Author Topic: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*  (Read 3141118 times)

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Offline Ceric

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6650 on: May 02, 2012, 12:11:53 PM »
Inflation doesn't affect everything.

Nah. Just the stuff that costs money.

You know the ironic thing about this whole discussion.  The $500 dollar PS3 which is pretty much equivalent to today's PS3 was consider at Launch a Cheap Blu-Ray Player.  Considering it has/had a lot more capability then most/all Blu-Ray players at the time.  Its can stream video, Play Games, Store and play Music, output 3D, etc.  Being one of the people who decided to buy a $600 PS3 for Hardware Backward compatibility I can easily say that my RoI for the system is better than almost anything I own.  It definitely wasn't because of the games.

The only problem with that is the Phat PS3 model has a really bad failure rate. Maybe its not quite as bad as the 360 was in its first years, but it was still pretty bad. So $600 is a lot of money for something that breaks down a few months or a couple years after purchasing it. In order for the RoI to pay off the investment has to actually continue operating, and with the Phat model that was an issue for a good number of people.
You know I use mine at least 6 hours a day average and I haven't had any notable problems at all out of it.  Been going strong for over 4 and a half years now.

I couldn't find the thread where I bought my PS3 but I did find this from the Revolution days.

Launch Prices

$199 Atari 2600
$299  Intellivision
$150  Intellivision II
$249.99 Jaguar
$299.99 TurboDuo
$200 Master System
$200 Genesis
$200  Super Nintendo
$399 Sega Saturn
$299 Playstation (That was a surprise to me.  It thought it looked terrible and would never make it)
$199 N64


I just feel that it's gotten to the point that since there not using off the shelf parts that a $50 price markup would be justified.  Especially if they included a game like everyone wants. (I had a point with those but lost.  Though I thought that was interesting so I'm leaving it up.)
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Offline Louieturkey

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6651 on: May 02, 2012, 12:40:40 PM »
My Phat PS3 died after 3 years because I stupidly put an HD Dish DVR receiver below it which generated a lot of heat (more than the PS3) and the combined heat of the PS3 and the DVR caused it to overheat.  Luckily, an error in my favor got me a free 120GB Slim PS3 so it all worked out and I also got my Phat fixed and didn't lose anything on the HDD either. 

I have a feeling most people who had problems with their Phat had a similar situation to me or their system was in a place where there was little ventilation so it was recycling the hot air back into the system.

There were problems but no where near what the original 360 had.  The fail rate of the phat ps3 was I think around 6% before the slim was released.  The fail rate of the 360 was at a 60% rate (and yes, I have no sources, I'm going by memory from 3 years ago). ;)

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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6653 on: May 02, 2012, 01:41:12 PM »
I fix game consoles for a living, and I think it's safe to say that the "phat" model PS3 failure rate most likely is just as bad as the 2005-08 XBox 360.

That 6%/60% comparison is not even close. I would put them both at around 85% - but the susceptibility to failure is 100% in  both cases.

The failure of the PS3 and XBox 360 is not due to having too many components around, or poor ventilation (though that certainly does not help) - it was bad design, period. I have only seen one PS3 Slim with the Yellow Light of Death (which is a generic code anyway, though 95% of the time it's a cold solder joint under the GPU just like on the 360 with the RRoD), and have *never* seen a Jasper (late 2008-2009) XBox 360 with the RRoD.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 01:47:19 PM by Brandogg »
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Offline Ceric

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6654 on: May 02, 2012, 05:07:31 PM »
I fix game consoles for a living, and I think it's safe to say that the "phat" model PS3 failure rate most likely is just as bad as the 2005-08 XBox 360.

That 6%/60% comparison is not even close. I would put them both at around 85% - but the susceptibility to failure is 100% in  both cases.

The failure of the PS3 and XBox 360 is not due to having too many components around, or poor ventilation (though that certainly does not help) - it was bad design, period. I have only seen one PS3 Slim with the Yellow Light of Death (which is a generic code anyway, though 95% of the time it's a cold solder joint under the GPU just like on the 360 with the RRoD), and have *never* seen a Jasper (late 2008-2009) XBox 360 with the RRoD.
I can't find any numbers online that put the PS3 and 360 in the RROD era at the same percentage of failure.  The numbers I've been able to find puts the PS3 at half the failure rate of the 360, which in my opinion is still high.
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Offline Louieturkey

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6655 on: May 02, 2012, 07:10:21 PM »
I fix game consoles for a living, and I think it's safe to say that the "phat" model PS3 failure rate most likely is just as bad as the 2005-08 XBox 360.

That 6%/60% comparison is not even close. I would put them both at around 85% - but the susceptibility to failure is 100% in  both cases.

The failure of the PS3 and XBox 360 is not due to having too many components around, or poor ventilation (though that certainly does not help) - it was bad design, period. I have only seen one PS3 Slim with the Yellow Light of Death (which is a generic code anyway, though 95% of the time it's a cold solder joint under the GPU just like on the 360 with the RRoD), and have *never* seen a Jasper (late 2008-2009) XBox 360 with the RRoD.
FYI, most people sent their 360s back to M$ because they were replaced for free and wouldn't lose what was on the HDD.  With the PS3, sending the system to Sony meant losing everything on your HDD no matter what.  It's the main reason I went with a 3rd party repair company to fix my system.  They guaranteed the HDD would be left as is and all my stuff would stay.  It was there when I got it back.
There is no way the PS3 had the same failure rate as the 360 or else there would have been huge outcry about it similar to what happened with the PSN hacking and then Sony would have had to do something about it.  There was no public outcry. So they never got dinged like M$ did.

Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6656 on: May 02, 2012, 07:14:03 PM »
Adrock:  I agree I don't think the price of games is dropping.  My point is people are saying Nintendo can't offer the system at 300+ because it would kill the market.  But I think that isn't true.  I think $350 is not only likely but I think people will buy it at that price in droves. 

But, the people saying that the hardware is too expensive for consumers, and hardware prices are killing the industry I personally think are wrong.  I think the software is the most expensive part of this hobby...it is not likely to ever change, but the fact is gaming is pretty expensive hobby.  And to people like me...it isn't the entry level it is the sustained constant expense of games that keeps me from being all in.

Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6657 on: May 02, 2012, 09:33:47 PM »
There is a huge public outcry over the PS3, there just aren't nearly as many old-style PS3s as their are old-style XBox 360s. SONY does not give a single **** about their customers (and Microsoft voluntarily did the 3 year warranty - not that they are any better than SONY) - SONY even charges a $50 diagnostic fee just for you to send them your console, and if you don't pay it within 15 days THEY KEEP YOUR CONSOLE.

You'll never find official failure rates, because no one releases information like that, but on a percentage-wise basis, the failures rates are certainly extremely close - again, there aren't nearly as many "Phat" PS3s as there pre-Jasper XBox 360s.

Also, if you ever did send a console to SONY, they specifically tell you to remove the hard drive, just like Microsoft does, so you shouldn't lose anything (unless SONY sends you a different console, in which case, depending on which model PS3 you have, you might lose everything anyway).
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Offline SixthAngel

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6658 on: May 02, 2012, 11:43:55 PM »
I don't know failure rates either but I'm pretty sure that even if they are failing now that PS3's lasted far longer than the 360s.    With the 360 it wasn't just shitty hardware but hardware so shitty that it failed so quickly.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6659 on: May 03, 2012, 12:06:57 AM »
According to chatter, there may be more to the Android on Wii U rumor than we may have thought.

Not exactly Android, but very possible that Google is working with Nintendo on OS functionality and it's quite possibly very full featured.

Quote from: Supposed Google Employee
I wouldn't worry about the functionality of Wii U's OS or front-end. It'll be more full-featured then most people imagine.
[...]
...I wasn't guessing.
Not going to say anything else, but people should take heart.


I could point all the way back to those Google/Nintendo OS rumors from way back when, but I don't feel like looking them up right now.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 12:46:55 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline Oblivion

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6660 on: May 03, 2012, 12:16:37 AM »
Meh. I really don't like Android.

Offline Sarail

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6661 on: May 03, 2012, 12:27:25 AM »
Android doesn't have anything to do with it...

But Google+ is all over the freaking place. That'd definitely put Nintendo back in everyone's everyday social atmosphere.

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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6662 on: May 03, 2012, 12:37:04 AM »
so I looked it up after all.
I've got something for us all to speculate on. It's something some of us have mentioned that Nintendo needs in the next system to bring them up to date feature-wise with the competition.

A background operating system that allows uniformity of function between different features and software. Such as Wii speak being independent from the game you are playing so that you can have a conversation with a friend while surfing the net, paying a game (same or different) or while browsing the WiiShop, background downloading (self explanatory), user accounts, etc. etc.

First we'll start with the Nintendo ES Operating System (NES OS?)that they were working on since way back before the release of the Wii
Inside Nintendo's ES Open-Source Operating System
Quote
[...]an open-source operating system from Nintendo, titled ES[...]was made public on August 30, 2006.
[...]
ES "runs natively on x86 (and qemu of course), kernel is written in C++, uses an ECMAScript interpreter for all of the userland, uses Cairo for graphics, and even has a port of [programming language] Squeak."

The OS is a 'research system,' meaning that there is no specific application for it at present, and is being used for experimentation. However, a story commenter on Gamedev.net theorizes: that it could be the framework for something like Microsoft's XNA, and is certainly expandable to platforms other than PC with a little work.

The commenter, 'ravyne2001' postulates: "Officially, it's simply a "research operating system." Something Nintendo is toying with and which may or may not lead to an eventual release in much the same way that Nintendo has always been in constant hardware development..."

"The working theory" he continues, "seems to be that this OS might be the early stages of something similar to Microsoft's XNA -- basically a sandbox environment which offers hardware acceleration and a userland based on some form of VM execution, ECMAscript in this instance. Although the current build is against X86, it could be ported over to PPC to run on the Wii, for instance."

For now, the operating system is laid bare to the public, which OSNews commentors seem to think is designed with broad adoption and simplicity in mind.

We know the next Wii needs a central OS to avoid the incompatible short sighted mess that is the current IOS we use now (older games can't use SDHC cards because it wasn't programmed for them, can't use WiiSpeak in multiplayer games because they weren't programmed for it, can't use whatever control scheme I want since it wasn't programmed for it, etc. etc.).

But the lead programmer for this ES Operating system left Nintendo for Google Japan....
http://jp.linkedin.com/pub/shiki-okasaka/7/876/5b3
Quote
Shiki Okasaka’s Experience

    *
      Software Engineer
      Google Japan Inc.

      (Public Company; 10,001 or more employees; GOOG; Internet industry)

      January 2008 — Present (2 years 4 months)
   
    *
      Group Manager
      Nintendo Co., Ltd.

      (Entertainment industry)

      August 1998 — December 2007 (9 years 5 months)

      Designed and developed the operating system for GameCube

But he is still working on the ES Operating system which just so happens to be under copyright by Nintendo & Google.
http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/
Quote
We are creating a new pure component operating system named ES. This  project was started by Shiki Okasaka and Kyu Ueno at Nintendo largely  affected by Rob Pike's "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant" talk in  2000. Since 2008, this project has been hosted in Google Code under the  copyright of both Google and Nintendo in hope we can reach more people  worldwide.

But what does all this mean? Is this something that Nintendo is hoping to make standard and use in the next home console?

Google just recently came out with their own browser and have an Operating System that soon to follow, could this code research have some overlap?

Is it possible that for the next generation Nintendo & Google team up to provide the software tools & enironment needed to build games and online infrastructure for future Nintendo systems?

Quote from: *2007
"We propose an extensible component operating system architecture in  which an operating system kernel uses reflection to process C++ pure  virtual function based system calls and upcalls to provide a unified  programming environment for application, server, and kernel development.  We found that we could even develop file subsystems and a TCP/IP  protocol stack on an existing operating system based on this  architecture."

What does everyone think of a NintenGoogle team-up?

They do have common rivals in Apple & MS
and if the OS is any good, you can count on Sony licensing it* just to stick it to MS... and make things harder for Apple.

Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6663 on: May 03, 2012, 01:00:32 AM »
Interesting.  Does it really benefit Nintendo to be bed partners with Google?  Does it hurt them any?  I guess Nintendo could do worse than to integrate some of the Google stuff that people are already using.  Think about A Gmail, Google Calenders, and other google stuff families may already use being functional on the Wii U out of the box.  This is appealing to the casual market immediately, because it is what many already use. 

Offline MegaByte

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6664 on: May 03, 2012, 01:10:01 AM »
The main guy on that project later left Google to start his own company and continue development on the OS. Here's his blog: http://shiki.esrille.com/ FWIW, he also designed the GameCube OS.
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Offline Ymeegod

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6665 on: May 03, 2012, 03:40:07 AM »
"Microsoft voluntarily did the 3 year warranty "  LOL, not sure where you read that but the government forced the issue.  Class-action lawsuits is what changed MS "heart".

 

Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6666 on: May 03, 2012, 04:58:45 AM »
There is a huge public outcry over the PS3, there just aren't nearly as many old-style PS3s as their are old-style XBox 360s. SONY does not give a single **** about their customers (and Microsoft voluntarily did the 3 year warranty - not that they are any better than SONY) - SONY even charges a $50 diagnostic fee just for you to send them your console, and if you don't pay it within 15 days THEY KEEP YOUR CONSOLE.


Proof? I highly doubt Sony is that stingy.
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Offline tendoboy1984

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6667 on: May 03, 2012, 05:01:57 AM »
so I looked it up after all.
I've got something for us all to speculate on. It's something some of us have mentioned that Nintendo needs in the next system to bring them up to date feature-wise with the competition.

A background operating system that allows uniformity of function between different features and software. Such as Wii speak being independent from the game you are playing so that you can have a conversation with a friend while surfing the net, paying a game (same or different) or while browsing the WiiShop, background downloading (self explanatory), user accounts, etc. etc.

First we'll start with the Nintendo ES Operating System (NES OS?)that they were working on since way back before the release of the Wii
Inside Nintendo's ES Open-Source Operating System
Quote
[...]an open-source operating system from Nintendo, titled ES[...]was made public on August 30, 2006.
[...]
ES "runs natively on x86 (and qemu of course), kernel is written in C++, uses an ECMAScript interpreter for all of the userland, uses Cairo for graphics, and even has a port of [programming language] Squeak."

The OS is a 'research system,' meaning that there is no specific application for it at present, and is being used for experimentation. However, a story commenter on Gamedev.net theorizes: that it could be the framework for something like Microsoft's XNA, and is certainly expandable to platforms other than PC with a little work.

The commenter, 'ravyne2001' postulates: "Officially, it's simply a "research operating system." Something Nintendo is toying with and which may or may not lead to an eventual release in much the same way that Nintendo has always been in constant hardware development..."

"The working theory" he continues, "seems to be that this OS might be the early stages of something similar to Microsoft's XNA -- basically a sandbox environment which offers hardware acceleration and a userland based on some form of VM execution, ECMAscript in this instance. Although the current build is against X86, it could be ported over to PPC to run on the Wii, for instance."

For now, the operating system is laid bare to the public, which OSNews commentors seem to think is designed with broad adoption and simplicity in mind.

We know the next Wii needs a central OS to avoid the incompatible short sighted mess that is the current IOS we use now (older games can't use SDHC cards because it wasn't programmed for them, can't use WiiSpeak in multiplayer games because they weren't programmed for it, can't use whatever control scheme I want since it wasn't programmed for it, etc. etc.).

But the lead programmer for this ES Operating system left Nintendo for Google Japan....
http://jp.linkedin.com/pub/shiki-okasaka/7/876/5b3
Quote
Shiki Okasaka’s Experience

    *
      Software Engineer
      Google Japan Inc.

      (Public Company; 10,001 or more employees; GOOG; Internet industry)

      January 2008 — Present (2 years 4 months)
   
    *
      Group Manager
      Nintendo Co., Ltd.

      (Entertainment industry)

      August 1998 — December 2007 (9 years 5 months)

      Designed and developed the operating system for GameCube

But he is still working on the ES Operating system which just so happens to be under copyright by Nintendo & Google.
http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/
Quote
We are creating a new pure component operating system named ES. This  project was started by Shiki Okasaka and Kyu Ueno at Nintendo largely  affected by Rob Pike's "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant" talk in  2000. Since 2008, this project has been hosted in Google Code under the  copyright of both Google and Nintendo in hope we can reach more people  worldwide.

But what does all this mean? Is this something that Nintendo is hoping to make standard and use in the next home console?

Google just recently came out with their own browser and have an Operating System that soon to follow, could this code research have some overlap?

Is it possible that for the next generation Nintendo & Google team up to provide the software tools & enironment needed to build games and online infrastructure for future Nintendo systems?

Quote from: *2007
"We propose an extensible component operating system architecture in  which an operating system kernel uses reflection to process C++ pure  virtual function based system calls and upcalls to provide a unified  programming environment for application, server, and kernel development.  We found that we could even develop file subsystems and a TCP/IP  protocol stack on an existing operating system based on this  architecture."

What does everyone think of a NintenGoogle team-up?

They do have common rivals in Apple & MS
and if the OS is any good, you can count on Sony licensing it* just to stick it to MS... and make things harder for Apple.


So Nintendo and Google teamed up to make an OS? This is news to me, how long have they supposedly been working on it?
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6668 on: May 03, 2012, 08:01:35 AM »
But he is still working on the ES Operating system which just so happens to be under copyright by Nintendo & Google.
http://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/
Quote
We are creating a new pure component operating system named ES. This  project was started by Shiki Okasaka and Kyu Ueno at Nintendo largely  affected by Rob Pike's "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant" talk in  2000. Since 2008, this project has been hosted in Google Code under the  copyright of both Google and Nintendo in hope we can reach more people  worldwide.

But what does all this mean? Is this something that Nintendo is hoping to make standard and use in the next home console?

Google just recently came out with their own browser and have an Operating System that soon to follow, could this code research have some overlap?

Is it possible that for the next generation Nintendo & Google team up to provide the software tools & enironment needed to build games and online infrastructure for future Nintendo systems?

Quote from: *2007
"We propose an extensible component operating system architecture in  which an operating system kernel uses reflection to process C++ pure  virtual function based system calls and upcalls to provide a unified  programming environment for application, server, and kernel development.  We found that we could even develop file subsystems and a TCP/IP  protocol stack on an existing operating system based on this  architecture."



So Nintendo and Google teamed up to make an OS? This is news to me, how long have they supposedly been working on it?

I did the research, it's all right there.

But to answer your question; Since atleast 2007, the research done in 2010, and Wii U being released in 2012 means they've been tinkering with this for 5 atleast years, and 4 of those "with" Google.

Offline Ceric

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6669 on: May 03, 2012, 08:14:46 AM »
In light of a lot of the licensing issues with Android.  I as Nintendo wouldn't want Google's help with an OS.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6670 on: May 03, 2012, 08:29:30 AM »
Nintendo would make sure all software patents were available or secured before release.

Nintendo Law Sharks are quite vicious... but that's understandable when you have a squad of Nintenjas to intimidate all opposition.

Offline Adrock

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6671 on: May 03, 2012, 08:37:08 AM »
Nintendo would make sure all software patents were available or secured before release.
Would they? I thought that was one of the biggest issues with Android. Apple has been suing the **** out of Android OEMs for patent infringment and Microsoft has been practically forcing companies like Samsung and HTC into signing licensing deals.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6672 on: May 03, 2012, 11:49:08 AM »
Thats on Googles end & the whole reason why Google purchased motorola mobility.

Now Apple is losing lawsuits and Google currently has ridiculous patent lawsuit against microsoft right now.

Teaming with google for the patent library alone for OS functions on the uMote  (mobile touchscreen device) would be a very smart move, if you ask me.

Offline Louieturkey

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6673 on: May 03, 2012, 12:25:02 PM »
There is a huge public outcry over the PS3, there just aren't nearly as many old-style PS3s as their are old-style XBox 360s.
Please site your numbers.  This seems farfetched unless you are including all models of old style 360(including Jasper)

Quote
SONY does not give a single **** about their customers (and Microsoft voluntarily did the 3 year warranty - not that they are any better than SONY) - SONY even charges a $50 diagnostic fee just for you to send them your console, and if you don't pay it within 15 days THEY KEEP YOUR CONSOLE.
I believe I read about this.  It's another reason why I didn't send my YLOD system to them and instead to a 3rd party.

Quote
You'll never find official failure rates, because no one releases information like that, but on a percentage-wise basis, the failures rates are certainly extremely close - again, there aren't nearly as many "Phat" PS3s as there pre-Jasper XBox 360s.
According to this study by Squaretrade in 2009 and this study in 2008 by Ars Technica, the PS3 is failing at a normal rate, whereas the 360 was absolutely horrible.  Please site your studies that show the PS3 and 360 failed at an equal rate.

Quote
Also, if you ever did send a console to SONY, they specifically tell you to remove the hard drive, just like Microsoft does, so you shouldn't lose anything (unless SONY sends you a different console, in which case, depending on which model PS3 you have, you might lose everything anyway).
Yeah, they said to remove the HDD.  The problem was that you had no guarantee you'd get your original system back, whereas the 3rd party guaranteed they'd give me my original system back.  I think we're agreeing here that Sony's repair, replacement, and warranty system suck.

Offline Louieturkey

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Re: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*
« Reply #6674 on: May 03, 2012, 12:26:15 PM »
The main guy on that project later left Google to start his own company and continue development on the OS. Here's his blog: http://shiki.esrille.com/ FWIW, he also designed the GameCube OS.
Didn't this guy work for Nintendo at first and was working on this OS?  Then he started working for Google and was allowed to continue to work on the OS (hence how Nintendo and Google started talking)?

Edit: Oh yeah, since he worked on the GCN OS, I'd think he worked for Nintendo before. :)