Author Topic: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?  (Read 30990 times)

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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2019, 12:10:39 AM »
I wonder how the game would be accepted if this was a brand new IP.  The story would trigger eyerolls but wouldn't be seen as character assassination and the gameplay would probably be accepted as its own thing.  I still don't think I would like this game but I would chalk that more to personal preference.  It probably would generally be considered okay, not great, but certainly wouldn't be so infamous.

If Other M was a new IP it would have been considered a decent niche game like Pandora's Tower.  A lot of people consider Pandora's Tower to be Zelda-like game with its focus on dungeons and puzzles along with the combat.  But if you were to replace the 2 main characters of that game with Link and Zelda and make it part of the Zelda franchise I can guarantee people would have lost their minds.  Suddenly every flaw gets magnified and it becomes a race to see who could be more offended by the game.

Of course the funny thing is, critically Other M was pretty well represented.  It has a 79% average on Gameranking and Metacritic with a lot of 7-8's across the board.  Most reviewers were pretty fair in saying the good and bad, but still finding it mostly enjoyable for what it was.  It's a far cry from actual trash like Sonic 2006 many on the internet like to lump it with.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2019, 09:49:11 PM »
The most frustrating thing about Other M to me is how absurdly close it was to being something special. As is, it's fine. I actually like Other M. I'm playing through it right now for this retrospective and so far, the gameplay is as fun as I remember it (the storytelling, however, is somehow worse... more on that later). I'm disappointed that I don't love it because I could have; it was almost there. The game isn't fundamentally bad; it's just hampered by some of the most bafflingly infuriating choices.

1. Sideways Wii Remote controls are fucking stupid. Other M controls as well as it could under those circumstances, but this was a bad choice. Full stop. Wii Remote and Nunchuk was easily the way to go, and Sakamoto made a booboo. It happens. No one bats 1.000. Miyamoto produced Wii Music.

2. The Where's Waldo sections are similarly fucking stupid. Take those out and the game is instantly better. Not a huge deal.

3. The item-gating is not handled well in this game. The authorization thing could have worked. However, it does not work largely for characterization reasons. Adam is one-dimensional; he's so cold to Samus. Dial it back. Make it more "I'm not angry; I'm just disappointed" and it would have worked better. Samus would have more of a reason to still want Adam's approval. As it stands, I'm having a hard time wondering why Samus would ever listen to him. She made the choice to leave and be a bounty hunter. Not following orders from someone who is being a dick is not only a more reasonable option but fits a pre-established fact about the character.

The Varia Suit authorization is still hilariously poorly handled. There are ways to have improved this. Just have Samus find it. As is, she enters that one room in Sector 3/Pyrosphere and is just like, "Well, I guess I'll just die now."

This is a very easy fix. As stated, just have Samus find it.
  • Adam tells Samus to get the hell out of Sector 3 when she starts (and because she is) literally dying.
  • Samus stubbornly says she can do it.
  • Adam reluctantly agrees and even encourages Samus, taking her by surprise.
  • Samus eventually finds the Varia Suit.

This would accomplish two things. One, act as a good character moment between Samus and Adam. Players would start to see Adam's soften a bit and trust Samus to know what her limits are. This could be the first time players begin to see signs of reconciliation between them. Two, nix that dumbass nonsense in which Samus decides to slowly die until she gets authorization from a man not to.

4. The CG cutscenes would have been cool in 1997. In 2010, they did nothing except waste Nintendo's money. They're try-hard and overly stylized. The character models were good enough to do everything the story called for.

5. The story itself is fine. It's about as good as it can be when the previous game chronologically begins with: "The last Metroid is in captivity. The galaxy is at peace..." then ends with the last Metroid hella exploding.

Let's step back a moment. Look, I like Metroid Fusion, but it cheated. Cloning is often lazy storytelling. It's a stupid trope. Y'all can do better. Reboot the series. Call it something else. Focus on Samus. Whatever. Sakamoto painted himself into a corner in 1994 by killing the series' namesake then just insisted on a singular canon. No one would have cared if Fusion wasn't Metroid IV. The reality is that it is, and that was problematic in 2002. Eight years later, Sakamoto further complicates things by placing a story in between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion which unnecessarily causes narrative issues in the latter. Other M fundamentally robs Metroid Fusion of perhaps its most important narrative addition to the series: The Galactic Federation is cloning Metroids. It essentially replaces Metroid Fusion as Metroid IV, rendering Metroid Fusion kind of just... there.

There are easy fixes too if Sakamoto really wanted Other M in the main continuity:
  • Take out the hideously on-the-nose "The Baby" stuff (which Sakamoto should have done anyway because it's bad).
  • Place Other M before Metroid II. This has the benefit of putting more time between Adam's death and Metroid Fusion. Yeah, I know the Prime games are placed there too. Doesn't matter. The Prime games also cause narrative problems so it's easier to just consider them a separate series even if Nintendo doesn't.
  • Don't include Metroids, Mother Brain, or Space Pirates at all. Create a one-off villain. Samus responds to a distress signal. Adam and the team are already there. Maybe they could find out the villain is trying to steal technology that allows Metroids to be more easily corralled and controlled, making them more effective bio-weapons (it's a prototype, doesn't work 100% etc. etc.). This could lead directly to the Galactic Federation hiring Samus to destroy all Metroids on SR-388 (Yes, I'm essentially re-writing most of the plot).
  • Treat it as a side-story which is what it was supposed to be. Make it about Samus and Adam's relationship, their reconciliation, and finally Adam's sacrifice. It should be supplementary at best, just to give more backstory to Metroid Fusion. No one would need this information to enjoy the main series, but it'd be there and it wouldn't hurt anything.

6. The main issue with the story is its presentation. Samus' narration is bad. It isn't just that there's a lot of voice-over narration. It's that the voice-over narration is grotesquely overbearing and on-the-nose. Samus narrates everything she fucking does and thinks. There's no subtlety, no sub-text. Just text, and that's bad storytelling. It's obvious this story was not written by a writer.

There are a bunch of characters, most of which are barely distinguishable from each other. And they do this dumbass thing in which they often open their visors/helmets just to show their faces. What the **** is that? Get that Spider-Man 3 **** out of here. One of the first things Anthony says is "Remember me?" No. I haven't the slightest clue who the **** you are.

That's it for now. I will continue playing Other M.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 04:44:08 PM by Adrock »

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2019, 10:17:26 PM »
I don't have the time to replay this, but...

..I liked it.  I liked it better than any of the Prime games, from an overall gameplay perspective.

I had a lot of fun with it.  The storyline was terrible.  The voice acting was terrible (but we have at least been told the reason that happened).

I didn't mind the authorization system.  Story wise, it was freaking stupid.  Gameplay wise, it wasn't really *that* different than finding new powerups as the game progresses.

I get why they did it.  It makes no real sense that after Metroid, Samus is back to base for Metroid II.  Then, at the start of Super Metroid, she once again is back to base.

It's like she's all "Well, that mission is over.  Guess I'll never, ever need these cool weapons and armor upgrades I found.  But if I do, surely the weird alien bird race left some hidden on whatever random planet I end up on years later.  Fingers crossed."

I feel like, if they wanted to build a storyline into this, it should have been something about the type of energy the suit emits when using various weapons/powers and that Adam needs to authorize them individually so they won't blow up the shipment negatively affect the ongoing experiments they have on the ship.  Him just flopping his dick around really seemed silly.  It was like they wanted to give a story reason for the loss of powers between games, but forgot to make that storyline make sense.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2019, 03:12:56 PM »
I'm going to be staying out of this one which is a very good idea for me, but this should be fun to watch!

Offline Adrock

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2019, 08:22:54 AM »
So when are we doing this? ejamer mentioned in the other thread that he completed Other M. I just finished the game 100% last night, and I have a lot of feelingz.

Offline ejamer

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2019, 10:05:23 AM »
Yeah, who's still playing before we start chatting?   ;D

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2019, 10:23:06 AM »
Go ahead and chat it up. I'll stay out of this thread for now. Had scheduled to finally dive into the game this weekend. Been playing a whole bunch of other games instead because I'm still a big 3DS user. I'll catch up here once I'm done. Don't let my slowness to act on this hold y'all back.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2019, 11:24:14 PM »
Yeah go right ahead. I plan to get more into this next month anyways.

The immediate comparison I have that comes to mind is Federation Force. Both of these games are sort of this weird pseudo spin-off thing to the Metroid series (with FF being much more spin-offy than Other M, which is allegedly a mainline entry) but the difference is that Federation Force succeeded in being what it wanted to be, to the point where it is honestly one of my favorite experiences on 3DS, whereas while I'm not too far into other M, based on what I've played of it I feel safe in saying that Other M won't be nearly as successful as far as achieving what it set out to be which is this narrative focused 2d-3d metroid hybrid.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 11:31:55 PM by pokepal148 »



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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2019, 04:49:34 AM »
So, I've taken the plunge on this game and finally got going into it tonight. I had a Game Over in a fight against two worm type creatures in Sector 1 and that felt like that was a good time to take a rest anyways after going at it 3 or 4 hours straight. Seems to be that the game will be divided by three big sections based on the main hub elevator. Chances are I'll take a bit longer to complete it because I have a nasty habit of wanting to take things slow and carefully investigate every room no matter how plain.

Even though I'm probably still an early ways into the game, I totally get why it seems to get people talking. There's something for everybody to love and hate. ;D It's a weird thing to say when I've been playing a bunch of Game Boy, SNES and 3DS games lately but are the graphics good for this game? Even though I've been playing some older games that aren't as capable of graphics like the Wii, I've also played some Wii U and Switch games this year too and I guess I've grown accustomed to the look of HD graphics when playing a game on my TV. There's just this jaggedness and slight blur to all the edges and outlines of characters and objects. I feel like Metroid Prime 3 still had better graphics but I need to see that again now to know for sure.

So far, I don't hate the story. I'm semi-curious to see what it will lead to yet at the same time it also feels like the weakest element and if the flashbacks suddenly stopped, I wouldn't miss them. I'm more interested in the here and now of the mission and what is happening on this station. My biggest complaint about the story cutscenes are just the generic look of them all. Retro crafted some really detailed and fascinating worlds with the Prime games. So far, Tecmo has just come up with a forgettable city of the future filled mostly with characters standing around and thinking but hardly interacting. Sometimes, it's just black backgrounds with faces or characters further making the cutscenes uninspiring. It just seems to be exposition by Samus like she's in a Psychiatrist's Office lying on the couch and telling them about her past.

The game I was most likely going to play before getting sidetracked by Game Boy Virtual Games and pokepal creating a Retrospective for this title because others were interested in talking about it also was Super Paper Mario. As I play this game, I can't help but think of it. Even though I haven't played it, I've always been intrigued by and wanted to check out its hook of taking a 2D level / world and shifting that perspective into a sort of 3D space. I wasn't expecting Other M to sort of be doing the same thing. The last couple Metroid games I've played are Prime 3 again around early 2016 and Samus Returns around Sept. / Oct. 2017. Other M feels like a combination of the two games and styles. There's a lot about that which I like. It hasn't completely won me over but that's partly because Other M just doesn't quite seem to have the level of polish that the Prime series have or even the 2D Metroid games from Super Metroid on. Yet, I'm not sure I'd want to go back to the normal Prime style now. It's early yet and maybe by the end of the game it will have worn out its welcome but one thought that's been going through my head while playing is I wouldn't mind Prime 4 taking cues from this game and continuing this style of 2D/3D switching. My biggest complaint is just being unable to move when in the 1st person 3D perspective. After the Prime games, I'm so used to moving when looking through Samus's visor that my mind still seems to struggle with this change. Moreover, as long as Retro still has the polish they've shown with the 3D Prime and 2D DKC games then they might be able to make something very special by building on all they've done so far.

Still, another thing going through my head is that I feel like I've played a game which allowed for this sort of 2D/3D switching. It finally came to me as I was typing this and I'm pretty sure the game I'm thinking of is Batman: Vengeance on GameCube of all things. Yes, Batman: Vengeance was built more as a 3D game however the game had a rather fixed game view and the 3D levels weren't always that wide. You could switch between the first and third person perspective. Here's a link of the game:


The BnM required link

That's video of the whole game. You don't have to see it all. However, if one were to skip to the 58:40 moment then they'd get a pretty good glimpse of what I'm talking about as the game highlights some of the shifting perspective action. Unlike Other M, you could still move in 1st person perspective in Vengeance.


And then there is the combat. I haven't even got into that yet or how I can't help but make comparison between this game and Metroid Fusion also. I suppose that will have to wait for later now. It's late and I've got more to play so maybe next time I'll dive a bit more into that with other thoughts as I encounter more of the game.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2019, 08:43:12 AM »
The different perspectives in this game are an interesting choice.

I know that many people didn't like how it was handled, but I actually thought that giving players unlimited missiles (to eliminate grinding) was a good choice - and that making players use a first-person view where they couldn't move was a good balance to prevent them from being overpowered. The time it takes to shift perspective and aim and charge your missile ensures it's never a primary weapon, and also gives the player ability to control their shots or examine the environment very precisely if the area is calm enough to give them time. For me this worked well.

What I really didn't like were the frozen-on-the-spot pixel hunts where they wanted you to actively observe some minor detail in the environment. These served no purpose, and should've just been handled with a cut-scene instead breaking the flow o the game the way they did. Even worse were the slow-paced sections of tank-control "investigation" where Samus was forced to plod through empty rooms. Maybe slowing the game down was an attempt to introduce tension or force the player to appreciate their surroundings...? Or maybe it was just a remnant of previous development tests that they didn't have the heart to cut (and really should have).

Also, I'm curious about the control. pokepal148 didn't sound sold on them, and Adrock seemed flat-out annoyed... but I really like the Wii remote-only controls for this game!  It took a bit of time to get a feel for how movement was handled. After an hour with the game, everything was smooth and responsive though. The auto-aim and directional shifts were very smooth, Samus felt in control at all times, and the simplicity of the controls were a breath of fresh air in an era where many games feel overburdened with "moar stuff" - the only real point of contention I could see was pointing at the screen for missiles, but as mentioned above it didn't bother me even if it was a bit gimmicky.

The one thing that I was less keen on regarding controls was the quick dodge action. There is no penalty for moving at the wrong time or in the wrong direction, so you can choose to just rapidly tap any direction for movement and wait for the enemy attacks to miss before unleashing devastating counter-attacks. There is no skill here, and it saps the fun out of a combat system that is otherwise pretty decent. I'm not suggesting that should've been remove entirely - the dodge/counter system is a good addition to the game - but that it should have had some risk built in. (Think of reflecting beams with your shield in Breath of the Wild: hard to pull off correctly, but extremely satisfying when you do. Then imagine that they change the controls it so that all you had to do was rapidly tap a button and it would work 100% of the time. Would it still be as satisfying? Heck, no.)

I guess the other thing is that getting a good feel for where you are on the map is a bit tricky initially - but part of that (for me) was due to the gating, and how you were really being funneled in specific directions until almost the very end of the game when most of the ship became available. Although I expect gating in a Metroid game, I also prefer it when you can choose to explore without being led by the nose the whole time... although that having multiple branches you can explore and/or sequence breaking options available seems to be less common as the series goes on. Or is that just my imagination?

Anyway, I'd gladly play another game that controlled like Metroid: Other M. The mix of 2D controls and 3D action was surprisingly satisfying, and quickly intuitive which is something I appreciate when the whole game lasts under 10 hours.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2019, 09:48:14 PM »
I edited my earlier post for clarity. *deep breath* Let's do this.

Metroid: Other M is still decent, but it's worse than it was nine years ago. The game hasn't aged gracefully. Its faults are even more pronounced now. Many Nintendo games are timeless; Other M isn't one of them. I used to defend Other M by saying it's a decent game but bad for a Metroid game. That hasn't changed. Some things in the game are bad because they're bad. Other things are bad because the game is tied to an established IP and leans way too hard into it without understanding why they worked before yet don’t work here. Remove the ties to the Metroid IP and the developers would have to put something else there instead.

For example, the grapple beam is mostly useless. One boss fight uses it fairly well. Otherwise, it's unintuitive in 3D. You have to stop, go into Search View mode, aim, and lock on to the grapple point, and if there are multiple grapple points, Samus will grapple automatically with the push of a button. That requires zero skill, and the grapple beam feels as if it's there because Metroid. The grapple beam worked in 2D because it was instantaneous. It felt natural because the game gave you more control and the perspective lent itself to the kind of item it was. In Super Metroid, you can even kill weaker enemies if you're just putzing around with it. You can also cheese a whole boss with the grapple beam, and the game never tells you it can do that. It was mostly used for gating areas you weren't supposed to access yet. Once you get Space Jump, you don't even have to use the grapple beam again. Other M similarly uses it to gate certain areas except you still have to use it when revisiting those areas because a ledge is too high and Space Jump doesn't grant height anymore. Using the grapple beam always feels like an inconvenience in Other M. You have to stop progressing just to use it, and it was a chore every time.

The transition when using the grapple beam is smoother in the Prime games. Additionally, in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Samus could grapple and shoot at the same time. Still not that fun, but I appreciate the effort in trying something new with the item. In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, she could use the grapple beam to rip shields off enemies. Retro Studios attempted to adapt with the change in dimensions. Team Ninja didn't.

Other M introduced a completely new game mechanic at the very end of the epilogue just so Zero Suit Samus could be playable for less than five minutes. First, y'all didn’t need to put that in the game. Second, it didn’t even make sense. Is there any reason Samus couldn’t escape the Bottle Ship holding Adam's helmet while wearing the Gravity Suit? Also, shenanigans on the Gravity Suit not being purple in Other M. Sakamoto was so attached with tossing in Metroid things, but the one time it actually makes sense, he was like, "Nah..."

I'm not here to argue with ejamer on the controls. If you liked it, you liked it. I'm glad you liked it, and it isn't my desire or intention to try to change anyone's mind. That said, I flat-out did not like the controls. It felt almost hostile toward the player for Sakamoto to be so adamant about the controls. I wonder if we would have gotten sideways Wii Remote controls if Other M wasn't a Metroid game. Sakamoto called the control scheme "Famicon Control Plus". It's meant to harken back to the NES/Famicom days and thus the original Metroid. None of it really worked for me. I just dealt with it. Samus was a sitting duck whenever you wanted to shoot missiles which became even more problematic when you had to charge to shoot Super Missiles. Waggling to SenseMove while in Search View didn't always work making Search View feel even more inhibited. In larger areas, due to the D-pad, it was hard to get Samus to run in the direction I wanted her to thus requiring stopping altogether and repositioning Samus. Additionally, Samus would adjust while running sometimes. Other times, she wouldn’t and just ran into a wall. The auto-aiming worked except when it didn't. Sometimes I'd face an enemy's direction and Samus would completely miss. If only there was a lock-on button except there weren't enough buttons on the Wii Remote to do this.

The story and its presentation are objectively bad. Sakamoto flat-out ignored basic tenets of storytelling. Show, don't tell is Writing 101. Video games are an interactive audio-visual medium. Other M has fully voiced cutscenes, and apparently, Sakamoto's best move was to just have Samus tell us what she was thinking which is both frustrating and exhausting. Samus' monologues in Metroid Fusion worked because they were brief and uncommon, and there was very little voice acting in the game. Relying on narration in Other M for so much of its storytelling is bad writing. Samus was also intentionally written to be mostly emotionless. If you write and direct correctly, dialog, tone, body language, and sub-text communicate emotions to the viewer.

Also, since this always comes up, the PTSD scene with Ridley was bad, is still bad, and will always be bad. I have a lot of experience with PTSD. I promise the way PTSD is portrayed in Other M isn't how it works. Based on the quick flash to child Samus, she may have dissociated, but even that wasn't handled well. A lot of movies, books, games etc. get PTSD wrong. Manchester by the Sea is one of the more recent movies I've seen that fairly accurately portrays how debilitating PTSD can be. If you're curious, check a look.

(Ridley looks stupid in Other M.)

Anyway, being a Metroid game, particularly a canon Metroid game, hurt the narrative especially when it didn’t move the story forward. If you insist on introducing interquels, don't **** with the continuity. As it stands, one (or both) of Other M and Metroid Fusion is really stupid. For example, viewing Other M as one part of a larger series narrative, I'm curious why the Galactic Federation would have the consciousness of a man who conspired against them to destroy Sector 0 of the Bottle Ship and all their fancy biologically engineered Metroids accompany Samus onto the Biologic Space Laboratories research station (which eventually leads to Samus and robot-Adam doing the exact same thing there too). It was as if the Galactic Federation was somehow convinced Samus and Adam wouldn’t destroy a bunch of Metroids so they paired them up again.

There were times when Samus sure did sound like an idiot. Not a great look for the series lead. There was a scene toward the end of Other M in which Samus said, "Wait? Metroid eggs? It can't be!" First, you already saw a Metroid earlier and like, right outside of Sector 0 which housed a bunch of other Metroids, you stupid asshole. Why are you suddenly surprised to see Metroid eggs? If one got out before Adam destroyed Sector 0*, chances are more got out or there are others elsewhere. Second, you also knew the Galactic Federation had been hella cloning everything. That reaction doesn’t even make any sense. One or two of these instances can be overlooked. However, Other M is full of **** like that.

(*Also, Adam shooting Samus from behind first then the Metroid served no purpose. Why did this stupid idiot shoot Samus at all? He endangered her for no reason... goddammit, that made me so angry.)

Other M often felt as if Sakamoto had a checklist of things that need to be in there because this is a Metroid game. And really, it didn't. There's a lot of space to explore in this universe that has nothing to do with Metroids, Space Pirates, Mother Brain etc. As previously stated, the relationship between Samus and Adam could and should have been the core of what Other M's narrative was about. The game touched on it, but what is there wasn’t good. Instead, we got this nonsense about how the governing body in this galaxy decided to clone its sworn enemies in order to create an army of bio-weapons. Why would the Galactic Federation even do that? The Space Pirates are either defeated or largely scattered and non-threatening due to Samus single-handedly hella kicking their asses and the Galactic Federation's big plan was: "Bring 'em back! What could go wrong?" Are you fucking kidding me? What is gained by this plan? It's like Sakamoto couldn’t decide if the Galactic Federation should be stupid, corrupt, stupid and corrupt, or a combination of some are stupid, some are corrupt while others are okay, I guess.

Metroid, Metroid II: The Return of Samus, and Super Metroid work really well as a collective narrative without being narrative-heavy. Even Metroid Fusion works as an epilogue in a "What are the consequences to eradicating an entire species from a planet?" kind of way. That's it. Close the book. That doesn't mean the IP has to die. It just means Sakamoto told the story to its appropriate conclusion which is fine, perfectly acceptable. If he wants to tell more stories within that universe, do something else.

Other M could have been a canon gaiden series. It would have given the developers more room to work with in almost every aspect. Make it a narrative-driven action game without being hampered by what one person thinks should be in a Metroid game. Let the Metroid games be what they are: Exploration-focused, one woman vs. the world adventure games.

Nintendo won't do this, but Other M should be excised from canon. However, the game isn't collectively all bad. I just focused on the bad parts because they stick out more and there are a lot of them. There are things that can be salvaged from the game. I'd welcome revisiting parts of Other M in a game that leans into what the developers seemed to really want to do gameplay-wise: be more action-oriented. Overblast and SenseMove were fun. I agree with ejamer regarding the latter. SenseMove was perhaps too easy to pull off and shortening the window would have made it more of a skillful move. All of this tips the gameplay further away from Metroid which I'm okay with. If they're going to add all this action gameplay, don't go halfway with it. At the same time, don't shoehorn it into a Metroid game. Again, let Metroid be Metroid. Instead, make a legitimate action game starring Samus. Give it to PlatinumGames and tell them they are bound by (almost) nothing. As long as actual Metroid games that play like Metroid games are still being made, no one would bat an eye. It'd kind of be like Hyrule Warriors. Everyone knew a new Zelda was coming out eventually so even if Hyrule Warriors wasn't someone's bag, they were largely like, "Well, this can exist."

The caveat is that actual, honest-to-goodness new 2D Metroid games would need to be made, and Nintendo has not seemed to keen to make those. If it ever does, I'd just start over. The story wasn't so good and deep that it needs to preserved and continued. Just don't "The last Metroid is in captivity. The galaxy is at peace..." and a reboot series can go on forever and ever.

I digress.

I found myself more frustrated playing Other M this time. It's simply riddled with really dumb albeit easily fixable problems. "The Deleter"? Hire a writer. There was a good game in Other M that was dragged down by a lot of poor choices. I guess you can say that about a lot of games. Those faults add up after a while and spoil the actually decent-to-good parts. Furthermore, there were times I felt Wii was not powerful enough to do what the developers seemed to want to do. The larger rooms were mostly empty. It's less impressive once you realize you aren't doing a lot in there. Ultimately, Other M isn't a game I feel I ever need to revisit nor is it a game I think we'll see again. It isn't good enough to get remastered, and if it gets the Metroid Series Remake Treatment®, I can see it being almost a completely different game just to fix some things (e.g. no Wii Remote, the closest thing we have currently are Joy Cons which have an analog stick and more buttons).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 08:34:34 AM by Adrock »

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2019, 10:41:50 PM »
How dare you try to rival me when it comes to walls of text!! That's my thing! Everyone knows that. Get your own thing.  :P
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2019, 12:57:05 AM »
... I'm not here to argue with ejamer on the controls. ...

Nah - I get that the controls won't work for everyone, and I'm glad you took the time to explain why they didn't for you.

Part of my appreciation for the controls is that I'm old, out of practice, and generally not awesome at video games any longer. When I have to figure out more than 3 or 4 buttons (tops) then it takes me a few hours before feeling comfortable that I'll be doing what I want, when I want.  Other M simplified the controls to the point of stupidity - which could create some issues for some, but works perfectly for me. I was able to start playing immediately, and 95% of the time have the character do exactly what I wanted with the remaining 5% of the time being "close enough".

Compromises were made with the controls here, and not everyone will feel the same way about the results.
However, I am curious to hear what everything thinks!



We don't disagree about the other shortcomings, especially those related to story. However, it sounds like we might disagree about the quality of Metroid Fusion. I consider that game to be even more flawed than Other M - although that's probably a colored opinion because I had much higher expectations going into Fusion. Bad story, weak characterization for Samus, lots of hand-holding and directed movement instead of open exploration, the same problematic "suit power activation" garbage found in Other M, and more... most of my issues with Other M feel like moments where they intentionally doubled down on choices I hated in Fusion.

I'm probably in the minority though.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2019, 01:09:56 AM »
I’d have to play Fusion again as it has been quite some time since I last revisited it.

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2019, 01:16:48 AM »
I like Fusion a lot. I think a lot of the criticisms are overblown. There's still plenty of exploration and open-endedness, especially toward the end. If I were to criticize it I'd actually go the other way and say it played it too safe. It had an interesting concept but most of the things it changed were just window dressing, and in the end the game was very similar to the ones it came between.
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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2019, 03:01:00 AM »
The one thing that I was less keen on regarding controls was the quick dodge action. There is no penalty for moving at the wrong time or in the wrong direction, so you can choose to just rapidly tap any direction for movement and wait for the enemy attacks to miss before unleashing devastating counter-attacks. There is no skill here, and it saps the fun out of a combat system that is otherwise pretty decent. I'm not suggesting that should've been remove entirely - the dodge/counter system is a good addition to the game - but that it should have had some risk built in. (Think of reflecting beams with your shield in Breath of the Wild: hard to pull off correctly, but extremely satisfying when you do. Then imagine that they change the controls it so that all you had to do was rapidly tap a button and it would work 100% of the time. Would it still be as satisfying? Heck, no.)

This is where Hard mode improves the game.  The mechanic is still really easy to pull off but you die in just a few hits since there's no powerups to expand health.  So unlike Normal where you can mindless tap and brush off quit a few hits, Hard mode at least makes you worry you could die from a slip up.  The Ridley fight is very intense on Hard for this reason since some of his attacks can literally take 1/3 of you entire health if they hit.

So while Hard mode makes the game an even worse Metroid because it removes exploration, its a much better action game since it really forces the player to master the mechanics.  This is how I learned Samus has a counterattack for most enemies and bosses.  On Normal I just blasted most enemies with charged shots and missles but on Hard since I couldn't bruteforce my way, I really learned each enemies patterns and discovered so much I didn't released on Normal.  Seriously, when you start killing most of the big enemies and bosses with their individual counter animations, it makes combat faster and so much more satisfying.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2019, 08:43:08 AM »
How dare you try to rival me when it comes to walls of text!! That's my thing! Everyone knows that. Get your own thing.  :P
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2019, 09:33:16 AM »
... worse Metroid ... better action game ...

Even before playing on hard mode, I feel like this is a reasonable description for the game. Ignore a few pacing choices, and the problems with the story, and it's a pretty great action game.

Quote
...  Seriously, when you start killing most of the big enemies and bosses with their individual counter animations, it makes combat faster and so much more satisfying.

Agreed - the combat system is a bit more nuanced than you might guess when first starting, but once you start identifying the combat patterns it both looks and feels better then when just blasting away wildly. It was mid-way through the game before I realized this, but my appreciation increased from there on.



What did people think about the challenge level for combat and exploration in this game?

I died a few times (sometimes sudden death triggers, sometimes during boss fights before the patterns), but the checkpoints are generous so that never felt problematic. Exploration is a mixed bag; there are secrets to look for, but most of the game has very clear hand-holding about where to go next (except for the baffling lava section that seemed to actively discourage you from going the way you needed to go).
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2019, 12:03:44 PM »
What did people think about the challenge level for combat and exploration in this game?
Combat should have either leaned more or less on action. As is, it’s somewhere in the middle and didn’t feel as good as I would have wanted. The enemies should have been either mostly bullet sponges like in the 2D games or far smarter thus requiring more skill and strategy. I felt like I was waiting a lot. It’s the same issue I have with Ocarina of Time. You just hold your shield up until you get an opening. In Other M, there’s an enemy you can partially freeze but Overblast doesn’t work so you just SenseMove until his glow-y eye appears then your best move is to go into Search View and fire a missile. If you miss your chance, you’re SenseMove-ing again. That wasn’t that fun to me. Personally, I would’ve leaned toward heavier action mainly in an effort to separate a mostly third person 3D Metroid from past games in the series. We would have gotten to see Samus show off exactly why she’s the most dangerous, badass woman in the galaxy.

Exploration was lacking. Without, for example, the various visors like in the Prime games or the ability to “cheat” by dropping a power bomb like in the 2D games, some of the collectibles seemed unfairly hidden in Other M. To see say a floor tile-ish thing that can be destroyed, you had to go into Search View and look around. That was very unintuitive. To balance it out, the developers eventually put a dot on the map to denote an item was in the room. I thought that could have been handled better. And like I previously said, Wii was at times not powerful enough to do what the developers seemed to want to do.

Additionally, as you mentioned, Other M held your hand a lot. Past games used landmarks and colored doors to hopefully make a room memorable and naturally lead you back there. While no two rooms look the same in Other M aside from Save rooms, they were less memorable. That’s more of a level/art design issue. Having to go into Search View just to see an entire wall didn’t help things either.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 02:11:22 PM by Adrock »

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2019, 01:32:17 PM »
Other M could have been a canon gaiden series. It would have given the developers more room to work with in almost every aspect.

Nintendo in general is kind of bad at this.  They seem to get into a formula for their series where it's the same villain every time because that's the formula for the series.  Samus is a bounty hunter (though it was later revealed that the original dev team doesn't actually know what a bounty hunter is) so she can have an endless amount of adventures that don't involve Metroids or space pirates.  But they don't do that.  Mario almost always is against Bowser and the exceptions to that are when another dev team is involved or they're repurposing Doki Doki Panic.  In Zelda there is quite often the reveal that Ganon was the big baddie all along.  But Batman doesn't fight the Joker every time - he has a whole rogues gallery and thus only faces his arch-nemesis once in a while.  James Bond doesn't always fight the same villain.  Spider-Man doesn't always fight the same villain.  So these iconic Nintendo characters could get a lot of mileage out of some gaiden side-stories that can have the same type of gameplay but different locales and villains.  But Nintendo doesn't like to do that so Samus always fights Metroids every single time.

Though in Metroid's case there is the issue that the enemy is the title of the series.  But then Link's Awakening was a "Legend of Zelda" game without Zelda so they can be flexible with this.

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2019, 05:32:58 PM »
So, I’ll read through some of these other longer posts when I’ve completed the game. Been skimming a lot of this thread to try and keep from being too spoiled as I play through it. At this point, in my playthrough, I’ve gone from the worm creature fight through most of Section 1, a brief excursion through Section 3 and have arrived at Section 2.

Some thoughts on what I’ve played at this point. The worm fight was very easy on my second playthough. I’ve been enjoying the Section 1 holographic room effects of turning boring rooms into forest areas and vice-versa. Fought a couple giant tree deer like creatures. For some reason, I was thinking of that deer Pokemon on the cover of Pokemon X when encountering them. I liked the look of the wide open range at the end with the control tower but it’s a shame there isn’t actually a wide space to explore like that. At the control tower, Samus sneaks up on a Federation soldier named Pierce and then the rest of the soldiers show up. When the soldiers all went to different parts of the ship at the beginning, I was expecting Samus to check in on them or have them call for help at various points in the game only to find them taken down by a creature of some sort. Basically, they’d be sort of cannon fodder and excuse to keep exploring from on check point to the next. Was surprised to have them all show up and keep being part of the story in a way. However, that then had me thinking that perhaps this James guy will be a traitor and working with the Federation faction trying to make these bio-weapons. Still, there was one soldier that bought it so perhaps the soldiers will continue to dwindle as the mission progresses. It would seem that little white furry creature is shaping up to be the big bad of this space station.

There was an odd sort of boss fight when Samus gets pinned under a goofy purple creature and you have to try and blast its pointed tail. With the crazy eyes, hanging tongue and “intelligent” tail that seems to be playing a game of catch me if you can, it created a weird comical moment rather than panic or dread. When exploring the base around the testing area where you find the genetically enhanced Zebesians, there were screens showing different parts of the space station. From that, I could see the other two sections would be an ice and a lava section. I guess it could have been expected but it is a bit disappointing since it doesn’t feel very creative.

Difficulty seems to have ramped up a bit once entering section 3 for a bit. Encountered quite a bit of Game Overs. The biggest offender was the first encounter of the sting-ray like creature. Probably lost a good 4 times before finally getting a hang of that fight. At one point, when running over the little lava islands where some lava fish creature tries to jump out and swallow you, I missed a jump up to a higher level and fell in the lava. Got myself out and tried to get up the ledge but by the time I did, the creature jumped out and grabbed me in its jaws and pulled me under into the lava giving me a Game Over. I was surprised at that since I hadn’t really seen Samus die in such a manner before. Even when I had a loss or two earlier, it was more that her suit would shut down and she’d collapse to the floor in her zero suit. Later, when running up the circle area of rising lava, I again duffed it on some jumps and the lava caught up to me. The hand of the creature in that pool grabbed Samus and pulled her under. It makes me wonder how many different death animations there are for Samus in this game. It’s quite unusual to see. Usually the 2D games just have Samus or her suit just explode. Prime games just had the visor lose signal when you went down.

After fighting some weird Doshin the Giant like lava boss, I understand why so many people have talked about the Varia upgrade for this game. I may circle back to that point but when playing the game, aside from now understanding what that Varia talk was about and acknowledging it as a sort of clunky way to handle the upgrade, I was just happy to now have the Varia suit and no longer fret about the heat. Advanced from there to get sent to Section 2 and that was it. So far, I’m still quite positive on this adventure. I mentioned I probably wouldn’t miss the backstory scenes while playing and after I encountered none during this section, I can confirm that nothing was lost without them. Preferred the focus of just sticking with the mystery of the Bottle Ship.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2019, 08:20:06 PM »
I'm sorry, the words "Baby's Cry" do not belong on a Super Metroid style text crawl.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2019, 10:15:51 PM »
I'm sorry, the words "Baby's Cry" do not belong on a Super Metroid style text crawl.
Other M was well known for its subtlety.

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2019, 10:46:37 PM »
Nothing says subtlety like putting BOTTLE SHIP in all caps every time it gets mentioned.

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Re: Forum Retrospective #5: Metroid Other M - Any objections Lady?
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2019, 04:01:40 AM »
Just finished another long chunk of gameplay. Went through Sector 2, then back to other parts of Sector 3 then Sector 1 where I got a load of cutscenes / story explaining just what all this space station is about and have now reached Sector 0. Maybe the best way to explain it is that I encountered what I call the purple butterfly creature with swinging arms for the first time and faced off against it 3 more times before finally, finally destroying it. According to my play time, I'm at 8:51 which surprises me because I feel like I should have another couple hours at least on the time but whatever.

So many things to unpack with this chunk of gameplay but it won't be right now. It's late and I'm going to bed. I'm just not sure if I want to take the time to compose some of my thoughts and start breaking down my reactions or just keep powering through and finish the game tomorrow. I feel I've got to be getting close to the ending now based on what I've played and what's been accomplished.

What I will just say is that I was thinking of pausing and stopping around the time I was about done Section 2 and then move on to Section 3. But I decided to keep going and found myself just wanting to keep going and going and not stopping. Even now, part of me is like, forget sleep, let's just keep doing this so while I had enjoyed the game from my first few play sessions, it seems to have finally hit that mark of a really good game by becoming a compulsion for the player and not wanting to stop playing and looking forward to the next play session.

It would seem that Team Ninja has done a very good job of this Metroid Fusion remake.  ;)
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