Author Topic: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina  (Read 83930 times)

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Offline jrlibrarian

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2009, 08:23:15 PM »
Just wait until Rosalina is captured and Mario has to rescue her.

I would actually buy that if it was put out on WiiWare.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2009, 10:34:15 PM »
Just wait until Rosalina is captured and Mario has to rescue her.

So?

Just because she might get kidnapped it doesn't mean all her appeal goes down the drain. Her story has already been told and her character already established in the Mario canon. Strong people can also be vulnerable. If Bowser were to threaten the existence of the universe, including the Lumas it is likely she would give herself up as long as her Lumas are safe.

Not to mention that the heroes have also been kidnapped. Mario has been kidnapped before in games like Luigi's Mansion and Super Princess Peach. While you might say that these aren't canon they still presented Mario in a vulnerable state that we aren't used to seeing. And even then we still love Mario.

It's understandable that you don't like Rosalina. Fine. But remember, not every female character has to be Samus in order to be good. She is a mother figure and a guardian to many, and as the Game Overthinker said once "re-envisions life in the universe as an act of maternal nurture than a macho construction project".

Finally, Peach is a damsel in distress and people, especially girls like her. I know a friend who loves Peach but is the exact opposite.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 10:40:57 PM by pap64 »
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2009, 11:54:38 PM »
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Finally, Peach is a damsel in distress and people, especially girls like her. I know a friend who loves Peach but is the exact opposite.

Aka, a stereotype perpetuated by a male dominated industry. I could care less if certain girls like that, the fact is that the damsel in distress is what you get when you have males dominating an industry. Rosalina is basically an extension of that philosophy, instead of a damsel in distress (for now at least) she is a stay at home mom raising her babies while the male heroes do all the Galaxy saving.  It is a stereotype I'm sick with, and regardless of how the setting or circumstances have changed in its presentation it is still outdated and ridiculous. While the industry is finally growing up (though still a LONG ways to go), Nintendo is pretty much stuck in a rut when it comes to gender roles minus a couple of exceptions (Those being Samus, and Zelda to an extent now).

Until Nintendo actually has her do something more then being a the stereotypical "stay at home mom who has the hero doing all the fighting for her", Nintendo can shove their backwards, stereotypical, female characters.

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If Bowser were to threaten the existence of the universe, including the Lumas it is likely she would give herself up as long as her Lumas are safe.

If someone threatened my family there would hell to pay. I'm not only the woman that would say this, I wouldn't "give myself up" I'd fight back any way I could, even it meant my death, for my family that is a small price to pay. You've heard the saying "Hell has no fury like a woman scorned", well try to mess with my family and see what happens. I won't give my family up without a fight, and I know most women would not either.

It is kind of sad when people glaze over characters like Rosalina who are sexist cliche's with a new coat of paint or (while fun I admit) a game starring peach where you get through it her emotions. No wonder so many women have trouble getting into games, though I do see hope but it is coming from companies other then Nintendo. Even when Nintendo at least tries with a character like Zelda (such as Sheik) the male population starts insulting that character change as her being a man in sheik mode. So I guess much of the blame can be thrown squarely at many of the male gamers as well.

It is because of the attitude of many gamers that you will never see a character like Rosalina, I dunno, SAVE MARIO. If she did she would have to go to her universal kitchen between levels to cook up some star dust, maybe squirt out a few star babies, along the way. Having her be a straight forward heroine though would not fly just like it didn't fly with Peach.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 12:14:47 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2009, 12:16:20 AM »
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Finally, Peach is a damsel in distress and people, especially girls like her. I know a friend who loves Peach but is the exact opposite.

Aka, a stereotype perpetuated by a male dominated industry. I could care less if certain girls like that, the fact is that the damsel in distress is what you get when you have males dominating an industry. Rosalina is basically an extension of that philosophy, instead of a damsel in distress (for now at least) she is a stay at home mom raising her babies while the male heroes do all the Galaxy saving.  It is a stereotype I'm sick with, and regardless of how the setting or circumstances have changed in its presentation it is still outdated and ridiculous. While the industry is finally growing up (though still a LONG ways to go), Nintendo is pretty much stuck in a rut when it comes to gender roles minus a couple of exceptions (Those being Samus, and Zelda to an extent now).

Until Nintendo actually has her do something more then being a the stereotypical "stay at home mom who has the hero doing all the fighting for her", Nintendo can shove their backwards, stereotypical, female characters.

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If Bowser were to threaten the existence of the universe, including the Lumas it is likely she would give herself up as long as her Lumas are safe.

If someone threatened my family there would hell to pay. I'm not only the woman that would say this, I wouldn't "give myself up" I'd fight back any way I could, even it meant my death, for my family that is a small price to pay. You've heard the saying "Hell has no fury like a woman scorned", well try to mess with my family and see what happens. I won't give my family up without a fight, and I know most women would not either.

To a certain extend I understand why you would be annoyed by the damsel in distress. But why do you take issue with being a stay at home mother? Hell, if you see it as a derogatory thing for women then you are pretty much belittling motherhood.

Being a stay at home mother may not get you awards or recognition, but its still a job with a lot of responsibilities. She has to tend to everyone and make sure everything runs smoothly and still be a loving, caring individual. My mother was a stay at home mother. She used to work at a local factory until the birth of my sister and me. She attended everything in our lives because dad worked the graveyard shift and slept in the day. And just because she was a stay at home mother it didn't mean she was of lesser value. She made sure everything was fine in my life and gave me and my sister anything we wanted or needed. She loved being a mother and I am eternally grateful for her efforts.

Believe or not there are many women who have accepted their roles as mothers and are proud of it. There is something beautiful in being a mother. While I know a man is capable of being a loving father there's something about maternal love that is different, deep even.

You are only paying attention to the apparent stereotype and not looking deeper. Rosalina is a mother who lost her mother at a young age. She had to become a mother to those that didn't have a hand to guide them across the galaxy. Despite not having a mother of her own Rosalina took the Lumas in and built them a home where she and the lumas grew happy.

Once again, in your efforts in believing in a strong female lead you have belittled the most important role a woman will ever have; being a mother.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2009, 12:20:59 AM »
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To a certain extend I understand why you would be annoyed by the damsel in distress. But why do you take issue with being a stay at home mother? Hell, if you see it as a derogatory thing for women then you are pretty much belittling motherhood.

You missed my point entirely I have no problem with stay at home mothers but it is a cliche perpetuated by backwards developers. Believe it or not even a mother of kids can do more then stay at home, in fact she can be involved in various things as well. If a woman wishes to be solely a stay at home mom, great, I respect her 100% but I don't need to see that perpetuated all the freaken time in various forms of media. Not to mention when coming from one of the most sexist companies around I cannot forgive the focus on certain stereotypes.

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Once again, in your efforts in believing in a strong female lead you have belittled the most important role a woman will ever have; being a mother.

What is the most important role a man has then, being a bald space marine trying to end the alien invasion? Being a mother is a wonderful thing, but there are, believe it or not, there are other amazing things women do that are very important as well. Joan of Arc was not a mother and she did some amazing things as well that are inspiring to me and many other women. The FACT is that the woman staying solely at home taking care of kids and cooking is an outdated stereotype in this world, that is a facet but it is much more complex then that. We have enough media already that tries to suggest that is all women can do right.

I am disappointed that you are twisting my statements pap, did I degrade stay at home moms? No but I did degrade that Rosalina is perpetuating a stereotype that while the woman is at home the man has to go save the universe in the meantime because that is all she is capable of. There is so much more diversity in women then that, and all have value INCLUDING stay at home moms, but I don't need that being the sole focus from media, it is lazy and stupid.

I'm sure you had a fantastic mother, and I respect her 100%, but now days there is so much more complexity and, yes, understanding of gender that is sadly only catching up to media. Rosalina at best is a cliched female character, at worse she is showing the ignorance of Nintendo, especially, that women can be more diverse then that, that she can have those traits but others as well. To be blessed with a family but at the same time able to do more as well if she so chooses.

It would be so refreshing to see a game where a mother is raising a family but when her world (or universe is threatened) in order to save everything she loved she didn't pick up a man to do it but instead fought to save what she truly loves herself (Or gasp, has a husband that stays at home to protect the family while she is gone). Wouldn't that be refreshing? It would not only show a unique presentation of gender roles but it would also show respect to the dear men who are stay at home dads in our world (I know, shock, but it does exist and many are amazing people too when it comes to raising their family).

Nintendo though is content with a variation of the theme of "a woman is in trouble, let's get a man to save the day!" whether that be her kidnapped or her galaxy being threatened. You can dislike what I'm saying but I think it would be so cool if a loving mother like Rosalina, who is obvious powerful, not to mention caring took matters into her own hands to protect her children, or perhaps a dual protection where they work in tandem to stop Bowser. Much better then "Oh no the universe is in trouble better get Mario to save it for me!"
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 12:48:10 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2009, 12:52:03 AM »
I'm sorry, but you decided to see Rosalina as the stereotype, not as the character. Technically, ALL of the Mario characters are stereotypes that promotes unhealthy ideals.

Mario is a stereotype of Italian people. Luigi's character says that shy guys will never find glory in life. Bowser sends turtles to fight Mario, and Mario defeats them by stomping on them. That's promoting violence against animals. Wario is a fat guy that eats EVERYTHING and promotes greed. Daisy's character says that tomboy girls are obnoxious. Donkey Kong promotes the fact that gorillas are nothing but violent, dumb creatures when science has said otherwise.

Hell...BIRDO PROMOTES CROSS DRESSING!

See what I did there? All of the characters have the potential of being harmful, but that's because I decided to see them as that. The reality of the situation is that they are cartoon characters. They live in a cartoon world where the classic storybook ideals exist. They are great exaggerations of the typical behavior we see in the real world. Once again they are cartoons.

Rosalina is also part of the same group. She is meant to be a mother figure.

I honestly believe you are thinking too hard and trying to bring realistic ideals into a world that is considered highly imaginative and NOT representative of the real world.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2009, 12:55:23 AM »
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I honestly believe you are thinking too hard and trying to bring realistic ideals into a world that is considered highly imaginative and NOT representative of the real world.

Media influences perception whether we like it or not. I'm saying complex characters, even when they are cartoons (look at Pixar's movies) are a great thing, not a bad thing. Even Samus I thought was too stereotypical but in the straight out kick the crap out of them heroine sort of way, though with Tecmo's new partnership with Nintendo on Other M it looks like we will see other sides of her personality, making her a complex person.

The one character I loved in the Mario games and thought had the most potential is all but dead, and that is Wendy O Koopa. For that series they seem content with having a cartoon male dominated society (OK we don't know what Yoshi is so maybe not totally LOL). It gets tiring after awhile, especially when the women characters never stick up for themselves and fight back. It is old and tiresome, which is why I don't think they should get special credit for Rosalina.

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Daisy's character says that tomboy girls are obnoxious.

Better watch out Pap, pro may attack you in your sleep for saying that.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 01:01:51 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2009, 01:00:36 AM »
I'm going to end the discussion here. Its obvious that nothing I say will change your views on the character, and nothing you will say can change. I still believe Rosalina is a wonderful new character and actually LIKE that she is a mother.

Let's end the discussion before we get more personal and we turn the thread into a "who is right" debate.

And I encourage everyone to do the same.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2009, 01:05:58 AM »
I'm going to end the discussion here. Its obvious that nothing I say will change your views on the character, and nothing you will say can change. I still believe Rosalina is a wonderful new character and actually LIKE that she is a mother.

Let's end the discussion before we get more personal and we turn the thread into a "who is right" debate.

And I encourage everyone to do the same.


I don't recall personally attacking you, if I did I apologize. . Anyway.

Who is for a game starring Rosalina where her and her star kids kick some Koopa butt, to perhaps even save Mario? I could learn to love the character then.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 01:10:37 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2009, 01:18:47 AM »
If it has classic mario platforming and no crying, umbrella, or dish-pan-weaponry, bring it on.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2009, 01:19:57 AM »
If it has classic mario platforming and no crying, umbrella, or dish-pan-weaponry, bring it on.

Pans can really hurt though. Especially one right off the stove!

Come to think of it, it would actually be cool if Rosalina teleported home, put a pan on the over, heated it to scalding temperatures to use as a weapon!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 01:22:21 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2009, 01:45:05 AM »
That would seem like copying Peach's SSBB moveset while perpetuating a dreaded domestic definition. It needs more originality. Consider these famous female attacks:

dixie kong: Hair that can be used to attack AND slowly helicopter around- awesome

cherry darling: foot-gun. enough said

T-X: plasma energy weapon, circular saw, flame thrower, and more. These weapons fit Rosalina to a 'T' LOL

ilia: heal a party member, respawn, nuke the entire galaxy with energy and trap a man in a parallel universe. win-win. heavily magic-focused.


I expect Miyamoto to fully incorporate this arsenal into Rosalina's next game.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2009, 03:28:54 AM »
That would seem like copying Peach's SSBB moveset while perpetuating a dreaded domestic definition. It needs more originality. Consider these famous female attacks:

dixie kong: Hair that can be used to attack AND slowly helicopter around- awesome

cherry darling: foot-gun. enough said

T-X: plasma energy weapon, circular saw, flame thrower, and more. These weapons fit Rosalina to a 'T' LOL

ilia: heal a party member, respawn, nuke the entire galaxy with energy and trap a man in a parallel universe. win-win. heavily magic-focused.


I expect Miyamoto to fully incorporate this arsenal into Rosalina's next game.

I would so be behind that game. And for a finishing move she can bring in her hot pan and burn the enemy's face off followed by the comment "Not such a funny joke anymore is it?". ;)

Then they can be carried away by her star kids and ripped apart.

I did find it strange though in SMG that she is supposedly so powerful but Bowser could walk over her basically in his flying air ships, to the point where she had to get a fat Italian plumber to save the day? Perhaps by Nintendo standards her backstory is decent but overall it is pretty weak in that it bears little connection to the overall game, and feels like it was thrown in there on a whim.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 03:49:37 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2009, 10:07:58 AM »
That would seem like copying Peach's SSBB moveset while perpetuating a dreaded domestic definition. It needs more originality. Consider these famous female attacks:

dixie kong: Hair that can be used to attack AND slowly helicopter around- awesome

cherry darling: foot-gun. enough said

T-X: plasma energy weapon, circular saw, flame thrower, and more. These weapons fit Rosalina to a 'T' LOL

ilia: heal a party member, respawn, nuke the entire galaxy with energy and trap a man in a parallel universe. win-win. heavily magic-focused.


I expect Miyamoto to fully incorporate this arsenal into Rosalina's next game.

I would so be behind that game. And for a finishing move she can bring in her hot pan and burn the enemy's face off followed by the comment "Not such a funny joke anymore is it?". ;)

Then they can be carried away by her star kids and ripped apart.

I did find it strange though in SMG that she is supposedly so powerful but Bowser could walk over her basically in his flying air ships, to the point where she had to get a fat Italian plumber to save the day? Perhaps by Nintendo standards her backstory is decent but overall it is pretty weak in that it bears little connection to the overall game, and feels like it was thrown in there on a whim.

As an FYI, Miyamoto didn't even approve of her back story. In fact in an interview he said that the co-director actually implemented the story behind Shiggy's back. We don't know if SMG 2 will have the same kind of storytelling the first game had.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2009, 10:13:02 AM »
It won't, or at least that's how Miyamoto made it sound at the E3 roundtable.
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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2009, 06:37:34 PM »
I leave for a bit and ^ALL THIS^ takes place?  Talk about bringing balance to the force.

"Peach and Daisy look lovely in their sports outfits. But what about Rosalina? HmmÂ…"

Rosalina is Nintendo's Super Galaxy Tranny and will therefore not have a lovely appearance in sporty short pants.  She got away with it in Mario Kart only because the bikes have a compartment for her rocket.
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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2009, 07:11:31 PM »
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I would so be behind that game. And for a finishing move she can bring in her hot pan and burn the enemy's face off followed by the comment "Not such a funny joke anymore is it?".

Ugh, that reminds me so much of the humor in that crappy 90's movie and thus should be avoided at all costs.  That's like the worst idea ever.

There is so much irony in this thread from GoldenPhoenix it's making other threads anemic by comparison, but the funniest to me are two things.

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It is because of the attitude of many gamers that you will never see a character like Rosalina, I dunno, SAVE MARIO. If she did she would have to go to her universal kitchen between levels to cook up some star dust, maybe squirt out a few star babies, along the way.

This is the most sexist thing I have ever read on this site, and it was said by you.  Sure, you are "imagining" how the character designers are thinking, but still, you are the one spouting the typical misogynist trope reducing childbirth into *ahem* "squirting."  The last person I heard say stuff like that wore a shirt that said "Never trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and lives" or something like that.

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The one character I loved in the Mario games and thought had the most potential is all but dead, and that is Wendy O Koopa.

This is the character with Lipstick, High-heels, and jewelry-based attacks, right?  That's more stereotypical than anything else!

One thing not discussed here is cultural differences between Japan and America and how that ties into all this.  Japan is a pretty gender-role defined place.  I mean for example, it's typical for a female employee to quit her job in order to get married and take about 15 years to raise children before re-entering the work force and it is entirely expected and certain companies even help out with a little severance.  Try that in America, you'd be lucky to get a week off to actually have the baby in some places.

This is not to say that Japan is "better," but "different."  And this difference causes friction in fiction and requires a little more universal symbolism.  And one thing that transcends cultural boundaries for both East and West is the symbol of a woman as mother.  You speak of this as a product of a male dominated society, when historically, this role of motherhood was the source of all their "powers," so to speak.  In prehistoric societies, the people revered the woman as the source of all life, because they basically were.  Pre-scientific method and magical thinking caused this and once it was found out that men have just as much to do with childbirthing as women (and were able to out-muscle them), we usurped the power and replaced all goddess statues and stuff with male gods and stuff (Side note, we kicked ass, men!  What a feat.  High five!  UNF, take that!)

So this "Earth mother" archetype, while at times reinforced by men, was created by women in order to keep the goddess mystique and keep their power in pre-historic societies.  Evil video game developer men are not out to get women by way of making stereotypes.

Besides, notice how the only people with authority in the Mario universe are women.  I really don't think they are trying to be chauvinists, GoldenPhoenix.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2009, 10:08:41 PM »
Wendy O Koopa throws Candy not jewelry, I was referencing her personality and her attitude. Also I thought Pap ended this? Perhaps Deg needs some reading comprehension.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 10:20:23 PM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline Deguello

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2009, 10:24:54 PM »
Pap's not my lord and master.  I am free to do as I please within the rules.
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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2009, 11:14:46 PM »
I'm going to ask, in a non-official capacity, that we regard the waters here as poisoned  As such, I ask that we terminate the discussion of gender-roles in this thread.  It isn't that this is an undeserving topic, it is that this thread has been so entrenched that it is beyond meaningful discussion.

In its place, I think this could be a good topic for general gaming.  If someone wants to make a respectful thread to that tune then by all means.
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Offline Dasmos

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2009, 01:43:22 AM »
rosalina is one hot bitch.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2009, 03:59:36 AM »
rosalina is one hot bitch.

Oh how perceptions differ, to Pro she is a tranny, to Dasmos she is super hot!
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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2009, 04:32:23 AM »
rosalina is one hot bitch.

Oh how perceptions differ, to Pro she is a tranny, to Dasmos she is super hot!

So you're saying that she is a Super Hot Tranny? 0_o
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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2009, 11:57:12 AM »
trannies are the hottest bitches.
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Re: My Favorite Nintendo Character Part 2: Rosalina
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2009, 01:32:56 PM »
Our statements have reached compatibility.

Rosalina's packin' heat. meat
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