Topic: Game Journalism

[Kairon]

Interesting that you would say that just a little over a week before Heavy Rain comes out on the PS3, and if that isn't an "Indie film" game I don't know what is. 

I know right! GAH!

And FLOW should have been on Wii too! And Little Big Planet!

[Stogi]

The only thing that makes me sad and kinda pissed off is the lack of ingenuity. If I were a full-time artist, and I had been solely working with a mouse to draw things in Photoshop, imagine my excitement to learn about a digital pad and pen. Now if I were a videogame designer, who has only been working with buttons and sticks, you could only imagine my excitement to learn about the Wiimote. I would have probably **** myself the first time Nintendo invited me to play WiiSports. I wouldn't think about graphics or consoles or marketing or competition; I would think to myself "this is going to change everything." Then I would start working on the possibilities.

Too bad the industry isn't me.

[broodwars]

Interesting that you would say that just a little over a week before Heavy Rain comes out on the PS3, and if that isn't an "Indie film" game I don't know what is. 

I know right! GAH!

And FLOW should have been on Wii too! And Little Big Planet!

Don't forget Flower and Mod Nation Racers.     Though to be fair, MNR and LBP are incredibly reliant on the community aspect, something Nintendo has completely shunned with the Wii.  I don't know if those games could thrive being offline only or using the incredibly meager online of something like Smash Bros. Brawl's stage creator.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The only thing that makes me sad and kinda pissed off is the lack of ingenuity. If I were a full-time artist, and I had been solely working with a mouse to draw things in Photoshop, imagine my excitement to learn about a digital pad and pen. Now if I were a videogame designer, who has only been working with buttons and sticks, you could only imagine my excitement to learn about the Wiimote. I would have probably **** myself the first time Nintendo invited me to play WiiSports. I wouldn't think about graphics or consoles or marketing or competition; I would think to myself "this is going to change everything." Then I would start working on the possibilities.

Too bad the industry isn't me.

Everyone is more focused on photorealistic graphics over intuitive and engaging gameplay. We'll just have to wait and see what happens with Arc to see what happens when they get to have their motion and graphics so that they might finally care enough to put forth the effort.

[UncleBob]

So... We don't make blockbuster games for the Wii because the fanbase of blockbuster games isn't on the Wii.  We know that because blockbuster games don't sell on the Wii.  We know that because we haven't made any blockbuster games on the Wii for them to buy.  And why make them if no one's going to buy them?

Gotcha.

[Kairon]

So... We don't make blockbuster games for the Wii because the fanbase of blockbuster games isn't on the Wii.  We know that because blockbuster games don't sell on the Wii.  We know that because we haven't made any blockbuster games on the Wii for them to buy.  And why make them if no one's going to buy them?

Gotcha.

Nintendo fans thought they had finally broken the catch-22 cycle of third parties this generation. Turns out, they haven't.

[Stratos]

edit: Stratos, how can you consider MW[reflex] a blockbuster? When has a blockbuster movie ever gotten a quiet release under the blanket of it's sequels release? MW2 on the HD systems was a Blockbuster title as it got the blockbuster advertising and marketing that it needed. MW[reflex] got no such treatment.

I thought we were talking about blockbuster games, not whether or not the publishers treated them like blockbusters should be treated.

[Ymeegod]

1.  Why you don't see my online WII shooters?  Because Big N really doesn't support online much at all the vast majority of WII owners don't bother with even connecting.  This isn't a new problem but this was happening even on the GC (I'm still waiting for those 25 online titles big n:0).  Nintendo really should just copy what MS and Sony's doing for online services.  If the wheels not broken then it doesn't need to be fix.

Mature titles never sell well on Nintendo systems--True Crime (GTA clone on the GC) didn't sell so that's why you don't sell any GTA port even on the WII.  Did Rockstar studios try the WII?  Yeah they did release Manhunt 2 and Bully but neither titles sold so why would they bother trying to make another one?  Fail twice but third's time the charm? 

You can't possible expect publishers to spend millions of dollars where's there's no market for it.  Big N doesn't have to develope the games but could support 3rd parties more.  Easy way--Demo disks, well they had extra space on their own game discs so you could imagine how much sales would increased for a game if a demo was packaged inside a game like NSMB which hit 10million ww+.  Granted some might not even the demo but even if 10% did and 1 out of 10 bought the game from the demo that's 100K sales just based on that. 

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[UncleBob]

edit: Stratos, how can you consider MW[reflex] a blockbuster? When has a blockbuster movie ever gotten a quiet release under the blanket of it's sequels release? MW2 on the HD systems was a Blockbuster title as it got the blockbuster advertising and marketing that it needed. MW[reflex] got no such treatment.

I thought we were talking about blockbuster games, not whether or not the publishers treated them like blockbusters should be treated.

But that's part (just part) of the problem.  Could you imagine if Modern Warfare 2 had been released with the advertising and fanfare of, say, Silent Hill?

Ymeegod:
True Crime?  Really?  I'm pretty sure both versions sold pretty crappy on all systems.

It's easy to psh-saw the idea that mature games don't sell on Nintendo systems... unless you look at the fact that there's never really been a big-budget, polished, mature game that's gotten the advertising thrown behind it that GTA and Co. get.

[Kairon]

The BEST way Nintendo could help third parties is by creating a better way for third parties to dialogue with actual active Wii owners.

My belief is that third parties are still reliant on a last-gen infrastructure of proactive gamers with an entire lifetime of ingrained knowledge, traditionalist and enthusiast media, and marketing styles that are best suited to the 18-25 year old demographic. These things don't exist, or aren't as present, on the Wii, and thus there's less ability to communicate third party messages, advertising, and presentation to Wii owners. Conversely, and just as big if not a BIGGER problem, is that there's also less opportunity for Wii owners to give meaningful, constructive feedback to developers on things they value, are knowledgeable of, or honestly couldn't care less for.

Until this dialogue can happen in a more powerful and consistent manner, everyone's just working on assumptions and guesswork. Well, except for Nintendo. Nintendo has for a long time been trying to talk to consumers who have exceeded the molds and stereotypes the world has set for us gamers.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I actually think a demo disc packed in with a game like NSMBW, Zelda or WiiFit+ would be an excellent idea.

It would be nice of Nintendo to do something like that, but it would also help if 3rd parties bothered to advertise their games even a little bit.
If a company Like R* is wondering if a game like GTA would sell on the Wii, then they shouldn't release Manhunt and Bully, they should release GTA. No better way to guage the interest for a GTA game than by releasing a GTA game.
Manhunt 2 & Bully didn't even sell all that great on the PS2, so it's hardly the best way to test the waters.

[UncleBob]

Bully and Manhunt2 - two more PS2 titles ported over for the Wii.  At *least* Manhunt was released concurrently.

How come no one looks at Bully's sales on the 360 and says "Well, Gee!  This game sold like crap on the 360 - I guess 360 gamers don't like mature games!"

[Ymeegod]

The reason why I picked True Crimes is because there'e was hype and marketing for it and was an exclusive title--it was ported later to the PS2.  MGS Twin Snakes then?  It had the brand name and marketting team from nintendo, yet the game didn't sell. 

Kinda shocking to see a seqeul to S&P2 and that new IP, Zangeki.  Hopefully they decide to port these titles stateside because these titles might convert more hardcore gamers to the WII. 

---------------------------------------------
Bully on the xbox 360 outsold the WII 2 to 1.  Bully sold just under an million on the 360 which is quite good for a late port. 
 



 

[UncleBob]

Which TC are you saying was an exclusive?  AFAIR, each title was released at the same time on PS2/XBox/GCN.

As for marketing - not sure I recall seeing any TV ads for it - am I alone?
I still remember GTAIII TV ads.

With Twin Snakes, you get a remake of a PS1 game.  A good game, if a little buggy at places.  Released (delayed until) Mid-2004.  I'd bet if you released GTA3 on the 360 for full price, it'd probably sell similar numbers.

[Mop it up]

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think that Guitar Hero or Rock Band would fall under the category of "blockbuster" game. In fact, I think they are a great example of what sells well on Wii. They are simple concept games that are easy to understand and pick up and play without much instruction. The main reason for this is the guitar controller. Everyone knows how to play a guitar, even if they lack the musical talent and/or finger dexterity to actually do so. A guitar is something that everyone is familiar with, and playing Guitar Hero is already something that everyone knows how to do.

Nintendo found similar success with Mario Kart Wii and the packaged Wii Wheel accessory. It seems a lot of long-time game players hated the wheel and called it inaccurate, but it wasn't designed for them. It is for people who find the traditional controller intimidating. A steering wheel is something that pretty much everyone is familiar with and knows how to use, so no instruction is necessary. Everyone already gets it. This, I believe, is the majority of the type of audience who purchased Guitar Hero and Rock Band on Wii.

Is Metroid Prime 3 a "blockbuster" game? It is "huge, expansive, and immersive," which was how Lindy described games on the PS360. It sold 1.5 million copies (right?). The Metroid Prime Trilogy contained three of this type of game and sold even worse. Compare that to the best-sellers on Wii, and the best-sellers on other systems, and that number doesn't match up. It is a high-quality, well-reviewed, marketed, and Nintendo-published title, so none of the grab bag of excuses for low sales can really apply. This is a game which should have sold to everyone who had an interest in a "blockbuster" type game, and, well, I believe that it did.

There are a few other examples I can think of which might qualify. Batallion Wars II from Nintendo as well, and the aforementioned-by-Broodwars Fire Emblem. No More Heroes and The Conduit come to mind. None of these were million sellers.

[NWR_insanolord]

It's not important why this is happening; what's important is how to fix it, and I'm not sure it's possible to fix it. The only thing that might work is Nintendo getting in there and doing something about it, but they're in no position to care about it. Their games are selling and the hardware's doing record numbers, so they don't need to care about third parties.

[UncleBob]

There are a few other examples I can think of which might qualify. Batallion Wars II from Nintendo as well, and the aforementioned-by-Broodwars Fire Emblem. No More Heroes and The Conduit come to mind. None of these were million sellers.

I missed the advertising for those games.
The fact that MPT, BWii and FE sold... lackluster numbers shows that even Nintendo games aren't necessarily mega-sellers.

No one has yet to answer why Nintendo wasted money on TV ads for NSMBWii when it was going to sell with or without ads.

It's not important why this is happening; what's important is how to fix it, and I'm not sure it's possible to fix it.

That's like saying it isn't important to figure out why everyone's getting lung cancer, we just need to fix it... Without knowing that everyone's getting lung cancer because they smoke, how are we supposed to know to tell them to stop smoking?

Figuring out what is causing the error is the first step to fixing it.  Basic computer programming.  Basic life skills.

[Mop it up]

I missed the advertising for those games.
The fact that MPT, BWii and FE sold... lackluster numbers shows that even Nintendo games aren't necessarily mega-sellers.

Why aren't they mega-sellers? Is it not even a possibility that the games didn't sell because there isn't much of an audience for them? Is advertising the end-all, be-all for game sales? Why does Mario Kart Wii continue to sell despite that the only advertising which took place was at launch?

No one has yet to answer why Nintendo wasted money on TV ads for NSMBWii when it was going to sell with or without ads.

Why is Coca-Cola still advertised when everyone knows what it is? Advertisements aren't just about product awareness, they are also about keeping a product on your mind. Also, I'm curious, why do you feel that New Super Mario Brothers Wii would sell itself without advertising, but the other games I mentioned needed more advertising?

[UncleBob]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think advertising is the end-all solution to third party woes...  But it's a big part of it.

Mario sells on the red cap alone.  Branding.  Anyone who's played a video game has played some kind of Mario game in their life.  Metroid, Fire Emblem, Battalion Wars - you can't say the same thing about those.  Now, I'm not naive enough to think a few commercials would have boosted Fire Emblem to NSMBWii-like numbers - but you can't throw a no-name product out on the shelves and expect it to sell.

Going back to branding - Silent Hill isn't much of a brand.  Madworld isn't a brand.  No More Heroes isn't a brand.  But that little SEGA, UBIsoft or EA logo on the package - that *IS* a brand.

So, just like seeing Mario and associating him with all the fun Mario games you've played, a lesser-educated consumer is going to see RandomGameX, not recognize anything about it except for that company logo plastered on the front and remember playing a few previous Wall Of Shame titles and skip that title.  Even if they hear how great the game is later, they've already spent their entertainment budget on another game (or something else altogether).

[Mop it up]

People who don't follow games (which I'd assume is the majority of the Wii userbase) wouldn't know a new Mario game is out unless they saw it somewhere. They might not browse the games section very often, or very closely, so they needed a little push to see the game was released. That was the purpose of the advertising. The red case may play a part in this as well, as people probably noticed the red case on the shelves and took a closer look at what game it was.

If brand name matters, why didn't everyone buy up Nintendo titles like ExciteBots, Punch-Out!!, Wario Land Shake It!, and others? Every game they bought from Nintendo has been quality, so there should be no doubt that these, too, are well-crafted games. It seems more likely that the consumer base simply isn't very interested in these types of games.

Metroid Prime 3, Battalion Wars II, No More Heroes, The Conduit, and MadWorld all had hype and/or advertising that I remember, plus generally favourable reviews. Fire Emblem and ExciteBots were pretty much shipped out alone, though. However, ExciteBots was packaged with a Wii Wheel, the same marketing gimmick used for Mario Kart Wii. I just find it a little coincidental that all of these titles would post relatively low sales due to variables like advertising. The simple answer here is that there isn't much of an audience for them, and the simplest answer is often the correct one.

[Kairon]

I think it is important to recognize that some games by virtue of what they are should be construed as more or less niche nowadays... *sniff* Poor Shenmue, game I have never played...

[KDR_11k]

You know, when the Wii came out there was this FPS called Red Steel that sold a million despite severely lackluster quality. Why the **** didn't third parties look at that and think "if a shitty FPS can sell a million, a good one can sell truckloads"?

[UncleBob]

If brand name matters, why didn't everyone buy up Nintendo titles like ExciteBots, Punch-Out!!, Wario Land Shake It!, and others? Every game they bought from Nintendo has been quality, so there should be no doubt that these, too, are well-crafted games. It seems more likely that the consumer base simply isn't very interested in these types of games.

The Nintendo logo on a package means very little to an uninformed consumer.  Because every single (legitimate) game for every Nintendo system ever has had the Nintendo logo on it somewhere or another.  If it had been Mario Land: Shake It!, I bet it would have sold tons.

Metroid Prime 3, Battalion Wars II, No More Heroes, The Conduit, and MadWorld all had hype and/or advertising that I remember, plus generally favourable reviews. Fire Emblem and ExciteBots were pretty much shipped out alone, though. However, ExciteBots was packaged with a Wii Wheel, the same marketing gimmick used for Mario Kart Wii. I just find it a little coincidental that all of these titles would post relatively low sales due to variables like advertising. The simple answer here is that there isn't much of an audience for them, and the simplest answer is often the correct one.
[/quote]
The only one of those titles I recall seeing a commercial for was Metriod Prime 3 (which didn't sell that horribly, if I recall - I thought the Metroid discussion revolved around the Trilogy, which was released to die).  As for reviews, I thought we've covered that in this thread - most consumers don't read reviews.

[UncleBob]

According to Nintendo, in March, 2008, Metroid Prime 3 had sold 1.31 Million Units.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2008/080425e.pdf (Page 6).

What's considered a good seller now-a-days?

[UncleBob]

Triple Post:
To anyone puzzled by the idea that proper advertising can help sell a game, to you I say "Every puzzle has an answer!"

Think you got it?