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Messages - smallsharkbigbite

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51
TalkBack / Re: Comparing Wii U's Sales to GameCube, Wii
« on: April 27, 2014, 04:50:51 PM »
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You seem to not like these Nintendo is doomed discussions.  Am I right?  I'm more concerned about your sanity than moral highground.
First, you claimed in a previous post to hate personal insults then you personally insult me here by questioning my sanity. Nice.


I was thinking if you do a you'll get c when you really want b which would make you go crazy.  If you took it as me explicitly saying you were crazy me inferring you were crazy I'm sorry.  I've used this metaphor lots of times and I'm not sure any ones questioned me as personally attacking them but I'll watch using it in the future. 

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This is the second time you've brought this up and I don't understand why you're specifically addressing this to me when I have not directly participated in this latest anti-Nintendo/pro-Nintendo argument, nor have I ever tried to change anyone's opinion in the past. My responses in previous discussions have referred specifically to something that didn't make sense to me, rather than an attempt to persuade them otherwise. My contribution to this thread, however, can be summed up with: Why are we even talking about this again?


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Something, something motion controls. Something, something last generation hardware. Something, something sequels.

I'm pretty sure I just saved at least five people several paragraphs of ranting, but they'll probably write them anyway.


Did you get your clarification on that?

52
TalkBack / Re: Comparing Wii U's Sales to GameCube, Wii
« on: April 27, 2014, 02:19:27 PM »

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I think you're completely missing the point. One side specifically keeps bringing it up.

The he started it argument.  That never went well with my parents.  They always countered with "Well, I'm ending it!"  I still think both sides like to get their jabs in when they can.  Either way, I don't think continuing a fight because someone else started it is a good idea. 

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There's no counterargument if the argument isn't rendered to begin with. Additionally, that discussion has had its day, many times in fact. I suppose the counterargument-crowd could take the high-road though


I'm not sure their is a moral highground here, we are talking video games after all.  I mean is it morally wrong to suggest Nintendo isn't doing well?  Remember 5 years ago when everything turned into a it prints money thread?  Should we have banned those people?  Those Gifs were pretty awesome though.  Maybe somebody should make better Gifs for our current discussions.  The pro Nintendo group could photoshop Iwata on Arnold from the terminator.  It could say "Those that doubt my leadership will be terminated."  The doomed group could have a Gif of a ship full of Wii Us going down over the Pacific with the caption "And nothing of value was lost."  Someone more creative could probably come up with better Gif ideas. 


You seem to not like these Nintendo is doomed discussions.  Am I right?  I'm more concerned about your sanity than moral highground.  The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and expecting new results.  What happens when you respond to these Nintendo is doomed threads?  Did they either clarify their argument, tell you that your counter arguments weren't valid, or bring up new reasons why Nintendo was failing?  Then did you feel the need to counter argument their counter argument?  Did your attempt to end the argument extend the argument several pages until someone grew tired of going in circles?  Nobody ever wins these arguments.  I mean, I guess I would say if you love these discussions, then yes, respond to every person who criticizes Nintendo and keep extending those threads.  Otherwise, just let it go, it's not worth getting riled up and similar to your argument above you can't change anything.  99.99% of the time nobody ever changes their opinion based on a forum reply. 

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We can't have normal discussions here because threads keep being steered toward things that have been discussed to death. I decided not to get involved in that collective nonsense this time and yet have been drawn into a different kind of nonsense though in my defense, I am responding now because you specifically called me out.
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iAttacking just one side of the argument isn't going to solve the problem.
Targeting the source of the problem might.


I disagree.  Based on the title of this thread I knew it would devolve into this, but far from every post does.  I ignore posts and topics all the time that I simply don't care to discuss.  I don't want to sound too negative, but is it possible that forum discussions are suffering around here because Nintendo is not bringing many new games to the market to discuss?  It seems to me you can only do so many Final Four of the last 15 years, or what's the best Zelda topics before people get tired of that as well.  But as I said above, I don't think you targeting individuals is going to solve anything but increase these thread counts.  You could message forum moderators and try to get them to lock these discussions and ban repeat offenders.  But that puts NWR in a tough spot too because these threads always end up being the most popular and either way they act could send a portion of their userbase looking for new forums. 

53
The cost/benefit for 4K is just not there unless you absolutely have to have 4K PC gaming. 
 
Most cable/satellite content is 720p/1080i now with a few programs at 1080p so they can say they provide 1080p.  My internet isn't capable of streaming 1080p so I won't be streaming 4K anytime soon.  No media is currently mass produced that would allow 4K viewing on the set.  So if you buy a 4K screen, you do so knowing that most content with be 1080p upscaled. 
 
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I was talking about both.

Brandogg - you have to realize that there are diminishing returns.  I've not seen a 4K tv with 4K content so I'm not going to pretend like I know if it makes a difference.  But at some point, if 100K was the standard and new tvs were going to be 200K would anybody notice a difference on a 60" or less (that most people own) without looking at the screen from 1" away?

54
TalkBack / Re: Comparing Wii U's Sales to GameCube, Wii
« on: April 27, 2014, 08:24:26 AM »
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You all either enjoy stroking yourselves to your own complaining, or you think every other forum member suffers from short-term memory loss thus requiring reiteration of these same complaints.

Adrock, I normally like reading your posts but this is pretty harsh.  I think both sides of the argument enjoy stroking themselves.  You said in your prior post that you could mount a defense based completely on old posts.  Both sides regurgitate the same arguments repeatedly.  Both sides could let this thread die and let it go.  Who cares whether the first or last post was pro/anti-Nintendo.  It's not either sides job to educate the other side. 
 
What you're doing is the equivalent of standing on a random street corner with a picket sign and a bullhorn.

If that's true, then the equivalent of defending Nintendo against said people is:
 
You are walking to work and someone is standing on the corner yelling things loudly that you don't like in an area that you frequent (the nerve).
So you get your own bullhorn and stand on the opposite side of the street yelling at them trying to cancel them out, yelling louder and stronger than them hoping to silence them. 
 
Neither thing is productive.  Attacking just one side of the argument isn't going to solve the problem. 
 
I also hate the personal attacks.  I get it's annoying when people come in and say "Nintendo sucks because x!", but do we really need to respond with "You suck because y!"?

55
Nintendo Gaming / Re: Amazing Deals!
« on: April 25, 2014, 07:48:56 AM »

56

We can pretty much end this discussion here.


But how will I get to know everyone's favorite cupcake flavor?

57
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Game for game the Wii can hold its own with the top 20 games from PS360,

Gaming tastes are so subjective that I don't really like statements like this.  Many of the games on your list are niche as they didn't broadly appeal to those that owned Wiis (didn't sell well) despite almost everyone owning a Wii.  I think what you also see that as tastes have become more broad in gaming, it's not always about matching the top 20 games.  Sometimes those games that aren't considered top of the line for the console really push gamers to the system because they are able to connect with those games. 

I still think on a genre by genre basis Nintendo fails to match their competitors leading to poor sales.  I'm not going to go genre by genre as a comparison.  I listed racing above, but that's not as popular of a genre.  A more important genre is FPS.  It's probably the most important genre right now and I would find it hard for someone to argue that Nitnendo is on even footing in the genre.  So people that like that genre will pass over getting a Nintendo system in favor of a competitor.  Most people that would argue against this don't really like the FPS genre.  So again, the Wii games may be your preference, but in the larger market Nintendo is failing because they don't provide many games that have mass appeal.  I largely hate FPS, but I see their importance in the market place. 

58
Donkey Kong Jr. Math (Brain Training)
World Class Track Meet (Wii Fit)
Duck Hunt (Motion Controls)
Gyromite (Gimmick Accessory)


Come on.  Duck Hunt is pointer controls, Bad Street Brawler with the glove is motion controls. 

59
Not a big cupcake fan.  But I love those mini-pecan pies. 

Nintendo doesn't make core games is an extremist argument and not true.  I'd love to own every video game system but it's just not feasible.  People with limited money have to decide which player to go with. 

Nintendo is falling behind most of the offerings of the other big video game players.  Nintendo owns platforming, if that's your major interest there is no reason to not be happy with what Nintendo brings to the table.  I love racing games (can't give enough of them really).  Mario Kart is an awesome racing game but that's really all Nintendo has.  I tend to go to the simulation side of racing (Gran Turismo, Forza, Nascar, F1, Dirt) and Nintendo has nothing there.  They also don't have other good arcade titles like Burnout, NFS, Motorstorm, Midnight Club, Dirt, etc, etc and they don't have wheel support which sucks big time.

That certainly doesn't make Nintendo game systems useless for me, they just don't offer what the other players offer in genres I like.  I'm actually a two system guy because I do also like platforming and some of the key Nintendo franchises (Mario Kart, Pikmin, Smash).  The more time and $ I spend on other systems I view as opportunity for Nintendo.  They used to be my only system and I wish they could provide that experience to be my only system again.  It's not that I intentionally try to be negative on Nintendo because I enjoy their current games.  But I can't help feeling like it would be so easy for them to improve certain aspects and they are unwilling to. 

60
TalkBack / Re: Comparing Wii U's Sales to GameCube, Wii
« on: April 23, 2014, 11:35:35 AM »
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Have you seen the last few editorials? This month we've already had 2 editorials slamming Mario Kart 8 and this one on Wii U's sales. 3 out of 4 editorials in April isn't really staying balanced.

One month is the determination of balance?  I guess I think their are different levels of negativity. The MK gameplay argument wasnt really negative to me. The article says MK looks amazing but it is disappointing that the gamepad usage is worse than Sonic Transformed had. It looks like fact to me that the gamepad will have worse usage than transformed so I don't really see the article as negative/controversial.

This article isn't even that bad. Mostly sales facts with an opinion than sales are dissapointing. Had the author opined the that Nintendo was failing or what they were doing wrong I could see this as a negative piece but that's not in here.

The only one I think is overtly negative is the MK lazy article. Calling a game lazy before it's released is pretty bold.

61
TalkBack / Re: Comparing Wii U's Sales to GameCube, Wii
« on: April 23, 2014, 09:25:14 AM »
I must also say that there is sick, almost perverse obsession with the Wii U's massive failure.

So many articles, so many discussions as to why it's not selling, so many "look at how shitty these sales are! rofl" pieces that it gets to the point where it just becomes noise.

It's repeated ad nauseum, again and again, and it's just boring now.

I actually think NWR does a good job at staying balanced and not being negative. There are many other Nintendo sites that run articles every time Nintendo doesn't get a game, or doesn't do an event or a developer rails Nintendo and there is no thread on here. I think it would do you well to not take things so personally. Your first thread you called Ian retarded and his argument one of the stupidest. Those personal attacks are out of line, he didn't personally attack you. You can respond to his old/new argument without those attacks.

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So after the 455th article about the Wii U selling like water to a drowning Nintendo executive, it gets really tiring and tedious to continue to read about the Wii U's sales, only this time the discussion is worded slightly differently to fool people into thinking something has changed.

Nope. "The Wii U has sold like ****, and it continues to sell like ****."
That would be my headline, and the body of it would read, "The end."

You have to realize that your responses to this thread are part of the problem. If every one of these threads was 5 posts of people crapping on Nintendo these threads would die quickly. But instead it's 5 posts crapping, then 5 posts defending, then 5 posts crapping, then 5 posts defending until it's the most popular thread. You can't change peoples opinion. The internet is a wasteland of negativity. You'll be much happier if you realize you can still enjoy the Wii U and its games even if others don't. Nintendo doesn't need you to defend them, they are capable of doing it themselves.

62
TalkBack / Re: Comparing Wii U's Sales to GameCube, Wii
« on: April 22, 2014, 08:07:44 PM »
I don't think the market's that expanded from where it was with the GameCube. It certainly was for a while with the Wii, but I think a lot of that audience has moved on, which is a significant part of Nintendo's problem here.

Depends on how narrowly you define the market.  Clearly more people play games today than did 5 years ago.  Unfortunately for Nintendo, Apple makes the casual gaming/multi-media device now. 

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On a personal level, the second it was clear this was another Wii, I didn't want it.

It's not remotely another Wii.  The pro controller is phenomenal, the gamepad is a great traditional controller with a screen, and Wii U isn't powerful but it's much closer to the PS4 than the Wii was to the PS3.  The biggest problem with the Wii U is a lack of games.  Nintendo has struggled to provide their normal breath of games because they weren't prepared for HD and terrible 3rd party relations have changed to non-existant. 

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Man, this is like comparing apples to Segway scooters.

What would be a better comparison then?  The two numbers that mean something are expected sales (9.0M vs. 2. :cool; and profit (negative).  There is no argument that the Wii U is selling well or selling as much as Nintendo needs it to. 

63
Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 19, 2014, 01:39:32 PM »
The Wii wasn't the cause of bad third party support. That goes back to restricting developers in the '80s and early '90s, then purposely making the N64 hard to developer and only involving a few companies early on. I'd argue the Wii had better third party support than any Nintendo console since the SNES. The Wii only hurt third party support to the extent that it shaped the approach for Wii U.


I'm not saying Nintendo didn't have a long standing 3rd party problem.  It just seemed to me like Nintendo, with the Wii, embraced not directly competing with Sony/Microsoft and embraced that they didn't need third parties making the problem exponentially worse.  I loved the Gamecube and thought it had pretty good third party support including most multi-plat games.  Most "major" third party games skipped the Wii.  This was the first generation that I expected most of the top 10 in the NPD chart to not be on a Nintendo console.  Before it seemed likely that it was going to be on a Nintendo console even if the Nintendo version didn't sell the best. 


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I never argued anywhere that I was a fan of how they were managing their time and assets, I just don't agree with your reasoning supporting your argument.


There are dozens of ways Nintendo is mismanaging their resources.  We could have a debate of which way is more important to Nintendo's success (or current lack thereof) but that doesn't seem to be of much value for the board (plus it seems there has been other threads that have devolved to that). 

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Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 19, 2014, 12:20:07 PM »
Let me make it clear that my argument is over the situation with the original Wii.

I accept that the Wii was a huge success.  But in my mind, they made one brilliant decision (motion control), some good decisions, and a bunch of poor decisions on the Wii.  Those poor decisions may not have affected the profitability of the Wii(because that one decision was so good), but they are leading to their demise on Wii U today.  I don't accept that because they had one brilliant decision that they should get a pass for their subsequent poor decisions. 

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You do realize that the Wii U is coming off of the Wii which had **** for core 3rd party support regardless of selling over 100Million units right?
 

Yes, and the reasons they had no third party support on the Wii was mainly correctable and they chose not to address them.  They've said their strategy is to sell alot and third parties will flock to them.  The Wii is proof that that strategy doesn't work and is a failure and they still refuse to change that strategy.  Without going through the whole third party debate again, I'll just highlight one item that would make a world of difference.  Bringing in third parties initially and working with them on what you are doing and seeing if you can include them on development of the console (as far as items they may want to have on the console).  Doesn't cost anything, just means you have to treat third parties as partners rather than piles of crap.

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They were supposed to refine motion control technology on the Wii U and greatly expand on online and account integration. Maybe add camera tracking and leap frog the PS3 era of graphics, instead we got a half baked concept with lots of potential but no ambition towards fully pushing the technology and all it promises.

So it sounds like you aren't a fan of their management decisions?  So you do agree with me then. 

65
Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 19, 2014, 10:29:14 AM »
Okay, here's my problem.  It doesn't really matter if the Wii sold 25M, 200M, 50M, whatever.  Nintendo definitely should have known that by not giving a control scheme that developers were used to, or power that was comparable to others that they were going to hurt 3rd party relations.  Now, maybe you are going to make a budget console and you think that you have to do what they did.  You need to have a plan to work with third parties and bring their games to your system.  Nintendo did not.  That's a complete failure on management part to think that third parties are not important and it's leading to the failure of the Wii U.  If they can't have foreseen that, then they are not good at their job. 

Next, I think what people are trying to say with "how can you predict the market" is that it's hard to innovate.  I'm not going to argue that it's hard to innovate.  Look at one hit wonders in the music industry.  They make hundreds of songs and only one catches mainstream.  Even popular bands are lucky if 10% of their music makes the top 10 charts.  So I believe this is also a failure of Nintendo.  They've decided that they must reinvent the way people game every generation.  The problem with that is they are going to fail more times than they succeed. 

So how is it a failure?  They should release a solid console with great third party support so if they can't reinvent the way people game, people still want to buy their system.  PS4 is looking like it's going to dominate this gen.  Is it innovative?  Not in the traditional sense because it doesn't do anything particularly new.  But it does take the previous gen and does everything better.  Nintendo should have a console that as a baseline, does everything better than the previous gen (and this includes having good third party games).  It's not that Sony is saying we can't change the way people game, they are working on a VR headset.  Maybe it's too early for VR headsets to work financially, or maybe a different technology will supplant that technology.  But they are doing things well and trying to improve gaming at the same time.

Tying yourself to innovation (and a very specific type of innovation in reinventing the way people game) is a management failure.  It's unsustainable that every generation they can reinvent the way people game and drive the market.    Successful innovation like the Wii is hugely profitable which is why they've tied themselves to this goal.  The problem is failure is not profitable as they are seeing in the Wii U.  They need a safety net when they aren't able to innovate.  The lack of safety net is a management failure in my eyes. 

66
Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 19, 2014, 08:26:11 AM »
Michael Pachter works for a financial firm and is paid to drum up interest in video game and get people to spend on investments.  I thought it was long debunked that he's an analyst that projects the market.  I'd say he's successful at drumming up video game interest even if he has to say a bunch of controversial things to get face time in the media.  If Nintendo doesn't have someone better than him at projecting the market, then that just points to them making yet another key management mistake.   

67
Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 18, 2014, 03:16:56 PM »
I also think it's wrong to discount the price point of the Wii as part of its phenom status. If the Wii had the same hardware level as the PS360 + motion controls, I have my doubts that it would have taken the world by storm to the extent that it did. I'm much more of the opinion that the big mistake with the Wii was leaving out the second gyro in the Wiimote.

The Wii was sold out at $250 for like 3 years. When sales tanked price cuts didn't drum up business. I don't think price was a big factor in the Wii success.  But that wasn't really my point. The point was the lack of parity with competitors isolated Nintendo from third parties and turned off a portion of core gamers. Those two issues are the biggest things stopping Wii U success and will be the biggest issue in making future Nintendo consoles successful. Maybe $250 was the optimal profit point for the Wii (not really worth arguing at this point).  But they sacrificed long term stability and profits by going after short term profits.

68
Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 18, 2014, 03:09:36 PM »
Business is risk.  Sometimes things take off, and some don't.

People that develop things that take off get rewarded and people that don't either get fired or fall into obscurity.

What are you arguing?  That Nintendo is a victim that couldn't figure out the market?  They have no responsibility in the Wii U shortcomings?

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Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 18, 2014, 10:50:04 AM »
And the gamepad was late to the market and it was never going to catch on without compelling software which Nintendo do still hasn't provided. The last game they made DKC turned the screen off.

All I'm saying is the Wii U is a collection of decisions by Nintendo and the Wii U is failing for those decisions. Some of those decisions were difficult and some were easy. But at end of the day, Nintendo's management is responsible for the Wii U failing and they should have made different decisions to help it succeed.

I don't personally see that as a controversial stance. What's the alternative?  That business is just luck?  Management of the company has no bearing on performance?  Nobody at Apple should ever be commended, they just got lucky that the market went their way?  Nobody could have made a Nintendo console successful so we can't be dissapointed in decisions on the Wii U? 

Is that the counterargument?  I get reading the market is difficult, but the best companies do it very well. Nintendo is in a poor position now because of decisions they made (many of which were questioned at the time)

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Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 18, 2014, 08:11:52 AM »
Most predictions are wrong to some extent.  It usually makes sense to pick an example on the extreme end to show the importance of getting an important decision right.  I could talk about the analysis in picking between two cars, but they are so similar now-a-days that slight buyers remorse is about the worse you are going to get by choosing the wrong one and nobody loses their job. 


The reality is people at Nintendo are paid to figure out the market and be smarter than us armchair quarterbacks.  They've made alot of poor decisions recently (letting Wii go too long, destroying third party support, pricing 3DS initially very high slowing growth, placing Wii U in bad competitive position for multitude of reasons, , not having first party games ready to support console launches, not working on network services, etc.).  Somebody at Nintendo makes at least 6 figures (probably 7) to see those are things they need to correct before they happen.  You can't expect them to be right 100% of the time, but they should see much of that coming and they shouldn't be so far off (2.8M vs. 9.0M) in their expectations of the market.  Most jobs have a level of accountability when you are failing at your job. 

71
Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 17, 2014, 10:00:18 PM »
I don't think there is a difference.  If you think it's going to do well you price it accordingly.  After the Gamecube they probably weren't expecting much more than 25-30M, but they could've priced it $100 more and made that volume work.  Then if it becomes the bonanza it did, it's pure profit after that. 

I have a hard time using conservatism to justify bad decisions.  Nintendo has had 4 straight operating losses, lost all major third party support, and is on track to have the worst selling console since the Dreamcast.  I hope they don't conserve themselves into irrelevance in the market. 


Plus, you can say Nintendo can't have known how the market was going to go, but they have several people that make lots of $ that have that job description.  They are supposed to be good at knowing the markets wants and meeting them and having a good idea of how their console will sell.  Nobody said it was easy.  I'm a football fan, so I'll give you a football example.  Some analysts think the Texans are stupid if they pass on Johnny Manziel because they think he is a difference maker and the best player in the draft.  Other analysts think he has too many flaws and is a headcase and they wouldn't draft him at all.  Each team has a GM and it's their job to decide to either draft Johnny Manziel or not.  They'll either look like a genius or they'll get fired for that decision.  Nintendo is playing with real money here, they can't just shrug their shoulders and say their job is hard. 

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Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 17, 2014, 09:28:25 PM »
Here's the thing though.  How is it a bigger risk?  Put $100 more tech into it and charge $100 more.  The only risk is if it doesn't move at all then and I don't think anybody really thought it wouldn't move at all. 

73
Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 17, 2014, 09:21:18 PM »
It's not believing them or me.  They had their blue ocean strategy.  Motion controls were designed to be innovative and appeal to everybody and that's why the Wii was popular.  I don't see how there is an argument here. 


It's easy to say that it was risky but I just don't see how.  Every console Nintendo sold sold less than the previous at that point.  They were looking at a Wii U if they didn't take some risks.  Plus the difference between us and them is they had tried the Wii prior to releasing it.  Everybody that gets it in their hands immediately understands it and knew why it was going to be big.  If they played it and still didn't think it was going to be big, they are less bright than I give them credit for. 

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Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 17, 2014, 09:01:49 PM »
The technical specs may have been focused on Japan, but that isn't why it was successful.  It was successful for motion control which in no way was a Japanese thing because it didn't even exist before.


It's not the same thing.  There were tons of industry analysts panning Nintendo for not going HD.  I remember being dissapointed when they opted for not HD and I'm sure many on this board were too.  People saw that coming from a mile away.  That was a told you so, not a hindsight is 20/20 situation. 

75
Nintendo Gaming / Re: Official Sales Thread
« on: April 17, 2014, 08:53:41 PM »
The console market is shrinking so much. Compare five years ago to now, and it's just incredible.


That's not really a fair comparison.  5 years ago, PS3/Xbox360 had undergone price cuts (pretty significant in case of PS3) and had great lineups.  A more valid comparison would be 7-8 years ago when the market was struggling with moving towards high priced consoles and not many exclusive games to move.  The PS3 struggled to sell it's first launch million for a couple of months.  Then it went on to sell >80M.  Sales generally improve greatly after the first official price cut and after a couple of holiday seasons.   

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