Topic: The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds

[Adrock]

I was for going to post this in "What are you playing?" thread, but it was getting lengthy so I decided to start a new thread.

I made some significant progression this weekend. I have two more Sages to free then Lorule castle. There's also the optional Treacherous Tower (it's this game's Cave of Ordeals). I bought all the weapons and upgraded them. The Maimai hunt was surprisingly not awful. Finding a golden bee was totally impossible so I ended up just buying it to give to the dude then I found out that the prize was silliness. I have so many rupees that it didn't matter. One bottle cost 3000 rupees. I originally thought the whole rent then buy items thing might be annoying, but it wasn't. I never had to farm for money. It's nice that you actually use Rupees in this game. Most Zelda games, I barely used them at all.

Calling this a sequel to A Link to the Past is both a mostly incorrect description and an insult to A Link Between Worlds itself. Besides some familiar screens played up by Nintendo in trailers, it isn't really like its so-called predecessor at all. A Link Between Worlds holds its own pretty well as a Zelda title that it doesn't to stand on a Link to the Past's shoulders. In fact, I think Nintendo's insistence on connecting the game to A Link to the Past hurt the game initially. I went in with certain expectations and the beginning does try to adhere to A Link to the Past. Once A Link Between Worlds breaks free from its faux direct sequel bonds, it becomes a much stronger experience. It's a really fun game that starts off very slowly, but picks up immensely once you get to Lorule. The second half of the Theives' Hideout dungeon was especially enjoyable. The turning-into-a-painting mechanic is something I didn't think I'd enjoy as much as I actually did. It adds a lot to the game and there are some pretty clever puzzles.

Like I said in a previous post, the game is directionless, but that's only a problem in the beginning. Once you have all the items and can do anything and go anywhere, it becomes really fun to just explore the world. This happens much earlier than in other Zelda games. In Lorule, you have to do two dungeons in order, one of the items has to be returned to Ravio. Otherwise, you have free reign to go nuts. Speaking of Ravio, he has to be Lorule's Link. That's just my guess. He just happens to have a bracelet that protects you and allows you to turn into a painting. Convenient. Then, Princess Hilda specifically mentions that Lorule has no hero like Link. Instead, they have this weirdo who randomly takes over your house and sells you all the items needed to finish your quest. That sounds like the opposite of Link to me. The only thing that would make that more obvious is if there was a scene of Ravio gluing broken pots back together.

Anyway, the remixed music is great and I'll have to check youtube for the dungeon tracks because a few of then were quite excellent. I just don't remember which dungeon had which track.

I still don't like the art style though that only registers when I stop to think about it. The game got so engrossing in Lorule that I didn't notice it for long periods.

The plot is pretty weak. No surprises there. It also skips a lot of exposition. Many of the Sages are turned into paintings off-screen. I didn't realize they were Sages until I rescued them. I suppose it doesn't matter in a Zelda game that treats plot as an afterthought, but it's still poor storytelling.

I tried the Streetpass battle. Meh... I'm borrowing this game from a friend, but I won't miss the Streetpassing stuff much.

So far, it's a strong game that I got to play for free. It's probably my favorite handheld Zelda since Link's Awakening. I'll update when I finish the game.

[Adrock]

Finished this last night.

SPOILERS AFTER THIS POINT (I'm too lazy to use tags for each instance)




The "last" dungeon (Ice Ruins) was particularly strong. I thought it was going to be annoyingly slippery the whole time like ice stages typically are. I'm glad only a few parts were. The puzzles were pretty cool, notably how you move a large section of the floor around the stage.

Lorule castle wasn't that great. It's strange how Nintendo tends to fail the end game sections of Zelda games. I was right about Ravio, but I was a bit surprised by the first plot twist that Hilda was behind everything the entire time. It had a Fringe vibe to it with Hilda willing to destroy another world to save her own. The second plot twist was weak. Of course, Yuga would turn on Hilda. From a storytelling standpoint, I would have preferred if Hilda turned on Yuga and ended up being the real final boss, but that's typically not how Nintendo does things. Same with the ending which very clean as most Zelda endings are. Hilda's sudden change of heart is typical sophomoric Nintendo characterization. It's too quick and usually makes no sense contextually.

The final boss was still pretty cool. It wasn't difficult except I had to use a fairy because I didn't think to shoot an arrow behind me to finally finish Yuga off.

In terms of the series as a whole, A Link Between Worlds did answer something I was curious about. I always wondered what would happen if there was no Triforce, whether it was destroyed or wished into non-existence. It seemed like the source of a lot of problems so without it no one could seize its power. That's great and all until the fabric of reality is ripped apart and the world collapses. Nice to know.

Overall, a good game. It was much better than I expected.

[Caterkiller]

I only just made it to Lorule and that was back during Christmas. With Pokemon constantly nagging me and the urge to finish a bunch of other games I decided to put it on hold. But you've got me excited to play again!

[Ceric]

What order did you go through the game Adrock?  We found on NFR when we talked about it that All three of us went through the game in totally different orders which changed are opinion of the games.  Austen found to easy but the first dungeon he did was the one with the Damage Reduction.  I found the game harder but that was the next to last dungeon I did.  Donald found t to be closer to the easier side but 100% it.

[Adrock]

But you've got me excited to play again!

I'm glad. The game picks up considerably in Lorule.

What order did you go through the game Adrock?

I think I did the the fifth dungeon (or whichever portrait corresponds to Dark Palace) first for no other reason than I didn't know which one to start at. Second, I completed Turtle Rock, again just because. After that, I looked up how to get the Titan's Mitt because those large rocks were making exploring annoying. So I completed Thieves' Hideout next to get the Sand Rod then Desert Palace. Next, I went to Skulls Woods just so I could find the save rooster to warp to and cheat through that one heart piece where you have to race to the dude's brother on the other side of Hyrule. Then, I completed Swamp Palace and finally, Ice Ruins because I figured that was meant to be last.

My order was terribly inefficient. If I were to play through the game again, my order would probably be: Thieves' Hideout, Desert Palace, Swamp Palace, Turtle Rock, Skull Woods, Dark Palace, and Ice Ruins. That way I'd get the Titan's Mitt as soon as possible then the Blue Mail, then Hylian Shield (though I could stand to switch those). After Desert Palace, I'd probably head over to Lorule's graveyard to get another Master Ore so I could have the level two sword fairly early. The Stamina Scroll was the least useful bonus treasure for me, as I rarely found myself in a position where I was using too much stamina. For that reason, I'd be fine taking on Ice Ruins last again. Also, just getting to that dungeon is one of the more frustrating parts of the game.

[Mop it up]

I'm a little surprised that this topic didn't already exist...

I find it interesting how you feel that the game is vastly different from LttP. Myself, I think pretty much the opposite. The game was a little too familiar for me, because I already knew so much about it from playing LttP. I already knew how all the mechanics worked, I already knew how to fight nearly all the enemies, I already knew the world map and made pretty good guesses where all the secrets were... There was very little sense of discovery for me.

The tool rental system adds to this as well. It means that I knew all I'd find out in the world and dungeons was rupees. I like the idea of being able to go anywhere a la Zelda 1, but I think the answer would be something more along the lines of not requiring items to traverse the world map instead of just handing Link every item in the game.

For me, the dungeons are the only good part of this game. And they are really good, some of the best dungeon design in the series. They made putting up with the rest worthwhile. Only thing I could think of in terms of dungeons is that I think there should still be an intended order (again, like Zelda 1), but you can do most of them in any order. I didn't feel like the dungeons had a difficulty curve, and with one or two exceptions, they felt like they were all about equal in difficulty. Which meant that the game got easier and easier as I went on. I know that's typically how a Zelda game goes when you get more hearts, but it became like, a total cakewalk.

I really like a lot of the ideas behind this game, but I feel it wasn't executed well. I would like to see these ideas tweaked and expanded upon in the Wii U Zelda title, though. There's good stuff here, it just needs to be a new game instead of built from an old one.

(Slight ending spoilers below)

Another thing about Ravio is that he's dressed as a bunny. A clear nod to Link to the Past and what happens if Link enters the Dark World with no Moon Pearl. This one was more clever, but still, it makes it somewhat easy to figure him out. I would actually like to see some New Super Luigi-style DLC that starred Ravio, and it would focus on his quest in Lorule to collect all the items he sells to Link, then find his way to Hyrule. The DLC would take place entirely in Lorule, and the world map would be the same, but it would have new dungeons in the places of the existing ones. I think that'd be pretty cool.

[Luigi Dude]

I really like a lot of the ideas behind this game, but I feel it wasn't executed well. I would like to see these ideas tweaked and expanded upon in the Wii U Zelda title, though. There's good stuff here, it just needs to be a new game instead of built from an old one.

Well Aonuma has said that they want to make the series in general more non-linear which LBW did so I think it's safe to say Zelda Wii U will continue what LBW has started.  It also helps that the game has gotten great reviews and sales so there's nothing to make Nintendo rethink that decision either.

[Adrock]

I find it interesting how you feel that the game is vastly different from LttP. Myself, I think pretty much the opposite. The game was a little too familiar for me, because I already knew so much about it from playing LttP. I already knew how all the mechanics worked, I already knew how to fight nearly all the enemies, I already knew the world map and made pretty good guesses where all the secrets were... There was very little sense of discovery for me.

As previously mentioned, there are familiar screens that are lifted directly from A Link to the Past. Additionally, the locations of the dungeons were largely the same. However, the surrounding areas were different, especially in Lorule (which makes sense since Lorule isn't the Dark World). The way Link moved and how items were used felt different too (particularly the sword). Still, the familiar parts were where A Link Between Worlds faltered because it was at its best when it strayed from A Link to the Past. It just didn't need to be any part of a previous game.

For me, the dungeons are the only good part of this game. And they are really good, some of the best dungeon design in the series. They made putting up with the rest worthwhile. Only thing I could think of in terms of dungeons is that I think there should still be an intended order (again, like Zelda 1), but you can do most of them in any order. I didn't feel like the dungeons had a difficulty curve, and with one or two exceptions, they felt like they were all about equal in difficulty. Which meant that the game got easier and easier as I went on. I know that's typically how a Zelda game goes when you get more hearts, but it became like, a total cakewalk.

I felt the dungeons were quite excellent with clever puzzles though, I agree, they were mostly equal in difficulty (at least in Lorule). I typically judge a Zelda game on its dungeons and this is where A Link Between Worlds really sets itself apart. There is no next to no familiarity with A Link to the Past inside the actual dungeons.

I really like a lot of the ideas behind this game, but I feel it wasn't executed well. I would like to see these ideas tweaked and expanded upon in the Wii U Zelda title, though. There's good stuff here, it just needs to be a new game instead of built from an old one.

Definitely. I'm still holding out for a land equivalent of Wind Waker that doesn't cheat its way out of having a real overworld with magical train tracks and control primarily through touchscreen. Nintendo could always expand on the Wind Waker HD engine to get us a new Zelda sooner while also working on a brand new "realistic" Zelda down the line. Maybe we can see a teenage Link around 13 or 14 years old, if only to give him a slightly different look.

Another thing about Ravio is that he's dressed as a bunny. A clear nod to Link to the Past and what happens if Link enters the Dark World with no Moon Pearl. This one was more clever, but still, it makes it somewhat easy to figure him out. I would actually like to see some New Super Luigi-style DLC that starred Ravio, and it would focus on his quest in Lorule to collect all the items he sells to Link, then find his way to Hyrule. The DLC would take place entirely in Lorule, and the world map would be the same, but it would have new dungeons in the places of the existing ones. I think that'd be pretty cool.

That's an interesting idea. I'm curious how Nintendo would do this. Maybe Ravio could start with a few of them and the others are in parts of Lorule that collapsed into those fissures all over Lorule, conveniently explaining why Link couldn't visit those areas. Also, Ravio's whole deal is that he lacks courage. There's art in the game of him using the items, but would he actually use them when in real danger? The developers could play with that aspect.

[Mop it up]

There is next to no familiarity with A Link to the Past inside the actual dungeons.

It didn't feel that way to me. It used many of the same elements from LttP dungeons, including those orange and blue blockers and switches, and it has some other things like the bumpers. They also contained a lot of the same enemies and bosses, most of which have the same patterns as LttP. Aside from the wall-merging mechanic which was well done, I didn't feel like I had to learn or relearn anything about the puzzles elements or enemies. I already knew it.

I view this game like the NSMB series, which also use a lot of the same elements in different ways. It's LttP so it's still enjoyable, just not all it could be.

Also, Ravio's whole deal is that he lacks courage. There's art in the game of him using the items, but would he actually use them when in real danger? The developers could play with that aspect.

Hm, that's true. The gameplay would probably have to be a bit different than the main game, and focus more on stealth. Not the lame kind of stealth where you have to sneak around everywhere and you get chucked out of the place and have to start all over if you get seen. Rather, I mean that Ravio would have to use the wall-merging from the bracelet, as well as the other tools, to sneak up on enemies to dispatch them, since he's weak and can't take them head on. So I guess it would be similar to the Hero Mode, where Ravio takes heavy damage if he gets hit. I think that could be interesting.

[Nile Boogie Returns]

Why is Majora's Mask in the game? I can't figure that out. Is there a super secret area I should go to? Is Lorule New Termina?