people whose products you review you have to be blind.  It would be a miracle if there was actual integrity when you are getting paid by the people you are supposed to criticise.

It would indeed be a conflict of interest if there weren't a deliberate separation between editorial and advertisement, especially after Kane & Lynch-gate made the issue very public.  By your argument, though, I suppose we can't take any positive review from NWR seriously, because after all they do host advertisements for games they review.   ::)

The big risk of corruption in the modern media is the threat of the "big name game" (see: Famitsu's fabulous list of "perfect" games) and the special reviewer events that come up from time to time.  But as the Tony Hawk Ride reviews have shown, even the special reviewer events aren't enough if the game truly is bad.
 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 02:05:15 PM by broodwars »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #859 on: December 19, 2009, 03:26:02 PM »
Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

The press is supposed to deliver unbiased reports, not court/attack publishers. They're supposed to give us information, not try to manipulate us as part of their ballgame. If they act like they are superior to us by trying to use us they're going to lose us because there's an unlimited supply of writers who don't do that. Newspapers got disrupted by the internet because their content stopped caring about the reader, now gaming websites are being disrupted by blogs and review aggregators (which may link to their reviews but let people pick the juicy bits without being regular readers of the site) because they wrote their content to fight their battle rather than to serve the reader.

Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #860 on: December 19, 2009, 03:37:43 PM »
Why not?  If Nintendo is not willing to work with the press, why should the press be willing to just roll over and sing their praises?  Public relations is a two-way street that Nintendo continually slams the "One Way Only" sign on, so we should be surprised that the press has grown rather cynical towards Nintendo over the years?

The press is supposed to deliver unbiased reports, not court/attack publishers. They're supposed to give us information, not try to manipulate us as part of their ballgame.

Alright, this is where the ignorance steps in: the difference between the news and editorial.  The job of a journalist when telling the news is to "deliver unbiased reports, not court/attack publishers."  When delivering an editorial, they can say whatever they want so long as it is actually their own opinion.  Despite whatever you want to believe, all those podcasts; reviews; and articles you all have been complaining about are editorials and as such these people can say whatever they want.  Whether you choose to follow their opinions is up to you.  The press aren't reporting untrue news about Nintendo: it has continually sold well over the past few years, and the press have reported these facts consistently.  If they were doing otherwise and allowing editorial to influence their news reporting, then they wouldn't be doing their jobs.  But if these people have serious problems with Nintendo, it is perfectly professional to write an article stating their grievances. 

Of course, whether the writing within those editorials is professional (as in "well written" and accurate when citing facts) is a completely different story.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 04:33:07 PM by broodwars »
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #861 on: December 19, 2009, 08:47:56 PM »
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When delivering an editorial, they can say whatever they want so long as it is actually their own opinion.

Well that's the issue.  Is it their opinion or are they fishing for kickbacks?

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The press aren't reporting untrue news about Nintendo: it has continually sold well over the past few years, and the press have reported these facts consistently.  If they were doing otherwise and allowing editorial to influence their news reporting, then they wouldn't be doing their jobs.

Actually they have let their editorial biases conflict their reporting before.  Back when it was in vogue to slam the DS for being a "Virtual Boy," they had some pretty slanted reporting of the Japanese launch of both the DS and PSP.  They chose some out of the way camera store with three guys standing outside as the "DS launch" and a goodly sized queue from mainstreet Tokyo for the "PSP Launch."  However, the numbers clearly showed the DS clocked the PSP and there were pictures of gigantic lines for the DS that dwarfed the PSP Line.  It was pretty embarrassing when they got caught doing that, and they haven't really explained why they did it.  But even without evidence, who would trust their news-reporting if the people that were their editors or managers are fishing for money with editorial "hit pieces?"

It's not ignorant to think IGN is trying to use the strength of their readership as fuel for their bully pulpit.  It makes you a critical consumer of media.
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #862 on: December 19, 2009, 09:04:20 PM »
Well that's the issue.  Is it their opinion or are they fishing for kickbacks?

As far as I'm concerned, that's a pretty cynical outlook, and one that I don't share.  I don't automatically assume that every media outlet puts hits/views/ratings above truth.  I know that it's a popular notion, but I don't buy in.  Not saying I believe everything I read, but when it comes to opinion pieces, especially from places that have been under the radar as long as IGN, I simply don't believe that they intentionally write opinion pieces to push some anti-Nintendo agenda. 
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #863 on: December 19, 2009, 09:21:45 PM »
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When delivering an editorial, they can say whatever they want so long as it is actually their own opinion.

Well that's the issue.  Is it their opinion or are they fishing for kickbacks?

Well, that's a question neither you nor I can answer absolutely nor on more than a case by case basis.  I'm sure there are corrupt journalists out there just as there are corrupt forms of every other occupation in the world, but I'm not about to judge an entire industry based on a few notable criminals.  I will say this, though: Deguello, you're making me look optimistic and that's a feat I would consider nearly impossible.   ;)

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Actually they have let their editorial biases conflict their reporting before.  Back when it was in vogue to slam the DS for being a "Virtual Boy," they had some pretty slanted reporting of the Japanese launch of both the DS and PSP.  They chose some out of the way camera store with three guys standing outside as the "DS launch" and a goodly sized queue from mainstreet Tokyo for the "PSP Launch."  However, the numbers clearly showed the DS clocked the PSP and there were pictures of gigantic lines for the DS that dwarfed the PSP Line.  It was pretty embarrassing when they got caught doing that, and they haven't really explained why they did it.

Alright, this example you cited is a perfect example of what I was talking about - a failure to report or portray the news as what it is, and that's not the last time IGN's been guilty of this.  Just a few months ago, I took issue with an NPD report IGN posted.  The headline for this report stated that "Playstation" had outsold the Wii for that particular month.  Read the article, though, and you see that while this was technically true, it was only in the sense that the Playstation brand (PSP, PS2, PS3) combined had outsold the Wii for that particular month.  It's a misleading headline on a news story, and it was irresponsible journalism designed to elicit a particular reaction from their readers.  These are the sort of stories this thread should be covering, not whining about every editorial that crosses the web that's critical of Nintendo.

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It's not ignorant to think IGN is trying to use the strength of their readership as fuel for their bully pulpit.  It makes you a critical consumer of media.

No, what I was calling "ignorant" was this idea of KDR's that because writers on sites like IGN are journalists that that means that they are forbidden from expressing opinion in any professional format.  It was BS and I called him on it.

And what if IGN is doing as you say?  I see no more ridiculousness here than I would simply opening up the Editorial page of the New York Times or any other major newspaper.  Editorial is traditionally used to bring about one of two things: change in the audience by speaking about a particular issue the writer wants the reader to know more about, or change in the world by speaking about a particular issue the reader cares about and galvanizing them into action.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 09:38:43 PM by broodwars »
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Offline mac<censored>

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #864 on: December 19, 2009, 10:35:38 PM »
Not saying I believe everything I read, but when it comes to opinion pieces, especially from places that have been under the radar as long as IGN, I simply don't believe that they intentionally write opinion pieces to push some anti-Nintendo agenda. 

I suspect there's not really a coherent "anti-Nintendo agenda", and they're not intentionally fishing for kickbacks.

I think the basic problem is just that many of the writers at IGN are simply unprofessional, and fit the "blowhard fanboy" mold pretty well.  However, despite this lack of professionalism, they've got money/access/mindshare, and that's kind of gone to their heads -- they think they're professionals, but are still acting like fanboys...

Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #865 on: December 19, 2009, 10:43:14 PM »
I suspect there's not really a coherent "anti-Nintendo agenda", and they're not intentionally fishing for kickbacks.

I think the basic problem is just that many of the writers at IGN are simply unprofessional, and fit the "blowhard fanboy" mold pretty well.  However, despite this lack of professionalism, they've got money/access/mindshare, and that's kind of gone to their heads -- they think they're professionals, but are still acting like fanboys...

It's a perfectly valid opinion, even if it's one I don't really share.  I'm willing to buy what you're selling to a certain extent, but like you said, I don't think any supposed bias is some sort of great conspiracy. 

I think it's not all that unsurprising that someone who has been playing video games as long as some of the IGN writers have might be less than enthused when a company like Nintendo not only bucks long-standing trends, but also manages to capture the market with these new tactics.  This makes the most sense to me, and far more sense than a great, all-encompassing bias.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #866 on: December 19, 2009, 10:52:57 PM »
I suspect there's not really a coherent "anti-Nintendo agenda", and they're not intentionally fishing for kickbacks.

I think the basic problem is just that many of the writers at IGN are simply unprofessional, and fit the "blowhard fanboy" mold pretty well.  However, despite this lack of professionalism, they've got money/access/mindshare, and that's kind of gone to their heads -- they think they're professionals, but are still acting like fanboys...

It's a perfectly valid opinion, even if it's one I don't really share.  I'm willing to buy what you're selling to a certain extent, but like you said, I don't think any supposed bias is some sort of great conspiracy. 

I think it's not all that unsurprising that someone who has been playing video games as long as some of the IGN writers have might be less than enthused when a company like Nintendo not only bucks long-standing trends, but also manages to capture the market with these new tactics.  This makes the most sense to me, and far more sense than a great, all-encompassing bias.

Just as an addendum to what you said, I suspect there's also great frustration within these people who grew up with gaming to see such a stubborn company like Nintendo that is so resistant to change adapt their design and business tactics to appeal to this new "casual" demographic...yet they remain as stubborn as ever to adapt to the changing climate of the core demographic.  It's like that recent Miyamoto quote where he admitted that Nintendo doesn't try to make a better product than their competitors, because they prefer to be "unique."  I think that's where a lot of the frustration in the media comes from.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 11:01:23 PM by broodwars »
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #867 on: December 19, 2009, 11:01:56 PM »
Newspapers got disrupted by the internet because their content stopped caring about the reader, now gaming websites are being disrupted by blogs and review aggregators (which may link to their reviews but let people pick the juicy bits without being regular readers of the site) because they wrote their content to fight their battle rather than to serve the reader.

As an aside, newspapers were supplanted by the web due to timeliness of content and lack of subscription fees.  And the rise of blogs and aggregators has nothing to do with any gaming sites abandoning readers, but rather has everything to do with those sites never having to ask permission to repost original content.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #868 on: December 20, 2009, 01:07:31 AM »
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These are the sort of stories this thread should be covering, not whining about every editorial that crosses the web that's critical of Nintendo.

They don't exist in a vacuum, though.  It's not like the New York Times where you have a few opinion piece writers and 350+ staff writers.  It would be hard to keep them all on the same agenda, so to speak, and they cover everything.  And since it has colored their reporting before, it's certainly withing the realm of possibility to still be continuing.

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Not saying I believe everything I read, but when it comes to opinion pieces, especially from places that have been under the radar as long as IGN, I simply don't believe that they intentionally write opinion pieces to push some anti-Nintendo agenda.

Who knows why?  I'd like to think that's their opinion, because it would certainly be food for thought, but when they've already had trouble differentiating between their editorial and news, it's certainly well within the realm of possibility that it's payback for not "playing ball."  And even not for financial reasons, even if they are just bitter fanboys, they should realize that, even if it is their own opinion, they are still writing pieces for their readers to read.  It should still be a professionally done article and not some kind of drunken rant.  Because nobody wants to pay IGN for that when they get enough of it for free elsewhere.

This isn't to say that Nintendo is above criticism or should never be criticized, but even harsh criticisms or reproaches should still be done in a professional manner, and not read like they just lifted stuff out of their forums.  They're supposed to be better than that, not just well-paid versions of the same.
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Offline mac<censored>

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #869 on: December 20, 2009, 01:43:52 AM »
Yup.  The problem is not that IGN criticizes Nintendo, it's that they do it in an unprofessional and fanboyish manner.

Well, of course nobody would care if they were just some random luserblag, but for whatever reason, they've ended up with money and resources that makes people expect better of them.

Offline Kairon

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #870 on: December 20, 2009, 02:45:06 AM »
Wait wait wait... so the problem now is that the game media is lazy and their readers don't care?
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Offline Guitar Smasher

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #871 on: December 20, 2009, 03:12:26 AM »
I like the irony, but the truth is that their readers do care, as reflected by their diminishing traffic and the recent outlash.

About editorials vs. news reporting:  Of course they're allowed to post editorial pieces but they must expect the current reaction given the severity/attitudes characteristic of their recent editorials.  After Matt accuses NSMBWii of being a game that never should have been made, and Nintendo of being lazy, how can I not consider his bias when reading his news/reviews?  It's called critical thinking, something you're teachers have been trying to teach hopefully since middle school.  If anything I appreciate their admissions; now their previously 'debated' bias is confirmed, for me.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #872 on: December 20, 2009, 03:59:02 AM »
As an aside, newspapers were supplanted by the web due to timeliness of content and lack of subscription fees.  And the rise of blogs and aggregators has nothing to do with any gaming sites abandoning readers, but rather has everything to do with those sites never having to ask permission to repost original content.

http://www.mediaweek.co.uk/news/971194/Newspaper-publishers-told-free-expensive/?DCMP=ILC-SEARCH

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Using Google’s video site YouTube by way of example, the chief executive said the company that defined viral on the web has had to start paying for quality, professional content [like Channel 4], after discovering not enough advertisers were willing to feature alongside "home videos of pet dogs having baths, or kids doing karaoke in their bedrooms".

"Today, there is one thing we must agree about the content economy – the content economy that they tell us is over," he said.

"That is, the one thing free news sites have in common with online newspapers… the one thing free news sites have in common with online newspapers… virtually none is making money."

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"Let’s face facts. A business model that assumes we can’t charge for the content we produce assumes that our content has no value in the online market.

"In pure economic terms, such a business model has to mean one of two things: Either there is no demand for the content or there are substitute suppliers of that content sufficient to drive the price almost to zero."

Pointing to WSJ’s more than two million paying subscribers, Hinton stated: "I don’t believe it."

Instead, he told publishers to "rationalise the lingering inefficiencies" and to "re-conceive our business in a less costly context".

He concluded: "In the future, good journalism will depend on the ability of a news organisation to attract customers by providing news and information they are willing to pay for.

The WSJ demonstrates that it is very possible to provide content that is valuable enough to pay for even with the internet around. The problem of the other newspapers was that their content wasn't really valuable, that any random blogger could do just as good of a job.

The aggregators and blogs I've seen rarely if ever include the full article they talk about, they usually have a short summary so you know what you're clicking on and a direct link to the story.

Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #873 on: December 20, 2009, 08:13:05 AM »
This isn't to say that Nintendo is above criticism or should never be criticized, but even harsh criticisms or reproaches should still be done in a professional manner, and not read like they just lifted stuff out of their forums.  They're supposed to be better than that, not just well-paid versions of the same.

I think this is something we can all agree on: there needs to be a greater emphasis on professionalism in their writing itself, that the message isn't so much the problem as how it is conveyed.  I wonder if part of the problem is the rise of blogs with their casual style of writing, so perhaps to compete with them the more professional media feel they need to be just as casual? 

That said, this industry is so radically different from its predecessors in film and print that I'm not sure I want our media's "voice" to be Edward R. Murrow crossed with Roger Ebert, which usually looks pretentious whenever I see it tried (see: the "gamecritics" web site).  What we see now may just be growing pains until we can find that "voice" that suits our media.
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #874 on: December 20, 2009, 08:48:01 AM »
You can't make people pay for news or reviews any more, KDR.  They can get it anywhere, and the sheer volume of content compensates for any lacking quality.  Furthermore, anybody can subscribe to a site behind a paywall and then summarize that content in full on their own website...the original site can't stop them. This is what is killing journalism.
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