Topic: Disney & Sony make up!! Spider-Man back in the MCU!!!.... For now.

[broodwars]

i.e.: "Not Disney".

For all the crying and lamenting over storytelling and expression in media, it really just boils down to "I am edgy because I hate dose mieces to pieces."

No, not "hatred". If I hated Disney, this would be easy. No, I love Disney. I've always loved Disney, but Disney's always been at their worst when they're dominating the market, whether it be the mid-to-late 90s or now. When Disney dominates and no one really challenges them, they get complacent and lazy. The Disney Renaissance didn't start until Don Bluth defected; formed his own studio; and thoroughly defeated Disney at the box office. Disney didn't really start experimenting and innovating their theme park attractions until Universal started putting up a decent fight.

Someone NEEDS to challenge them to keep them innovating and experimenting. Sony is...not that company, but since WB is sitting in the corner in a glorified "time out" at the moment, they're all that is.

And it's not like the companies that Sony owns CAN'T tell a Spider-Man story as good as (if not better then) Marvel, when Sony corporate doesn't try to shove in 6 films' worth of setup into one. Into the Spiderverse is phenomenal, and the Insomniac Spider-Man PS4 game has a fantastic story that's extremely well-told. And, incidentally, Sony just bought Insomniac so they could pull that game's story out for their films any time they wanted.

[UncleBob]

Before Broodwars posts a link, Stan Lee's daughter has weighed in on the Spiderman situation, throwing Disney under the bus: https://www.cnet.com/news/stan-lees-daughter-speaks-out-against-marveldisney-in-spidey-spat/

Can't say I care much for her opinion on the subject.  Anyone who's going to literally physically abuse an old man over his money isn't someone we should give spotlight to.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/stan-lee-would-like-to-set-the-record-straight-will-anyone-let-him

[ThePerm]

A funny thing is.... looking through some OLD news articles. Sony may only have film rights to Spider-man. Marvel might have the Television rights.  It looks like at some point Sony could make Television shows. But the last 2 series were made in house without Sony's involvement. So the Spider-man tv series Sony wanted to make... They might not be able to make it. Marvel made the Ultimate Spider-man and the Spider-man 2017 tv series.

So Tom Holland could just re-appear on Disney+ but not in Marvel movies. There might be a big reason for the upcoming shift to TV shows.

Also, there was a video a few months back explaining about how there may also be some logic to why every character in home-coming is dramatically different then their comic counterpart.  Ned is nice and his best friend, no word from Harry, MJ is not Mary Jane, He has a Stark Suit, Aunt May is Hot, Mysterio is a Stark Employee not a film worker. Some of the logic of the variation is that these differences make the characters differentiated from Sony versions.

Tom Holland probably has to do the next Sony movie though because of his contract. But they may just drop him in favor of a replacement.

As far as anyone proving that Spider-man is better in a MCU universe just look at Spider-man 3, Amazing Spider-man 2, and Venom. Most Spider-man movies are good under Sony. There has just been this cycle of: find a good director who loves the character, and then devolve into a studio notes movie. The first 2 Spider-man movies were good. Spider-man 3 you could see the cracks. Sam-Raimi could have done a great movie that revolved around Sand-man with New-Goblin as a secondary foe. But the studio had to shoehorn Venom in. Had there been a 4th movie that focused on Venom that could have been better.  Or even a 5th movie. I've heard rumors Raimi wanted to do Vulture for 4 with John Malkovich though. Raimi took his time with the part 4 production and they had to fire him because they had a timeline otherwise they would lose the rights. They tapped Marc Webb to make Amazing Spider-man. There was some weirdness. They went Darker with Amazing Spider-man, but overall it was a good movie. The biggest complaint was the re-tread on the Origin story. Still with Lizard in the Mix it was pretty good. Amazing Spider-man 2 was hot garbage. His suit looked great, but it was an entirely incoherent movie. They tried to do Electro, Rhino,and Green Goblin at the same time. It had a completely muddled storyline. It was a stark difference from the previous movie that had characters that seemed connected. Venom was both bad, but not that bad. I liked how it had allusions to the movie Life without having a real canonical connection. I really wish they had gone all out with that aspect. I didn't like how the Symbiote was unconnected to Spider-man, but overall I was entertained. I was able to enjoy the movie for what it was even if it wasn't a Spider-man movie.

[broodwars]

A funny thing is.... looking through some OLD news articles. Sony may only have film rights to Spider-man. Marvel might have the Television rights.  It looks like at some point Sony could make Television shows. But the last 2 series were made in house without Sony's involvement. So the Spider-man tv series Sony wanted to make... They might not be able to make it. Marvel made the Ultimate Spider-man and the Spider-man 2017 tv series.

Funny you should bring up the animated series, considering Ultimate Spider-Man AND Spider-Man 2017 are both godawful (as are just about everything else Marvel animated Disney's done). In fact, Ultimate Spider-Man was a soulless cash grab chucked out to the door after Disney killed off Sony's Spectacular Spider-Man, which is one of the best animated series ever made.

Like I said, Sony can do good when Sony knows well enough to leave the projects to their creative teams.

[ThePerm]

A funny thing is.... looking through some OLD news articles. Sony may only have film rights to Spider-man. Marvel might have the Television rights.  It looks like at some point Sony could make Television shows. But the last 2 series were made in house without Sony's involvement. So the Spider-man tv series Sony wanted to make... They might not be able to make it. Marvel made the Ultimate Spider-man and the Spider-man 2017 tv series.

Funny you should bring up the animated series, considering Ultimate Spider-Man AND Spider-Man 2017 are both godawful (as are just about everything else Marvel animated Disney's done). In fact, Ultimate Spider-Man was a soulless cash grab chucked out to the door after Disney killed off Sony's Spectacular Spider-Man, which is one of the best animated series ever made.

Like I said, Sony can do good when Sony knows well enough to leave the projects to their creative teams.

That might be the case. Ultimately, I'd prefer these characters to be public domain(because of Disney's mouse and Stan's long lifetime). But that won't happen ever. At least not in my lifetime. Though I imagine things are going to get weird in the future of entertainment. Fan films are going to a new level and I imagine any competitive corporation will allow it as long as they get their 95% cut.

[broodwars]

Actually, you know what? If I'm Sony, that would be part of my counter-offer to Disney's wish for increased an revenue split on the Spidey MCU films: in exchange, open up streaming & television animated projects for Sony in the Marvel world. Considering Spectacular Spider-Man (and the animated universe it was part of with Avengers: EMH and Wolverine & the X-Men), they're (ironically) CLEARLY better at animated TV Marvel projects than Disney is. Split the revenue, of course, but Sony could do a lot of good working in "television" Marvel animation again.

[ThePerm]

I think studios need to get on bored with multiple parallel runs of IP. I hate the idea that a studio believes "there can't be 2 of this character because it will confuse fans" they should stop catering to idiots.

[Adrock]

By doing more than they are right now in this specific situation, where they are just sitting in the back like Doc Ock sipping tea as their army of bots and sycophants spam twitter with "SAVESPIDEYFROMSONY" hashtags to pin the blame for all this on Sony

Who says Disney isn’t? Are you privy to closed doors meetings?

I want them to prove that this universe will function just fine without the biggest remaining recognizable character left in it. I want them to prove that the MCU is more than just a collection of poor-to-spectacularly average movies kept aloft by money; sheer quantity; and fanservice. I want them to show that their Sony-less MCU has such a future that Sony has no bargaining power left.

The MCU never needed Spider-Man. It was doing just fine without the character, but Sony sure as hell proved it needed Marvel to make a decent live-action Spider-Man movie this side of 2004. Ultimately, you already don’t like these movies which is fine, but you’re clearly an edge case. Catering specifically to people who don’t like these movies is a colossal waste of Marvel’s and by extension, Disney’s time.

Like I said, Sony can do good when Sony knows well enough to leave the projects to their creative teams.

Sure, if you believe Sony knows well enough. I don’t have any confidence in that because *broadly gestures at the Sony email leak*

Disney, however, has left its creative teams alone. Repeatedly. I’d rather Disney/Marvel have Spider-Man from a creative standpoint because I sure as hell don’t fucking care which billion dollar company makes more money.

[ThePerm]

Ultimately I want to see some Wolverine/Hulk/Spider-man Crossover.

apparently Jon Watts is not locked down for Spider-man: Homewrecker.

[Adrock]

Dammit, Homewrecker was going to be my next fake Spider-Man subtitle.

[broodwars]

Dammit, Homewrecker was going to be my next fake Spider-Man subtitle.

My bet is on "Homeward Bound: The Spectacular Journey."

[BlackNMild2k1]

Marvel/Disney had 100% of the merch rights well before the current deal, having bought them back from Sony in 2011 when Sony was in dire straights due to their, at the time, failing Electronics division.

Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying the merchandise was part of the deal, just stating everything Disney has related to Spidey during this arrangement.
And I think I left TV Rights out of the mix on accident, even though I mentioned it in the post.

[UncleBob]

*edit* nevermind...

[broodwars]

New Spider-Man Deal Rumored To Include 7 movies, Avengers, More

https://cosmicbook.news/spider-man-deal-7-movies-avengers

OK, lots to parse in here. There's some good stuff in here, like Sony being given access to do Live Action TV stuff for Spider-verse, and I'm pretty OK with a 2nd trilogy featuring Spidey's college years. A 30/70 revenue split in favor of Sony would be acceptable if I were in their place, considering the obvious strain on Marvel's part.

I find this part somewhat troublesome:

"If Sony was purchased by another company (like Apple), the Spider-Man film rights would go back to Disney, which Disney would love."

Considering Jobs had a nice share of Disney via his Pixar shares, that's somewhat disconcerting.

I REALLY don't want Disney anywhere NEAR Spider-verse, though.

Overall, if I'm Sony I probably say "yes" to this deal, if the deal is real. This is probably as good as they're going to get with the way things currently stand.

[Adrock]

I get Disney wanting more for use of their resources, but I can just tell this is about more than Feige and Marvel Studios time and resources, this is about the long game streaming rights to the actual movies being made.

Sony would distribute, but Disney will acquire exclusive digital and online rights for Disney Plus and affiliated TV networks

What is this scorcery?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Sony made the right choice to walk away if Disney was proposing a 50/50 split on the movie after their current deal. 

If you take a look at the worldwide box office for ALL the Spider-Man movies half of what Far From Home made is less money for Sony than any other live-action Spider-Man film by a minimum of 200 MILLION. 

Well... ASM2 made how much money at the Box office and Sony BARELY made a profit on that.
the profit was so razor thin for the amount of money made, they were happy to accept a deal with Marvel, who not only created a better film, but did it on a reasonable budget.

You gotta remember that the production budget shown for the movie doesn't include marketing and promotions. Sony was always waaay over budget and and spending too much on advertising that regardless of making around $800M on a Spidey movie, they didnt' make a real profit.

The other thing to remember, is that the Box Office payback isn't literally the money reported.
Studios get roughly 50% in the US, 35/40% Overseas, and around 25% in China.
A movie with a $200M production budget, and a $130M advertising budget that made $800M WW in the Box Office didn't necessarily bring them $400M back for a profit of $70M
it's more likely that it only brought them back $300M for a $30M loss... then you subtract tax credits and co sponsored advertising (+some other misc Hollywood Accounting methods) and you might squeak out a small profit.
 

New Spider-Man Deal Rumored To Include 7 movies, Avengers, More

https://cosmicbook.news/spider-man-deal-7-movies-avengers

How legit is this source, because that deal sounds AWESOME!!!
we get a bunch more Holland Spidey in the MCU, some Spider-Verse to maybe cross-over with some "What-If" D+ series, and as I mentioned before DISNEY GETS IT'S STREAMING RIGHTS.

[UncleBob]

>How legit is this source, because that deal sounds AWESOME!!!

I have no idea.  It came up in a seperate search I was running.

[BlackNMild2k1]

>How legit is this source, because that deal sounds AWESOME!!!

I have no idea.  It came up in a seperate search I was running.

and for the record, by AWESOME, I meant, too good to be true.

I'll have to hear it from a reputable source, unless someone can vouch for this "source".

edit: and here is an insightful article from June 2017: How Sony lost Spider-Man
https://www.mtrnetwork.net/sony-lost-spider-man/

edit 2: another interesting article that states Marvel paying Sony a $30M yearly royalty that's tied to the SM movies performances
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/spider-man-standoff-why-sony-thinks-it-doesnt-need-kevins-playbook-anymore-1233644?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Direct

[ThePerm]

Also let's all remember Tom Rothman was in charge of this when he was over at Fox:



https://geektyrant.com/news/deadpool-creator-rob-liefeld-calls-out-former-fox-executive-tom-rothman-for-keeping-the-movie-grounded-for-so-long

[BlackNMild2k1]

How about this article on Rothman:
https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sony-executives-disillusioned-tom-rothman-1201904528/

of course if you circle back to the 2017 article I posted earlier.... maybe this is all part of a grander plan!? Disney setting up Sony to fail and get the Spider-man franchise back.... or possibly to just by Sony Pictures outright?

[ThePerm]

I had to look up obstreperous, but I was mostly correct on its meaning.

reading that article makes me think Rothman wrote that press release from yesterday.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Here's one more with some interesting details:
https://variety.com/2019/film/news/spider-man-sony-marvel-divorce-1203311351/

Sony had been in negotiations to keep Feige in the fold as a consulting producer, but Disney — who just this year swallowed 20th Century Fox and all of its Marvel characters with it — left the table after Sony refused to increase its share of the profits. Some reports said that Disney was looking to essentially become a 50/50 partner in the series. Another insider close to the deal said negotiations came up for renewal as long as six months ago, and Sony did not move to act on a new pact. Others with knowledge of the deal disputed this, saying Disney made it clear it was no longer interested in partnering. The finger-pointing has been dizzying.

Several insiders said Sony Pictures chief Tom Rothman was willing to give up as much as roughly 25% of the franchise and welcome Disney in as a co-financing partner in exchange for Feige’s services.

I wonder if that 25% part is true....
better to get a foot in the door, (and keep feeding me my MCU Spider-Man) than to walk away and watch Sony burn it all to the ground (slowly, and painfully).

[lolmonade]

I'd love to peer into an alternate universe where Disney bought the Spider-Man rights so many years ago and Marvel remained independent.  Could you imagine all the hate Disney would be getting for "holding Spider-Man hostage"?

Frankly, business or ethics wise, neither company is worth rooting for (story/character wise, Marvel obviously wins), but it's funny to see the anti-Disney crowd latching onto this so vehemently pro-other billion dollar corporation just because they're "not Disney".

I used the words "rooting for" glibly because of exactly what you said.  That said, if Disney hadn't fought to keep altering copyright law, they could have both made their own Spider-Man movies.

I don't have a passionate take on the subject just because I've fallen off the MCU train after Endgame and I've always been at most a casual fan of Comic Book characters.  BUT purely from a business sense, Disney played their hand wrong and assumed they had leverage when they've actually lost leverage due to how central they made Spider-Man's inclusion into the MCU. 

Purely speaking business, it's asinine anyone would be angry at anyone but Disney for being overly greedy about what they expect for collaboration with Sony.

[UncleBob]

Ignore the link I posted earlier.  Appears that site is total trashballs.

[Shorty McNostril]

https://www.superherohype.com/movies/463659-tom-holland-and-kevin-feige-address-spider-mans-mcu-exit

Seems pretty definite at this stage based on Holland and Feige.