Author Topic: Game Journalism  (Read 127561 times)

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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #275 on: February 09, 2010, 02:48:31 PM »
Oh Andy, you couldn't leave well enough alone, could you?
Not to mention he got it all wrong.

Many of us own plenty of 3rd party games, but it's only because we are informed enough to not shop the she shelves in the aisle at Target or TRU looking for something that looks cool that we don't end up with crap title after crap title and lose 100% faith in anything that doesn't say "made by Nintendo", have Wii in the title of the game or have a picture of Mario on the cover.

If you were standing infront of that Wall in the aisle of TRU/Walmart/Target/etc. and knew nothing of any of those titles, since none of them have been advertised, then threw a dart to decide which one you were gonna get, chances are that 19 out of 20 times you are gonna end up with some poor excuse for a game that never should have been made and/or sold at full price. That alone is enough to make you a jaded gamer and only stick to what you know will be worth your time and money.

That is why 3rd parties are having a hard time on the Wii. We "hardcores" can't support the good games on our own when they don't even give us the games we want 85% of the time. Just because they put in some effort and popped out a game of quality doesn't mean that is the game I should want and am forced to buy it either. When we are told that we are getting a new entry in the RE series, we don't expect a rail shooter spin off, the same goes even more so for a much lesser know game like Dead Space.

When the Wii gamers say they want something that's like WiiSports, they didn't mean a cheap lazy knock off with all the same sports but crappier controls and less polished graphics. They meant something that made good use of Wii Controls over fun, but varied situations. And it surely wasn't meant to make an entire game off of one gimmicky use of the waggle and slap a license on it to get name recognition and charge $50 for it.

As far as HD is concerned.... who said we don't want HD? we would love HD, it's just that HD doesn't make or break the gameplay. Games like SSBB and SMG would look beautiful in HD and I;m sure most of us look forward to the day when the Wii2 comes out and we can go back and see all those games bumped up in resolution, but it's not gonna suddenly take a game like The Conduit and all of a sudden make it a better game.

So it's sad to say that it looks like Drew's overly simplified insight was overly wrong.
No one is rooting for 3rd party failure, we want them to stop doing the things that are causing them to fail and get their **** together. Wii gamers are not some sub-sect of gamer who enjoys over simplified waggle games with $10 budgets and no care whatsoever put into it. We want real games, just like the games they make for the HD systems, which are just like the games they made for all the systems last gen and the gen before that.

Offline Arbok

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #276 on: February 09, 2010, 02:52:07 PM »
Nintendo made the Wii for themselves, not third parties.  Nintendo is relatively indifferent to third parties, and in return third parties are relatively indifferent towards Nintendo.

Then third parties should make more of an effort. If the Chinese government is indifferent or hard to work with, should companies avoid or act meagerly toward this market? No, and nor are they because they see the large base of consumers with growing disposable income. Third parties should be the same way with the Wii. They need to take the initiative.

Sony and Microsoft are better at courting third parties, and could be argued are getting more of a reward from them. That said, the bottom line should be the most important thing, not the easiest road, and far too many of these publishers come across as simply not having the initiative that they need in a market where Nintendo is #1 again.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #277 on: February 09, 2010, 02:52:25 PM »
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As far as "understanding" the Wii audience, I'm not even entirely sure NINTENDO understands the Wii audience, considering games like Excitebots have failed at retail just like some of the third party games we're talking about.

Well then why do third parties continue to act like Nintendo's got a secret line in to their customers if even Nintendo doesn't know?  And why does Nintendo not throw a PR temper tantrum when they do have a titles that fails?

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Where's the outrage over that?

Nintendo didn't blame us...?

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And rather, it's not that I'm surprised that you're upset that third parties seem to make mistake after mistake, but when this thread reached it's ELEVENTH page in about a week, the tone goes from "sour grapes" to absolutely enraged.

It's obviously a hot button issue that isn't going away.  People are rightfully enraged at being blamed for third party games selling poorly when they make awful games, when they make spinoff games in lieu of real effort, poorly market them, and blame Nintendo, Wii Owners, and the economy instead of their obviously crummy games.

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If this community was really thirsting for a AAA 3rd party Wii game, then they'd be too busy playing Silent Hill to get this thread to 11 pages in the course of 10 days.  Once again, I maintain that they don't really want any game that doesn't fit into Nintendo's ideology, which is almost every third party title out there not named EA Sports Active.

Apparently Nintendo's ideology is wide enough to Include Wii Sports, Wi Fit, Zelda, Mario Galaxy, NSMBWii, SSBB, Resident Evil 4, and Metroid.  All of which have performed similar or better than EA Sports Active (And definitely better than the Sequel).

this thread isn't about isolating a single good game and saying "aha!  That redeems them."  This whole thread started because of PR from third parties blaming Nintendo, Wii, and its owners for poor sales, and Pro just thought he'd analyze all the third party libraries and see who actually has a legitimate complaint.  Who did the best with their brandnames and who created the best environment for their games to sell.  Naturally, nobody really did other than Nintendo.  While it is nice that, for a few titles, they may have deigned to pay attention, but their flood of shovelware definitely factors into why they underperformed.

Nintendo obviously, doesn't have that problem, because they've made good games the whole time.  Even their "worst" titles, even the ones labeled the most "casual" are leagues ahead of most of the third parties' crap.

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Who CARES about the shovelware?  EVERY system has shovelware.  It's our job as a website, and your job as a gamer who cares about playing unique original titles, to filter through it and point out what is worth playing.

3rd parties should care about shovelware.  They're ruined their brandnames in front of the largest audience making any effort they make meet with suspicion, and their shovelware didn't sell to boot.  And it's not my "Job" To MAKE the third parties' games a success.  They have to make good games first.  Why is it all on the gamer, again?

EDIT
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This situation is what Nintendo wants, because it ensures theyget the lion's share of all software sales on the console (as well asraking it in on the hardware sales side).  With all the buddingbusiness mavens on these boards, why is anybody complaining?  This issimply good business.

Nitnendo doesn't just have the best software sales on the Wii.  They have the best software sales, period.  I also think we're not so concerned with Nintendo.  They'll be fine (Boy will they.)  We're more concerned with the third parties' business rationale for flooding the Wii with crap nobody wanted or bought while saying the whole tiem that they do.  Shareholders for these companies are probably screaming at them right now, especially after Nintendo broke the one month console record in December.  Nintendo looks good, as always.  They look like chumps and idiots.

Besides, Nintendo gets royalties for third party games too.  It is good business to try and get them on board as well.  And Nintendo thought they had it with an excitable product, an insanely large userbase, and easy development.  But third parties turned on the floodgates, threw pity parties when the "casual Wii owners" strangely stopped buying all their casual shovelware.  It's not really what Nintendo wanted, but it ended up that way and Nintendo didn't have to do a thing other than leave Third parties to make the games they wanted to (garbage) and Nintendo to continue to make quality games That people buy in droves.  Apparently making good games is good business.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 03:06:16 PM by Deguello »
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #278 on: February 09, 2010, 03:19:30 PM »
Everybody on this thread needs to go out and get Tatsunoko VS. Capcom, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, and pick up Monster Hunter Tri when it comes out.
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Offline D_Average

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #279 on: February 09, 2010, 03:22:33 PM »
Ultimately the Wii is Nintendo's system. If they didn't want such an enormous wall of shovelware they could have certainely implemented stricter standards for releasing a game on THEIR system. We've seen crap games before but what you see in the Wii aisle today at Walmart is unprecedented and beyond rediculous. Third parties have indeed been lazy but Nintendo certainely isn't without blame either. Manage your product.
 
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #280 on: February 09, 2010, 03:26:44 PM »
Better yet, market it, package it, and create games for it in such a way that doesn't alienate every non-Nintendo-fanboy gamer over the age of 12.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #281 on: February 09, 2010, 03:30:38 PM »
Put simply, Nintendo fans don't want third party games.

We don't want on-rails games!

We don't want shovelware!

We don't want HD games!

We don't like the color brown!


Any developer that doesn't line up with Nintendo's disruption strategy is seen as the enemy, and you actively root for their failure with threads like this.

Your logic train completely missed the station.

The Expanded Audience (and fresh new younger-crowd customers) is the majority on Wii, outnumbering the nintards.  Assuming they weren't Nintendo regulars to begin with, your fanboy checklist doesn't even apply.  So excluding the nintards, there's still a vast audience 3rd Parties are attempting to sell to.

3rd Parties didn't proactively attempt to attract the existing Nintendo fans ("we don't get Wii gameplay;" "we won't assign our best devs on Wii projects;" "we won't spend PS2/Xbox era top-dollars on Wii projects;" "have another rail shooter;" "how did you hear about our gamey gamer's game? our fantastic non-marketing campaign?;" "we can't compete with Nintendo, let's not compete with Nintendo, sp let's pull a fast one on the customers who are still unaware") and they dumped casual tardware on the Expanded Audience 4 holiday seasons in a row.  The nintards haven't budged, but the remaining audience has had more than enough time to figure out it's better to stick to Nintendo than be deceived by 3rd Party assware (*feel sorry for those who bought consecutive duds).  Brand loyalty towards Nintendo is built up, and 3rd Parties get blacklisted (... creating new Nintendo fans?).

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If this community was really thirsting for a AAA 3rd party Wii game, then they'd be too busy playing Silent Hill to get this thread to 11 pages in the course of 10 days.

Who CARES about the shovelware?  EVERY system has shovelware.  It's our job as a website, and your job as a gamer who cares about playing unique original titles, to filter through it and point out what is worth playing.

If the visitors got Silent Hill, they would've beaten it in 2 days, 2 months ago (and I've played it 3 times, anecdote FTW!); plenty of time left to visit this thread.  Most (Wii) customers, I assume cuz there's so many of them, don't actively seek the info provided by the enthusiast press.  Therefore, it's still the 3rd Party's job to advertise/differentiate whatever it is they call their "best" products.  But they don't.  GOOD FOR THEM!  THEY SAVE $$$.  THOSE UNSOPHISTICATED NON-BUYERS DON'T KNOW THEY'RE MISSING OUT (WTF how could you stand by and let them "not know"?).  3rd Parties won't attract the nintards, sure, but they won't attempt to attract fresh new customers?

Nintendo made the Wii for themselves, not third parties.  Nintendo is relatively indifferent to third parties, and in return third parties are relatively indifferent towards Nintendo.

This situation is what Nintendo wants, because it ensures they get the lion's share of all software sales on the console (as well as raking it in on the hardware sales side).  With all the budding business mavens on these boards, why is anybody complaining?  This is simply good business.

Good business on Nintendo's side -- does that mean 3rd Parties have been content with BAD BUSINESS all this time?

3rd Parties expressed financial "disappointment" HURT and placed blame on Nintendo, Wii, and the smarter-than-they-originally-thought customers (and no longer "the recession"), as if they expect us to believe they TRIED (HAH!).  That is NOT indifference, and we're not letting it slide.
 
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Ultimately the Wii is Nintendo's system. If they didn't want such an enormous wall of shovelware they could have certainely implemented stricter standards for releasing a game on THEIR system. We've seen crap games before but what you see in the Wii aisle today at Walmart is unprecedented and beyond rediculous. Third parties have indeed been lazy but Nintendo certainely isn't without blame either. Manage your product.

Third parties have released what they wanted to splooge.  When Nintendo makes it harder for them to defecate, for whatever reason, they leave.  (thus royalties plummet)
 
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #282 on: February 09, 2010, 03:35:34 PM »
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Ultimately the Wii is Nintendo's system.

NOW it is.

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If they didn't want such an enormous wall of shovelware they could have certainely implemented stricter standards for releasing a game on THEIR system.

Oohhh No.  They already did that back in the NES days.   Third parties hated that with a passion and everybody called them tyrants.  And What the hell, third aprties will make awful games by default?  How pathetic are they?  Jeez.

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We've seen crap games before but what you see in the Wii aisle today at Walmart is unprecedented and beyond rediculous.

That's the thread's point.  It is ridiculous.  But still, I usually see Nintendo's games all lumped in one case and all the "other" stuff in another.  Evidently most shoppers just skip over the "other" case and go right tot he good stuff.

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Third parties have indeed been lazy but Nintendo certainely isn't without blame either.

How so?  Did Nintendo point a gun at their heads and force them to make their awful games?

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Manage your product.

They do.  That's why their sales haven't fallen while third parties' have.  Since nobody really buys the shovelware, people only remember Nintendo's good games.  And even so, they don't have to keep shovelware out of Walmarts and Targets anymore.  They've already said "no mas" to the shovelware.  (Because it doesn't sell.  Imagine that.)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 03:38:17 PM by Deguello »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #283 on: February 09, 2010, 03:40:08 PM »
This is NOT what Nintendo wants because it forces them to sustain the Wii's momentum all by themselves and any mistake like Christmas 2008 will massively hurt the Wii. Sony and MS can pretty much coast while third parties do all the work for them. Nintendo would at least benefit from the safety blanket of multiple companies supplying the system with great games to keep it interesting even when Nintendo itself cannot provide at the moment.

Everybody on this thread needs to go out and get Tatsunoko VS. Capcom, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, and pick up Monster Hunter Tri when it comes out.

Does having SHSM on preorder because it's not released here yet count? I really want the game but it's still over a week away.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #284 on: February 09, 2010, 03:48:51 PM »
Everybody on this thread needs to go out and get Tatsunoko VS. Capcom, Silent Hill: Shattered Memories, and pick up Monster Hunter Tri when it comes out.

have the 1st 2 and getting the 3rd(w/ Black CCPro).
TvC is my most played game right now and I've only played SH up until the cabin in the woods(30min).

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #285 on: February 09, 2010, 03:54:30 PM »
I'm just saying, if you're going to complain about third parties, support the third party games that are the product of effort.  Heck, Capcom actually ADDED functionality to TvC and MHTri for their Western release.  Nobody does that.

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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #286 on: February 09, 2010, 03:57:33 PM »
TvC would be alot more rewarding if the ending weren't so crappy.
My Wii collection has to be nearing the balance of the industry right now
55% Nintendo and 45% everyone else.
I think I have around 30 or so games for the Wii.

And the only games I would have even considered being regretful of buying were 3rd party games, but I'm not all that regretful since I didn't pay full price for them.

edit:
3rd parties have to realize that they are competing for our dollar, and therefore need to make games that we want to spend out dollar on. They can't expect us to want to spend our dollar on games they want us to buy just because they put effort into it.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 04:25:07 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline that Baby guy

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #287 on: February 09, 2010, 04:15:15 PM »
I don't like thriller games.  I'm not buying Silent Hill, because I wouldn't buy Silent Hill if I had other platforms.

I buy games I like, regardless of publisher.  That includes TvC, and will probably include Monster Hunter, but Silent Hill isn't my cup of tea.

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #288 on: February 09, 2010, 04:20:10 PM »
I'm just saying, if you're going to complain about third parties, support the third party games that are the product of effort.

We've been doing that all along.  Has it helped?  Hold on while I double check this thread to see...


No.  It has not.

Offline Kairon

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #289 on: February 09, 2010, 04:22:25 PM »
If more people had bought Far Cry Vengeance when it came out on the Wii... *sigh*
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Offline D_Average

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #290 on: February 09, 2010, 04:29:09 PM »
@Pro
Did I say royalties wouldn't change?  Nope. Not sure where you came up with that absurd assertion. If you release fewer games royalties go down, obviously.

My point was simple. No one is forcing Nintendo to allow crappy or even broken games on their console. 
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #291 on: February 09, 2010, 04:41:04 PM »
TvC would be alot more rewarding if the ending weren't so crappy.

Finding out what kind of nonsense you get as an ending is almost a bigger reward than the unlocks for beating arcade mode!

Offline Kairon

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #292 on: February 09, 2010, 04:42:33 PM »
@Pro
Did I say royalties wouldn't change?  Nope. Not sure where you came up with that absurd assertion. If you release fewer games royalties go down, obviously.

My point was simple. No one is forcing Nintendo to allow crappy or even broken games on their console. 

In Nintendo's defense, they must have been desperate to reverse the situation last generation where the GameCube was seeing so little third-party support. They sought to rectify it by removing many barriers to development on their consoles, which sounds like it included removing a stringent game concept approval process (a type of process that I've heard killed PS2 2D titles on the drawing board).
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #293 on: February 09, 2010, 04:47:21 PM »
@Pro
Did I say royalties wouldn't change?  Nope. Not sure where you came up with that absurd assertion. If you release fewer games royalties go down, obviously.

My point was simple. No one is forcing Nintendo to allow crappy or even broken games on their console. 
But you forget (as has already been mentioned) that Nintendo used to do that. Limit the amount of releases a company can have in a certain year to make sure they went with quality over quantity.

3rd parties got around that by making shell companies/subsidiaries to release those games for them. I believe that how Ultra games had come to be way back in the day.

Shovelware is part of the game and Nintendo isn't gonna stop them from making it. 3rd parties do more harm to themselves with all that crap than to Nintendo as evidenced by the record and bank breaking profits.

I'm sure Nintendo would love to see 3rd parties thriving on the Wii since it would help seal market dominance and marketshare, but they aren't exactly crying over it at this point. Also doesn't mean they aren't actively trying to fix it either though.

Offline Deguello

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #294 on: February 09, 2010, 04:51:24 PM »
Quote
My point was simple. No one is forcing Nintendo to allow crappy or even broken games on their console. 

Are third parties little children?  I mean we are talking THE MAJOR PLAYERS here.  EA, Activision, UBISoft, even Capcom and Sega.  This is the defense of them you want to use?  That third parties are so inept that their default programming is ****?  So far the only people hurt by releasing shovelware are the third parties reputations and bottom lines.  So sorry that they chose to release awful games, but that's nothing Nintendo's responsible for just because they took a hands-off approach to third parties and let them make what they wanted to make.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #295 on: February 09, 2010, 04:54:07 PM »
Third parties are and have been capable of making great games across genres and platforms and time periods. It's just the question of how. On the Wii, you could argue that they lack skillsets, information, and value-models that would help them in other situations where they've been more successful.
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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #296 on: February 09, 2010, 04:58:47 PM »
Look, Dead Space Extraction was a great game. It's in my Top 3 for the year, seriously. EA didn't market it and Nintendo didn't give two craps about it and, honestly, the light-gun market is kind of flooded already. As a result, it sold extremely poorly.

That says nothing of its QUALITY. It is a QUALITY product, and I urge you all to check it out. Another game I bought and love: Let's Tap, though I'm struggling to find a "perfect box." Would you consider that to be "shovelware?" It's incredibly simplistic and experimental, but I think it's a quality product--I have a good time with it.

I think the core problem here is that when it comes to almost all 3rd party games and even some 1st party games (*cough*Excitebots*cough*), consumers are being forced to do the research themselves or rely exclusively on box art and price points. That's not fair. Third parties are actively supporting the console, but nobody is throwing money at the PR situation. Thus, Dead Space Extraction sells extremely poorly, despite its quality.

I didn't read the whole thread up until this, so maybe I'm repeating points already made...
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #297 on: February 09, 2010, 05:05:45 PM »
you are kinda, but no big deal.

I vouch for DSE, but it's not a $50 game. It was fun, flawed and should have released at $30.

Shovelware is something I classify as a "game" that was thrown together on a shoestring budget (sometimes with a license attached) just to put something on the shelves that they know is no good, but might sell enough copies to make a profit.

And we've all come to the agreement that advertising is a major issue as to why 3rd parties (and some 1st party games) have sold horribly.
Other times, it's just because they made a game that we didn't want, regardless of the quality of the product, which is why it didn't sell. *coughDSEcough*
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 05:09:03 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline Arbok

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #298 on: February 09, 2010, 05:09:52 PM »
Thus, Dead Space Extraction sells extremely poorly, despite its quality.

Dead Space was going up against Resident Evil. EA made a huge mistake by doing that. I already had Umbrella Chronicles, and while I did want one more rail shooter for my collection (and only one) Capcom already had my dollar reserved with their next offering. For many, one rail shooter was enough. EA didn't stand a chance and should have had that foresight.

Hell, I even bought Dead Space Extraction (once it went on sale) for my sister, and she still has yet to open it because Darkside is still keeping her busy. Even to rail shooter fans, it's timing was poor, but really that genre is dead (or really has always been dead, the Wii only breathed some minor life into it temporarily) going by recent sales of other titles there.
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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #299 on: February 09, 2010, 05:13:34 PM »
No, I don't think DSE should have EVER been $50 (it was $50?!). Maybe $40 at its initial launch, drop to $30 a month or two later. I got it for free, so...yeah.

That's another problem this generation: price inflation. It's ridiculous that HD games cost $60 a goddamn pop, but what's worse is that consumers support it. I wait until inevitable price drops, and I think a lot of other people do to, but not nearly enough to drop the initial price across the board. And quite simply, a lot of Wii games should not be $50 or even $40 at launch. If third parties want to sell games, they should market the damn things, and maybe make the price more attractive at launch.
 
@Arbok: Yeah, I have the same problem going into Darkside, too. They came out like two months apart, and Darkside was certainly the "better gamble." I'm happy to say that DSE turned out better (IMO). But I see what you're saying.
 
It's like back when Ubisoft released BG&E and Sands of Time in the same month. Epic fail.
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