Author Topic: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'  (Read 217252 times)

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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #775 on: December 15, 2009, 09:55:59 PM »
"But buying that perception from their fans isn't cheap."

Well they've certainly saved money given the reduced number of fans they've got today, no?
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Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #776 on: December 15, 2009, 10:00:19 PM »
I'm only the minority here, so perhaps you are wrong, like the Y2K preachers. I've read Malstroms critiques and found them wanting. His thoughts are more embarassing the Pachters. He is out of touch as "star finder Mario" revolutionized the industry.  All he cares about are sales. Which is probably why he loves the Jonas Brothers. 
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #777 on: December 15, 2009, 10:06:03 PM »
Yeah yeah blah blah Hoak Hogan Destrucity Blah.

But he does offer critiques of the Wii without insulting everybody.  And you find them wanting because you want articles that "take Nintendo down a notch," even though Nintendo's basically been piled upon for about 5 years straight for any topic under the sun.  Which is, suffice to say, pretty boring when another one gets made because Nintendo neglected kart skins or something.

I mean it's getting really predictable.  And when IGN gets predictable in their Wii trolling, they lose the site hits they want, because even though they are being little whiny bitches, it's so old hat that nobody cares.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 10:09:00 PM by Deguello »
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #778 on: December 15, 2009, 10:31:38 PM »
Being late to the party with a compressed list of Nintendo complaints from the past 5 years is not an effective way to provide content as a press outlet.  Normally, they'd offer a column with a focus on more tangible topics, like Matt's Wii Music piece, but apparently lacked that this year.  This year's Mario article is 2006 stuff, but they probably didn't realize it or was too distracted by Zelda ports and system launches then.

Is this how they close the year?  Aged bitterness towards a 2D platformer and its customers (many of whom don't visit IGN for their wisdom and content)?  Imagine what the annual Wii awards will be like!

All this stuff is not a good sign of things to come, of the professionally produced content that interwebbers used to expect from them.  What they will expect is that unpleasant SOMETHING underneath the bridge.  But on their computer screen?  Maybe not so much anymore.
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Offline Guitar Smasher

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #779 on: December 15, 2009, 11:37:24 PM »
it would be nice if Nintendo swallowed their pride like Sony did and offered an achievement system for those that like it (if you don't like them, change the settings on your system).

But, I am obviously the minority in that group.  It seems any article the critiques the Wii ends up in this thread and is immediately declared a troll.  Obviously, no system is perfect, so can anyone here point me to an article that strongly critiques the Wii in a non "pathetic" manner?
Adding achievements to an already solid game is just fine.  The argument isn't that achievements are bad, but that they are used as a crutch for a disappointing game.

But the real issue with IGN's analysis is that they're actually saying that Wii games are bad because they don't include them, and that Wii gamers who don't care about them are stupid.  It's childish.

Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #780 on: December 16, 2009, 12:42:05 AM »
it would be nice if Nintendo swallowed their pride like Sony did and offered an achievement system for those that like it (if you don't like them, change the settings on your system).

But, I am obviously the minority in that group.  It seems any article the critiques the Wii ends up in this thread and is immediately declared a troll.  Obviously, no system is perfect, so can anyone here point me to an article that strongly critiques the Wii in a non "pathetic" manner?
Adding achievements to an already solid game is just fine.  The argument isn't that achievements are bad, but that they are used as a crutch for a disappointing game.

But the real issue with IGN's analysis is that they're actually saying that Wii games are bad because they don't include them, and that Wii gamers who don't care about them are stupid.  It's childish.

Actualy, Greg Miller, one of the PS3 guys on the podcast LOVES New Super Mario Bros.  He went to Gamestop 4 times before they finally had the copy that he pre-ordered.

In the big pictures, achievements are a on going game.  Are they worthless?  Sure.  But so are all games.  They're not going to make you a better man.  But both are fun and that's why the vast majority of gamers like them.  Even stay at home moms in Indiana get into them.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #781 on: December 16, 2009, 01:06:33 AM »
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Actualy, Greg Miller, one of the PS3 guys on the podcast LOVES New Super Mario Bros.  He went to Gamestop 4 times before they finally had the copy that he pre-ordered.

While this is all well and good, what does this have to do with the price of nutmeg, where the price of nutmeg is IGN calling Nintendo fans "brainwashed" and "stupid?"  And how does this refute Guitar Smasher's point of them being childish?

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In the big pictures, achievements are a on going game.  Are they worthless?  Sure.  But so are all games.  They're not going to make you a better man.  But both are fun and that's why the vast majority of gamers like them.  Even stay at home moms in Indiana get into them.

The plural of anecdote is not data, and the singular isn't datum.  While it is nice that kotaku scoured the globe to find one homemaker somewhere who extols the majesty of gamerscore e-peens doesn't mean the consensus is that they are worthwhile additions, on par with motion controls or touch screens, which have converted into real phenomena.  Particularly when the innovation is just taking things that had existed in games for decades (challenges, unlockable rewards or otherwise) and linking it to a subscription social network.

I guess the point is, what does all this have to do with IGN's podcast calling Nintendo fans "brainwashed" because they may not see that achievement gamerscore points are as big an innovation as controlling videogames with motion?  Quick, name a scifi movie where the futuristic computers are all controlled with little pop-up windows that said "you did it!" when the techs access data.  Can't?  How about one where they are touching holograms or grabbing things on the screen and tossing them around or where they are touching the screen?

Furthermore, said "achievements" already exist and have existed for a long time.  They just don't link to social network profiles.  When seen in that light, it's really hard to see the comparison with engineering a new way to control videogames, or even putting them in the same league.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 01:15:39 AM by Deguello »
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Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #782 on: December 16, 2009, 01:35:51 AM »
They call them brainwashed for many reasons. Here's a few.

The fanboys shout they would rather play SD games on an HD TV. Which does look fugly.

They declare imputing 100's of friend codes is awesome.

And the thought "we don't need Wii demos, those are pointless."



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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #783 on: December 16, 2009, 01:45:19 AM »
That's idiotic
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #784 on: December 16, 2009, 01:47:05 AM »
They call them brainwashed for many reasons. Here's a few.

The fanboys shout they would rather play SD games on an HD TV. Which does look fugly.

They declare imputing 100's of friend codes is awesome.

And the thought "we don't need Wii demos, those are pointless."

Indeed, I think what IGN's getting at is aspect of the Nintendo fanbase: "because Nintendo chooses not to do something that everyone else does, not only does this mean that that feature wasn't important in the first place but those that enjoy that feature are stupid.  The inverse is also true when Nintendo does something convoluted (like Friend Codes) that no one else does."

While this is by no means an exclusive trait of Nintendo fans (the other platforms have their share of die-hard supporters), I have certainly seen instances of this on these very boards.  "The people who buy the Wii by the boatload don't care about HD, therefore HD obviously sucks!"  "We obviously don't need a dedicated online system, because look at all the games over history that haven't used one!"  And so on.  Because there are legions of people buying Wiis that don't care about gaming and its development once their latest session of Wii Play is over, obviously those who do are stupid for wanting to reap the benefits of its evolution.

To me, such things are silly.  Sure, you can make a great game without the various bells & whistles and there are some recent advances that have been abused (like DLC), but you can make an even better game with them.  I think that's the argument that so many die-hard Nintendo supporters don't understand, and that's why IGN calls them "brainwashed."

Still, I don't think you're really making your case when you insult your audience instead of putting forth a rational argument.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 02:03:24 AM by broodwars »
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #785 on: December 16, 2009, 01:47:37 AM »
Motion Gaming and the Wii initiative brings in (BROUGHT, TONS) new players that don't pay attention to IGN.  This is the deal.

Achievements (stickers for your inconsequential online notebook) probably aren't truly what IGN is heralding, it's just an champion object they happen to throw out there (with no substantial justification) to say this is something important to gamers and the industry (aka potential site traffic that can relate to these hardtard journalists) that Nintendo is not emphasizing on Wii.  It's something that differentiates their Industry from Nintendo, and that Nintendo should be punished for not following with the rest of the happy Industry+followers.

Nintendo, the entity they thought was their traditional serious-gamer sanctuary, has built an audience that does not care about IGN.  THIS is IGN's problem.

This whole mess goes beyond who's buying what and nitpicking what Nintendo does.  Typically you can expect some heated content once in a while, cuz that's what happens when sites focus on Nintendo, but this thing has been cooking deep down so long to the point of serving intentionally POOR CONTENT to their guests.

Folks, it really is meltdown.  Professionalism in game journalism?  All doubts have been erased.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 01:51:55 AM by NinGurl69 *huggles »
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #786 on: December 16, 2009, 02:26:04 AM »
They call them brainwashed for many reasons. Here's a few.

The fanboys shout they would rather play SD games on an HD TV. Which does look fugly.

They declare imputing 100's of friend codes is awesome.

And the thought "we don't need Wii demos, those are pointless."

And nowhere in the podcast do they say any of this.  Generic hatred of fanboys not present in the discussion is yawn-worthy.  Strawmen to not construct arguments in and of themselves.  Epic fail.  Next.

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Indeed, I think what IGN's getting at is aspect of the Nintendo fanbase: "because Nintendo chooses not to do something that everyone else does, not only does this mean that that feature wasn't important in the first place but those that enjoy that feature are stupid.  The inverse is also true when Nintendo does something convoluted (like Friend Codes) that no one else does."

So when Nintendo does things that nobody else wants to, like invent motion controls... that's bad?  Would the game industry even have HAD control innovation this generation without Nintendo basically introducing the touch screen and Motion controllers to games?  I mean this is stuff they did and nobody else did.  And meanwhile, how do the IGN guys NOT exhibit what you just said?  They're basically saying anybody who has a Wii and enjoys motion controls over achievement points is stupid, trying to say it isn't important and they've "ceded the market." (LOL!)

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While this is by no means an exclusive trait of Nintendo fans (the other platforms have their share of die-hard supporters), I have certainly seen instances of this on these very boards.  "The people who buy the Wii by the boatload don't care about HD, therefore HD obviously sucks!"

Perhaps they get attributed this idea because they simply say HD visuals are not worth the asking price of expensive consoles and +$10 game prices, and would rather they drop in price before swallowing the whole idea of "HD RULEZ!  WII SUX AND IZ FOR BABIEZ"  (Strawmen are easy to create.)

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"We obviously don't need a dedicated online system, because look at all the games over history that haven't used one!"  And so on.

Oh what's really going to twist your noodle is that the #1 online-enabled game of all time is Mario Kart Wii.  Doesn't speak a lot for $50-a-year online fees when they can't even score the #1 game with online features.  I remember last generation Nintendo fans were saddled with an apparent hatred of online (strangely, Sony fans and the majority of gamers were not said to "hate" online.  Hmm... I'm noticing a trend here.)  Now it's apparently "Centralized, dedicated, monthly-subscription online services" which not even PC and PS3 owners have to put up with.

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To me, such things are silly.  Sure, you can make a great game without the various bells & whistles and there are some recent advances that have been abused (like DLC), but you can make an even better game with them.  I think that's the argument that so many die-hard Nintendo supporters don't understand, and that's why IGN calls them "brainwashed."

DLC "abuse" isn't the half of it.  In most cases, we're getting RIPPED OFF.  The game's already $10 more expensive.  Now they are nickel-and-dimeing gamers with this crap?  One could make an argument that those not outraged or deeply concerned to say the least would be "brainwashed."  This was a good advancement?  Making games more expensive in a piecemeal fashion?  Just so game companies could sell extra content to less people than would buy a new game?  Great.  The problem with your assertion is that just mentioning the potential problems with these advancements, that achievements are useless, pointless, and lead to the de-linking of in-game achievements to non-DLC reward content makes us dichotomously opposed to any forms of advancement.

This is an attempt to label Nintendo fans again.  Kiddy didn't work with DS and Wii.  Casual isn't working either (partially because all those casual games keep flopping.)  Now it's back to "fanboy."  60-something million of them.  All brainwashed into hating achievement points being linked to an online profile.  That makes perfect sense. ::)

Edit: and Pro wins the thread again.  Got a good head on his shoulders, that one.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #787 on: December 16, 2009, 02:55:17 AM »
So when Nintendo does things that nobody else wants to, like invent motion controls... that's bad?  Would the game industry even have HAD control innovation this generation without Nintendo basically introducing the touch screen and Motion controllers to games?  I mean this is stuff they did and nobody else did.  And meanwhile, how do the IGN guys NOT exhibit what you just said?  They're basically saying anybody who has a Wii and enjoys motion controls over achievement points is stupid, trying to say it isn't important and they've "ceded the market." (LOL!)

I think Nintendo introducing motion controls before they had a controller that could actually do them right (via Wii Motion +) was a bad thing.  And actually, I believe I noted that while I agree with IGN's overall premise, I think they're going about it the wrong way because insulting your audience does not make for rational discussion.

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Oh what's really going to twist your noodle is that the #1 online-enabled game of all time is Mario Kart Wii.  Doesn't speak a lot for $50-a-year online fees when they can't even score the #1 game with online features.  I remember last generation Nintendo fans were saddled with an apparent hatred of online (strangely, Sony fans and the majority of gamers were not said to "hate" online.  Hmm... I'm noticing a trend here.)  Now it's apparently "Centralized, dedicated, monthly-subscription online services" which not even PC and PS3 owners have to put up with.

What's really going to twist your noodle is that I only own 2 systems: a Wii and a PS3, and honestly I don't give a damn about most of the online features of my games because I usually stick to singleplayer (I find online play to be rather uninteresting unless it's Co-op).  Sony can start charging $50 a year for online play and it won't affect me because I don't use that feature.  There are, however, many people who do care about online and perhaps someday so will I, so I like to see what companies do with it.  I also don't believe I ever cited that Nintendo fans "hated" online, so much as they seem to assume that because Nintendo doesn't pursue it that it doesn't matter.

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DLC "abuse" isn't the half of it.  In most cases, we're getting RIPPED OFF.  The game's already $10 more expensive.  Now they are nickel-and-dimeing gamers with this crap?  One could make an argument that those not outraged or deeply concerned to say the least would be "brainwashed."  This was a good advancement?  Making games more expensive in a piecemeal fashion?  Just so game companies could sell extra content to less people than would buy a new game?  Great.

As I noted, DLC as a feature has been unfortunately abused.  When it was created, it was intended as a method to extend the player's experience with the game long after finishing it instead of having to rush into creating a new expensive game experience to supplant it.  Companies have instead decided to use it as a means to rip the customer off by removing features from the game and selling them as DLC.  That does not mean that DLC is bad by its very nature, though, and has no place on a Nintendo system.  It simply means that consumers shouldn't support "Day 1 DLC", and if enough people do that than we won't have a problem with the feature getting abused as it has.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 02:56:54 AM by broodwars »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #788 on: December 16, 2009, 03:03:38 AM »
They call them brainwashed for many reasons. Here's a few.

The fanboys shout they would rather play SD games on an HD TV. Which does look fugly.

They declare imputing 100's of friend codes is awesome.

And the thought "we don't need Wii demos, those are pointless."

Who says this stuff? All of that seems rather ridiculous.

everyone I've seen voice an opinion has pointed out a want for demos even if they themselves didn't plan on using them often, and everyone that owns a Wii and has friends has pointed out their annoyance with Friend Codes.

As far a SD on HDtv, it doesn't always look bad and it really depends on how your HDtv handles SD content. Mine does it it quite well, so I have no issue with good quality SD on my HDtv.

and last but not least, Achievements.....
I think they would be a good addition as it might make me go back and play some of the games I'm a little less than enthusiastic to actually attempt to continue, but overall, it wouldn't matter one way or the other. If it was something to get added in the future, I would just hope that there is an option for turning off in-game notifications if you don't really care about them.

Offline Kairon

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #789 on: December 16, 2009, 04:50:35 AM »
Nintendo, the entity they thought was their traditional serious-gamer sanctuary, has built an audience that does not care about IGN.  THIS is IGN's problem.

This.

In many ways, Nintendo is, and always has been, at odds with commonly-accepted ideas of what makes something a game, what makes it fun, and who can play it. So take one young gaming subculture, wrap it in the internet, and heat it over the extravagance of countless E3s, add a pinch of zero-sum adrenaline, and I shouldn't be surprised at the resulting reaction against a value system that doesn't play by "its" rules.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #790 on: December 16, 2009, 05:38:27 AM »
To me, such things are silly.  Sure, you can make a great game without the various bells & whistles and there are some recent advances that have been abused (like DLC), but you can make an even better game with them.  I think that's the argument that so many die-hard Nintendo supporters don't understand, and that's why IGN calls them "brainwashed."

I don't think that Nintendo gamers like me are ignorant of the things we're missing out on. My lust for streaming Netflix to my tv through my game console is just as strong as my desire for Parappa the Rapper on the PlayStation 1. My friends don't instantly see me when I'm online with my Wii, and I'm definitely not sitting on the bleeding edge of graphical technology. Having all those things would be swell! (Except for having to buy an HDTV... I get sticker shock on those things.)

I think that what goes against the grain of common wisdom in an industry that has elements of both Blockbuster-obsessed Hollywood and Tech-obsessed Silicon Valley is that losing all these other features isn't a bad trade-off for a lot, or even a majority of people. We're all just making informed economic decisions about how much money we can spend, how many pixels we want to see, whether we always need to have a gun of some sort in our hand to have fun, and whether we want to push buttons or perform gestures.

I may look wistfully at a game like Little Big Planet, but I'm beyond excited with my purchase of A Boy And His Blob. After weighing all my options, (one of which is to spend $350 on a PS3 and a game), what's so brainwashed about that?
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #791 on: December 16, 2009, 08:44:26 AM »
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I also don't believe I ever cited that Nintendo fans "hated" online, so much as they seem to assume that because Nintendo doesn't pursue it that it doesn't matter.

I don't believe I said you did.  But they were attributed the notion that they "hated" online when most of them felt like you do about online gameplay, in that it didn't matter to them.  But lo and behold, that idea of "being ambivalent towards online" meant they must have hated it.

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I think Nintendo introducing motion controls before they had a controller that could actually do them right (via Wii Motion +) was a bad thing.  And actually, I believe I noted that while I agree with IGN's overall premise, I think they're going about it the wrong way because insulting your audience does not make for rational discussion.

They're not wizards, broodwars.  And besides this would be similar to saying it was bad for Sony and MS to make games all HD before most game companies could affordably offer them without jacking prices up.  You're basically complaining about something NOW when it can't be fixed without a time machine.  You're damning them for not having access to technology from the future in the past.  Why don't you go back to 1985 and tell Nintendo to not even bother with 2-D displays when if they wait 10 years, the technology will be available to make 3-D games?

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That does not mean that DLC is bad by its very nature, though, and has no place on a Nintendo system.

Well no it's not bad in theory, but in the real world its basically used to squeeze out more dollars from people who've already bought the game.  And who knows if this wasn't really the intention in the first place, merely disguised as a way to "add content" to a game.  It seems like the bell can't be unringed though, so I question if DLC was actually a good innovation since they haven't yet staffed game companies with perfect people and not capitalists.  And strangely, as profit-obsessed as Nintendo is made out to be, they haven't done much of this money-grubbing via DLC.  That's odd, you'd think that'd be the first thing they would have thought of.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #792 on: December 16, 2009, 12:18:06 PM »
They're not wizards, broodwars.  And besides this would be similar to saying it was bad for Sony and MS to make games all HD before most game companies could affordably offer them without jacking prices up.  You're basically complaining about something NOW when it can't be fixed without a time machine.  You're damning them for not having access to technology from the future in the past.  Why don't you go back to 1985 and tell Nintendo to not even bother with 2-D displays when if they wait 10 years, the technology will be available to make 3-D games?

Given that we saw Wii Motion + within 2 years of the Wii's launch makes me suspicious that Nintendo knew that the Wiimote was too imprecise when they launched the system.  Can you really tell me after all the work they put into revamping Twilight Princess for the Wii that they couldn't have possibly known that the best they could manage out of the Wiimote was waggle and pointing at the screen?  I have as much disdain for the Motion + as you do with DLC: I think Nintendo knew damn well their controller was inadequate, but released it anyway in the state it was because they knew they could get away with it.  Then they could just hit us up again a few years later with an accessory that makes the Wiimote do what it was supposed to do in the first place. 

So yeah, I'm going to damn them for likely releasing an unfinished product so they could slap a bandaid on it a year or two down the line for $20.  Meanwhile, because the controller is incapable of the accuracy and stability needed in non-casual gaming, motion control as a whole gets panned for being poor to mediocre (though in all fairness to Nintendo, the even worse SIXAXIS did its share of damage as well...possibly even more, considering such failures as "Lair".  But at least with the SIXAXIS when the motion control inevitably doesn't work it can still function as a standard controller.).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 12:48:15 PM by broodwars »
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Offline Stogi

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #793 on: December 16, 2009, 12:58:13 PM »
But it's not like their asking you to pay for M+. It comes free with the games that need it and also bundled with new systems and controllers.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #794 on: December 16, 2009, 01:03:51 PM »
But it's not like their asking you to pay for M+. It comes free with the games that need it and also bundled with new systems and controllers.

So far.  We'll see if that continues when Zelda comes out, which would be the first Motion + game I purchase.  I would add, though, that if Gamestop's listings are any indication you're still paying a fair amount extra for the Motion + in those bundles ($54.99 for a Wiimote + Motion+ compared to $39.99 without), so it's not like the things are free in those bundles.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #795 on: December 16, 2009, 01:20:44 PM »
Nintendo has already stated that they initially wanted M+ like functionality in the wiimote when it launched, but the tech was too expensive at the time. (The wiimote would have been really expensive)

What did you expect them to do? Delay the Wii? Release a GC 1.5 with an updated GC controller and release the wiimote later as an attachment (much like Natal or GEM)? Wii would have been a total disaster vs going with what they had, solid games based around what they had and wait for the tech that they wanted to become cheap enough to release as an add-on to expand on current capabilities.

Besides, even if M+ was put in right away, Wii still might have failed. Too much 1:1 right from the start might have made things too different and too complicated. It was best to use baby steps, not only for the end customer, but for the developers too.

Casuals like my mom probably never would have gotten into gaming if her every movement was tracked 1:1 instead of just a general swinging gesture. Nintendo handled the bump in control perfectly fine(could have been a little sooner) and to have done it in any different way could have ended up with much different results.

p.s. Gamestop has a $5 markup on all Nintendo accessories over other retailers and the MSRP.

Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #796 on: December 16, 2009, 01:31:32 PM »
*shrugs*

Hey, I don't pretend to have all the answers, though I do think Nintendo could have delayed the Wii up to a year if they wanted to (hell, while they were at it maybe they could have taken advantage of the lower costs of technology and beefed up the specs of the Wii Hardware).  We all know that Nintendo has turned a profit on every console they've put out, and the GC still had a shot in the arm left in the form of Twilight Princess.  It's not like the PS3 would have made much headway a year later, but of course that's in hindsight.

But also like I said, the inadequacies of the Wiimote only affect non-casual games, or in other words "most games not made by Nintendo."  And since Nintendo bet their farm on the casuals this generation, in the end it really didn't make a difference.  Sure, the 3rd parties couldn't do what they needed to do to make their games work on the system, but hey...what does Nintendo care so long as the latest Wii ____ game keeps selling by the truckload?  Well, at least in closing this rather long tangent Nintendo now possibly has worthy competition in the "motion control" field, so maybe now we'll finally see what they're capable of and gaming as a whole will benefit.

So yeah...how about that media?  ;)
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Offline rbtr

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #797 on: December 16, 2009, 01:42:03 PM »
Maybe they didn't put it out cause they could "get away with it", but rather because they couldn't afford not to.

Share holders probably didn't like the idea of "lets wait two years, while out competitors get more money, and while we continue to lose market, so that the tech is all the way there for this thing."  Nintendo was in a hole, it went into survival mode, and did what it does best, and innovated...to the best of it's ability.  There's deadlines on these things, I'm sure a lot of the design team would have loved to waited it out, and I'm MORE sure they would have loved to continue to feed their children.  So they did what they had to, and released the thing.  It didn't work out like it should have, so two year later they fix it for 20 bucks.  Would have rather they went ahead and put out a new console to fix it?  Or do you prefer the situation where we were playing gamecubes up until last July?  Or would you rather have the situation we have now?  I know none of them are ideal, but I think that where we're at is probably the best one.

Wario Land had some neat achievements.  So did Metroid.  I play a lot of games on steam, and they have achievements, it's kinda cool.  I like to check my community page occasionally and see that "oh, neat, he finally got hunter punter in l4d"  but it's no big.  I've never bragged about it, and nobody else has either...I hardly notice them.  I like that in team fortress 2, getting achievements unlock things.  The thing is, achievements lose meaning because people farm them...so it doesn't even matter.

Yeah, Wii online is kinda bogus.  But, tetris DS is one of my favorite games to play online, it's a faceless battle, but it's nice to know that I'm playing against a person.  Mario kart had good online, and let you bring a buddy, plus leader boards and stuff.  I usually play my Wii alone though, or with friends in the same room.  I don't expect a rigorous online experience out of any dedicated console, I expect that out of my PC.

DLC would be great if every game that used it followed Team Fortress 2's example, and let you have it for free.  In that the team continues to develop content even now, 2 years later, and gives it to you for free.  They make big events out of big updates, have free weekends, and get even more people to buy the game.  Valve takes the approach to "add new content, make more new customers, and word of mouth sells." vs. a lot of other developers who say "get money from current customers."  I also like Tripwire's approach in Killing Floor, where they have huge content updates for free, but make character skins you can buy for a couple of bucks.  They use the extra money from those to help fund more content updates.  In addition to free weekends, and word of mouth.  DLC can work, but most developers have the wrong mindset.  I think it's also more difficult to approach on a console.  Microsoft enforces rules to where you can't give stuff for free on the marketplace, so valve charges the bare minimum for its content updates.  Currently for tf2 they are just saving up the updates until they feel that it's fair to charge xbox users for it, putting them in one big pack.

HD games are pretty unimportant to me.  My housemate has a PS3 hooked up to his 1080p 32' LCD.  Most of the game only output 720p, and most the games don't even look that great.  Uncharted had great graphics, and the character animation in the second one was good, but I mean, it's a video game.  It was weird to see everything so realistically rendered and still have him do normal video game stuff.  Same with killzone, and metal gear solid.  For the type of game that the ps3/360 are trying to make it's important to them to have that horsepower behind them.  For the types of game that Nintendo is making on the Wii that horsepower just isn't as important.  Does Mario really NEED to be in 1080p with however many millions of polygons?  No, and I understand that it wouldn't hurt it, but it also doesn't really help it.  Most of the time I watch my roomie play PS3 games I just think about how completely uninterested in playing it, but how nice the pictures were.

Motion controls are WAAAAAAY more innovative than achievements, I'm not sure that I understand how this argument is even happening.

Just my two cents, probably wont argue any of this.  Because it's really just about whats important to you or me as a customer, and our expectations as a customer.  So I mean, I don't want a PS3 because I don't feel it does what I want it to as a customer.  And my Wii exceeded and fulfilled all of my customer expectations, which were "plays nintendo games so I can feel like a kid again".  My PC does everything else.

sorry, no tl;dr

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #798 on: December 16, 2009, 01:49:58 PM »
My attitude for DLC is simple.  If the new content is introduced long after the game's release it's acceptable.  It's no different than an expansion pack then.  The idea being that you've probably beaten the game already and you can buy these extra levels and such to extend the experience.  The company gets a purchase from you and you get more mileage out of your game.  It's good for everyone.  DLC is a rip-off scam when that content is available from DAY ONE.  That's not an expansion pack that's content that was already done when the game was released but they just chose to not include it unless you pay up.  It's the difference between in the pre-DLC world what would have been included in the game to begin with and what would have been an expansion pack or a cookie cutter sequel.

Regarding brainwashed Nintendo fans, every fanbase has the die-hards that never EVER see any wrong in the object of their fandom.  With Nintendo these are the fans that defend absolutely everything, love every product, and recite whatever the company line is at the present moment.  These are the fans whose opinion flip-flops if Nintendo's attitude towards something changes.  If you're a rational person and your opinion is along the same line as these people (you just arrived at that opinion in a different way) then they're fine.  But if you don't agree with them they're insufferable.

While IGN casting all Nintendo fans as being this kind of irrational fanatic is unfair I can see why one would make this assumption.  Right now Nintendo is at it's most controversial.  Yes they're making lots of money but there has never been such polarizing views regarding them.  Even in Nintendo's own fanbase there are split opinions. 

Here are hard facts
- Nintendo decided to target a more casual market this generation than they had in the past.
- The Wii hardware is significantly inferior to the other consoles.  Nintendo has publicly admitted they did this on purpose and that part of this was to make a profit off of the hardware sold.
- Nintendo has ported several Gamecube games to the Wii with motion controls.  These games were released during a time that no new Wii product was being released from Nintendo.
- The majority of third party games announced for the PS3 and Xbox 360 are never released for the Wii.
- After stating publicly that they hoped the Wii remote would be the "new controller standard" Nintendo released an add-on to their controller that improves it's functionality.
- The Wii does not support HDTVs.
- Online Wii games require the use of friend codes.

All of that stuff is true.  All of those could be used to support rational and logical criticism of the Wii and/or Nintendo themselves.  And yet it's pretty common to have people try to defend every single one of them.  I think the problem is Nintendo has put themselves in such a situation where there is too much criticism that can be made against them that really requires a leap of faith to defend.  That's going to drive rational fans away from the discussion and attract the mindless devotees.  So the die-hard defenders become the voice.  So when you criticize Nintendo now you get more doublethink "Nintendo is always right" crap.  And that just wears you out and you start to distance yourself from the fanbase and start to assume they're all brainwashed morons because a LOT of them are and the brainwashed morons are the first to jump to Nintendo's defense.

The less reasons you give people to criticize you the easier it is to defend you so you attract more rational people to your side.  The crazies also don't expose themselves as such as much because they too can defend you in a rational way without having to resort to huge leaps of logic to support their view.

The same thing happens with the other consoles.  Sony announces the orginal PS3 price and the Sony lunatics pop out of the woodwork to defend them while the rational Sony fans either jump ship, criticize the company they're a fan of, or keep their mouths shut because they can't defend it.  If something can't be defended in a rational or logical way then only the brainwashed morons will come forward to defend it.

Offline King of Twitch

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #799 on: December 16, 2009, 02:12:17 PM »
You forgot to mention the remote is a useless waggle gimmick that has never accomplished anything other than destroying gaming forever.
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