Author Topic: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?  (Read 21396 times)

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Offline Phil

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I only put that in quotes because that's usually the phrase folks use.

There's been this discussion in the Talkback Wii U/GameCube sales comparison article, but I'd like to bring it to its own topic.

If you've read my thoughts in Talkback, then you know what I think, but I'll outline it anyway for fun.

I don't think it's fair to isolate the horrid E3 2008 conference, a selection of games from the Wii line, the Touch Generations, among other moments and ignore everything else Nintendo produced, developed, and did with the Wii and DS.

For instance, and forgive me for writing a list here, but with the Wii alone we saw:
  • One exclusive Zelda mainline game
  • Two of the greatest reviewed games of the generation (Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2)
  • The return of such franchises as Donkey Kong Country, Excite, Sin & Punishment, and Punch-Out
  • Two Metroid games (I liked Other M. It wasn't the best game, but I honestly did enjoy it)
  • Two new Kirby games
  • A new Mario Kart
  • The first 2D home console Mario game in ages
  • A new Wario Land
  • Super Smash Bros. Brawl (my favorite in the series, but I'm not a competitive player)
  • A new Fire Emblem
  • New attempts at new IPs with Endless Ocean, FlingSmash, among others
  • And more
So while Nintendo did focus on "casual" or "non-gamers", it didn't focus on them 100% of the time. There was a lot of stuff for longtime gamers such as us.

Do you think Nintendo turned its back on core gamers with the Wii?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 07:31:20 PM by Phil »
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2014, 06:19:39 PM »
No.

Anyway, I sense no good can come from this thread. It's going to turn into a clusterfuck like it always does. That's why I avoided rebutting anyone in that Talkback thread. You're going to get the same people who claim Nintendo doesn't make games for them anymore yet can't help willingly posting on a Nintendo message board and talking about them because, sure, that makes sense.

I suggest we talk about our favorite kind of cupcakes instead... but then, some chucklehead will just turn it into a metaphor about Nintendo choosing last generation hardware somehow.

Offline Phil

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2014, 06:21:21 PM »
I will raise a white flag and yell "Abandon ship!" if the topic does become poopy. I'm just interested in reading the other side and their rationale.

I like vanilla cupcakes, as I've never liked chocolate.
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2014, 06:22:47 PM »
I think the real question is: did Nintendo abandon the core gamer, or did the core gamer abandon Nintendo?


I don't have enough perspective of pre-Wii sales to have the best informed opinion, but everything I've read indicates that Gamecube wasn't a big seller.  Sony wiped the floor, absolutely trounced Gamecube & Xbox in sales, and I think Nintendo saw it as a rational decision that the core video gaming crowd wasn't enough of an install base for them to carve out an install base that was acceptable to their growth aspirations as a business.


To your point, there are several games from Nintendo during the Wii generation that are either geared towards the "core" Nintendo gamer or unfriendly to casual gamers, but I think it's not hard to see that based on the game library that their aspirations was to continue making the Wii a good value proposition to those who bought it primarily for Wii sports, or for their kids.


I also think that the Wii U's misfortunes have less to do with core gamers not thinking there's value in Nintendo games, but in Nintendo's miscalculation that a unique tablet controller at the cost of hardware more in-line with msft/Sony would be a good value proposition, especially when their best touted feature (off-tv play) has been implemented alternatively fairly well by Sony.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2014, 06:47:08 PM »
Just a quick correction for you Phil. New Super Mario Bros. on the DS was the first 2D platformer in ages. NSMB Wii was only a couple years after that.

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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2014, 06:51:35 PM »
Just a quick correction for you Phil. New Super Mario Bros. on the DS was the first 2D platformer in ages. NSMB Wii was only a couple years after that.


It's just that the Wii version was leaps and bounds better.  Not sure how popular an opinion this is, but I always felt NSMB for DS was kind of garbage.

Offline Pixelated Pixies

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2014, 07:19:38 PM »
Nope.

For the reasons already stated. Nintendo released plenty of games which appealed to their most dedicated fans.

On a slightly related note, I realised this week that I'm already getting slightly nostalgic for the Wii. I really do look back on things like Warioland: Shake It, Fluidity, Prime 3, Galaxy, Twilight Princess, Punch Out!! etc with a great amount of fondness.
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Offline Phil

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2014, 07:30:56 PM »
Just a quick correction for you Phil. New Super Mario Bros. on the DS was the first 2D platformer in ages. NSMB Wii was only a couple years after that.

I'm sorry. I left out the term "home console."
Thanks for that!


EDIT: Fixed it! Thanks again!
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2014, 08:03:35 PM »
I wouldn't say they abandoned them but took them for granted.  It felt like more a token effort like they shifted a lot of focus towards their new casual audience and just assumed their old fans would stick around.  The whole design of the hardware was pretty much entirely for the new audience.  It was pretty much a re-release of the Gamecube with a new controller that was specifically designed for people that were intimidated by traditional controllers.  The controller part isn't speculation, Nintendo themselves stated that was the intention of the controller and specifically mentioned the TV remote design as being familiar and inviting.

Why would I want to buy a console that offers effectively no upgrade to the prior one other than a controller that is specifically designed for an audience I am not part of?  Aren't I effectively getting cheated?  It seems arbitrary that I have to buy a whole new console when the new gameplay experience it offers might as well be a peripheral for the Gamecube.  It felt like a scam that relied on the new audience to be ignorant of Nintendo's prior history.  I also did not like being told that I didn't need updated specs or that I didn't need to have a console that supported HDTVs.  And going with last gen hardware completely fucked up third party support and I wanted HD games from Nintendo and they wouldn't give them to me.  Instead I get Gamecube games with wonky controls passed off as "innovation".

And Nintendo had to put the casual focused motion controls in every game.  Thankfully we sometimes got the option but not always.  Super Mario Galaxy is one of the most exceptional titles but it still had waggle controls that you could NOT disable.  Why were they there when they were literally just a button press mapped to a shake?  To make the game more inviting to casuals.  Now you're compromising the controls on a game that otherwise seems designed for one audience to be inclusive to the other.  But do casual titles like Wii Sports get extra options to appeal to the core?  Nope.  It only went one way.  Core games get compromised to be inviting to casuals but casual games had no concessions made for core gamers.  It was clear who the focus was.

And I also found that on the Wii Nintendo's ambition and creativity took a nose dive with more and more cookie-cutter sequels than before.  The truly new concepts seemed to be reserved for casual games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit.  Casuals get the innovation, core gamers get safe token efforts.

And I felt that Nintendo made no effort to address their shortcomings on the Gamecube.  I assume it was because the casuals don't know better.  That seemed to be the whole plan.  Don't try, don't improve, don't care because the casuals don't know better.  And the casuals outnumber the core so who cares if they complain?

I felt like a second class citizen on the Wii.  My concerns didn't matter because I was in the minority and it seemed that Nintendo didn't actually care if I was happy with the system or not.  If I wanted a decent online solution and cutting edge graphics and responsive controls and good third party support and some actually justfication for buying a new console other than a gimmicky controller that doesn't impress me then I'm out of luck.

It was a weak effort that coasted on the money coming from casual gamers that didn't seem to notice or possibly even care.  You can't ask your old audience to put up with a ton of compromises, that the competing products don't have, to accomodate a new audience.  That's neglecting your old audience.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2014, 08:13:25 PM »
Donkey Kong Jr. Math (Brain Training)
World Class Track Meet (Wii Fit)
Duck Hunt (Motion Controls)
Gyromite (Gimmick Accessory)

Nintendo abandoned the Core Gamer on the NES.  Go play some Game and Watch.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2014, 09:17:01 PM »
It's definitely a huge exaggeration to use the word "abandon," but I do think Nintendo's efforts and focus shifted a bit with the Wii and beyond. Nintendo have always tried to appeal to a wide audience, as UncleBob alludes to, but I think they started doing more to attract new gamers than before, and maybe less for established gamers. So although I agree that Nintendo aren't as ambitious as they once were, I'm also not so sure I care that much about that, and I still feel they publish some great games.

In fact, with nostalgia removed, I'd probably name the Wii as my fave system.

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2014, 10:37:10 PM »
Not a big cupcake fan.  But I love those mini-pecan pies. 

Nintendo doesn't make core games is an extremist argument and not true.  I'd love to own every video game system but it's just not feasible.  People with limited money have to decide which player to go with. 

Nintendo is falling behind most of the offerings of the other big video game players.  Nintendo owns platforming, if that's your major interest there is no reason to not be happy with what Nintendo brings to the table.  I love racing games (can't give enough of them really).  Mario Kart is an awesome racing game but that's really all Nintendo has.  I tend to go to the simulation side of racing (Gran Turismo, Forza, Nascar, F1, Dirt) and Nintendo has nothing there.  They also don't have other good arcade titles like Burnout, NFS, Motorstorm, Midnight Club, Dirt, etc, etc and they don't have wheel support which sucks big time.

That certainly doesn't make Nintendo game systems useless for me, they just don't offer what the other players offer in genres I like.  I'm actually a two system guy because I do also like platforming and some of the key Nintendo franchises (Mario Kart, Pikmin, Smash).  The more time and $ I spend on other systems I view as opportunity for Nintendo.  They used to be my only system and I wish they could provide that experience to be my only system again.  It's not that I intentionally try to be negative on Nintendo because I enjoy their current games.  But I can't help feeling like it would be so easy for them to improve certain aspects and they are unwilling to. 
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:10:36 PM by smallsharkbigbite »

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2014, 11:14:26 PM »
Donkey Kong Jr. Math (Brain Training)
World Class Track Meet (Wii Fit)
Duck Hunt (Motion Controls)
Gyromite (Gimmick Accessory)


Come on.  Duck Hunt is pointer controls, Bad Street Brawler with the glove is motion controls. 

Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2014, 11:16:29 PM »
Donkey Kong Jr. Math (Brain Training)
World Class Track Meet (Wii Fit)
Duck Hunt (Motion Controls)
Gyromite (Gimmick Accessory)

Nintendo abandoned the Core Gamer on the NES.  Go play some Game and Watch.

You mobile playing non-gamers are what's killing the industry with your shallow pocket games.  Real Nintendo fans will stick to Sheriff in the Arcade where true core gaming is.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2014, 11:22:15 PM »
Donkey Kong Jr. Math (Brain Training)
World Class Track Meet (Wii Fit)
Duck Hunt (Motion Controls)
Gyromite (Gimmick Accessory)

Nintendo abandoned the Core Gamer on the NES.  Go play some Game and Watch.

You mobile playing non-gamers are what's killing the industry with your shallow pocket games.  Real Nintendo fans will stick to Sheriff in the Arcade where true core gaming is.

You know... I've been looking for a nice US Bandido machine. ;)
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Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2014, 12:40:01 AM »
No. The biggest factor to me is they ignored the HD (I went HD in 2009) and true online movement. Game for game the Wii can hold its own with the top 20 games from PS360, but the perception that Nintendo didn't care is simply off base. They handled them wrong or as IANSANE said "took them/us for granted".


HOWEVER!!!


The list of exclusive (mostly) games that are also "core" is quite robust I think.


Fragile Dreams
Pandora Tower
Xenoblade Chronicles
The Last Story
Madworld
Red Steel 2
No more Heroes 1/2
Muramasa
Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom (better that Marvel Capcom 3)
World of Goo


and this is off the top of my head.




Hell no!


Offline the asylum

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2014, 01:16:49 AM »
Nintendo didn't abandon the cores, no, but they abandoned the kind of approach that appeals to core developers.

Abandonment via proxy, if you will.

Offline bustin98

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2014, 01:20:56 AM »
It's not the games. It's the services. Poor online connectivity, assumes everyone needs to be in a "safe" environment, assumes the tech level of everyone is low (thanks, Apple). Nintendo wants to hold your hand rather than let you learn how to fly.

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2014, 06:53:14 AM »
Quote
Game for game the Wii can hold its own with the top 20 games from PS360,

Gaming tastes are so subjective that I don't really like statements like this.  Many of the games on your list are niche as they didn't broadly appeal to those that owned Wiis (didn't sell well) despite almost everyone owning a Wii.  I think what you also see that as tastes have become more broad in gaming, it's not always about matching the top 20 games.  Sometimes those games that aren't considered top of the line for the console really push gamers to the system because they are able to connect with those games. 

I still think on a genre by genre basis Nintendo fails to match their competitors leading to poor sales.  I'm not going to go genre by genre as a comparison.  I listed racing above, but that's not as popular of a genre.  A more important genre is FPS.  It's probably the most important genre right now and I would find it hard for someone to argue that Nitnendo is on even footing in the genre.  So people that like that genre will pass over getting a Nintendo system in favor of a competitor.  Most people that would argue against this don't really like the FPS genre.  So again, the Wii games may be your preference, but in the larger market Nintendo is failing because they don't provide many games that have mass appeal.  I largely hate FPS, but I see their importance in the market place. 

Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2014, 08:02:58 AM »

[size=78%]I still think on a genre by genre basis Nintendo fails to match their competitors leading to poor sales.  I'm not going to go genre by genre as a comparison.  I listed racing above, but that's not as popular of a genre.  A more important genre is FPS.  It's probably the most important genre right now and I would find it hard for someone to argue that Nitnendo is on even footing in the genre.  So people that like that genre will pass over getting a Nintendo system in favor of a competitor.  Most people that would argue against this don't really like the FPS genre.  So again, the Wii games may be your preference, but in the larger market Nintendo is failing because they don't provide many games that have mass appeal.  I largely hate FPS, but I see their importance in the market place. [/size]


Your right no doubt. I would would like to point out that there are plenty of fps on Wii but the lack of features and polish makes it look more barren than it really is. Clearly not as many as on ps360 but a fair amount that if the Wii was your only/main console, you could scratch that itch. Racing games, Sandbox and western rpgs however...i got nothing.


Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2014, 01:19:54 PM »
It's not the games. It's the services. Poor online connectivity, assumes everyone needs to be in a "safe" environment, assumes the tech level of everyone is low (thanks, Apple). Nintendo wants to hold your hand rather than let you learn how to fly.

Good point.  What message do you give to your audience when your online games require friend codes?  The very concept is patronizing.

When you look at the sales trends thus far this gen with the PS4 outselling everyone else it suggests a strong rejection of what could be seen as casual gamer focused features.  The Wii U has the gimmicky controller and outdated specs.  The Xbox One is less powerful than the PS4 but costs more money because Kinect, which is largely seen as casual, is a mandatory purchase.  Both of those consoles require the user to make some compromise to accomodate casuals but the PS4 does not.  Whether you like it or not there appears to be a large amount of core gamers that don't like "sharing" their hobby with another audience, at least not if their experience is affected in any way.

Offline Ceric

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2014, 02:16:03 PM »
There is a difference between sharing a hobby and compromising a hobby.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2014, 03:42:22 PM »
I don't have much time to post this, so I'll keep it brief: Do I believe Nintendo "abandoned" core gamers last generation? No, though their early-Wii software was heavily skewed against my interests. However, do I believe that Nintendo created a hostile environment for core gamers on future Nintendo consoles by rejecting almost everything core gamers value in their games (strong 3rd party support, production values, a diverse software lineup, games with tight and responsive controls, deep gameplay mechanics)? Yes, I do.
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Offline alegoicoe

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2014, 04:37:15 PM »
If the Wii was able to at least output a 720p resolution we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think Nintendo gamers couldn't understand why their favorite game franchises were not in HD. That single fact alone caused a mass exodus of Nintendo fans to the other platforms.
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Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2014, 07:19:28 PM »
If the Wii was able to at least output a 720p resolution we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think Nintendo gamers couldn't understand why their favorite game franchises were not in HD. That single fact alone caused a mass exodus of Nintendo fans to the other platforms.


Can 240 lines of resolution really cause that big of a difference in perception? YES IT CAN? I completely agree. Even  now I want 10 wii games in HD, as if it's some sort of unfinished experience. In hindsight, I can see why some gamers feel incomplete without HD. (Metroid Prime 3 in HD back in 09 and the gaming world is a different place)

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2014, 08:02:17 PM »
For me it's not specifically HD but rather the improved graphics and production values that I expect from a new console.  That's how it worked for literally every other console ever made and suddenly Nintendo bucked the trend.  I wanted to see what we would get out of Zelda and Metroid with newer tech.  I used to associate Zelda with being grand and ambitious and by the standards of the entire industry, not just in comparison to what Nintendo is doing.  In the end the Wii Zeldas aren't really any step up from Wind Waker (and one of them was literally a Gamecube game).  Their are no improvements as a result of improved tech aside from the controls, which I didn't even like in the first place.

There's a "wow factor" in new consoles as the tech improves and the games push that tech to do things you haven't seen before.  Nintendo doesn't offer that anymore.  Zelda Wii U is going to be HD but what "sizzle" will it's presentation have that any PS3 or Xbox 360 owner hasn't already seen a hundred times already?  You can say that that sort of thing is superficial but it something that's enjoyable and Nintendo USED to offer it and once they started focusing on casual gamers they stopped offering it.  So you used to give US this but took it away once you started focusing on THEM?  Who wouldn't feel slighted by that?

And what really annoyed me is that casual gamers DON'T CARE.  So you ask me to compromise my hobby to include a new audience that was never willing to give that hobby a fair shake in the first place, did not contribute financially to the company's success, and has no passion for videogames or Nintendo and will leave the second the novelty has worn off?  What message does that send to your old audience?  So after 20 years of patronage we're supposed to make all sort of concessions for someone that will be a customer for what?  Three years?  They didn't even last the entire lifetime of the Wii and they sure as hell aren't buying Nintendo products now.

Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2014, 08:04:00 PM »
I find this whole line of thinking arrogant anyways. Uncle Bob pointed out that in the past they had a handful of gimmicky games that used accessories and those were mostly flops, Duck Hunt was like Wii Sports it came with the system but sold separately nobody would have bought it.


There is a difference between the "core" Nintendo gamer and the "core" gamer which many "Nintendo" fans fail to take into account. Some of us are not Nintendo fans were are video game fans, and unlike the "cheerleaders" who blindly praise any one company over the other, we try to just enjoy the good games and ignore the crap. Obviously everyone has a different opinion on tastes and what a "core" game is, but the fact is Nintendo chose a different path than their competitors.

Sales alone do not tell the entire picture we all agree on that, and honestly I don't give a **** about sales because I don't need others to like what I like to reaffirm anything, I bought a Sega CD and was perfectly happy with it, most other people think of it as a piece of ****, so what.



Nintendo did something bold last generation, they bet everything on Motion controls. The reason why so many gamers found this odd is because up until that point they had traditionally made hardware that was either on par with or superior to their competitors. With Wii you had a HUGE gap between the two and that was the deal breaker. It isn't that Nintendo abandoned anyone type of gamer they abandoned their own established track record. (keep in mind I am keeping consoles separate from hand held something the cheerleaders forget to do)

I have owned every single Nintendo console up to the Wii, I was generally pretty happy with each except the Wii. With N64 I felt you had to own two consoles to get the full experience so with Wii that was not something new, with Game Cube you should have been able to get the exact same games as the other two but didn't due to sales and maybe lack of online, in the beginning nobody made use of the DVD and near the end games still didn't fill them clear full so it is debatable if that had any impact or not, from a features set maybe for some, but the reason for the lack of games was Nintendo themselves. They only time they ever had good robust support was when they had no real competition and they were the only game in town.


I feel the industry abandoned Nintendo not that Nintendo abandoned their gamers. I do however think the side effect is most of us have moved on and grown tired. As to why we continue to discuss them, because we continue to HOPE things will get better and like what also gets forgotten too often they have a HAND HELD division that is not the same mess as their console division and that means, surprise surprise, many people do still buy their games just not their home consoles.
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Offline alegoicoe

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2014, 09:26:40 PM »
If the Wii was able to at least output a 720p resolution we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think Nintendo gamers couldn't understand why their favorite game franchises were not in HD. That single fact alone caused a mass exodus of Nintendo fans to the other platforms.


Can 240 lines of resolution really cause that big of a difference in perception? YES IT CAN? I completely agree. Even  now I want 10 wii games in HD, as if it's some sort of unfinished experience. In hindsight, I can see why some gamers feel incomplete without HD. (Metroid Prime 3 in HD back in 09 and the gaming world is a different place)


Even now that Nintendo is coming out with HD entries that BTW looks very good and still yet to be released titles such as mario kart, zelda, etc, the novelty of such graphics have been taken away by 6 years of other games showing off HD graphics, its never going to be like when we saw Ocarina of Time or Wind waker in graphical perspectives, which like Ian Sane pointed out, Nintendo before was all about showing what new tech can do.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2014, 11:35:05 PM »
tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS4 and PS3, (for multiplats)

"Hey look, the wood texture in the ps4 version is better and the background is more well defined but otherwise they look almost exactly the same, I am so amazed by the power of next gen"

Offline Shaymin

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2014, 12:21:47 AM »
I believe the core and Nintendo wished each other well in their future endeavors sometime around the time Ravi Drums crashed E3.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2014, 01:34:11 AM »
tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS4 and PS3, (for multiplats)

"Hey look, the wood texture in the ps4 version is better and the background is more well defined but otherwise they look almost exactly the same, I am so amazed by the power of next gen"

To which I say...this:

Xbox 360 - Launch (Dead Rising)




Xbox 360 - End of Life (Halo 4)




PS3 Launch (Resistance: Fall of Man)




PS3 End of Life (The Last of Us)




As you can see, that's a pretty huge jump from the beginning of a console's life cycle to its end. While the games right now on the Xbone & PS4 may not look that different from the games of last gen, that's pretty common. The important thing is what those consoles ended up being able to produce by the end of their life cycles because of the tech put into them in 8-9 years prior (and software compression & coding advances). 

When the PS3 and 360 came out, I seem to remember Nintendo boasting that no one would be able to tell the difference between HD and SD games when justifying the Wii's pitiful SD-only approach. That's a claim that only become more pathetic with each passing year as the 360 and PS3 tech evolved & the Wii remained rooted in 2004-2005. Try saying you can't tell the difference between SD & HD games now with a straight face. I suspect we'll be able to see the same about the Xbone & PS4 games 6-7 years from now, comparatively speaking.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 01:37:48 AM by broodwars »
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Offline ymeegod

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2014, 03:24:04 AM »
"Fragile Dreams
Pandora Tower
Xenoblade Chronicles
The Last Story"

Didn't we have to kick and scream just to get those?  Nintendo was publishing one game per month yet the NA market only received 1/2 of them even though the NA had the majority of the sales--Zangeki comes screaming to mind.

And then there's 3rd titles that Nintendo loved talking about but ending up NEVER coming stateside like Dragon Quest X or Tales of Graces (I had to play the PS3 instead).  Wouldn't be much or an issue except Nintendo has Region LOCK on their consoles.

And Finally you have the systems overall features--mostly my complaint about online oversight.  No party chat?  Friend codes BS.  Games like SSB Brawl never getting patched to fix imbalances in classes.   It was just a kick in the nuts when 3rd party games on the WII had voice chat but 1st party games didn't.

I love Nintendo games but they really need to listen more to what both gamers and developers want and need.

 

Offline Adrock

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2014, 07:10:41 AM »
I love Nintendo games but they really need to listen more to what both gamers and developers want and need.
We can pretty much end this discussion here. I think even the most ardent Nintendo fan can admit this. Nintendo still makes games that resonate with people (even if you aren't in that group) and we can all make our own pros and cons list, but like all things, there's always room for improvement.

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2014, 07:46:57 AM »

We can pretty much end this discussion here.


But how will I get to know everyone's favorite cupcake flavor?

Offline Adrock

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2014, 08:44:46 AM »
Well, unfortunately, no one was really participating in that and this thread was teetering on clusterfuckery. My favorite flavor is chocolate cheesecake. Bonus points awarded if the baker has the foresight to include chocolate chips. I am also quite fond of pumpkin cheesecake.

This post was brought to you by the letter C for Cheesecake.

Offline Ceric

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2014, 09:52:46 AM »
Honestly, I wouldn't use still screens of Halo 4 for graphic comparison because it looks almost exactly like Metroid Prime on Gamecube to me.  I'm sure that's not true in motion.

I wish I could find the article but there was a great one I read a very long time showing the progression of graphics on the Neo-Geo from start to end and its amazing how different those are.
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Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2014, 10:50:53 AM »
There's a $5 cupcake place in downtown Philly that sells these delectable cookies n cream cupcakes that are one of the greatest reasons for living in this city. Sweet Lord they are awesome!




Back in tow...THE LAST STORY in HD would have changed the playing field, well ok not really but it would have been GLORIOUS!

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2014, 12:32:07 PM »
tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS4 and PS3, (for multiplats)

In 2006 you would have said:

tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS3 and PS2, (for multiplats)

I heard this exact argument about a thousand times during the first few years of the Wii's life.  I also recall a lot of claims that the third party support was coming because everyone was just caught off guard by the Wii's success and since it was the best selling console the third party support was going to come and that the hardware was not a real hurdle for porting.

ymeegod makes a great point about the Rainfall games.  How important are core gamers to Nintendo when we needed a whole online movement to get NOA to localize good games?  NOA was so disinterested in anything that wasn't a sure thing massive mainstream hit that they felt that software droughts were better than releasing a niche title.  Xenoblade is one of the best Wii games but it has about zero casual appeal and that's probably exactly why NOA wasn't interested.

Offline alegoicoe

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2014, 02:57:18 PM »
tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS4 and PS3, (for multiplats)

In 2006 you would have said:

tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS3 and PS2, (for multiplats)

I heard this exact argument about a thousand times during the first few years of the Wii's life.  I also recall a lot of claims that the third party support was coming because everyone was just caught off guard by the Wii's success and since it was the best selling console the third party support was going to come and that the hardware was not a real hurdle for porting.

ymeegod makes a great point about the Rainfall games.  How important are core gamers to Nintendo when we needed a whole online movement to get NOA to localize good games?  NOA was so disinterested in anything that wasn't a sure thing massive mainstream hit that they felt that software droughts were better than releasing a niche title.  Xenoblade is one of the best Wii games but it has about zero casual appeal and that's probably exactly why NOA wasn't interested.


In the end i view the WiiU and Wii the same way i viewed gamecube, i have the cinsole for the sole purpose of playing Nintendo produced or exclusives. In regards to the pseudo-nextgen i built my self a $540.00 gaming rig which is on par with the new systems, cause if people criticized the launch of WiiU, this new systems game wise are abysmal.
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Offline Mythtendo

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2014, 03:09:01 PM »
If the Wii was able to at least output a 720p resolution we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think Nintendo gamers couldn't understand why their favorite game franchises were not in HD. That single fact alone caused a mass exodus of Nintendo fans to the other platforms.


Can 240 lines of resolution really cause that big of a difference in perception? YES IT CAN? I completely agree. Even  now I want 10 wii games in HD, as if it's some sort of unfinished experience. In hindsight, I can see why some gamers feel incomplete without HD. (Metroid Prime 3 in HD back in 09 and the gaming world is a different place)


It's not that big of a difference, and back when the Wii came out very few people had HDTVs. So I can understand why Nintendo didn't do it. I would like Wii games in HD, but being SD didn't make the games less good.

Offline broodwars

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2014, 03:14:21 PM »
Honestly, I wouldn't use still screens of Halo 4 for graphic comparison because it looks almost exactly like Metroid Prime on Gamecube to me.  I'm sure that's not true in motion.

I wish I could find the article but there was a great one I read a very long time showing the progression of graphics on the Neo-Geo from start to end and its amazing how different those are.

Eh, I was in a rush and was trying to pick out graphical showpieces from the various platforms. I wanted to use Alan Wake instead, but it was annoyingly difficult to find good 360 screens of the game instead of the PC version.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 03:28:29 PM by broodwars »
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2014, 04:43:27 PM »
I also recall a lot of claims that the third party support was coming because everyone was just caught off guard by the Wii's success and since it was the best selling console the third party support was going to come and that the hardware was not a real hurdle for porting.

Well most of these claims where because third parties were losing millions of dollars because of the huge new budgets the 360/PS3 had created and so it was thought these studio's would eventually get smart and realize there was a cheaper alternative with a very active userbase at the time.  Instead they decided to stick to the HD consoles and many either shut down or were forced to downsize because of cost.  Even these days, we still see studio's being shut down and or downsized every month because of the bomb of just one game.

Even with the Wii U having terrible sales, Nintendo still hasn't lost anything close to the amount of money Sony lost on the PS3 at this point in its life, despite the PS3 having sold better at that same point.  Even with the PS4 selling great, Sony is still shutting down or downsizing some of their gaming studio's because of the enormous cost that the PS4 is just making greater.  How many studio's has Nintendo been closing because of the Wii U?  Oh yeah, they still haven't shut down or downsized any of their gaming studio's despite the Wii U's poor sales.

Yes, for the people who want better graphics you're getting it, but keep in mind those better graphics on Microsoft and Sony's systems have a greater cost that has resulted in many studio's dying a lot quicker.  So it's not like the alternative to what Nintendo is doing is a better one when the rest of the industry hasn't exactly been thriving either.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2014, 05:34:51 PM »
I actually don't see much difference between 480p and 720p, and I'm not sure I can spot the difference between 720p and 1080p. The human eye can only discern so much, and so as resolutions rise, the noticeable difference gets smaller and smaller. The real difference maker between the Wii and PS360 is the specs, and it isn't like playing PS360 games in 480p made them look like Wii games, nor does up-resing Wii games make them look like PS360 games.

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Offline shingi_70

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2014, 06:31:00 PM »
480p is so blurrly. I watched a movie in SD the other day and it was terrible.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2014, 09:48:32 PM »
Bear in mind that it's not really 240 "lines of resolution" - 720p is 2.24x the image quality (potentially) of 480p.
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Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2014, 03:03:23 PM »
480p vs 720p is night and day for me and I'm not a video snob with monster gold cables and $5000. 720p would have went a long way in my neck of the trees.

Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2014, 05:08:46 PM »
I actually don't see much difference between 480p and 720p, and I'm not sure I can spot the difference between 720p and 1080p. The human eye can only discern so much, and so as resolutions rise, the noticeable difference gets smaller and smaller. The real difference maker between the Wii and PS360 is the specs, and it isn't like playing PS360 games in 480p made them look like Wii games, nor does up-resing Wii games make them look like PS360 games.

Also strawberry cheesecake is the best.

People always say this "the human eye can only see this or that" nonsense all the time, which is total bullshit (no offense, and this isn't necessarily directed towards you, but you used those magic words)and is just something that they read on the internet. If you can't see the difference, you have terrible eyes. Go look at a 55" 1080p TV, and then go look at a 55" 4KTV. Night and day - while 1080p does look great, 4K looks *amazing*. Even on a cell phone screen (lets say 5") the difference between 480p, 720p, and 1080p are all very obvious.

Now, resolution isn't everything, but go on YouTube and watch videos of people playing GameCube or Wii games on Dolphin at 1080p, the difference is quite clear. The games don't have any added effects, there isn't a single extra polygon being pushed, they are still the same games, just running at a higher resolution (yes, sometimes things like FSAA are added, but that's a different story).
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2014, 05:19:20 PM »
Is there anyone who would want to stand by that movie after those ratings?  ;)

Offline Phil

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2014, 06:47:08 PM »
I'm not too hip with resolution. I probably notice the differences subconsciously, but I don't think I've ever seen one and then the other soon after to make a comparison.
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2014, 07:02:09 PM »
I actually don't see much difference between 480p and 720p, and I'm not sure I can spot the difference between 720p and 1080p. The human eye can only discern so much, and so as resolutions rise, the noticeable difference gets smaller and smaller. The real difference maker between the Wii and PS360 is the specs, and it isn't like playing PS360 games in 480p made them look like Wii games, nor does up-resing Wii games make them look like PS360 games.

Also strawberry cheesecake is the best.

People always say this "the human eye can only see this or that" nonsense all the time, which is total bullshit (no offense, and this isn't necessarily directed towards you, but you used those magic words)and is just something that they read on the internet. If you can't see the difference, you have terrible eyes. Go look at a 55" 1080p TV, and then go look at a 55" 4KTV. Night and day - while 1080p does look great, 4K looks *amazing*. Even on a cell phone screen (lets say 5") the difference between 480p, 720p, and 1080p are all very obvious.

Now, resolution isn't everything, but go on YouTube and watch videos of people playing GameCube or Wii games on Dolphin at 1080p, the difference is quite clear. The games don't have any added effects, there isn't a single extra polygon being pushed, they are still the same games, just running at a higher resolution (yes, sometimes things like FSAA are added, but that's a different story).


Finally someone with sense. Unless you're like 20 feet away from the TV you'll notice a difference between 480p vs. 720p, 720p vs. 1080p, and 1080p vs. 4k.

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2014, 07:09:00 PM »
I can see the difference between 720p and 1080p if I compare side-by-side, but if I'm just looking at one screen then I probably couldn't say if it's 720p or 1080p. Most people are similar, though it also depends on the content. I was more saying that the difference between resolutions gets smaller with each increase. Diminishing returns and all that. 240i to 480i/p was a huge jump up, 480p to 720p was a decent jump, 720p to 1080p is a smaller jump, and so fourth. I haven't seen a 4K TV yet, just higher-resolution laptops and tablets, and I can't really compare those to TVs. We haven't yet reached the max resolution a human eye can discern, but we probably will soon, though the max will vary from person to person.

My original point was more that if the Wii could output 720p but still with the same specs it has now, there would still be a huge gap in graphics between it and the PS360. Specs make a much bigger difference in graphics than resolution.

Offline Oblivion

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2014, 07:18:47 PM »
Then that's a problem with you because I am constantly in front of a television screen in my house, no matter what I am doing. Whether it be schoolwork, video games, movies, etc. If you put an image, video, or game on my screen I could tell you the resolution without having to ask or see a comparison.


The diminishing returns argument ONLY works if the screen size stays the same (for the sake of argument, try a 42 inch television and test all the resolution benchmarks). But as the resolution increases, so can the screen size without everything looking gross. 4K resolution allows for HUGE ass televisions without a dip in quality of the picture. You'd definitely be able to tell the difference without comparisons.


The problem with your argument is that if the Wii could output the 720p, it would have the specs to handle better graphics. Specs affect both graphics and the ability to display higher resolutions.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2014, 07:29:43 PM »
I notice the difference between 480p and 720p fairly easily, less so but still yes between 720p and 1080p. 4K looks great though I've only seen it in Best Buy. Does it look $4000 great? Jebus, no. I sit about nine feet away from my TV. The 60" 1080p LED-LCD TV I plan on buying in the next couple months should suit my purposes just fine (I can hardly contain my excitement for playing Super Smash Bros. on that screen). I wouldn't say no to 4K if price wasn't an issue, but unfortunately, it is and there's a nearly $3000 difference. By the time I even think about replacing this new TV, 4K should be well within my price range.

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2014, 07:31:37 PM »
That's true about screen sizes, and also the proximity to the screen that someone views it. There's a limit to what people can fit in their houses though, and also a limit to how big portable devices can be, so that will probably matter more with things like stadium screens and movie theaters and such.

Obviously specs affect everything, but if the original Xbox could output 720p then the Wii probably was capable of it. Displaying Wii-level graphics in 720p probably would just be a small increase in specs; matching the abilities of the Xbox 360 and PS3 would take a lot more than just displaying Wii level graphics in 720p.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2014, 08:09:25 PM »
4K is neat and all, but with the consoles that just came out having trouble getting to 1080p I don't think it'll be relevant to gaming anytime soon.
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Offline Oblivion

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2014, 11:17:17 PM »
4K is neat and all, but with the consoles that just came out having trouble getting to 1080p I don't think it'll be relevant to console gaming anytime soon.


Fixed that for you. 4k PC gaming is alive and well. Makes me jealous. >.<

Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2014, 12:48:47 AM »
I'm not saying 4K for gaming, I'm just saying that the "human eye can't see past 1080p or 60FPS, etc" is complete garbage. If you have a CRT monitor, set it to 60Hz, then 75Hz (or 85Hz) then 100Hz, if you can't see the difference then you need to go see an eye doctor.


And again, for Mop It Up this time, 1080p gives you 2.25 the definition of 720p. The difference between 720p and 1080p is not smaller than the difference between 480p and 720p, they are literally the same in terms of difference.


But of course outputting 720p would not make the Wii anywhere remotely as powerful as the PS3 or 360, but giving it a little more VRAM and a larger framebuffer would have made the games that were on it look a lot nicer.


On a side note, I've been tempted lately to get a new 70"+ TV since they are so cheap now...but I'm gonna wait until 4KTV takes off, because I can see the difference, even on my 52" from 10 feet away.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 12:54:08 AM by Brandogg »
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2014, 01:10:15 AM »
I was talking about the noticeable difference, not the technical difference.

Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2014, 01:22:47 AM »
I was talking about both.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2014, 01:37:57 AM »
It would have to be a larger screen to make that kind of difference.

Offline Oblivion

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2014, 02:32:49 AM »
It would have to be a larger screen to make that kind of difference.


How large do you think? Anything larger than a 32 at a decent distance away will be immediately noticeable. Get closer for things like phones, tablets, laptops, and desktops and it will take a much smaller screen to see the difference.

I'm pretty sure I said this a few hours ago. At this point we're all just arguing in circles. Obviously nothing will convince you of the difference since your mind is so set on viewing things a certain way.

No offense, but you're the kind of customer that gives me a bad day at work.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 02:35:32 AM by Oblivion »

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2014, 08:37:30 AM »
The cost/benefit for 4K is just not there unless you absolutely have to have 4K PC gaming. 
 
Most cable/satellite content is 720p/1080i now with a few programs at 1080p so they can say they provide 1080p.  My internet isn't capable of streaming 1080p so I won't be streaming 4K anytime soon.  No media is currently mass produced that would allow 4K viewing on the set.  So if you buy a 4K screen, you do so knowing that most content with be 1080p upscaled. 
 
Quote
I was talking about both.

Brandogg - you have to realize that there are diminishing returns.  I've not seen a 4K tv with 4K content so I'm not going to pretend like I know if it makes a difference.  But at some point, if 100K was the standard and new tvs were going to be 200K would anybody notice a difference on a 60" or less (that most people own) without looking at the screen from 1" away?

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2014, 09:31:46 AM »
4K is neat and all, but with the consoles that just came out having trouble getting to 1080p I don't think it'll be relevant to console gaming anytime soon.


Fixed that for you. 4k PC gaming is alive and well. Makes me jealous. >.<

Yeah, but how many games really take advantage of it? You'd need a pretty high end graphics card, and most games these days are build with consoles in mind, so I doubt the textures are there to make a real difference.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2014, 09:40:19 AM »
We're kind of splitting off into several different topics here. 4K gaming by and large does not exist yet, unless you have a super expensive graphics card, and a game that actually takes advantage of it. Wii U is dead.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2014, 01:02:45 PM »
How large do you think?
Back when I researched televisions a few years ago, the recommendations I found all suggested that 1080p didn't make much difference over 720p unless the TV size was over a certain size, and that size was somewhere between 40-50 inches depending on viewing distance. A quick glance on Google shows the same sort of thing today. It'll also depend on the person of course, but this appears to be about the general consensus.

And yeah, I was just talking about televisions, if I didn't make that clear. Obviously things like computers and tablets and such are a different case since the screens are positioned so much closer to the user's face, and very high resolutions are needed in order to not see the pixels and have the “screen door” effect. VR headsets will require an even higher resolution since they're directly in front of the eyes.

No offense, but you're the kind of customer that gives me a bad day at work.
Funnily enough, I've had the same thought about you. :P:

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Re: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2014, 05:42:12 PM »
No offense, but you're the kind of customer that gives me a bad day at work.
Funnily enough, I've had the same thought about you. :P: :

Actually, this is one of those conversations that would probably have had less confusion in the spoken word.


But I thought we were best friends! :(


Yeah, most definitely.