Topic: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'

[KDR_11k]

To me waggle became proven as useful when I played Onslaught. It just feels natural especially since it allows you to shake the controller in any way you please to trigger the functions so you don't have to worry about doing it the way the game expects and can do it the way you find natural (e.g. a wiping motion for wiping the visor or a swinging motion for swinging the laser whip, the game only checks whether you pressed the button to draw the laser whip before swinging so there's no misdetection). That's entirely waggle, it's a completely digital act that could have been done with a button but feels better with a motion and makes the controls easier too (I guarantee that on dual analog controls some of those functions would have been mapped to L3 or R3).

As for the anonymous online multiplayer, I play games on the Wii and the PC online and they both feel equal in that regard. PC players rarely communicate either and you mostly recognize people because you've played with them before and saw their playstyle, not because you talked to them. Sure, the PC has community features but I rarely use them, it's very rare that I play the same games as my friends (and with games like MW2 there's the problem that most of them got the console version and there's no cross-platform play).

- The Wii does not support HDTVs.

Correction: The Wii does not utilize features beyond those of an EDTV. Saying it doesn't support HDTVs sounds like plugging it into an HDTV wouldn't even get a picture displayed.

[Deguello]

Regarding brainwashed Nintendo fans, every fanbase has the die-hards that never EVER see any wrong in the object of their fandom.  With Nintendo these are the fans that defend absolutely everything, love every product, and recite whatever the company line is at the present moment.  These are the fans whose opinion flip-flops if Nintendo's attitude towards something changes.  If you're a rational person and your opinion is along the same line as these people (you just arrived at that opinion in a different way) then they're fine.  But if you don't agree with them they're insufferable.

I think the real problem isn't that said fanboys could exist, Ian.  It's that they are used as strawmen for any kind of dissent with IGN's opinion.  And furthermore I rarely hear about IGN's PS3 department melting down when Sony does something stupid (like Home or PSPGo) and they call out a bunch of fanboys on their podcasts.  It seems like these extreme Nintendo fanboys are the only ones that exist sometimes.  And this is deliberately intentional, because they are in the severe minority both marketwise and even internet wise, which is why this podcast of theirs backfired and got everybody talking... about how much they suck and how predictable it is.  Any publicity =\= Good publicity.

While IGN casting all Nintendo fans as being this kind of irrational fanatic is unfair I can see why one would make this assumption.  Right now Nintendo is at it's most controversial.  Yes they're making lots of money but there has never been such polarizing views regarding them.  Even in Nintendo's own fanbase there are split opinions.

LOL "Controversial?"  They just got off making a 2D Mario Platformer on the Console, Ian.  You find that "controversial?"  Didn't you want that?  Making money is "controversial?"  So the criticism here is "some people disagree with them?"  The only thing really "controversial" I see is that Nintendo was a huge success when all the press and third parties bet against them.

Here are hard facts

Oh boy a list.

- Nintendo decided to target a more casual market this generation than they had in the past.

Ugh you bone it on the first one.  This isn't a "fact," this is an opinion.  And much like when they said Nintendo was targeting "casuals and Girls" with the DS, it's not even that true as an opinion.

- The Wii hardware is significantly inferior to the other consoles.  Nintendo has publicly admitted they did this on purpose and that part of this was to make a profit off of the hardware sold.

Yes they do want to make a profit.  Such things are not unheard of in videogames (maybe this generation it is.)  So the problem is... Nintendo designs their product to bring in a little profit?  They even do this with the DS, Ian!  They even did it with the superior GC, and they were railed for not having online in every game (Yet Sony got away with no centralized online AND inferior graphics last time).

- Nintendo has ported several Gamecube games to the Wii with motion controls.  These games were released during a time that no new Wii product was being released from Nintendo.

This is true, but of course they were released during a time no new Wii product was being "released."  They aren't tech wizards able to fabricate games in days.

- The majority of third party games announced for the PS3 and Xbox 360 are never released for the Wii.

Whose fault is this?  Is it even possible it could be their fault and not Nintendo's?  Don't blame the victim.  It isn't classy.

- After stating publicly that they hoped the Wii remote would be the "new controller standard" Nintendo released an add-on to their controller that improves it's functionality.

Aww that is weak, Ian.  Come ON.  There are always going to be controller improvements,  You could say this about ANYTHING.  "Sony SAYS that they were setting a 'new standard of graphics' with the PS2.  But those fiends UPGRADED the graphics on the PS3.  Where to now, Sony?  Hmm?  Off to hypocrite-ville on the the Greek island of Hypocrete?!  And Microsoft... I thought Xbox Live was supposed to be the 'robust, perfect online experience.'  What's with adding achievement point to everything?  Fiends!  Fiends I say!"

All of that stuff is true.  All of those could be used to support rational and logical criticism of the Wii and/or Nintendo themselves.  And yet it's pretty common to have people try to defend every single one of them.

Yeah Ian, it's called debate.  Nobody has to just swallow IGN's or your vision of things, nor must everybody internalize the standards of either.  If anything, I've found even having reasons to merely impartially "explain" from a financial or strategic standpoint any of those would place me with the fanboys, somehow.  And somehow making profit is one of those "hard facts" that "fanboys must accept."  That's lunacy.  Of course they're making money.  They have several successful products and games.  Dur.

I think the problem is Nintendo has put themselves in such a situation where there is too much criticism

It takes two to tango Ian.  Nintendo's been heavily criticized since the N64 for God's sake.  Do a controlled experiment.  You claim that Nintendo has heavily changed.  Let's accept that they have.  Did the Criticize the DS?  Yes.  Did IGN criticize the GC?  Yes.  Did they criticize the N64?  Yes, very much so.  So if Nintendo actually HAS changed, then IGN will heavily criticize Nintendo no matter what, because that's the only constant.

It's almost like Nintendo's not the problem, isn't it?  And this again, forces one to accept that simply the act of criticizing is based on valid assumptions.  If it didn't seem like IGN and most of the press in general had an ax to grind, you might have a point, but some of their criticisms are just as unfounded if not more so than any fanboy ramblings (and they get PAID, too.)

So when you criticize Nintendo now you get more doublethink "Nintendo is always right" crap.

Once again, your criticism is not guaranteed to be swallowed.  It will have to stand up to scrutiny and a "sniff test," so to speak.  And you even said it yourself, IGN's mostly to blame because they were criticizing Nintendo left and right forever, for all sorts of stupid ****.  Even if they did have valid criticisms, they've ruined their own editorial reputations with "Kart skins" and doom and gloom soothsaying that nobody will take THEM seriously.  Even when they say something indefensible like "you're all brainwashed." 

So the only people left to agree with them are the deranged IGN fanboys because normal people don't like the insinuation that they are brainwashed.  And it makes it hard to debate them because they'll be screaming that "IGN is right" or his concern-trolling cousin "they have a point" and nobody actually wants to see if IGN actually was correct in calling their dissenters "brainwashed."

The less reasons you give people to criticize you the easier it is to defend you so you attract more rational people to your side.  The crazies also don't expose themselves as such as much because they too can defend you in a rational way without having to resort to huge leaps of logic to support their view.

The problem is you haven't set why anybody should accept your terms and facts (including the LOL "controller standard one") as a given.  And since nobody will debate any of these without resorting to "fanboy" (the video game forum equivalent of Godwin's law), anybody with a logical opinion in defense or merely an explanatory role will get shouted down for "supporting the controversial Nintendo."

Remember, they tried the SAME THING with the DS.  They tried to bury it under "minigame" "casual" "for girls" "no third parties" and labeled anybody who had one or liked its games a "Nintendo fanboy" and look where that got them.

[vudu]

OH GOD LET THE QUOTE RAPING STOP

Seriously; do either of you expect to win this argument?  Can't we just agree to disagree and move on?

[Deguello]

I dunno vudu, it's seems pretty civil.  Is robust, yet civil argument not allowed on NWR now?  Must all of our posts be bite-sized snark/troll attempts so nobody has a rational thought again?

[vudu]

My eyes begin to blur after staring as walls of text for what seems like hours on end.  I'm guess I'm just not cut out for reading anything longer than 3 sentences.

I must go lie down now; my head hurts.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

My eyes begin to blur after staring as walls of text for what seems like hours on end.

Message boards have text.  Pull it together, moderator.

[Ian Sane]

LOL "Controversial?"  They just got off making a 2D Mario Platformer on the Console, Ian.  You find that "controversial?"  Didn't you want that?  Making money is "controversial?"  So the criticism here is "some people disagree with them?"  The only thing really "controversial" I see is that Nintendo was a huge success when all the press and third parties bet against them.

Come on.  Everyone knows the Wii is polarizing.  Even among Nintendo fans there is considerable difference of opinion.  That makes it controversial.
 

 Ugh you bone it on the first one.  This isn't a "fact," this is an opinion.

No it's a fact.  Nintendo themselves have stated they've gone after a new audience with the Wii.  They talked about non-gamers and the blue ocean group and all that.  Maybe you just don't like me saying "casual"?  Fine, use whatever term you want.  The FACT is Nintendo is targetting a different group with the Wii.  I didn't say they're ONLY targetting that group.  THAT is opinion.  But them targetting this new group is a fact.
 
And I'm not going to respond to each defense you have against each of those items.  That's not the point.  What I'm saying is that these are facts about the Wii and they are common sources of criticism and Nintendo fans have to understand that people have a problem with those.  You give a justification for Nintendo releasing lesser hardware.  That's a sound justification but people are going to dislike it and Nintendo fans have to understand that.  It's incredibly obvious to me that someone would have a rational reason for not being cool with these points and yet there's an almost "how dare thee" response to it.  No one ever says "yeah Nintendo did this because of that and it doesn't bug me but I can see why someone else would be bothered by it."
 
Regarding the third party thing, that's a fact about the Wii and is a common complaint about the Wii.  I said "logical criticism of the Wii and/or Nintendo themselves."  "And/or" is the key.  The third party thing is a problem with the Wii.  I didn't say it was Nintendo's fault, for that would be opinion, but it is something about the Wii and it's something that would hurt someone's opinion of it.
 

 It takes two to tango Ian.  Nintendo's been heavily criticized since the N64 for God's sake.  Do a controlled experiment.  You claim that Nintendo has heavily changed.  Let's accept that they have.  Did the Criticize the DS?  Yes.  Did IGN criticize the GC?  Yes.  Did they criticize the N64?  Yes, very much so.  So if Nintendo actually HAS changed, then IGN will heavily criticize Nintendo no matter what, because that's the only constant.

Yeah and I feel Nintendo has been criticized since the N64 justifiably.  Your argument assumes that Nintendo changing is automatically a good thing.  Why can't Nintendo change from something worthy of criticism to something else worthy of cristicism?  This is what is frustrating - the assumption that Nintendo will be bitched about no matter what.  Does that not promote the idea of brainwashed Nintendo fanboys?  Is it not possible that Nintendo has changed but not in a way to address the issues people had with them in the first place?  Who's doing it first?  Those that say "you're brainwashed" or those that say "you bitch no matter what"?
 
For me the whole situation is that Nintendo was shitting the bed with the existing videogame market so they focused on this new market that would not have the same concerns.  They deflected criticism not by addressing but by skirting past it and finding someone who wouldn't complain.  And in this scenario how can anyone say that Nintendo changed and we all still bitch at them for kicks?
 

 Remember, they tried the SAME THING with the DS.  They tried to bury it under "minigame" "casual" "for girls" "no third parties" and labeled anybody who had one or liked its games a "Nintendo fanboy" and look where that got them.

And they don't say that so much anymore because the DS got its **** together.

[Stogi]

It's been a year and it's literally the exact same argument from both sides. I, for once, agree with vudu.

I think you guys just like to argue.

[Peachylala]

Arguments are the basis of entertainment.

[mac<censored>]

Did I mention, Twilight Princess rules!

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

... WHY, YOU-- !

[broodwars]

http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1055789p1.html

Oh boy...here we go again.  There's so much utter FAIL in this roundtable discussion that it's difficult to believe IGN's not just trolling for hits these days.  Apparently, according to IGN, the reason that M-rated games don't sell on Wii is because Nintendo focused on casual games for the platform, and that the games use motion control.  It's not because the M-rated games not named Silent Hill or RE4 have been at best mediocre so far or that these titles usually get next to no advertising or anything...

I especially had to facepalm at the guy from IGN Guides who says he's planning on trading in his Wii version of Silent Hill for the PS2 one...when the game was built for the Wii.

[mac<censored>]

http://wii.ign.com/articles/105/1055789p1.html

...
I especially had to facepalm at the guy from IGN Guides who says he's planning on trading in his Wii version of Silent Hill for the PS2 one...when the game was built for the Wii.

... and the wii hardware is significantly more powerful/better than the PS2 (I'm not exactly a graphics whore, but PS2 games are just generally ugly, despite the vast amount of effort that developers put into it).

[Mop it up]

No More Heroes and MadWorld were both stylized action/adventure, rated Mature, and critically acclaimed by the big name reviewers. This sounds like something that would sell WELL on the other systems. FAR better than it sold on the Wii. But that's just my opinion.

[broodwars]

No More Heroes and MadWorld were both stylized action/adventure, rated Mature, and critically acclaimed by the big name reviewers. This sounds like something that would sell WELL on the other systems. FAR better than it sold on the Wii. But that's just my opinion.

No doubt those games probably have a bigger audience on the HD systems than on the Wii, though I think people would find those games mediocre on any platform.  I just take issue with the theme of this editorial that the Wii is where Mature games go to die by its very nature, and that it's all Nintendo's fault.

[Mop it up]

I think only an M-rated game in an established franchise is going to have a chance at selling on Wii, and this is why Call of Duty posts decent numbers. But those numbers don't really compare to what the other versions sell, so releasing an exclusive M-rated game on Wii simply isn't worth it.

[Deguello]

Alright I'll end my speil with this, because, unfortunately, I agree in Kashogi, in that I get tired of arguing with people who just want to argue and be anti-fans and all that.

And they don't say that so much anymore because the DS got its **** together.

Or, more likely, they couldn't sling that stuff around anymore without getting a reader revolt.  And when did the DS "get its **** together?"  Did it magically become more powerful than the PSP?  Did the DS suddenly begin to have social network services and digital distribution?  These were things they complained about before.  Why don't they now?  Because they'd get swarmed with angry emails and lose even more readers, that's why.

No it's a fact.  Nintendo themselves have stated they've gone after a new audience with the Wii.  They talked about non-gamers and the blue ocean group and all that.  Maybe you just don't like me saying "casual"?  Fine, use whatever term you want.  The FACT is Nintendo is targetting a different group with the Wii.  I didn't say they're ONLY targetting that group.  THAT is opinion.  But them targetting this new group is a fact.

Didn't you want them to target more mainstream consumers and not just Nintendo fans a couple of years ago?  And now you're bitching them out for doing it?  I just hope IGN stays consistent and Calls out Sony and MS for "selling out" to these same people because that's who they're aiming at now with their Natals and Sony Wands.

Yeah and I feel Nintendo has been criticized since the N64 justifiably.  Your argument assumes that Nintendo changing is automatically a good thing

No my argument is that, accepting that Nintendo has changed completely from a Nintendo fanservicing company to one more in tune with customers at large, they were bitched at the entire way, sometimes for completely contradictory reasons, like being behind in the marketplace and then being ahead in the marketplace and "not deserving it."  For not innovating enough and then for innovating too much.  And my favorite, for being failures and then being successes.

You give a justification for Nintendo releasing lesser hardware.  That's a sound justification but people are going to dislike it and Nintendo fans have to understand that.

I don't seem to remember IGN's Sony channel having lengthy podcasts about the power of the PS2 and calling their owners "brainwashed."  Or owners of the PS2 having to "justify" releasing hardware that was appreciably weaker then the Dreamcast.  What did Sony intentionally release weak hardware and profit off of it?  Those FIENDS.

This is what is frustrating - the assumption that Nintendo will be bitched about no matter what. Does that not promote the idea of brainwashed Nintendo fanboys?

It's doubly aggravating when you have to read tired editorials with the same crticisms them for years.  And again, like you said, IGN is to blame for this, because they wasted their credibility whining about "kart skins" "casuals" "Kiddy" and "Next Virtual Boy" that most people don't pay much attention to them anymore, no matter what they say, valid or not.  And it's interesting you should say "promote the idea" of brainwashed Nintendo fanboys.  Who is doing the brainwashing?  Nintendo by having quasi-unpopular stances based on the idea that they don't want to lose billions of dollars to be popular on select internet forums, or IGN wasting thier time with kart skins and calling their readers "brainwashed" for disagreeing with them?  The "brainwashing" may not even be Nintendo's doing, see.

Alright, that's all...

Oh dear God, IGN did it again in the meantime, didn't they?  Great.  I'll probably not comment on this, except to say that, on the topic of M-rated games on Nintendo consoles, a lot of hay was made when GTA: Chinatown Wars on the DS "flopped" according to Pachter and the rest of the games media, and they spouted similar lines about "mature" games and Nintendo.  Flashforward to a PSP port of the game, and it tanked, like really badly.  Selling like 14-19k for its entire month of release.  So far the DS version has outsold it by 20 times.  Somehow GTA: Chinatown Wars is no longer an important title to discuss, eh?

And "M-rated" debates are as tired as the hills and even today they mean little as apparently most adults buy E-rated games, so it says nothing about userbase anymore.  *yawn*  This isn't even a new trolling method.

[KDR_11k]

it's difficult to believe IGN's not just trolling for hits these days.

They outright said that they made the podcast because the editorial brought them so much traffic.


Reading the intro bit of the roundtable, I noticed that they talk about mature in more senses than just blood and gore. Well, what's more mature than Wii Fit, not escaping from the real world but facing your problems and actively working against them? An art game may have an obscure message but Wii Fit has a clear message: You are unhealthy and need to work on yourself. Philosophizing about the ills of society is one thing, actually facing your own faults is much harder.

[D_Average]

If you read the comments on the Wii is lazy article, clearly the vast majority say somthing like " right on, I've got a Wii too and I couldn't agree more.". So are they really trolling?  Not really. Just delivering the content their audience wants. It's the loud small minority that get upset about it. The same small minority that crowned The Conduit pre release and bought the few copies it managed to sell. 

IGN doesn't haven't an agenda to kill the Wii. Hell they  basically spawned out of N64.com.  IGN is an equal console offender.  I follow the PS3 channel pretty regularly and I've heard countless jokes about Home, voice chat on PSN, PSP Go and it's online browser. And doesn't IGN call their 360 show "Three Red Lights?".  If the editors think a product contains an issue, they come right out and say it, regardless of which corporation designed it.

[KDR_11k]

I think they actually brought non-Nintendo staff on the controversial NVC, i.e. people who prefer the other consoles. The other podcasts are done by the teams that cover those consoles, they aren't nearly as negative on their own systems. Hell, at one point the discussion leader asked the other staff if they had played Galaxy. You'd think that would be a given.

It's the loud small minority that get upset about it. The same small minority that crowned The Conduit pre release and bought the few copies it managed to sell.

Wait, I distinctly recall IGN being one of the biggest proponents of The Conduit.

[broodwars]

I think they actually brought non-Nintendo staff on the controversial NVC, i.e. people who prefer the other consoles. The other podcasts are done by the teams that cover those consoles, they aren't nearly as negative on their own systems. Hell, at one point the discussion leader asked the other staff if they had played Galaxy. You'd think that would be a given.

Hmmm...that sounds similar to something I might have said...

[Peachylala]

If you read the comments on the Wii is lazy article, clearly the vast majority say somthing like " right on, I've got a Wii too and I couldn't agree more.". So are they really trolling?  Not really. Just delivering the content their audience wants. It's the loud small minority that get upset about it. The same small minority that crowned The Conduit pre release and bought the few copies it managed to sell.

Nope, IGNorant Gaming Network has gathered IGNorant gamers. It's the best of both worlds.

Hell, at one point the discussion leader asked the other staff if they had played Galaxy. You'd think that would be a given.

Galaxy has color, not space marines and no nanomachines. They wouldn't have played it regardless of how good it is.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

It's the loud small minority that get upset about it. The same small minority that crowned The Conduit pre release and bought the few copies it managed to sell.

Wait, I distinctly recall IGN being one of the biggest proponents of The Conduit.

It's clear the brainwashed Wii visitors are the audience IGN has been and is supposed to be catering to.

[Peachylala]

Quoting my favorite posts.

The Wii definitely needs more M games. If they want to get morehardcore gamers though they need to upgrade to HD and get more features.

m-rated games don't flourish on the wii brecause first-person-shooters don't flourish and suck on the wii.

LOL...keep bashing the Wii for hits, IGN.
 
 Rather than make an article bashing NINTENDO (?) for 3rd partymature games not selling, why don't you start bashing the 3rd partieswho put out mature on-rails and niche-styled crap on the Wii withlittle-to-no advertising - making them DESTINED to fail.

I just love IGN editors' liberal use of the words ''mature'' and ''hardcore''. You people are embarrasing, really.

And these are all on the first page. =D

[Ian Sane]

Regarding the idea that M-rated games go to the Wii to die, I think that's stupid.  I don't think any third party really gives the Wii a fair shot so to come to any conclusions based on what's been released doesn't make any sense.  You can't evaluate the skills of players in a rigged game.

We don't really know the exact reason for the Wii's third party situation.  I think the huge hardware difference is a big part of it but you really figure that the market leading console would attract some more big exclusives, no?  But anyway I can't think of ANY Wii third party game, mature or not, that I think would have been a big deal on the PS360 and bombed on the Wii.