Author Topic: Pokémon Sun and Moon  (Read 10444 times)

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Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2016, 03:01:04 AM »
Did you ever try the harder difficulty on BW and BW2, Lucario?

Offline Oedo

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2016, 10:46:08 AM »
Perhaps it's because I love these games more for the world of Pokemon and less for the technical or competitive aspects of it, but I really liked Pokemon X and Y. Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire might be my least favourite entries in the mainline series though.

I am glad to hear that (from what you're describing, Clex) they're making a conscious effort to tighten up the technical aspects of Sun and Moon to ensure that all sides of the fanbase will be happy with these games. One more week to go!

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2016, 05:55:12 PM »
I didn't play X or Alpha Sapphire, despite owning them, but I'm excited for Sun. Should be a fun game.

I feel you skipped a really disappointing Generation that near killed my love for Pokemon.

I thought it was really fun.  Like my 3rd fave. :(
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Offline Lucario

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2016, 02:29:15 AM »
Did you ever try the harder difficulty on BW and BW2, Lucario?
Skipped 5th gen didn't like the Pokemon.
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Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2016, 05:45:17 PM »
@Lucario To each their own...


@Odeo, Nickmitch Oh boy, where do I begin...? see, X and Y are great if you're into competitive pokemon. it's faster than ever to get your pokes ready to go, easier than ever to get 31 IV pokes, fix ability snafus in your breeding... Wonder Trade makes Dex completion so easy, and I love PSS, using hoarde battles for EV training, trainer customization, and the introduction of areas where you can hold a single direction to go in a circle for the purpose of egg hatching. O-powers are kinda great for that too. Friend Safari is a really cool idea in concept. I suppose I really love Goodra, Aegislash, Greninja, and Hawlucha's designs. oh, and battle Restaurants are great for grinding but immediatley got outclassed by blissey bases. too bad I boycotted ORAS. I also want to give shout-outs to the fairy type for actually being a really welcome addition to the meta that desperatley needed to make Poison better. 

That's where my praise ends.

in some ill-concieved manner to combat the EXP curve that BW/BW2 introduced, they put in a buffed EXP all and got rid of any sort of EXP splitting. this would be nice and all, but they also got rid of the BW/BW2 curve, which results in you getting showered in ExP. in spite of many ill-concieved attempts to rebalance my team because of stuff I'd get through wonder trade, I ended up rebreeding several times and I STILL ended up woefully overleveled by the time I marched my way up to the pokemon league. a lot of the NPCs are woefully unmemorable. the group of friends rival thing was handled poorly, the only reason I remember Team Flair at all is because Lysandre is possibly a more incompetent villan than Dr. Wily. The soundtrack is awful and X and Y is the first game in the series I chose to play muted because I refused to expose myself to the godawful Wild pokemon battle theme any more or the gym leader battle theme ripped straight from Tube Slider. the lack of new pokes was disheartening and disappointing, and I felt most of the new pokemon came at the expense of the one-generation focus on Mega Evolution, which... is another mechanic I could write a 7 paragrpah essay on how much I dislike. the fact that extra megas were added to ORAS and X and Y not getting a compatability patch to at least be able to interact with the new content of ORAS was unacceptable (don't tell me they couldn't patch the game, they issued a patch for a game breaking bug where you'd get stuck in the floor in Lumiose City if you saved and reloaded there). The roller skates were an ill-concieved concept that I feel caused more problems than solutions to the whole grid based map movement. there was a huge bait and switch with the ride pokemon. any routes involving Rhyhorn are unbearable. The Sky battle mechanic was incredibly pointless. because nobody at gamefreak knows out to code with system optimization in mind and they decided to make these rediculously overdetailed models that will probably look good on Switch, the game CHUUUGS and they like... only half-supported 3D, which... y'know, would be one of the big selling points of switching over from much better animated sprite artwork to 3D Models. The pacing of the campaign is not great, and the Post-game is non-existent. The Mega Stone hunt is a DUMB side-quest that is hooked to your system clock, the Battle Maison is the same battle tower content regurgitation, and the looker stuff was weird. there's a bunch of loose ends in this game too, like the little tiki statue you get from the hotels and the dumb creepypasta thing that has no point other than to make you question it. I also really dislike that this generation in particular gives you dominantly powerful pokemon about 4 gyms into the game for free in the forms of the Mega Lucario and the Latios/as. The Steel Nerf infuriates me because while I know it's a move that was made specifically to make Aegislash not ridiculous (Spoiler Alert: Aegislash is still ridiculous), I feel that it buffed Ghost types in a way that they really did not need. I feel in their type chart tweaks that they needed to make one or two more major adjustments to really make things right; Flying and either Ghost or Water. as it stands, Gamefreak keeps trying to cram defensive Ice Types down our throat (Cryogonal, Regice, Walrien, Avalugg, Cloyster) and they all end up terrible because Ice has 4 weaknesses and 1 resist! I can think of maybe... 3 pokemon period that feel more enriched by being Ice pokemon, and even then, that comes with the caviat that they are all used more or less as glass cannons because Ice is such an AWFUL typing.



All of this isn't even getting into me getting into WTF WERE THEY THINKING arguments with arguing about Mega Evolution, Gale Wings, allowing BellyJet Azumarill to be a thing, and nitpicking other underutilized and half-baked mechanics that seem to have had little thought put into how they would effect things.

Also, Mega Rayquaza and the laziness of writing that went into things like the Delta Episode and Hoopa Unbound just dropping random legendary pokes into hoenn for the lulz.

Offline Oedo

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2016, 02:33:13 PM »
I can see where you're coming from on things like the depth of the post-game and hunting for Mega Stones being tied to the system clock. I wasn't aware of stuff like the drastically altered exp curve, nerfs to the Steel type, buffs to the Ghost type, or the fragility of Ice types though (at least not to the degree that you are). I know you've been pretty adamant about how disruptive you think Mega Evolutions are for the metagame and I'm in no position to necessarily disagree with any of that, but I really like Mega Evolutions simply because they're some of my favourite Pokemon designs. To my earlier point, I think things like this are where most our differences lie in how we feel about Pokemon X and Y.

I also liked A LOT more than just four of new Generation VI Pokemon designs and I loved the Kalos region for the most part, but I suppose that's really getting down to a matter of taste.

Offline rygar

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2016, 04:54:41 PM »
I just finished my playthrough of Alpha Sapphire yesterday morning. AS and X were my first Pokémon games so I have no other generation to compare them to. I enjoyed them both a lot and plan on getting Y and OR if they are $20 on digital at Christmas. So far I'm content playing them as just RPGs, so I'm definitely a casual fan, but still putting in a lot of hours. From that perspective, there are things I like better about both, and I think they complement each other well aesthetically.

I like the customization options possible through Pokémon Bank and post-game, so I'm in no rush to play through Moon. I just want to get it in time for the munchlax.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2016, 05:33:12 PM »
I hear you, Oedo. I realize that rant was... a little over the top, but something about gen 6 really soured me and it felt like a step back from what i feel were the best games in the series.

basically, the only other changes to the type chart that happened in X and Y besides the inmplications of introducing the fairy type and making that Poison and Steel weak, Steel lost it's resists to Dark and Ghost. Granted, Steel resists a laundry list of other types as is and fairy was added to this group of resists, and even without dark and ghost resists, it's one of the best defensive types.

Ghost now has dark that resists it in the wake of steel resist no longer being a thing, and the normal immunity. that's it.

the thing I was talking about with Ice defensively, is that Ice resists... Ice. it is weak to Fighting, Fire, Rock(!!!), and Steel. the problem with ice type is that it's fairly obvious that it was originally conceptualized as a compliment to water types to trade off some of their resists for a better offensive option, but as the game has evolved, Ice has easily been the most stagnant type. Sure, there are great ice moves and Gamefreak has VERY gradually given them support in the form of Hail (without getting into specifics, look forward to some more limp-wristed attempts to do this that I've heard about.), but it's just not good enough. most pokemon that are ice types are poorer for being ice type. unless you're wicked fast (Weavile) or hit like a truck and pack Ice Shard in your move pool (mamoswine), or you have some dumb gimmick (Cloyster, Walrien), being an Ice type is a bane and not a boon...

(also, the reason being weak to rock is devastating is because when you are weak to rock, you take a quarter of your max HP coming in on stealth rock instead of 1/8th. if you're x4 weak to Stealth Rocks, you take half coming in.)

Mega Evolutions... I feel restricted team building. a lot of them I actually like. they were targeted at pokemon who were popular, and my favorite megas were the ones tartgeted at pokemon that needed that little extra something to shine or the ones where you actually were giving up something when you mega evolve (Garchomp losing speed when it become Garchomp-M, Slowbro dropping an amazing ability in Regenerator to gain extra defenses.) and... quite a few megas pretty much lived or died on a gimmick, and some of those gimmicks would make for a stupidly busted pokemon. I mean, on one hand you are giving up your hold item slot, but it's usually the pokemon that are just made straight up better than any hold item could ahve provided that pokemon that ended up breaking the game like Salamence, Pinsir, Mawile, Lucario, Blaziken, Gengar, and... of course, Mega Kangaskhan, which they specifically released a Japanese Sun and Moon trailer to point out that they rebalanced because they messed up so badly in designing that singular pokemon.

The real sin though is that it took them exactly one game to break the one rule they established with Mega Evolution; that the mega evolving pokemon needs a hold item. although this doesn't really effect most of the main game, Mega Rayquaza doens't need a hld item. it gets the highest base stat total of any pokemon. All you need to mega evolve it is for it to know it's signature move, which is a flying type version of Close Combat, AKA the best fighting type move overall. Mega Rayquaza is a flying type without flying type weaknesses, but sure as heck still has flying type resistances and Same Type Attack Bonus. Mega Rayquaza hits like an ICBM weather it's using physical or special attack. Mega Rayquaza can use Life orb. Mega Rayquaza can use swords dance or dragon dance. Mega Rayquaza gets access to extreme speed, which is a normal type attack that hits hard, and outspeeds most other priority moves. it also happens to have pretty great defenses. and... let me reiterate; IT CAN HOLD A HOLD ITEM! ANY HOLD ITEM!

Mega Rayquaza is such a busted pokemon that the fine folk over at smogon university declared that for their self-imposed competitive balanced format that you cannot play Mega Rayquaza even in the banned tier, uber usage. no single pokemon can take two unresisted hits from mega rayquaza and live. the only reason it didn't dominate the VGC tournaments (and let's face it, it kinda did) was because Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre's attacks hit both of the opponent's pokemon stupidly hard instead of just one of them.



that's where i get to Z-moves. is is something that doesn't favor just a select few pokemon. There's probably going to be balance issues with folks ddoing Z-move explosion  given that the Z-move scales with the power of attacks (proven by the demo if you catch a pikachu in the catching mini game and give it your electrium Z Vs. the attacks that Kukui's Pikachu had), it probably means a lot of the use cases for Z-moves are either one-and dones to take out a single big threat on the opponent's team, or that there's (maybe) support moves like Extreme Evoboost that set up sweeps, which... passing stat boosts are already things the game has counters built in for, like whirlwind, Roar, and Haze. at the same time, it still gives effectively the same thing for the single player adventure of giving one of the pokemon on your team a chance to shine, even if it's normally not a super great pokemon.


Also, Rygar... did you enjoy that Greninja I sent your way? :3

Offline rygar

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2016, 06:48:07 PM »
To be honest, I've kept it pristine for when I eventually get into battling. You talked about how opponent selection affects stats, and I thought I might throw off the balance you created fighting random wild Pokémon. I wanted to save it for when I have time to figure that stuff out. I thought it was kind of like using a signed ball to shag flies, so it wasn't ingratitude that made me not use it.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2016, 08:29:06 PM »
oh! sorry. I actually maxed that out so fighting any further enemy pokemon won't effect it's growth from it's current trajectory. my bad!

Offline rygar

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2016, 03:45:58 AM »
Awesome, thanks, I'll give it a try this week.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2016, 07:43:13 AM »
Reviews are starting to come out today. while NWR's own is incomplete at the time of writing this forum post, I am looking forward to Mr. Kulafi's full thoughts. I think I may actually attempt to write a user review on Pokemon Moon after I've spent some time with it.

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2016, 01:48:36 PM »
Did you ever try the harder difficulty on BW and BW2, Lucario?
Skipped 5th gen didn't like the Pokemon.
Same here, except I came back to it while working on the Dex and Black and White are currently my favorite games in the series.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 10:36:40 PM by pokepal148 »
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Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2016, 02:56:13 PM »
Black and White are currently my favorite games in the series.


^^^^^^^

THIS
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 02:57:47 PM by ClexYoshi »

Offline rygar

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2016, 03:01:04 PM »
Did those concerned with the lower difficulty try the set (vs switch) battle setting? I was listening to a Pokémon centered podcast that suggested using that as the harder difficulty mode.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2016, 03:51:51 PM »
Oh, I always play with Set. getting free switches is a bad habit to fall into. in the end, if you REALLY want difficulty out of pokemon games, I really think folks should put time into the battle tower equivalent (Maison for Generation 6, Tree for Sun and Moon) given how extremely cheap those can go.

There's also folks who enjoy Nuzlocke challenges, which... I personally don't enjoy, but hey! go right ahead and invent self-imposed challenges for yourself! The thing about Pokemon and it's ease is that it doesn't have to be that way. I get that you're trying to design a game where you can have a near limitless ammount of party customization and you're trying to design an adventure that can carry a majority of that through without much hastle. as much as I loathe to make this comparison since it's become such a memerized thing, I'd say Dark Souls is similar in that fashion where the game has to be balanced for a number of variable fighting styles that could incorporate various magic, and a number of builds that vary wildly in effectiveness. the game has to be designed so that a boss or a section doesn't say... stonewall you for not having a ranged attack or for using a certain damage type that's not as effective. For Dark Souls, you still have to play smart and the game is still challenging and rewarding simply via merit of how the game and it's systems work. Simple things like tweaking trainer AI to switch when appropriate or employ some team synergy would go a long way in making that difficulty bump people so desire happen.

Offline rygar

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2016, 04:37:36 PM »
Improved AI would definitely make battles more interesting. I don't see how much more they could increase the core difficulty either without risking accessibility. You know more about this than I do, but I'd expect them to be hugely focused on the Chinese and South Asian markets over the next decade.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2016, 05:14:05 PM »
one of the first things they announced with sun and moon when it got revealed was that it will be the first pokemon game officially released in both Traditional Chinese and modern Chinese. I think they mentioned that the day they first teased the games and mentioned that the new games would have Pokemon bank support with the Virtual Console games.


I still have my fingers crossed for Glitch Mews being compatable with Pokemon Bank.

http://lparchive.org/Pokemon-Glitch-Exhibition/ By the way, this is a pretty amazing read if you wanna get the full potential out of your Virtual Console copies of pokemon. Using this guide, I have a game that's comfortably sitting at 0 badges, 51 Pokemon caught, and saved in saffron city, ready to get even more pokemon from various trainers.

Offline rygar

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2016, 01:50:26 PM »
Cool, thanks for the link.

I was also thinking about the opening shots of the Super Bowl commercial. There is just so much potential revenue to be tapped in mainland Asia. I'm surprised Pokémon Go hasn't launched in South Asia yet, but I haven't been following close enough to know if that's because of objections by the host governments, or a company decision.

Offline Evan_B

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2016, 03:20:36 PM »
On the almost-eve of Pokemon Sun and Moon, I think it's important to reflect on the series and consider some of the changes that have occurred, as I think it can help people identify what people like about the "phases" of transition that have taken place.

Red and Blue were experiments in establishing the formula. They featured a bit of exploratory freedom and held players back when it was important to do so. Gold and Silver refined this, adding welcome new mechanics like breeding, a day-night cycle, and a large post game with a climactic battle.

I want to lump Ruby and Sapphire into this, but the improvements in those games were an expansion atop the solid formula of GSC and felt superfluous in many ways. Running shoes were nice, but they should have simply been a standard travel speed instead. Double battles were new and added different strategies, but didn't change the way most trainers battled. Abilities and Natures were methods of diversifying Pokemon, but again- these added complexity only, with Natures hardly impacting the gameplay outside of hyper-competitive multiplayer. I'd argue one of the most important things this generation did was adding weather, but it was more of a switch that could be turned on and off. I'll also put Diamond and Pearl into this era, since it did even less, varying terrain for trainer traversal for the most part, aside from the very key physical/special split. What is so distinct about these games as a whole is that the box legendaries were meant to represent more and more ludicrous extremes in terms of power, and the plots- both in general terms as well as the plots of the villains- of these games centered around them. I call this the precious stone era for obvious reasons, and its highlights were more its remakes and third installments.

Black and White occupies its own section in the Pokemon timeline. Its increased "focus" on story and character, as well as the diversification of its character designs are a large turning point for the franchise. Its "soft reboot" in terms of Pokedex was important as well, and arguably the best part of the generation. But the mucking about with the experience formula and triple battles also made its enhancements the most convoluted yet, and I would argue that just because it took a risk with an increased story emphasis doesn't mean the story was any good. The issues I have with the region were largely addressed with its sequel, and the choice to have a story-based sequel shows how all-in they had gone with the idea.

That brings us to X and Y and Sun and Moon. In many ways, I see this next evolution as one of generational gimmicks- Mega Evolutions in X and Y, Z-Moves in Sun and Moon. There is now a heavier emphasis on story, but it's definitely more confined and not as ridiculous as Black and White. The format in how players traverse the region, and the regions themselves, have been more varied than ever, thanks to the improvements in graphics. While the gimmicks are another additional layer to combat, they are at least changing the way players choose their options within combat itself. I wonder if this gimmicky nature is going to be the standard for the series to come, or if there will be a drastic shift. With a series as iterative and long-lasting as Pokemon, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the latter.

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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2016, 05:51:45 PM »
Mega Evolution definitely has it's success stories (The Kanto starters in particular) but there are a lot of pokemon who got Mega Evolutions who could gave lived without. (Lucario and Salamence come to mind in particular.)

Also Mega Rayquaza is just hilarious.
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Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2016, 05:52:15 PM »
Evan, I have been doing a lot of reflecting on this franchise through this whole year.

For starters, I'd like to say I agree with quite a few little things, but i have to strongly disagree with your lumping together of Gen 3 and Gen 4.


For starters, Gen 3 brought in the current Effort system. under the old system, effort was just something you grinded out and maxed out, whereas it's a (admittedly opaque but profound) way of specializing your pokemon in conjunction with Natures. Generation 3 by and large gave you more reason than ever to have more than one of the same pokemon because it was possible to have such wildly varying pokemon. Double Battles are also the format unto which the Pokemon championships are conducted, and you'll find that the focus to pokemon better suited for competition in double battle is stark through the years. Also, weather was introduced in GS, but poekmon that took advantage of weather with abilities made structuring teams around them far more exploitable.

If NOTHING else, Generation 4 introduced the HUGE ability to internationally (and not be tethered to a Japanese mobile phone) trade and battle, which was a HUGE revelation for me. my whole entire view of Pokemon changed so drastically when I had the ability to play online. The Physical/Special split also was VERY important, as it allowed pokemon who used to be garbage offensively because of mismatched typing and stats to finally have cohesion like never before. Pokemon like Sharpedo, Kingler, Blaziken, Arcanine, Moltres, and Azumarill never made sense until the 4th generation. Gen 4 is also the first generation where ostensibly all the features introduced in the previous generation would carry over to the next one, which cannot be said for Gen 5, 6, and from what I've heard, 7.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 05:54:10 PM by ClexYoshi »

Offline Evan_B

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2016, 06:26:51 PM »
Ah, I completely forgot about Sandstorm and the like in GSC, my apologies. However, I would still argue that Gen 3 and 4 deserve each other because of how they transformed the metagame- the physical/special split is just as important a revelation as Effort Values, and online play increased the ability to experiment with teams. But many of the introduced mechanics in Gen 3 and 4 served to complicate the battle structure and gear it for a competitive audience- not a bad thing, mind you, but something to consider.

I know many people lament fewer amounts of new Pokemon being introduced in the past two generations, and honestly, I can't argue with them- but my counterpoint is that Game Freak has begun to become much more precise in designing Pokemon with very specific niche or gimmick, and when it works just right, as is the case with Aegislash, it creates a very unique addition that is rather inventive. What is more upsetting is Game Freak's reliance on tradition when it comes to generation tropes-early-route garbage normal types, the three-stage bug, a mediocre bird, etc. On the other hand, the lack of fossils this generation is certainly unwelcome. Should I spoiler that?
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Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2016, 07:58:23 PM »
you probably should spoiler that.


they shook that nonsense up a little bit with Diggersby and Talonflame being ridiculous. I also feel that the Generation 6 roster of pokemon deeply suffer from the emphasis on Megas.  There are great designs there, sure, but it's hard not to live in that mechanic's shadow.


The real shame with Sun and Moon that I feel right now is them not going NUTS on alolan formes. some animation aside, there's not a ton of modeling work to be done there. if you really wanted to work sun and moon as a device to sell those virtual console Gen 1 games as a companion, I would have went nuts and given a vast majority of the gen 1 pokemon that didn't get a mega or a Gen 2/ Gen 4 evolution an Alolan form. it would have served to pad out the pokemon quota out quite nicely without a huge ammount of tweaking done. Heck, given the Chinese leaks that came out and were mostly accurate claimed that at least at some point during development, Alolan Growlithe, Arcanine, Abra, Kadabra, Alakazam, Butterfree, Doduo, Dodrio, Nidoqueen, and Nidoking were all considered. actually, that was fake, but like... I feel like I would have loved those had they been among our final cast of alolan pokemon.

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Re: Pokémon Sun and Moon
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2016, 09:40:55 PM »
I'm a couple hours in and really enjoying it. It's the first time a game in this series has really grabbed me in a long time, honestly probably since HeartGold/SoulSilver. My favorite thing is a really minor but really overdue tweak, when you catch a Pokémon with 6 already in your party it gives you the option to keep that one and send one of the ones you already had to the PC instead. That is really handy early in the game.
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