Topic: RetroActive #6 Game Discussion: Zelda II - The Adventure of Link

[gojira]

I'm on the final temple now.  And thank god when you die you continue from the beginning of the temple.  It took me a life and a half just getting there.  I've only played a bit of the level, but I was totally surprised to see a bunch of new enemies.  Giant slime thing?  WTF? 

When I read some of the posts about leveling up I was a bit put off.  But I got to the last temple fully leveled without really grinding.  Sure I did a little grinding to avoid losing my exp before losing my final life, but it was nowhere near Dragon Warrior grinding.  Also I remember the bosses being hard, but I didn't have much trouble this time. 

[Mop it up]

The final temple in this game is epic. It presents more challenge than you might be expecting, and the music is excellent. I always get it stuck in my head afterward.

When you get one of the extra life pickups hidden on the overworld, it will be gone for the rest of the game. I always leave them there and grab them all before taking the final trek to the Great Temple.

I agree that there really isn't much level grinding in the game, so long as you manage your experience points well. You have to make the temple level up worth it or else you'll have to make up for it by grinding; one way to do this is strategic use of the "cancel" feature. You also shouldn't avoid enemies, especially high-point value ones. And save that last 8,000-point level for beating the temple before the final one.

Most of the bosses are only difficult before you learn their attack patterns. After you figure out what they do and get into a rhythm of striking them, they are fairly easy. The only boss who gives me trouble is the very final enemy. After all these years I still haven't figured out what you're supposed to do, I just jump around striking randomly and hope for the best.

[Sundoulos]

Most of the bosses are only difficult before you learn their attack patterns. After you figure out what they do and get into a rhythm of striking them, they are fairly easy. The only boss who gives me trouble is the very final enemy. After all these years I still haven't figured out what you're supposed to do, I just jump around striking randomly and hope for the best.

There are a couple of ways to beat him consistently. 

The cheap and really easy way is to crouch in the left corner of the screen and do a crouching stab as Shadow Link approaches.  The way I normally used to do it was to jump and do a normal stab just as I reached his head, just above the shield.  If you time your strike correctly, he can't really block it.  Actually, I always used the same strategy on the Ironknuckles as well.

[NWR_DrewMG]

I just wrote up a blog post about this game, since I'm in the middle of a franchise re-play.  Here it is, if you'd like to read it.

http://community.livejournal.com/gameoftheyear/5650.html

[yoshi1001]

I've actually played this game several times on the GameCube Zelda compilation disk. A year and a half ago, I did a video review which you can see here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RHBNhWIf6A

The basic problem with the leveling mechanic is that after the major gains that come with the first few levels, the later boosts become less than useful. As a result, the hardest parts are the beginning of the game, where you're not very powerful and extremely vulnerable, and the end of the game, where your levels don't improve enough to match the sharply increasing difficulty. It would have been nice if the levels went up to 10 or 12 instead of 8 to bring things back in line (or if enemies would occasionally drop hearts instead of just magic jars and point bags).

There are other problems with the game as well-namely the lack of interesting dungeon items (of the six from temples, three are map items, and two are just visibility items), and the fact that jumping off a cliff usually results in the loss of a life (rather than losing a heart as in later Zelda games) but occasionally is needed to progress in dungeons is inconsistent and frustrating. The game also feels sparse-no money, no shops, just experience points.  Still, the game is fine as an occasional play, so I guess the "black sheep" of the Zelda family is still better than the "sheep dung" on the CD-i.

[gojira]

Worst experience so far: I was one point away from leveling up and on my last life.  I see two slime things.  I sell out to take down one slime knowing that the second would kill me, but only after getting my level up.  Only problem...  first slime drops a bottle.

Best experience so far: Giant Slime in the final temple?!?!?

[adadad]

I just wrote up a blog post about this game, since I'm in the middle of a franchise re-play.  Here it is, if you'd like to read it.

http://community.livejournal.com/gameoftheyear/5650.html

Good article, I agree with your assessment. Swordfighting is the best aspect of the game and the overworld is primarily padding.

Towns were always baffling. Just plain freaky places, some villagers turning into bats before your eyes out to kill you whilst two doors down the street a lady of the night (practicing in broad daylight!) is always willing to service Link! Lot more exciting than the bumpkin-riffic village of Ordon from Twilight Princess.

[gojira]

Finished the game, woot!  Zelda will not sleep forever! 

[Flames_of_chaos]

To me Zelda II has been the black sheep of the franchise, my guess was  Miyamoto and his team were trying to figure out how to progress the series so they used Zelda II as the experiment and see which Zelda formula would be used in the later games. While it is my least favorite in the series that I have played (I will never attempt to play the CD-i monstrosities), it's still enjoyable in it's own merits and is far from a bad game.

[TJ Spyke]

(I will never attempt to play the CD-i monstrosities)

I think it would be best if we do what Nintendo does and just pretend the CD-i games never existed.

[Flames_of_chaos]

I think Phillips would rather pretend that it didn't exist since it probably bombed hard.

[Mop it up]

There are a couple of ways to beat him consistently. 

The cheap and really easy way is to crouch in the left corner of the screen and do a crouching stab as Shadow Link approaches.  The way I normally used to do it was to jump and do a normal stab just as I reached his head, just above the shield.  If you time your strike correctly, he can't really block it.  Actually, I always used the same strategy on the Ironknuckles as well.

I've tried both of those strategies and can't seem to get them to work. I think it is cheating to do that on the IronKnuckles but I still use it on the blue ones because they are exasperating.

Best experience so far: Giant Slime in the final temple?!?!?

Ha ha, yeah, that is awesome. You're just walking along minding your own business, then all of a sudden a giant slime comes out of nowhere and falls on your head.

This post looks like a Government document...

[Jonnyboy117]

I'm starting to feel that this may be one of the best action games on NES. By the third temple, I started to get into a groove with the rhythm and feel of combat and platforming. (Also, the game is more fun once you have down-strike.)

[Flames_of_chaos]

I'm starting to feel that this may be one of the best action games on NES. By the third temple, I started to get into a groove with the rhythm and feel of combat and platforming. (Also, the game is more fun once you have down-strike.)

I personally wouldn't go that far and say that it's one of the best NES action games. To me it felt like there was something missing in Zelda II and I really can't put my finger on it.

[Nick DiMola]

I'm starting to feel that this may be one of the best action games on NES. By the third temple, I started to get into a groove with the rhythm and feel of combat and platforming. (Also, the game is more fun once you have down-strike.)

I personally wouldn't go that far and say that it's one of the best NES action games. To me it felt like there was something missing in Zelda II and I really can't put my finger on it.

Fun?

[Caliban]

What's missing in Zelda II is definitely boredom.

[Sundoulos]

I'd say that if anything is missing from Zelda 2, it's the active item-use that is so well-integrated in most other Zelda games.  In the original Zelda, you have a nice mixture of items that either passive (for example, those that augment Link's defense) or those that can actively be used as weapons.   Part of the fun of the original Zelda came from experimentation with the items; it was fun playing around with items just to see what effects they would have on certain enemies. 

That experimentation factor is lost in Zelda 2.    Most of the items in Zelda 2 can not be actively used by the player; they simply augment Link's abilities in some way.  Even the items that the player can actively employ are only useful in a handful of places in the game.

The game makes up for this with some of the additional sword moves and magic spells that are earned throughout the game, and, don't get me wrong, these additions are fun.  Still, there were really only 2 or three spells that I ever used with any regularity.   Most spells were pretty useless, and one of the useful offensive spells comes with a very high MP cost.  With the exception of the upward and downward strike, they don't drastically change how you play the game.

Anyway, I'm still on the third temple; I'm moving through this gradually.   Being a husband and a dad to a 19 month- old, my gaming time is virtually non-existent these days. 

[Jonnyboy117]

I just learned something potentially game-changing, something I never realized before when playing Zelda II. I was starting to wonder about the usefulness of leveling up magic, because it seemed to only reduce the cost of certain spells, and usually not the most useful ones (e.g. Life). I've seen Jump get discounted twice now, and it's not expensive in the first place! After seeing the cost of Jump drop to only 8 magic points yesterday, I realized that I had Jump selected while the level up took place, because I had just defeated the 5th Temple boss.

Hypothesis: You choose which spell's cost will be reduced by a magic upgrade, according to which spell is selected at the time. If this is true, and I had known about it earlier, I'd be casting Life for practically nothing by now...

Can anyone confirm or disprove this hypothesis, either from experience or by trying it out on your next level up? I'm already at magic level 7, so it's going to be a while before I get another chance.

[Sundoulos]

Unfortunately, the spell costs are predetermined by your current Magic level.  Some spells (e.g. Jump and Reflect) are reduced in cost at every nearly level gain.  The cost of the Life Spell never gets lower than 50 MP.

Here's a gamefaq detailing it if you want a reference.

[Jonnyboy117]

Ahh, thanks for the info. Guess I just need to find the last magic container if I want to use Life more often! At least this means I haven't been screwing myself throughout the game.

[yoshi1001]

I'd say that if anything is missing from Zelda 2, it's the active item-use that is so well-integrated in most other Zelda games.  In the original Zelda, you have a nice mixture of items that either passive (for example, those that augment Link's defense) or those that can actively be used as weapons.   Part of the fun of the original Zelda came from experimentation with the items; it was fun playing around with items just to see what effects they would have on certain enemies. 

That experimentation factor is lost in Zelda 2.    Most of the items in Zelda 2 can not be actively used by the player; they simply augment Link's abilities in some way.  Even the items that the player can actively employ are only useful in a handful of places in the game.

That's one of the major improvements of LttP. Because the items themselves use magic there, magic feels a lot more useful and has more interesting behavior. Of course, you still have the three Zelda II-like spells, contained in the medallions.

[llaffer]

This is the first time I chose to participate in  the Retroactives (I avoided SG&G like the plague).

I have played this several times when I was a kid, playing multiple times through.  And then every 2-5 years or so, have played it through to the last area where I usually find something else to draw my attention.

I thought I had bought this before from WiiVC, but I guess I played it on the GameCube from the collector's pack, so I had to buy it again - not a bad $5.

So far, I've played about an hour.  Remembering how things went, I collected a few of the early items, and got the first two spells before going into the first temple. 

Then in the first temple, I really took my time killing everyhing, including those damned bubbles that take 83 strikes to kill.  But a well worth 50 XP, when it only costs 200 or so to level the attack.

I finish the first boss and I'm leveled up to 3-1-3, and sitting at 91 XP out of the 100 to level up the magic.  I didn't want to waste the crystal insertion on that, so I ran around until I found a spawn point of a blue blob.  I kill it, move out, move in, kill it, etc.   I'm at 99XP, and the next kill drops a damned bottle (who thought that potions should be a replacement to XP should be shot).  Anyway,. I got the 101/100, passed on the magic upgrade, then turned in the crystal to get my XP up to 800/800 (of which, I passed that, and didn't take long to get to 1000/1000 to get my attack to 4.

A little more running around, and I get to the second dungeon.  The parts that really frustrate me the most is the random movement of those blobs.  You think they're moving one way, and then jump another.  In one area of the level, I try to jump up onto a bridge, over a death drop, and I get hit by the blob, and fall back at a different angle from where I jumped from, so land in the death drop.  I do this 3 times, lose all my lives.  Saved and quit at this point.

I'll try to play more of this over the weekend.  But other than the last 5 minutes, I was enjoying playing through it again.

[buttle]

i've just finished the second temple.  i bought the game today, and it took me all afternoon to get to that point.  i've leveled up to 4 for all three. 

i don't get why the townsfolk was telling me the candle was to the west, when it was to the north east.  i searched that west town up and down before i just started making my way into dark caves.  i don't mind the lack of help, but i could do without the misleading tips.

i'm remembering why i quit this game when i was younger.  it's the only zelda i haven't finished.  but i'm going to stick with it.

it's funny, i quit because an area was simply too hard, but back then i didn't know about leveling and grinding.  but now that i know what i'm doing, i can see it's a really funny system.  the trails, the fairies, the different enemies and different environments. 

[Stratos]

This is your first post, Buttle. Welcome to the forums!

I'm hoping that I can play catchup on this title with you all once my first paycheck for my new job comes in. I only played it a little bit back in the day.

[Jonnyboy117]

You've got some time, Stratos (and anyone else who hasn't started yet). Part one of the on-air discussion is going out next episode, but then we'll take a week off from RetroActive for E3 coverage.