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NWR Interactive => Podcast Discussion => Topic started by: Jonnyboy117 on January 13, 2012, 07:33:28 PM

Title: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on January 13, 2012, 07:33:28 PM
Please use this thread to discuss Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones for RFN RetroActive. The game is available free for 3DS Ambassadors, or you can look for the original GBA cartridge on the secondary market.


We'll be taking excerpts from posts in this thread to be read on the podcast. Please help keep the discussion on topic!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: frostybro24 on January 13, 2012, 08:26:06 PM
I just finished Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones a few days ago, and it was one of the best video game experiences I’ve had recently.  I’ve really gotten into RPG’s in the last few years, but FETSS is my introduction to the strategy RPG.  I have never before seen a level of polish in a GBA game.  I’m sure RFN will talk extensively about its gameplay (which is superb), but what really impresses me about the game is its storytelling and graphics.  The branching storyline and its optional scenes (based on character relationships and which characters you’ve managed to keep alive) is pulled off spectacularly, yet is at the same time a subtle addition to the game that isn’t shoved in your face. A really cool part of the game is the battle animations.  The characters’ attacks all look fantastic, and the game makes you want to watch them over and over again (which you will). Especially impressive are the critical strikes, which had me yelling “ohhh!” multiple times, as if my character had just sunk a buzzer-beater 3-pointer to win the battle.  In addition, FETSS features what is the best after-credits scene I have ever watched in a video game.  I was on the verge of tears watching the final scene.  And afterwards you get an awesome epilogue detailing what happens to each character at the end.  Newbies (myself included) get to see what happened to Ephraim, Eirika, and possibly Duessel and Seth, and also know what chapter all the other characters died in, while veteran players or those who played with more cautious tactics are rewarded by finding out what happened to all their mages and archers and so forth. This game is a gem, and needs to be played by anyone who enjoys Japanese RPG’s or a good story.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 13, 2012, 08:37:47 PM
My progress has been slowed in this game simply from how many time I get unlucky ate the end and I have to redo the mission all over again.

Also Pegasus lady... For goodness sake get some armor...
Seth is almost insta win but using him means not getting XP for everyone who needs it.  I literally parked him at a fortress one mission and watched him single handedlytake out 2/3 of the enemies army without taking a scratch.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 13, 2012, 08:40:42 PM
A quick tip for new players, do not use "Seth", a least not until you level up your other characters. Seth is an advanced unit who will demolish most units of a fair portion of the game, but he will suck up all the EXP that should be going to everyone else, crippling your army. Your other units will gain entire levels from a kill while Seth will only get 2-10 EXP out of 100.

There is a similar character in Fire Emblem that is also a newbie trap.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: apdude on January 13, 2012, 08:55:13 PM
So far I'm about 10hrs in and have only lost one unit. Hope that doesn't screw me over in the end. Also gold seems really hard to come by. I want to do side quests but I'm worried i'll use up all my equipment and won't be able to afford more to progress the story.  Overall it's been pretty fun but I don't really know why since it is pretty much the same thing over and over.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 13, 2012, 09:06:18 PM
Stupid.... 30 minutes wasted because Moulder can't heal himself and Mercenary guy couldn't do 24 points of damage.

Now I have to do this mission again for the 6th time...
The one that killed Moulder was at literally 1 HP.  I know healers can't attack but they should have the ability to random proc a heal on themselves when they are in battle.  I can't wait till I get that Leveling tower thingy.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Fiendlord_Timmay on January 13, 2012, 09:09:09 PM
I played Sacred Stones about a year ago. Having played the original Fire Emblem for gba, Shadow Dragon, Radiant Dawn, and about half of Path of Radiance, I have to say, this one was the most forgettable. I'm struggling to remember anything about this one.


 It may have something to do with this being the easiest, (in my opinion) Fire Emblem game. Some of the stages in the other games are burned into my mind because of the horror I went through to beat them. The difficulty in this game is more of a mild annoyance. It doesn't help that you can grind your characters in the repeatable battles. Although I only did that at the very end of the game, I can imagine how ridiculously overpowered you could become by grinding.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: apdude on January 13, 2012, 09:24:53 PM
Another thing that was a little annoying so far. I upgraded my theif and now he no longer steals. Unfortunately that seems to be the only way to get the items required to upgrade units.  If I'd known I may have chosen differently. Hope I can get another theif soon.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 13, 2012, 09:46:37 PM
Another thing that was a little annoying so far. I upgraded my theif and now he no longer steals. Unfortunately that seems to be the only way to get the items required to upgrade units.  If I'd known I may have chosen differently. Hope I can get another theif soon.
You can recurit a Rouge later in the game, which is the one of the two upgrades to the theif. So yes, you get another theif.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 13, 2012, 09:52:48 PM
With a game that requires so much mission restarting why is there not a fast way to restart missions?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: frostybro24 on January 13, 2012, 10:24:14 PM
With a game that requires so much mission restarting why is there not a fast way to restart missions?


The game doesnt require restarting missions, although there were a few times where i refused to lose a good character. Youre right, though, the menus can be tedious, though thankfully the load times are virtually nonexistant.  I like how if you get game over and choose to continue where you left off instead of restarting, you can rewatch your death helplessly
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 13, 2012, 10:59:38 PM
With a game that requires so much mission restarting why is there not a fast way to restart missions?
The game doesnt require restarting missions, although there were a few times where i refused to lose a good character. Youre right, though, the menus can be tedious, though thankfully the load times are virtually nonexistant.  I like how if you get game over and choose to continue where you left off instead of restarting, you can rewatch your death helplessly
I disagree.  If you lose anyone you pretty much just lost the game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 13, 2012, 11:06:25 PM
I'm a pretty big Fire Emblem fan, having played and repeatedly beaten all the localized games except for the DS one, which I can never find in stores.

I can't speak for how or whether the games before Fire Emblem 7 were from each other (the GBA game with Eliwood that immediately predated Sacred Stones), but FE7 struck me as being extremely old-school in its design and philosophy. It seemed generally more difficult, money was tighter, promotions were tougher to get, and grinding was nearly impossible since outside of abusing Arenas (which was dangerous in and of itself) there weren't many ways to beef up your characters. Oh, and make sure you buy everything you need from the stores, because there ain't no going back afterwards!

By contrast, Sacred Stones seems like Nintendo was trying to modernize the series. Being able to revisit shops is hugely beneficial. Grinding is not only easy, but the creation of two separate areas devoted to that makes me think the developers are encouraging it, especially since three characters in particular start out pathetically weak (they ain't killin' nobody; the reverse is not true!) but can morph into the most powerful characters in their classes. And yes, even without grinding I'd argue Sacred Stones is the easiest of the localized games, especially if you choose to follow Eirkia over Ephraim when given the choice.

I think the developers did a better job of bringing Fire Emblem into modernity with the Gamecube and Wii games, especially since random encounters are a pretty big drag on the game's pacing, but I like the fact that Nintendo tried, since I'm not masochistic enough to say that I prefer how FE7 went about things.

I also like how the maps tend to be wide open, in contrast to the choke-point heavy GC and Wii games, and how enemies in particular seem to take advantage of this with their high amount of flying units. Add to that the high volume of recruitable characters, and how you almost always get to make a choice between two very different classes when promoting your units, and I'd argue, based on memory, that Sacred Stones is probably one of the most flexible of the Fire Emblem titles.

A quick tip for new players, do not use "Seth", a least not until you level up your other characters. Seth is an advanced unit who will demolish most units of a fair portion of the game, but he will suck up all the EXP that should be going to everyone else, crippling your army. Your other units will gain entire levels from a kill while Seth will only get 2-10 EXP out of 100.

Building on this though, you can use Seth for the first several maps (until you get a decent sized army) very effectively if you simply strip him of any weapons that he can use in combat (swords and lances). That way, you can effectively shield/rescue other characters without worrying about losing a unit, since it'll be a while until Seth can take real damage from enemies. Additionally, you can use him as a pack mule to store excess items for the first handful of maps, since you don't get to store items until a fair way into the game.

Stupid.... 30 minutes wasted because Moulder can't heal himself and Mercenary guy couldn't do 24 points of damage.

Now I have to do this mission again for the 6th time...
The one that killed Moulder was at literally 1 HP.  I know healers can't attack but they should have the ability to random proc a heal on themselves when they are in battle.

Your healer(s), and most other characters for that matter, should always have a healing item in their inventory. Assume that your healer can take a maximum of one hit without healing himself/herself, and the only real danger they'll ever be in is from the fog of war maps.

So far I'm about 10hrs in and have only lost one unit. Hope that doesn't screw me over in the end. Also gold seems really hard to come by. I want to do side quests but I'm worried i'll use up all my equipment and won't be able to afford more to progress the story.  Overall it's been pretty fun but I don't really know why since it is pretty much the same thing over and over.

 Make a habit of selling off excess items, and especially keep an eye on enemy inventories to snag the Jewels they often carry (which you can sell for several thousand). You'll need a Thief/Rogue to steal those, though, so keep one around. I'd promote your Thief to a Rogue, since there are two better Assassins you can promote (although Swordmasters are better...), but the only other Rogue in the game is quite mediocre.

As for the grinding maps, I've noticed that two or three enemies drop things you can sell, or just money directly, so they about pay for themselves. The second grinding map is actually quite profitable to grind through, although you'll need a Thief/Rogue to take full advantage.

Finally, and most risky, you can always resort to Arena abuse.  :P: : Just make sure you're not fighting a swordmaster!
 
 Basically, unless you're blowing your cash on Silver weapons, money won't be a problem for most of the game. Just don't expect it to be super-abundant until near the end, either.

With a game that requires so much mission restarting why is there not a fast way to restart missions?

 Press A+B+Start+Select simultaneously at any time to soft reset. From there, it only takes a few seconds to restart a map.
 
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: gojira on January 13, 2012, 11:10:20 PM
@Ceric - give your healers (actually all your characters) healing items like vulneraries to heal themselves.  Although I agree it is stupid they can't heal themselves with rods.

The Sacred Stones wasn't the first SRPG I ever played, but it was one of the earlier ones.  I've never really liked the permanent death in this series.  I've always thought the original Final Fantasy Tactics had a better setup.  In that game when someone dies you have something like three turns to revive them and then they die forever.  There's still permanent death, but you don't have to restart a whole level just because some character dies at the end of a battle.  However, outside of that feature I've really loved the games.

Probably my favorite aspect of these games are the characters.  The beautiful sprite animation is worth watching even after seeing it over and over again.  Also there's something always satisfying about seeing your characters change class.  I also tend to cherish the characters with unique sprites.  In this game I even choose character's classes by the look of their sprite.  I also tend to battle using characters based on their design over their abilities/strengths.

One feature I never really utilized until later games is placing characters next to each other to form support links.  Not only does it give extra character information, but it also makes your characters better in battle.  It's something I try to take advantage of as much as possible.

And I also want to note that a lot of the issues people bring up with this game are improved upon in later games.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: frostybro24 on January 13, 2012, 11:18:18 PM

Probably my favorite aspect of these games are the characters.  The beautiful sprite animation is worth watching even after seeing it over and over again.  Also there's something always satisfying about seeing your characters change class.  I also tend to cherish the characters with unique sprites.  In this game I even choose character's classes by the look of their sprite.  I also tend to battle using characters based on their design over their abilities/strengths.

One feature I never really utilized until later games is placing characters next to each other to form support links.  Not only does it give extra character information, but it also makes your characters better in battle.  It's something I try to take advantage of as much as possible.




The sprite work in this game is beautiful, reminds me of the sidescrolling castlevanias, and i also didnt realize how awesome synching your characters is until the end of the game!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 13, 2012, 11:48:12 PM
Finally fully beat that chapter.  I hope they have voice acting in the new one.  Let me get to the action faster while still hearing the story.
On the healer thing, he had items and like.  In this case it was a fog of war map and I got unlucky on the rolls.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Fatty The Hutt on January 14, 2012, 11:21:34 AM
Re-post #1 from poll thread:


I thought I might be out but started playing it this morning on my commute. So, I guess I am in.
 
Here are my thoughts so far.
 
1. I have never played a Fire Emblem game before.
 
2. I am playing this one on the easy setting because the description said that was the only one with a tutorial.
 
3. I watched the whole intro video and also the rundown of unit types that follows. Nice variety. And there's dead, re-animated units. Ooooh, spooky. Also, I like the art style of the anime character protraits. Reminds me of how Puzzle Quest is presented. I realize Puzzle Quest is the imitator here, I just played that one first.
 
4. So far, the music is quite good too, though more "rockin' arcade" than I was expecting in a typical Nintendo game. Reminds me of a Capcom action game, like Megaman or something (though admittedly I have played very little MegaMans).
 
5. The tutorial so far is excellent. Walking me through, step by step. And I quite like the time it is taking with setting up the story, too. If it was all just turn-based action I might get put off. But they have cleverly hooked me by getting me to first give a crap about the characters and the world politics.
 
6. The text does not scroll fast enough. But I can get it to jump to the end of the scrolling by hitting the A button. Problem solved and thank you.
 
7. I have played the two Age of Empires DS games. I liked them both, the first one (Age of Kings) a bit better than the second (Mythologies). They are turn based strategy with different unit types and all that jazz, so this game is not as foreign to me as I thought it might be. I am digging the heavier story emphasis in this Fire Emblem game.
 
8. I like the "weapon triangle" rock-paper-scissors mechanic. Lance-beats-sword, sword-beats-axe, axe-beats-lance. Easy to remember and should be fun to play around with in the strategy. I am sure more strategy layers are coming.
 
9. I am VERY impressed with the music. I noticed about half way through the prologue chapter that it changes dynamically depending on the action of the chapter. It is seamless and the shifting music is pleasing and sets the tone of the action very well. I am really floored by this. It was very unexpected.
 
10. I have finished the prologue chapter and am about half way through chapter one proper. Some friendly units just showed up to help my fleeing princess and her knight. I think I get to control them next. All-in-all, I am pleased so far.

 
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Fatty The Hutt on January 14, 2012, 11:23:07 AM
Re-post #2 from poll thread:


Have been now looking through the "guide" screens as the tutorial helpfully told me to go check them out by clicking the A button anywhere on the map that is otherwise unoccupied. Lots of good info in there and its also where you can save or suspend the game. Game also auto-suspends if you head back to the 3DS home menu with the Home button.
 
But, on the downside, they have white lettering on a pale blue background all through the guides. I can barely make out the text. Squiniting abounds!
 
Lord, I am old.

Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Nbz on January 14, 2012, 07:14:28 PM
A quick tip for new players, do not use "Seth", a least not until you level up your other characters. Seth is an advanced unit who will demolish most units of a fair portion of the game, but he will suck up all the EXP that should be going to everyone else, crippling your army. Your other units will gain entire levels from a kill while Seth will only get 2-10 EXP out of 100.

There is a similar character in Fire Emblem that is also a newbie trap.


As far as Jeigans go Seth is actually ok, but yeah I would definitely advise against using him. I did however use him extensively when I first played the game, but had to make up for it later due to lack of levels in my other party members. Also making sure that Eirika/Ephraim are well levelled is very useful for the late game, I tended to neglect Eirika a bit on my first playthrough which proved to be a bit annoying later, but nothing I couldn't get around.


I would say that this game is much more newb (not noob) friendly and streamlined than the first American GBA title (keeping in mind there was a game previous to that on the GBA in Japan, which I might add is hard as nails in comparison to this one).


The fact that the item storage is inbuilt into the main character makes things so much easier, rather than having to waste a party slot on that guy with the storage tent from FE7. The Tower of Valni and the Ruins, as well as the random skirmishes that appear on the map are also extremely useful to get in some safe grinding if you aren't ready for the next map yet.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 14, 2012, 11:54:32 PM
So does anyone else like the fact that every major fortress in this game (and the series) is supposed to be tough/impossible to conquer...which is why your characters just waltz through the front doors? And if everyone's been at peace for generations, why does every nation have such a big army?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 15, 2012, 01:10:39 AM
And if everyone's been at peace for generations, why does every nation have such a big army?

United States is suppose to be one of the peaceful nations in the world, but we have the largest army and probably the most armed services operation of any other faction in the world.  Coming from that heritage not really.
Though to be honest the invading army did sort of Waltz through all there neighbors.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: NintendoFanboy on January 15, 2012, 08:33:42 AM
I hear people say skip the text its not important, just play the battles.  Well your missing 60%
of the fun. The character interaction is a big part of caring about these people.
When you are battling, look at the options when you move close to another caracter, they
have support dialog.(sometimes)
 Yea, LEVEL UP the characters, as ignoring Eirika and Ephraim(the first games version) is the mistake
 i made on the first GBA (u.s.) version. 
Then a few chapters in u have to decide who you use and who you leave out, meaning no leveling for them.
WHERE are the leveling (grinding ) maps, i'll do that for sure.
I put almost 600 hours into DQ IX grinding,(someone took my cart at work so i had start over) about 300 hrs
per game.  So grind for level, yea, but not much now as gotta finish for retro Active.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 15, 2012, 05:31:56 PM
I wish there wasn't so much story in any given go.  Thats why I think this be great for voice acting.   I care about the story but, I feel like I'm wading through a novel with occasional pictures.  I like the Gameplay and having the story a little more mixed in is better.

I'm trying to level different characters.  In specific the female Magic user because I hear she gets a horse version.  Well I go to level her and I had just got through making sure everyone had there equipment all settled and lo and behold I somehow missed she was almost out of Fireballs.  Unfortunately the next mission doesn't take you back to the map.  Though I did get Franz upgraded but I didn't realize I needed to use an item to force that.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: gojira on January 16, 2012, 10:02:41 AM
@Ceric - You need an item to promote every character.  Except the trainees, but they start at a sub level so that doesn't really count.

Which is annoying because I have characters I want to promote but don't have the item for it. 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 16, 2012, 10:41:30 AM

Then a few chapters in u have to decide who you use and who you leave out, meaning no leveling for them.
WHERE are the leveling (grinding ) maps, i'll do that for sure.

After Chapter 8, you'll unlock two new maps. One of them is a large tower (can't miss it). That's the first one. Keep in mind too that that map gains more floors as you progress through the game. Don't forget to retreat if you get in over your head!

I wish there wasn't so much story in any given go.  Thats why I think this be great for voice acting.   I care about the story but, I feel like I'm wading through a novel with occasional pictures.  I like the Gameplay and having the story a little more mixed in is better.

I'm trying to level different characters.  In specific the female Magic user because I hear she gets a horse version.  Well I go to level her and I had just got through making sure everyone had there equipment all settled and lo and behold I somehow missed she was almost out of Fireballs.  Unfortunately the next mission doesn't take you back to the map.  Though I did get Franz upgraded but I didn't realize I needed to use an item to force that.

 In terms of the plot, I hate to say it but I don't think you're really missing much. I don't think the game has too much of it myself, since few cutscenes last more than two minutes (at the rate I read), but the product is fairly pedestrian. I do enjoy a lot of the character interaction found in the support conversations, though.
 
 As for promoting, like gojira said only the three trainees (Ross, Amelia, and Ewan) and the two Lords (Ephraim and Eirika) don't need an item to promote. You probably have several of these items by now. Guiding Rings = Mages/Clerics, Elysian Whips = Pegasi/Wyverns, etc. I suggest not promoting anyone until they hit Level 20, though, unless you're tired of slowly leveling up a cleric. If you ever need more, you can buy promoting items in the Secret Store at Chapter 14 or 19. Good luck finding it though!
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Soren on January 16, 2012, 10:50:10 AM
Well, I breezed through the first 4 chapters easily, but seems like I hit the first wall in chapter 5. It's insane how pathetically weak some of these guys are, and how careful/precise you have to be in your movement across the map.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: KDR_11k on January 16, 2012, 01:13:46 PM
I'm planning to play the game with a no-reload rule, if people die then they die. Fewer worries that way. I don't see myself getting so much into the game that I would regret being unable to continue. I've played the chapters 0 to 2 and so far there has been no fun of either the normal or the Dwarf Fortress variety (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Fun). Just the usual JRPG gameplay of "hit dude A until dead, then hit dude B until dead" with some wasted time introduced by the tiled map requiring multiple turns to walk up and hit dude B until dead.

A quick tip for new players, do not use "Seth", a least not until you level up your other characters. Seth is an advanced unit who will demolish most units of a fair portion of the game, but he will suck up all the EXP that should be going to everyone else, crippling your army. Your other units will gain entire levels from a kill while Seth will only get 2-10 EXP out of 100.

There is a similar character in Fire Emblem that is also a newbie trap.

And that is why I hate strategy RPGs, the silent death that is incorrect leveling. You don't notice it until it's too late to fix.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Nbz on January 16, 2012, 01:22:38 PM
Well, I breezed through the first 4 chapters easily, but seems like I hit the first wall in chapter 5. It's insane how pathetically weak some of these guys are, and how careful/precise you have to be in your movement across the map.


Ross and Vanessa can be difficult to keep alive early game, simply because of their low starting HP, but both will be very useful assets later on so I recommend trying to keep them alive. Ross in particular can become one of the most powerful characters in the game if you stick with him for long enough, its just difficult getting through those early levels when he's a bit too weak to kill guys.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: gojira on January 16, 2012, 02:20:46 PM
And that is why I hate strategy RPGs, the silent death that is incorrect leveling. You don't notice it until it's too late to fix.

It's funny how SRPGs tend to be very long games.  Yet a lot of them are designed to be replayed multiple times.  Even if you do use some characters to level 'incorrectly'.  You'll still be able to beat the game.  And the next time you play you'll level up different characters.  That's why I enjoy replaying these types of games.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on January 16, 2012, 04:33:06 PM
I wish there wasn't so much story in any given go.  Thats why I think this be great for voice acting.   I care about the story but, I feel like I'm wading through a novel with occasional pictures.  I like the Gameplay and having the story a little more mixed in is better.


I feel the opposite way--  I'm really glad there isn't voice acting, because the story seems...well, so far, not so great.   I don't want to say the story is typical anime BS (and as the former president of an anime club in college, I'm not prejudiced against anime in any way) but....oh man, thoughts of bad fantasy anime keep popping into my head.  Record of Lodoss War anyone?  The text bubbles make it easier to skip and/or wade through.   I guess if the story was any better, I might agree with you...but so far (Chapter 4) there are too many characters and I don't give a crap about them.

And why does this game, graphically, look so bad?  Seriously, this was late in the GBA, yet it looks horrible if you compare it to, say, Advance Wars, which was practically launch.  The textures and sprites seem so much simpler, less fluid, and less detailed than those in Advance Wars, which makes no sense because in Advance Wars it was just a bunch of tanks, and I'm pretty sure that both these games are running off the same engine (and if not, darn, they seem similar!)

I even busted out my original GBA cart of Advance wars to do a comparison, and while it's not exactly like with like (Advance wars on a DSLITE vs. Sacred Stones Ambassador on a 3DS), Advance wars looks so much better.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 16, 2012, 11:56:16 PM
I spent an hour and a half reading text in this game in one sitting yesterday... an hour and a half of solid text... I was slightly distracted so it was probably 45 minutes of solid text.

Thank god I finally got to the tower.  Now I can see the real might of a few of my units like Vanessa.  Now she can demolish the whole first level of the tower by herself.

I'm trying to get everyone up to at least level ten before moving on in the game.

Also everyone talks about Support in the general discussion and I have yet to figure out how that works.  Putting teams of people near each other and they should start to like each other then start buffing each other.  I have a lot of people that I in general group together but I've only gotten the Tutorial Social.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 17, 2012, 12:07:08 AM
...
And why does this game, graphically, look so bad?  Seriously, this was late in the GBA, yet it looks horrible if you compare it to, say, Advance Wars, which was practically launch.  The textures and sprites seem so much simpler, less fluid, and less detailed than those in Advance Wars, which makes no sense because in Advance Wars it was just a bunch of tanks, and I'm pretty sure that both these games are running off the same engine (and if not, darn, they seem similar!)

I even busted out my original GBA cart of Advance wars to do a comparison, and while it's not exactly like with like (Advance wars on a DSLITE vs. Sacred Stones Ambassador on a 3DS), Advance wars looks so much better.

Its the same reason why Warcraft 2 can look better then Warcraft 3.  Art style.  Look at Advance Wars.  Really look at it.  None of the units are attempting to be as detailed as the ones in this game.  I don't think this game looks bad.  I think its pretty standard fair.

Talking about the art.  Did anyone notice that some characters have the comic looking eyes and other characters have real eyes?  I thought about making a team by eye type just for laughs.
I got a laugh when Erika made a ruckus about one of the characters her brother found having Indigo hair.  I just had to laugh because she have 2 members in here party with indigo hair and the wonder twins have bright blue hair.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 17, 2012, 12:23:00 AM


Also everyone talks about Support in the general discussion and I have yet to figure out how that works.

Between maps, check out a unit's support page. There will be between one to several other units listed. These are the other characters with whom that unit can gain support levels.

Pick whatever unit(s) you want to gain support levels with each other. The next time you're on a map  (story, random encounter, or otherwise) leave those units adjacent to each other for several turns. The number of turns you need varies greatly, so while Neimi and Colm gain support quickly (and in fact have one ready to use after just one turn!), others can take dozens of turns. In the previous game, one support relationship took around 70 turns...per support level. Luckily none in Sacred Stones are as bad, but be patient sometimes.

You'll know your units are ready when you select them and they gain a new action at the top of their character menu, "Support." Select it, read the brief conversation (or not), and then luxuriate in the fact that you've raised support levels. From now on, when those two characters are adjacent to each other, they'll get bonuses, which can sometimes be pretty sweet. +15% critical rate? Yes please!

Word of warning though: each character can only have a maximum of five support conversations in a single playthrough. You can spend these however you want. Use three support levels (the maximum any two characters can have with each other) with one character, and two with a second, or have one support level with five characters. The bonuses stack though, so specializing is recommended.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: NintendoFanboy on January 17, 2012, 10:04:35 AM
Is there any way to keep everyone (all your characters and NPC's) alive in chapter 6?
8 attempts and the last time pissed me off SPOILER maybe the dang spider that moves
1 space per turn, swoops 4 spaces and attacks and poisons  an NPC the only one i had not
rescued yet.
3 gave overs, 2 frans 1 garcia and 1 Sword dude, UUGH!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 17, 2012, 10:37:39 AM
Bring Vanessa the Pegasus Knight and place her lower right in the starting formation. Have at least one, if not both of your staff users bring a torch staff to light it up the area right and the top of your starting position. Send Vanessa along the bottom of the map towards the civilians and visit the village on the way. Once there "Rescue" them and fly them out of harms way towards the south. Have the rest of your team hold a defensive position until you can push to the right. Rush to the spider or take out the boss which will end the level.

Vanessa can fight the spider, but it's a stalemate and the spider is more interested in killing civilians than attacking you. Another alternate stragagy is to have Vanessa pickup one of your other characters that is strong enough to fight the spider and ferry them to the civilians along the same route. However it will make your main group weaker and the push right slower. The adult can take one hit and be poisoned for several turns without dying, the children don't stand a chance so recuse them first.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Soren on January 17, 2012, 12:32:09 PM
Ross and Vanessa can be difficult to keep alive early game, simply because of their low starting HP, but both will be very useful assets later on so I recommend trying to keep them alive. Ross in particular can become one of the most powerful characters in the game if you stick with him for long enough, its just difficult getting through those early levels when he's a bit too weak to kill guys.

Yeah, I had that feeling about Ross as soon as I got him in the game. I've never been a big fan of Pegasus Knights in any FE game, so I don't know how much I'll use her once I start getting more characters into my group.

Part of the joy of Fire Emblem games is turning those weak characters into unstoppable killing machines. I loved getting Nino in the first North-America FE game and using some of the abilities and potions on her. You never know when you're going to run into a character that has insanely high growths and will destroy everyone in its path.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: KDR_11k on January 17, 2012, 12:47:24 PM
The game outright tells you that Ross is a magikarp (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagikarpPower).

I think I'll rather play Tales of the Abyss, it's just more fun. The Fire Emblem story just starts out like a goddamn checklist of tired clichees.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: kbaker2002de on January 17, 2012, 09:37:50 PM
Is there any way to keep everyone (all your characters and NPC's) alive in chapter 6?
8 attempts and the last time pissed me off SPOILER maybe the dang spider that moves
1 space per turn, swoops 4 spaces and attacks and poisons  an NPC the only one i had not
rescued yet.
3 gave overs, 2 frans 1 garcia and 1 Sword dude, UUGH!

First off, let me say I am really loving playing this game.  I find it reminds me a lot of Ogre Battle, but I think it is a bit easier to get my head around.
 
that being said, Chapter 6 is PISSING ME OFF.  I had a freaking archer one hit kill 2 or 3 guys.  I might just say screw it and play the game without them.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Glad0s on January 17, 2012, 09:50:03 PM
Well, this is my first strategy RPG, and I've gotta say: I love it. Now, that's not to say that it can't be frustrating at times, but overall I think that this is a really, really good game. I've put around 12 hours in it and I am now stuck on Chapter 14. But, for some reason, getting stuck in this game isn't as annoying as it is getting stuck in a typical JRPG. I dunno, but it feels like winning is always possible, and that everytime you try a map again, it seems completely different than the last time you attempted it. Also, grinding feels much less repetitive and quicker than in other RPG's. My only major qualm with the game is that I sometimes wish that the enemy phase would move more quickly. Oh, and also, quite a few members of my party have died. Ross, all the healers, all the magic users, all the archers, that girl who rides on the pegasus thing....yeah, that's kind of a lot.....Will this severely hurt me in the final stages of the game? I'm playing on easy, by the way.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 17, 2012, 11:29:37 PM

that being said, Chapter 6 is PISSING ME OFF.  I had a freaking archer one hit kill 2 or 3 guys.  I might just say screw it and play the game without them.

I'm going to guess that the two-three characters that got one-shotted were either Ross or Vanessa. Ross, like Amelia and Ewan, starts out pathetically weak (but becomes one of the strongest characters you'll get), so most enemies can kill him in one shot.

Vanessa is a flying unit. That matters because archers get a bonus against fliers; they basically get a free critical hit against them, which is enough at that point to finish her off. There are a handful of such attacks/weapons, so before a battle starts keep an eye on your weapon and their weapon: if one of them is glowing, that means a critical hit is guaranteed on contact. On Chapter 6, keep a close eye on your cavalry units too, since some enemies have anti-cavalry spears that'll tear Franz a new one.



A lot of the difficulty on that map comes from the fog of war. Make sure you have someone use the torch you got in Chapter 5, and use Colm on that map: he can automatically see further than other units, and his speed is good enough to dodge most attacks at this point. Just make sure to keep his health up, because what he has in speed he lacks in health and defense!


Oh, and also, quite a few members of my party have died. Ross, all the healers, all the magic users, all the archers, that girl who rides on the pegasus thing....yeah, that's kind of a lot.....Will this severely hurt me in the final stages of the game? I'm playing on easy, by the way.

 Well, it's certainly not ideal to lose that many... Just focus on recruiting, stop letting folks die, and be prepared to abuse your tanks. A lot. The game's still beatable though!
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Lithium on January 17, 2012, 11:55:16 PM
And that is why I hate strategy RPGs, the silent death that is incorrect leveling. You don't notice it until it's too late to fix.

It's funny how SRPGs tend to be very long games.  Yet a lot of them are designed to be replayed multiple times.  Even if you do use some characters to level 'incorrectly'.  You'll still be able to beat the game.  And the next time you play you'll level up different characters.  That's why I enjoy replaying these types of games.


Well I tend to agree with KDR, which is why I prefer straight up turn based strategy games like Advance wars since it's all about tactics instead of level grinding/stats (especially days of ruin/dark conflict since they nerfed C.O powers) but yeah, im not ready to play another fire emblem since I played Radiant dawn recently (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=29356.msg705562#msg705562) but when i do play again im following KDR's lead and just dropping the game if i cant continue since I lost too many hours of my life resetting.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on January 18, 2012, 07:10:15 AM
I've played through this game twice before, yet barrly remember it in the fog of FE games I've played. That said, I'm enjoying it so far. It feels punchier than the GC/Wii console games and less cruel than the first.

Of course, like all FE games, be sure to turn off battle animations and crank up the unit movement speed.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Soren on January 18, 2012, 09:44:16 AM
... im not ready to play another fire emblem since I played Radiant dawn recently (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=29356.msg705562#msg705562) but when i do play again im following KDR's lead and just dropping the game if i cant continue since I lost too many hours of my life resetting.

I hear ya. Radiant Dawn was absolutely brutal at times. I felt the same way when I finished it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 18, 2012, 02:53:59 PM
I am reading these posts and seeing that a good amount of people are struggling on some of the earlier levels (Between 5-7 seems to be the big ones) and for some reason, I feel really nostalgic reading this comments xD. I have beaten every US Released Fire Emblem multiple times and there are certain play styles I have found that work better for these games, espically levels where you are trying to recover a unit. Here are some tips that should help you guys.

1) Always play defensively! This is the biggest help I can give to people. Playing offensively hardly gets you anywhere in the game. If you are in doubt about moving a unit to get a single kill, don't make that move. Allow the enemy to come to you. The AI in the game is very aggressive and if you just take the levels slower and allow the computer to make the moves, you will see more victories and less restarts.

2) Travel in squads! Its always good to split your team into 2-3 units and give each an objective depending on enemy placement or goals. Makes sure to arrange the team for certain situations. Personally, I usually split my team as the fallowing: one squad is mainly my hard attackers with 2 healers and usually has a max of 6 units totall. The rest of the group stays together and travels the easier route, and I usually have the more defensive units such as Padalins and Generals in the slower unit. I try to mix the first unit to, such as one Mage, one healer, one flyer, 2 healers to cover each other and two physical attackers such sword masters, Heroes, Padalins, ect.

3) Know the enemy and plan ahead! Not many people know this, but if you "a" on an enemy unit, it will show you where the enemy can move. This is key when are making your moves and deciding how many squares you should move. If you hit "L", then you bring up the enemy stat sheet, allowing one to see what weapons the enemy unit has. Also another good tip is if the boss is defending a post or check point, he will not move, so never worry about bosses getting the best of you. You can simply use the rescue command the pick up the injured unit and move them to a safe location next to your healer.

4) If you are trying to recruit an enemy unit, easiest way to do it is like so: first eliminate all the guys around him, leaving him by himself. After that, take a character that has really good defense and resists there weapon and place him in the enemy units kill zone without holding a single attacking item (I always used seth in the early levels because even crits from characters can't kill him early on). The next turn, the enemy unit should approach the helpless unit and attack them. If all goes well, the character should live the blow and it leaves you free to recruit them as you please.

Thats the basic jist of things. If there anything else someone is stuck on, let me know and I will reply with something to help. Good luck guys!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 18, 2012, 03:04:30 PM
Also forgot to mention something some people said. What ever you guys do, do not underestimate healers, Pegasus Units, and the three pupil characters. The healers if trained properally will be able to attack upon there class upgrade and they are very good all around units. Pegasus may seem like they are terrible early on, but they are a good send latter on and if you upgrade them, prove to be very useful. They resist a lot of magic attacks in the game and are key players when trying to beat demons and the undead. Plus the weakness to bows is a mute point considering how far they can travel. The last 3 are easily the best units in the game with rediclous state growths. Go with Ross as a Pirate then Beserker, Edward as Shamon to Druid, and Amy or whatever he name is into a general and you have yourself the best units in the game! Do not underestimate these guys! They will save you time and time again if you put the time into training them, which is very easy thanks to the zombie tower you gain access to early on. The place is grind heaven and is the main reason the game is the easiest on the franchise! Ok, now I am done. Hope this helps :)
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: HellsAttack on January 18, 2012, 07:59:04 PM
Just finished Chapter 7, got Ross upgraded to Pirate. Remembering why I quit this game last time lol. Have to restart sooo much. Not quitting this time though. I just gotta make it to the grinding tower and it shouldn't be too bad.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 18, 2012, 08:05:01 PM
I abused the tower when I got it so Franz, Neimi, Lute,  Ross, and Vanessa has gotten upgraded to there next forms.  Everyone is over level 10 who didn't have upgrades except Colm who is still level 2.  Ross was level 12 in his next form by the time I started the actual mission then he got his upgrade item after his first enemy so now he's on his third form.  I miss the Dual Ax graphic.

Man the Upgraded units level sooooooo Slow except for Ross.

On Colm... I want to level him but if he gets hit by anyone he's dead and the rest of my units one shot everything in the Tower now with almost no fail so he can't pick up scraps...
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on January 19, 2012, 12:28:02 AM
Reading this thread gives me flashbacks to Ogre Battle 64. I think hearing James talk about this game will be more fun than actually playing it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Sarail on January 19, 2012, 06:14:57 PM
Is anyone else playing this on their GameBoy Player via GameCube, too? I started out alternating between it and playing it on my DS Lite, but now it's all GBP.  I feel like I can concentrate a bit easier on the task at hand.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: syn4aptik on January 20, 2012, 10:40:13 AM
Well I started this game and got to the first Fog of War map and pretty much abandoned it.  After three restarts trying to not lose a good character (after already losing one), I decided I'd much rather spend my time on Skyrim sidequest 109 than Fire Emblem.  It's just too unforgiving.  A game can be challenging without being soul-crushingly cruel. I love my 3DS, I don't feel like throwing it out the window.


The sad thing is, this game is so close to being great.  What would make it better?


1) The ability to create more saves than 3, and at any time during a battle.


2) The ability to revive lost characters. You don't have to make it cheap, just possible.


3) More opportunities for/more interesting grinding.


Pretty much any two of those things would completely save the game without taking away the challenge. No, making a game punishing does not make a game more challenging. Running a sub 5-minute mile is challenging. It wouldn't be any more challenging if you got shot in the head at the end if you run it in 5:01.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 20, 2012, 11:37:41 AM
That would remove the whole point of the game. Fire Emblem is one of the few games that have actual long term consequences(That you can chose not to accept by reloading an older save). The vast majority of games are short term affairs with no long term impact. Other games claim to have long term consequences, but more often than not it's just an alternate branch in the scripted story.

By making you value your units and grow them, makes you closer to them, at least in a gameplay sense. Whether you have an emotional attachment to them as characters is something different as that depends on how much you care about their story. There are other games where characters die like in Final Fantasy tactics, but you can always grind out a new one from a recruit, making them no different to a unit in Advanced Wars.

And you're not really suppose to grind. It's there to help even out your team. If you'ere using it to over level your team, you're playing it wrong. You have to play smart and the game more than gives you enough information so you know in advance how any given fight would work out. The AI is also very predicable, meaning most of the time, you can pick your battles.

The 3 saves thing is a cost/benefit thing. This is a GBA game made back in 2004. It's not like they gave you one un-resettable save slot as Capcom did for Resident Evil mercenaries because they want to be dicks.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on January 20, 2012, 12:41:34 PM
That would remove the whole point of the game. Fire Emblem is one of the few games that have actual long term consequences(That you can chose not to accept by reloading an older save). The vast majority of games are short term affairs with no long term impact.

That may be, but there's 2 problems with thinking about this game in those terms:  First, I don't remember a splash screen or anything in the manual that said "the point of this game is that everything you do has long term consequences" and second, games that embrace that philosophy tend not to be fun, especially for people new to the genre.  It's like permanent death, and that is a horrible gameplay idea.


The sad thing is, this game is so close to being great.  What would make it better?

1) The ability to create more saves than 3, and at any time during a battle.

2) The ability to revive lost characters. You don't have to make it cheap, just possible.

3) More opportunities for/more interesting grinding.


You know what strategy RPG game seemed to address some of your concerns, at least on the 3DS?  Ghost Recon Shadow Wars.  It had a save anywhere system, and though you couldn't revive characters, there was no griding at all --  it was a "everyone levels up" skill-based system that was awarded simply for finishing a mission alive, without any regard for whether you killed more or less enemies.  And you know what?  This worked beautifully.  The game was a little too easy and forgiving, though I think that's because your party members were too overpowered compared with enemies.  But I think if Nintendo and Japanese developers looked at this Russian made game (designed by Julian Gallop, the guy from XCOM), they might see some ideas which, while not completely new and revolutionary, were implemented really well.

And if you've never played it, I may recommend playing Shadow Wars, especially if you're new to the SRPG genre.  It's basically the original XCOM, with all the base building and weapon researching crap taken out, combat that is light years evolved (not better or different, just evolved) from the original XCOM's combat system, and with SRPG character development.  Maybe not any better or worse than Fire Emblem games, but definitely better than any other Western SRPG  since the original Xcom, including all those horrible sequels  (and why do people get excited about Xcom sequels, I will never understand.  They always suck.  Without exception.  Why keep that brand alive?)
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 20, 2012, 01:46:05 PM
If you go into this Genre of game and think that when you character dies its going to come back you don't know anything about this Genre.  Most games in this genre make sure that in some way a character dieing is something to be avoided at all cost. 

While it annoys the snot out of me to have to replay levels to make sure all my comrades survive I don't think I be as engaged in the game if that wasn't true.  Why get better when I can Zerg everything?

I do think that games like this really do need a way to do off battle training.  In this case its the tower.  There is nothing like getting to a level and finding you've been working on the wrong set of characters to get past it.  On the basis that you are a Mercenary troop there is no reason you couldn't justify doing training camps.  Also I know the help is good but I really could use some more info when its time to pick class changes.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 20, 2012, 03:23:19 PM
I do enjoy a lot of the character interaction found in the support conversations, though.
 

It looks like I got my Fire Emblem games mixed up. The ones in this game have been pretty stilted, melodramatic, and dry. The sequels do it much better.

Well I started this game and got to the first Fog of War map and pretty much abandoned it.  After three restarts trying to not lose a good character (after already losing one), I decided I'd much rather spend my time on Skyrim sidequest 109 than Fire Emblem.  It's just too unforgiving.  A game can be challenging without being soul-crushingly cruel. I love my 3DS, I don't feel like throwing it out the window.


The sad thing is, this game is so close to being great.  What would make it better?


1) The ability to create more saves than 3, and at any time during a battle.


2) The ability to revive lost characters. You don't have to make it cheap, just possible.


3) More opportunities for/more interesting grinding.


Pretty much any two of those things would completely save the game without taking away the challenge. No, making a game punishing does not make a game more challenging. Running a sub 5-minute mile is challenging. It wouldn't be any more challenging if you got shot in the head at the end if you run it in 5:01.

 While I fervently disagree that the game is cruel (I find it more than fair enough, although the first try at the series is certainly going to be rougher because you haven't practiced the mechanics yet), I do have some good news for you; the Wii game, Radiant Dawn, allows you to save anytime during a battle, and the "grinding" is done by collecting Bonus Experience in each map, which you can distribute between fights however you wish. Even better, doing certain things during some battles increases the amount of bonus experience you get, so it adds an extra goal to shoot for.
 
 In other words, you might want to try to track down the Wii title, since it sounds like it'll be more up your alley.
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 20, 2012, 03:50:46 PM
The Wii title sounds cool.  Shame I'll never play it because its not portable and I can monopolize the TV for it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: syn4aptik on January 20, 2012, 07:59:24 PM



That may be, but there's 2 problems with thinking about this game in those terms:  First, I don't remember a splash screen or anything in the manual that said "the point of this game is that everything you do has long term consequences" and second, games that embrace that philosophy tend not to be fun, especially for people new to the genre.  It's like permanent death, and that is a horrible gameplay idea.



Well said.


Another thing to realize, folks, is that a lot of people who like to play games have jobs and other responsibilities that make the mechanics of a game like FE really prohibitive. Skyrim (and many other PC-style RPGs) is a super long RPG. but it lets you save literally at any time.  So I can play for 30 minutes and get something done, even for a quest that is long.  I can make several saves so I dont have to go way back in the game in order to fix a mistake I made.  FE gives you one suspend state and doesn't let you make multiple saves during a fight. This means if you are not skilled/experienced in the game, you are going to be wasting a lot of time.


Yes, I know a lot of these issues have to do with the age of the game, but I don't have to pretend I live in the past in order to decide whether the game is for me.  FE isn't for me, I just don't have the time or the patience.  There are games out there that our more suited to my lifestyle and patience-level.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: gojira on January 20, 2012, 08:25:47 PM
I really liked the GBA games, but I really think Path of Radiance (the GameCube game) is the best I've played.  I haven't finished Radiant Dawn (the Wii game) yet, but so far I like it slightly less than the one on GC.  I really like all the characters (Nephenee!) and it introduced some new gameplay tweaks. 

First is the ability to save mid-battle.  The Wii version later allowed for saves at any time.  But even the ability to save at some point during a fight made late battle losses easier to bear. 

Also they introduced bonus experience.  Instead of worrying about grinding or babying healers you could award them exp.  You get bonus exp by playing well (i.e. fast battles, saving npcs).

Characters automatically promote at level 21.  No need for items unless you want to promote earlier.

Support increases by battling together not standing next to each other.  So characters aren't handcuffed together if you want to raise their support.  Also the conversations take place between battles, so you don't waste a move by talking.

I also liked the Skill system.  It allowed you to assign characters certain special abilities.

The only problem with these games is that they are on a console.  For some reason I find it so much easier to play this type of game on a portable.  I've been playing Sacred Stones until by battery dies, meanwhile I haven't touched Radiant Dawn (the Wii game) in forever.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 21, 2012, 01:30:40 AM
That may be, but there's 2 problems with thinking about this game in those terms:  First, I don't remember a splash screen or anything in the manual that said "the point of this game is that everything you do has long term consequences" and second, games that embrace that philosophy tend not to be fun, especially for people new to the genre.  It's like permanent death, and that is a horrible gameplay idea.

This is bull. What happens if a game is too easy and you waste $$ on a really short/bad game? Are you saying developers should put a self review of the game during the splash screen saying this game sucks, really buggy*cough skyrim* or it's hard or really easy?!?! After you brought the game?! Ridiculous.

Also permanent character loss is in both the manual and the guide in game. That is what the tutorial is for. FE has an "easy" mode that is the same as normal, but takes you through the guide during play to introduce new players to the game.

It's funny you brought up X-Com. That game is brutal, full of long term consequences, non standard game overs where you can economically corner yourself, no tutorial, very basic combat information. The only forgiving thing about it was the save system. There are ways to abuse the game with positive economic loops and certain gameplay elements that I doubt were fully intended, but if you played it straight, it's a hard game, harder than FE.

Shadow Wars is a nice game, but felt restrictive and the game design was too transparent, giving away the designers intent, therefore the whole level far too easily. Once you level your characters, the game ends. There is no way to play with the souped up characters at all.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: KDR_11k on January 21, 2012, 03:26:31 AM
Permadeath in games usually refers to being unable to undo the death through reloading. Unless you save scum there's no way to reload an old save after dying in a roguelike, Diablo Hardcore mode or Terraria Hardcore mode.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on January 21, 2012, 11:17:42 AM
Chapter 6 got rough, and I lost both of my healers. I hope there are more coming soon... down to only 6 starting party members now, but maybe I'll get a boost when I rescue Ephraim.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 21, 2012, 11:40:12 AM
Err wow, you're really throwing your people into the meat grinder. You are going to get some people soon(Not healers, I hope you like horses), but you have really done a massive disservice to yourself losing that many people, most critically, the healers. At the rate you're going, you won't have a team left in about a couple of chapters time, assuming it's still possible to past the levels. You're well on your way to a nonstandard gameover.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 21, 2012, 12:30:56 PM
The Wii title sounds cool.  Shame I'll never play it because its not portable and I can monopolize the TV for it.

If you ever can manage to, I highly recommend it. It's one of my favorite Wii titles, although it does have one serious flaw (it jumps around between characters, so one minute you have Group A, and a few chapters later you're using Group B instead, etc.).

The difference between it, this game, and FE 7 does go to the point I made earlier though; it really does feel like Sacred Stone was Nintendo's first attempt to try to modernize the series. I assume that was done in response to the decidedly-old school FE 7, and the outcry it generated here in the West. While Sacred Stones mostly tried a brute-force approach to the problem (let 'em grind and revisit shops!), I do appreciate the effort.

Yes, I know a lot of these issues have to do with the age of the game, but I don't have to pretend I live in the past in order to decide whether the game is for me.  FE isn't for me, I just don't have the time or the patience.  There are games out there that our more suited to my lifestyle and patience-level.

 I agree with your final sentiment: the series is simply not for you.
 
 Where I disagree with both you and leahsdad is the assertion that the things you dislike about the game are somehow flaws, or that they're outdated. They are neither. The mechanics of the game are very well refined and generally quite balanced. They are quite old-school, which is to say they demand a commitment from the player and they punish mistakes, but to say that such qualities belong exclusively "in the past" does a disservice to those of us who don't want every game out there to be a complete cakewalk that's measured primarily in hours lost.
 
 It sounds like you don't want to put in the time and energy it takes to get a grip on the series, and that you've come to favor titles whose entertainment value comes more casually. And that's fine. It's also probably widely shared: I mentioned in the poll how I didn't want Fire Emblem to win because I feared many people would give up fairly quickly. But I ask you to realize that, just because a mechanic isn't to your taste, it doesn't mean it's aged. Shoot, the game's only six years old, and the series has had several games release with the same mechanics since then!
 
 
 
Chapter 6 got rough, and I lost both of my healers. I hope there are more coming soon... down to only 6 starting party members now, but maybe I'll get a boost when I rescue Ephraim.

 You'll only get one more dedicated healer, and she won't come around for another three or four chapters. BUT you can easily make do with healing items for quite a while, and nearly all of the magic users promote into classes that let them use healing staves, so long-term you'll be fine.
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Lithium on January 21, 2012, 07:43:53 PM
Err wow, you're really throwing your people into the meat grinder. You are going to get some people soon(Not healers, I hope you like horses), but you have really done a massive disservice to yourself losing that many people, most critically, the healers. At the rate you're going, you won't have a team left in about a couple of chapters time, assuming it's still possible to past the levels. You're well on your way to a nonstandard gameover.


You just kind of made syn4aptik and Leah's dad's point for them. I'm pretty sure this is the stuff that they're talking about. Constant reloading and wasting your time is pretty much a requirement to avoid situations like this where you can't finish the game, especially if you're new to fire emblem. It's one thing to have to restart because you just lost then there's having t restart because one of your healers died right as you're about to end the mission. It's not even about a gameplay flaw, I agree with noname when he says that this is how its meant to be but some people just value their time more than that.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 22, 2012, 01:16:31 AM
You know permanently losing people would annoy me a lot less then not being able to go back to shops and resupply between missions.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on January 22, 2012, 08:45:37 AM
That may be, but there's 2 problems with thinking about this game in those terms:  First, I don't remember a splash screen or anything in the manual that said "the point of this game is that everything you do has long term consequences" and second, games that embrace that philosophy tend not to be fun, especially for people new to the genre.  It's like permanent death, and that is a horrible gameplay idea.

It's funny you brought up X-Com. That game is brutal, full of long term consequences, non standard game overs where you can economically corner yourself, no tutorial, very basic combat information. The only forgiving thing about it was the save system. There are ways to abuse the game with positive economic loops and certain gameplay elements that I doubt were fully intended, but if you played it straight, it's a hard game, harder than FE.

Shadow Wars is a nice game, but felt restrictive and the game design was too transparent, giving away the designers intent, therefore the whole level far too easily. Once you level your characters, the game ends. There is no way to play with the souped up characters at all.

Funny enough, Julian Gallop (X-Com guy) just did an interview in Edge in which he basically said the original X-com was, in retrospect,  very flawed and he would make it very differently now.   And I don't agree with your criticism of Shadow Wars' souped up characters (by the last level, your characters are godlike), but you're right, the game got way too easy by the end (I played on the hardest difficulty) and the game design was transparent, i.e. "Hey, you're characters are way too powerful, so here, go on a fight 20 robot monsters IN A ROW!"


Err wow, you're really throwing your people into the meat grinder. You are going to get some people soon(Not healers, I hope you like horses), but you have really done a massive disservice to yourself losing that many people, most critically, the healers. At the rate you're going, you won't have a team left in about a couple of chapters time, assuming it's still possible to past the levels. You're well on your way to a nonstandard gameover.


You just kind of made syn4aptik and Leah's dad's point for them. I'm pretty sure this is the stuff that they're talking about. Constant reloading and wasting your time is pretty much a requirement to avoid situations like this where you can't finish the game, especially if you're new to fire emblem. It's one thing to have to restart because you just lost then there's having t restart because one of your healers died right as you're about to end the mission. It's not even about a gameplay flaw, I agree with noname when he says that this is how its meant to be but some people just value their time more than that.

You know, I've been playing this game, like I play pretty much any game, like an OCD maniac.  I'm still in Chapter 6, probably reloaded about 20 times.  I've had to pretty much give up every other game I'm playing right now.  Mighty Switch Force.  3D Land.  Skyward Sword.  Mario Kart 7.  Catrap.  All on hold.  While the quality of Sacred Stones is good enough to keep me going, I wouldn't begrudge anyone who quit.  As far as SRPG games go, FE is pretty standard fare.  Keep your strongest units in front to take the brunt of attacks, keep your weak range units in back and save them as finishers so they can "mop up" left over EXP (because the game stupidly gives the most experience to the unit that actually kills enemies, even if someone else did all the work).  From X-com, Ogre Battle, these are all fairly standard gameplay conventions.  Hell, even Starcraft follows this philosophy.  So if someone decides to stop playing this game, hey, I hear ya.   Though the game is fun, don't get me wrong, and I will finish it.  It's got its hooks in me.


BUT if I'm reloading 15 or 20 times to the beginning of the chapter anyway, and if this is a practice shared by many people who play the game (and I'm sure it is) then obviously, saving and reloading any time would be nothing but a great benefit to playing the game.  Because people will do it anyway, so why not just make it that much easier?  Now, apparently from other people in this thread, the Wii games do let you save anytime.  I really hope the 3DS game does as well.  And I hope the fix the leveling system, which seems so flawed in the "coup-de-grace gets the most exp" philosophy.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: gojira on January 22, 2012, 09:55:08 AM
Beat the game.  I could tell I played well because I had no real problems with the final levels.  I even dominated the 'survival' level.  I had a handful of supports at level B at the end.  I wish I got them to A before beating the game.  However it makes me want to replay to get those.  Also I kinda want to play again to level up other characters.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on January 22, 2012, 09:55:31 AM
Oh, whatever!   I just finished chapter 6, and the bit with the bracelet was so predictable.  No, it was stupider than predictable.  Argh, stupid anime story.  Why do I pay attention?

On another note, I was only able to save 1 of the villagers from the spider.  Will that affect me in any way?  Would it have been better to save all 3, other than saving innocents from a horrible gruesome death and stuff.  You know, a benefit that actually matters?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 22, 2012, 10:02:52 AM
I believe this (http://www.edge-online.com/features/julian-gollop-xcom) is the interview you're referring to? And I believe you are talking about this statement.
Quote
Is there anything about X-COM you'd like to see being addressed in this remake?
 Yeah, of course. Mainly in the realm of accessibility, which some people might call 'dumbing down' In the early 90s of course you didn't have in-game tutorials or help, because it was all in the big thick manual. Today people do not read manuals, they expect the game to teach them how to play it. Which is fair enough. In Shadow Wars we put a fair amount of effort into making the game accessible, teaching the systems as you're playing the game, hopefully keeping the player interested as they're learning.
This is the major thing, but it doesn't mean you have to dumb anything down in the sense that the full complexity of the game would be eventually revealed to the player as he learns all the systems. That was one thing that was difficult about the original UFO [X-COM was known as UFO in the UK]. It put you there and forced you to make decisions straight away without much idea of what you were supposed to be doing!
You massively misinterpreted his line of thinking. There wasn't anything wrong with the fundamentals. The game just wasn't transparent enough to the player. Everything is in the manual, no tutorial, stats that lied to you like hit chance since it doesn't account for obstacles, hidden stats, poor UI. What he really wanted is to give players more information, a better UI and more direct control over character development(Mentions Skill trees later). Of course he would make a very different game now as technology has advanced greatly not only in power, but concepts and expectations.
With Shadow Wars he went a little too far.
Quote
If you have some boring turns where you're just moving guys around without any real interesting decision-making then turn-based games can get very dull very quickly. It's difficult to get right. We had this issue with Shadow Wars - although I tried to minimise it by stressing it to the level design team, but it's not easy to do. But the temptation is to make things big and complex and therefore ultimately a bit dull.
When you entered a new level you instantly knew how the level designer wanted you to play the level for the most optimal result. They over engineered the levels to eliminate one problem only to create another. It became less about tactics and more I have to go here and there, oh look, there is some convenient cover, I so wonder what's going to happen. To make up for it, instead of exploiting the one weakness you have which is numbers, they threw robots at you and upped the stats of the mooks +1(If you have played SW, you will know what I mean). At no time do you ever come to a situation that says, "Hey there are too many to take on, lets tactically retreat". It also meant there was one way to play a level and having an overpowered team was only partially to blame. Still a neat game, but I wish there was more to it.

FE:SS could have done with more modernising as seen with the other games in the series, but one of the great things about it is that it is tactically diverse something GR:SW doesn't really have. It means as your team increases in size, you have more options as how to go about a level. With just chapter 6, there are multiple ways to achieve victory. You can do a fighting retreat right, hold a defensive position at start, send the flyer with/out a bodyguard for the civilians, airdrop the lord to assassinate the boss, choose not to save the villagers, use Seth or god forbid, use Zerg tactics or some combination. The only thing that is mandatory about the map is the victory condition (Kill Boss) and have something to clear the fog of war, whether it's by scouting or more efficiently, use of torches (You get given one from last level) and staffs from a shop you can go back to before the battle.

I just can't see how you have managed to reload 20 times and not figured out a play style that suits you. Bosses never move and will only engage if attacked, even then they don't move. The AI is very predicable, always takes the bait and is suicidal. Any more abusable, and it becomes a puzzle game if not for the stats and the random number god.

Post chapter 6 completion note:Saving all the villagers gets you an Orions Belt for your archer so you can upgrade on level 10+, but for best result upgrade at level 20
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on January 22, 2012, 12:06:40 PM
As others have noted, this game's story isn't the greatest.... The GC entry is definitely my favorite from both a storytelling and gameplay perspective. (The Wii game is too long for its own good.)

More advice for those struggling and restarting several times:

1) Play defensively. Often it is advantageous to let the enemy strike first, since you can more easily respond to injury at the start of your turn. Inch your front line up so that only a few enemies are in range of attack at a time, and few baddies may attack a single unit (since your units will be buffering each other).

2) Consider beating a chapter even with men down. Then, save into a different slot and retry the mission. Playing through a full chapter will give you a better idea of the battle rhythm and how to best attack the boss. And if you get too fed up retrying, you can just take your losses and continue onward.

3) Excercize your healers. I heal whenever I can for EXP, even if its only on a unit with 1 HP from max health. Healing rods are cheap and readily available in the armory.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 22, 2012, 01:46:43 PM
Yeah, I don't think there are any bonusses given for being offense or defense in attack as there are in these games sometime.

Most of the time I'm playing defense.  I look at where all the monsters can strike and place characters where only 1 or 2 can get them.  If you go offensive there are normally multiple Opponents that can get you and they'll lynch you.

I abused that bosses don't move in the tower to level all my characters capable of range quickly.  If I could buy Longbows Neimi be set.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 22, 2012, 03:13:40 PM
HAHAHA. I made 30K+ with virtually no risk in arena.

Pick an archer equivalent since they don't have a weapon that they are explicitly weak to. Also pick as low level as you can. The arena will always pick other ranged characters like magic users and other archers which you will almost always out class. Innes in chapter 10 is perfect for this as he is level 1 and there is also a dancer you can level at the same time. Bring healers and clear the map except for the boss. Once you get to level 10+ more dangerous foes start appearing, at 14+ it's rocket arena, which means it's time to quit or you can get a couple levels higher than that, but you better be quick with that maths since it stops being risk free. The only thing you use up are heals and mends which also level up your healers.

Attacking first is useful if you want to have first strike for a one hit KO. Or critical targets like Archers VS Flying, or range VS non-range assuming that doesn't immediately place that person in danger the next turn.

The most important thing is to pick your battles. This cannot be stressed enough. Fight only when the odds are in your favor and it doesn't leave you in danger afterwards. There will be times where high speed enemies pop-up meaning they will have the initiative, but they will have very obvious weaknesses or you are already near a choke point if you have incoming cavalry. Make them fight on your terms. Tactically retreat. Very few bonus objectives are hard timed and mostly they have a soft timer you can stop by killing a single unit.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on January 22, 2012, 03:40:45 PM
My goal is to get as far as possible for this RetroActive, so constant restarts are not an option. If I can beat the mission without a unit, I figure that I have a chance to beat the next one too. If this attrition funnels me into a "nonstandard game over" then that is one of the most interesting outcomes I can imagine for this feature! But I am now up to Chapter 9 and have plenty of dudes, just no healers. Main issue seems to be dwindling medicine -- where can I get more???
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 22, 2012, 04:33:42 PM
Go back into the shops in previous towns on the over world map. If you have the cash, you can get the meds. Problem with that is it's more expensive than healers and staffs per heal for fewer HPs especially on higher levels and you miss out on the EXP, plus taking up a slot and the healers can become a very versatile or powerful class later. Which means you end up having to grind for more money for more items, but without healers, you can't effectively grind arena for money or use the tower for EXP/items.

Chapter 10 can get you 4 powerful units.

However in chapter 11 and 12 you will have a chance to get another (2)healer(s). Another way is to promote your magic users early (10+) so they can use wands, but they will start at level E wands and you lose up to 10 levels worth of stat growth! You can keep losing about one character per chapter, assuming you recuit everybody, the problems are obvious, lost equipment, EXP, stats and most importantly tactical flexibility. You are about half way through the game, so it it's not as long as a lot of people make it out to be, but a lot of people are making it hard on themselves trying to brute force the game instead of stoping and thinking. You don't have to be a chess master about it, but think at least beyond the current turn and you can very effectively simulate the current turn with some quick maths with details battle information. I usually only restart once or twice a chapter to see the scripted movements and the odd mistake. You can try to stick to a core group which can over level them, but once again, you would be losing flexibility.

Consequences, consequences, consequences.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Glad0s on January 22, 2012, 06:50:57 PM
LOL, Jonny seems to be playing this the exact way I am.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on January 22, 2012, 07:23:33 PM
My magic users have all died too, but it looks like I'll have a new one in the latest chapter. Every soldier left behind! I place no value on Fire Emblem lives!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 22, 2012, 10:40:40 PM
*facepalm* :Q

*Snide with hint of snark*I think the Russians in World War 2 had a better track record than you. Followed with something really, really, mean*/Snide with hint of snark*

The only other game with survivable attrition rates this high is X-com. It is cheaper to scout with warm bodies than to use drone vehicles unless you value lives in anyway. Mission casualty rates of 90+% is not unheard of in a rout. Rush'n'Attack!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 22, 2012, 11:38:28 PM
My magic users have all died too, but it looks like I'll have a new one in the latest chapter. Every soldier left behind! I place no value on Fire Emblem lives!
Man, I'll have to remember this when its time pick leaders in the post apocalyptic world.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 22, 2012, 11:57:13 PM
Oh, whatever!   I just finished chapter 6, and the bit with the bracelet was so predictable.  No, it was stupider than predictable.  Argh, stupid anime story.  Why do I pay attention?

On another note, I was only able to save 1 of the villagers from the spider.  Will that affect me in any way?  Would it have been better to save all 3, other than saving innocents from a horrible gruesome death and stuff.  You know, a benefit that actually matters?

Saving all three would have netted you an item that promotes archers, of which there is only one in the game (The other bow-user is already promoted when you get him). So if Neimi's already dead, don't sweat it. If you're not going to use Neimi, don't sweat it. And if you are going to use Neimi but either 1) find the secret shop (unlikely), or 2) are willing to use the Master Seal (a promote-almost-anyone item) on her, then don't sweat it.

Neimi's a pretty good character, so losing out on her promotion isn't a great thing, but you can definitely create a good group without her.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Hey Einstein! on January 23, 2012, 11:26:58 AM
Hi, this is my first post.


I love me some turn based JRPG action and I've been wanting to get in on a Retro active for a while, so this seemed perfect. But boy oh boy this game is walking a thin line between love and hate for me.


I love the look of the game and the way the units control. But I've taken a strong dislike to how stupidly easy to kill some units are and the lack of any kind of resurrection despite some of the well put arguments in favour of it on this thread,).
For me, this game design just means that I end up playing a very defensive game, which is starting to get dull. Keeping Ross alive is a grind-fest, pure and simple.


What I HATE HATE HATE is how the story is told through those endless talking head cut scenes. I sit down with my 3DS for a 30 min lunch break and have to endure this tedium when I want to be playing the game or saving at the end of the level I've just played. Didn't Intelligent Systems realise this was going to be played on a handheld?


The last SJRPG I played was Sega's iOS rehash of Shining Force, it's showing it's age but I thought the dialog and story telling techniques were light years ahead of Sacred Stones.


I'm about a quarter of the way through so I'll be interested to see if I make it to the end and how I feel about the death system and story then.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 23, 2012, 12:49:45 PM
If want to speed through the game more, turn text speed up to max, skip battle animations. It makes the game rather dull, but speeds things up massively. Be sure to turn on detailed battle information since it lets you predict the outcome of any single battle that doesn't involve critical hits on the enemy side.

If you don't like the story enough to care, hit start during the talking heads. Skips them. Intelligent Systems made it so you can play it at home or on the move by giving you the options to skip things.

Initially the game is defensive as your team just isn't that strong and you might have to cheese it a little like airlifting Green NPCs. But later, as you level up, taking the offensive become more of an option as brute force can be used assuming you haven't been throwing away your people to the literal wolves. but care must still be taken as the computer almost always has the advantage in numbers and aren't afraid to have a Kill:death ratio of 1:10. It's also one your biggest advantage assuming your own hubris doesn't get in the way especially when the level designer starts using critical weapons, changing the engagement ranges, ambushes.

Ross and people like him are long term rewards and the rewards are that you get a murder machines. They reap death and pack them in nice bales for easy delivery.

Consequences, consequences, consequences.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Hey Einstein! on January 24, 2012, 06:37:45 AM
Thanks for the advice. I'm an Advance Wars veteran so i sped up the text and cut the battle animations pretty early on.


I realise you can skip the cut scenes but I would like to have some idea whats going on in the story, so skim reading and repeatedly hitting the A button is my solution. But for me they still drag on and on & are inconvenient when my lunch hour is coming to an end. For example, I'd have let Ross die a long time ago if I didn't know that I had his dad fighting for me, I just can't do that to the guy!


Anyway, my point is that we all know there are better ways to tell a story then this. Show don't tell! etc


Hey I would appreciate a pro tip. How exactly do you get the support feature to work?
I've read the guide, checked the unit status's between chapters and had various units stood next to each others for plenty of turns, but I'm getting nothing. Anybody know what I'm doing wrong?


ta very much!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 24, 2012, 08:34:09 AM
It's a GBA game, talking heads is the best they can do. Shining Force get portraits which is no different to talking heads and the odd picture (http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/Shining_Force_iOS/index.html). At the time storage considerations meant large file sizes were uneconomical and the GBA had barely enough processing power to play movies if it had them assuming the compression didn't turn them into ice cream sprinkles. This game is only 9.74 MB in size. You can fit the entire GBA library on to a memory stick today.

To enable support between compatible units, you just need to park them next to each other at the end of the turn. After so many turns you get the talk option the next time you bring them side by side. Each support relationship take a different number of turns depending how close they are in the story. Brother and sister, Father and son, Mentor and student are close relationships that grow quickly in support levels. Then you have battle brothers, bodyguards, people in the same guild/companies that grow at moderate rates. Lastly you have rivals and relationships of respect that level up quite slowly. If there is no real relation, there isn't s support option. Support is nice as a bonus, but not critical and is hard to manage at the same time while staying alive. The best way to go about it if you really want them, is to cheese it by clearing a map of everybody but the boss then park them next to each other turn after turn.

Letting support levels go up organically during play is the better method as you only level up units you tend to use together.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: lolmonade on January 24, 2012, 08:37:40 AM
I'm liking the game so far, although i'm not too thrilled about the phrase "fog of war" I skimmed over.
 
I have a bit of concern over whether or not I'm leveling up all my characters adequately (i'm only at the beginning of Chapter 4).  I have 2 characters that basically steamroll over anything they cross, but the majority of my other characters have such low HP that I only feel comfortable letting them chip away at an enemy if I know that enemy will die in that round, being afraid that that weak character will get killed if the enemy survives the round.
 
On the other hand, I don't want my weaker characters to be so weak going into the later Chapters that they essentially become incapable of doing anything positive with them other than being a meatshield.
 
I've had no deaths so far, but am sure they will start dropping like flies as I go farther along.  I don't have the patience to re-start battles over and over again, so I believe I will also be one that goes the route of letting people stay dead to keep the pace going as long as I can still get victories.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 24, 2012, 09:04:42 AM
I wouldn't worry about the fog of War too much. The chapter before you encounter it you get a torch and the ability to go shopping for supplies like the powerful torch staff for wand using magic users. If you are only at Chapter 4 you still have the chance to even out your team and improve the weaker characters. They shouldn't be that weak unless you have been using Seth, the newbie EXP sucking trap, based on what you have said, you have. The only other character that powerful is your lord who you do want to level in line with the rest of your crew.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 24, 2012, 10:09:03 AM
Have to say the Erika does not keep up with everyone else.  I make it a point to try get here combat even though losing her is an instant loss.  I know I'll always have to have her but she just isn't leveling up or dishing out the damage of equivalent level units.  I don't expect her to hit like my Berserker or any of the Upgraded units but, I do expect here to be more in line with the Cavalier.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 24, 2012, 10:39:52 AM
Erika and sword masters like her are offensive glass cannons great at first strike. They have ridiculously high critical rates and very high dodge rate which works against all attacks except the sniper which has a special skill. Their HP is a little low, but they have decent defense, weak resistance and massive amount of speed. Early on you use light weight weapons like the slim sword and Rapier. Their damage doesn't come directly from their weapons but their ability to crit and not to take damage.

Maxed out, they can take on entire groups by themselves assuming you don't miss match them against magic unless it's a first strike. If you want to take on magic, the Pegasus Knights are your best bet as they bypass magic users high resistance.

In later chapters the numbers start getting a bit screwy as critical become more of a factor until you can almost count on them as much as flat damage.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 24, 2012, 10:52:25 AM
Erika and sword masters like her are offensive glass cannons great at first strike. They have ridiculously high critical rates and very high dodge rate which works against all attacks except the sniper which has a special skill. Their HP is a little low, but they have decent defense, weak resistance and massive amount of speed. Early on you use light weight weapons like the slim sword and Rapier. Their damage doesn't come directly from their weapons but their ability to crit and not to take damage.

Maxed out, they can take on entire groups by themselves assuming you don't miss match them against magic unless it's a first strike. If you want to take on magic, the Pegasus Knights are your best bet as they bypass magic users high resistance.

In later chapters the numbers start getting a bit screwy as critical become more of a factor until you can almost count on them as much as flat damage.
I just started doing the tower to grind my Pupil and I have Erika on the front line to take the hits because its level 1 tower and she could use the XP.  She's at least lvl 12 and I don't have the exact number where I can get it now.   On the Zombie's using the Slim Sword she is only doing about half their bar.

Also does all the levels in Dancer increase my dancers movement?  She's relatively easy to grind and I really like her to have more mobility.  Shoot if I could get her to be able to keep pace with my farthest traveling unit I say that be a good investment of time.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 24, 2012, 11:13:37 AM
You are still early game as she promotes later. Give her a steel sword backup as higher level weapons do more damage, but slow you down. You only have to have an Attack speed(Bottom stat in detailed battle info) >=4 to get a second strike. Any faster is a waste. Each character has 3 weapons for varying speeds and situations. Early on, if you want something to really die, break out the Rapier.

The dancer's movement doesn't increase without items. I find her very useful even with the relatively slow movement as she can be a "clone" of any character.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 24, 2012, 11:21:10 AM
I'm liking the game so far, although i'm not too thrilled about the phrase "fog of war" I skimmed over.
 
I have a bit of concern over whether or not I'm leveling up all my characters adequately (i'm only at the beginning of Chapter 4).  I have 2 characters that basically steamroll over anything they cross, but the majority of my other characters have such low HP that I only feel comfortable letting them chip away at an enemy if I know that enemy will die in that round, being afraid that that weak character will get killed if the enemy survives the round.
 
On the other hand, I don't want my weaker characters to be so weak going into the later Chapters that they essentially become incapable of doing anything positive with them other than being a meatshield.
 
I've had no deaths so far, but am sure they will start dropping like flies as I go farther along.  I don't have the patience to re-start battles over and over again, so I believe I will also be one that goes the route of letting people stay dead to keep the pace going as long as I can still get victories.

Regarding fog of war, there are only three such maps in the game, so don't sweat it too much. On the flip side, two of those three tend to be the toughest maps (chapters 6 and 11. Chapter 11 is particularly annoying, depending on what decision you made after chapter 7).

As for levelling, like oohboy said, make sure you're not letting Seth kill anything. What you should instead do is strip him of all weapons, and then use him to lure enemies towards your group (keep everyone else out of the enemies' range). Gang up on the lured enemies with your weaker units, and thus let them soak up the EXP.

Have to say the Erika does not keep up with everyone else.  I make it a point to try get here combat even though losing her is an instant loss.  I know I'll always have to have her but she just isn't leveling up or dishing out the damage of equivalent level units.  I don't expect her to hit like my Berserker or any of the Upgraded units but, I do expect here to be more in line with the Cavalier.

 Eirikia will never be a powerhouse, I'm afraid. Just keep here levelled enough to avoid dying easily, but don't expect her to match your other attackers. She'll hold her own, though.
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on January 24, 2012, 06:44:26 PM


Anyway, my point is that we all know there are better ways to tell a story then this. Show don't tell! etc


You obviously don't see the Tolstoy-esque weaving of narrative and language that is going on in this game.  I'm constantly impressed by how expertly the game tells its story.  For example, the title to Chapter 8 is "It's a Trap!"  With the exclamation mark.  Now, with such a subtle title, you would never ever guess what kind of situation your heroes find themselves in.  No, I won't spoil it for you.   I guess you'll just have to play it to know what the title "It's a Trap!" alludes to. 

Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 24, 2012, 11:50:13 PM


Anyway, my point is that we all know there are better ways to tell a story then this. Show don't tell! etc


You obviously don't see the Tolstoy-esque weaving of narrative and language that is going on in this game.  I'm constantly impressed by how expertly the game tells its story.  For example, the title to Chapter 8 is "It's a Trap!"  With the exclamation mark.  Now, with such a subtle title, you would never ever guess what kind of situation your heroes find themselves in.  No, I won't spoil it for you.   I guess you'll just have to play it to know what the title "It's a Trap!" alludes to. 


They are going to watch Star Wars?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on January 25, 2012, 02:13:52 AM
I have always been intrigued by the Fire Emblem series, but for whatever reason I've always found it difficult to dig into. While playing The Scared Stones, however, I think I've identified why that is. While playing through the first 7 or so chapters of Sacred Stones I realised that it often confounds conventional video game wisdom. At least in te early stages of Sacred Stones I found that it was in my interests to use my weakest characters, resulting in me benching those who were either stronger or more suitable for the enemy being faced. With Fire Emblem the desire to win a battle with as few causalties as possible is tempered by the need to use weaker characters in order to make them stronger and (eventually) useful. It can be very rewarding when you find this balance but it can also be a little frustrating.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 25, 2012, 12:55:20 PM
I have always been intrigued by the Fire Emblem series, but for whatever reason I've always found it difficult to dig into. While playing The Scared Stones, however, I think I've identified why that is. While playing through the first 7 or so chapters of Sacred Stones I realised that it often confounds conventional video game wisdom. At least in te early stages of Sacred Stones I found that it was in my interests to use my weakest characters, resulting in me benching those who were either stronger or more suitable for the enemy being faced. With Fire Emblem the desire to win a battle with as few causalties as possible is tempered by the need to use weaker characters in order to make them stronger and (eventually) useful. It can be very rewarding when you find this balance but it can also be a little frustrating.
The Tower really helps with that.

I just got Ewan and I knew already that he was suppose to be a great character once level.
Did level 1 Tower with him killing everything got him to lvl 10 after the first run.  Turned him into a shaman, got him a weapon, and went back in.

That time I literally kept everyone in the back and walked him through to kill all the monsters because I wanted to see how good he was. In that 1 run he went from a lvl 1 Shaman to a Lvl 9.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 25, 2012, 02:14:32 PM
Yeah, Ewan is really good in the game.  He is the only way you can get a shaman in the game and he is a beast as a Druid. Be sure you don't upgrade him till he reaches 20 though, as you won't get his full stat growth if you do it any earlier.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 25, 2012, 08:47:17 PM
I got Ewan to 20 Shaman with barely any work and just playing around with him got him to level 4 Druid.  All without progressing to the next chapter...
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on January 26, 2012, 12:40:59 PM
Just finished Chap 9....must say, the game has definitely gotten a bit easier after Chap 7, but I think it's more me really figuring out how to play the game more than the game itself decreasing in difficulty.   I had to restart Chap 8 a couple of times, but that's because I was stupid and careless, which this game punishes severely.  I basically sent Eireka to go kill the boss, thinking at LVL 12 she'd take care of it easily, with no range support, no healers, no mounted rescue units anywhere within range.   Yup, I deserved that restart.

I think I've said a lot of crap about this game in this thread, but to be perfectly honest, I love it.  It's not amazing, 10/10, innovation, but....it scratches that itch that games like FF tactics and other tactical RPG's scratch, that mental puzzle solving, chess kind of itch married with a snowball-like sense of progression.  It's flawed, but it is incredibly fun, and though it has frustrating moments, none of them are boring.  I think for any game, that's quite an accomplishment.  I said before that I don't blame anyone for wanting to quit playing this game, but at the same time, what everyone has said is true, it is a fun game, and the frustration dies down after Chap 7, not because the game has changed, but because you have changed.  I think if I went back and started the game over again, I could probably breeze through it without restarting a single time.

Oh, and by the way, at the end of Chap 8 when you get a major choice, I went with one of the choices but I'm really curious about the other one.  Are those a set of missions that I will never get to play unless I go back to an old save or restart the entire game?  Is one better than the other?  I'm being vague because I don't want to spoil anything.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 26, 2012, 01:42:16 PM
Oh, and by the way, at the end of Chap 8 when you get a major choice, I went with one of the choices but I'm really curious about the other one.  Are those a set of missions that I will never get to play unless I go back to an old save or restart the entire game?  Is one better than the other?  I'm being vague because I don't want to spoil anything.
From what I've read you can't get certain units going down one path or the other and some units you still get but at different times.  I know there are different missions in each and its not just a character swap.  Though I would assume they share the last mission or two.  I don't realy know.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 26, 2012, 04:45:34 PM
I think I've said a lot of crap about this game in this thread, but to be perfectly honest, I love it.  It's not amazing, 10/10, innovation, but....it scratches that itch that games like FF tactics and other tactical RPG's scratch, that mental puzzle solving, chess kind of itch married with a snowball-like sense of progression.  It's flawed, but it is incredibly fun, and though it has frustrating moments, none of them are boring.  I think for any game, that's quite an accomplishment.  I said before that I don't blame anyone for wanting to quit playing this game, but at the same time, what everyone has said is true, it is a fun game, and the frustration dies down after Chap 7, not because the game has changed, but because you have changed.  I think if I went back and started the game over again, I could probably breeze through it without restarting a single time.

Oh, and by the way, at the end of Chap 8 when you get a major choice, I went with one of the choices but I'm really curious about the other one.  Are those a set of missions that I will never get to play unless I go back to an old save or restart the entire game?  Is one better than the other?  I'm being vague because I don't want to spoil anything.

I'm glad to hear your sentiments in the first paragraph, especially since they're ones I share completely.  ;D It's like I said before: the series loves to punish you for making mistakes, but it's quite rewarding when you make the "right" choices (i.e. utilize the game's mechanics correctly).

That said, your complaints about the story are still valid.  :P: :

As for your question, someone remarked earlier that the game is surprisingly short. That's because you'll miss a third of the game's content, depending on what choice you made. For the record, one choice, Ephraim is harder than the other, to the point where that Chapter 11 is probably the toughest level in the game, especially on Hard Mode. There are also three different characters that you miss out on until near the end game, depending on what choice you made, but in terms of quality I'd say that's a wash. Story wise, there are also a few things you'll only learn by making the other choice. All in all though, I'd say that choosing Ephraim is the more rewarding option, but beginners are better off making the opposite decision.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: lolmonade on January 26, 2012, 09:55:09 PM
My wife has been swiping my 3DS away from me each time I'm not looking to play Mario 3D land...

Finally lost someone (the male magic caster...forget his name).  I've been keeping the ****-wrecker out of battle to bulk up all of my pansy characters.  Enjoying the game so far.  Someone mentioned the story being bad, but I haven't noticed anything terribly offensive for video game standards. 

Stopped tonight at the first fog of war level.  Definitely little to complain about given that I didn't pay anything for the game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Hey Einstein! on January 27, 2012, 05:33:40 AM
It's a GBA game, talking heads is the best they can do. Shining Force get portraits which is no different to talking heads and the odd picture (http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/Shining_Force_iOS/index.html).


I totally disagree. Talking Heads is just exposition and it's unnecessary despite hardware limitations, which is what my Shining Force example was about.


In Shining Force you wonder around a town/castle/village before and after battles where you bump into characters and have short conversations with them and get a feel for the place you are in and how the story effects the people in that area. Yes, when they speak you see a little portrait of them, but the method of introducing them is far more dynamic. Most importantly you witness events happening in front of you during mission chapters using in game graphics. I've seen a little of this in Fire Emblem, but mostly it's just cut scenes full of talking heads and stilted dialog. This method leaves me cold.


Shining Force doesn't have better actual game play but the story telling is in a different league so I felt far more engaged playing it. I did not intend to start a 'which turn based game is best' discussion though.


As for my own progress; I'm sick of restarts so I'm letting characters stay dead now and I'm enjoying the game much more, despite struggling to look my self in the mirror or sleep at night. I guess it's one of those games where it takes a while to find your own rhythm of play.


Now I just have to learn to live with the guilt.....
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: oohhboy on January 27, 2012, 07:05:39 AM
For a game like this wandering around towns is no more than filler and padding. Besides, you met the townsfolk during the battles inside the towns. They do use the in game engine to produce cutscenes.The plot isn't the most original since it a bunch of people trying to stop the hell on earth. The blame lies with the writing, not the telling of the story.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on January 27, 2012, 08:21:07 AM
For a game like this wandering around towns is no more than filler and padding. Besides, you met the townsfolk during the battles inside the towns. They do use the in game engine to produce cutscenes.The plot isn't the most original since it a bunch of people trying to stop the hell on earth. The blame lies with the writing, not the telling of the story.

Yeah, but the story itself is pretty bad.   I can already guess what's going to happen in the story, what's up with the emperor of Grado, why he wants to do what he wants to do, etc....because I've seen anime before, and it's always the same story again and again.   Maybe I'm wrong about where the story is going.  I'd sure like to be wrong. But I doubt it.

With that said, I think if I skipped every single story element, or if there was no story at all and this game was just a collection of random battles, I'd be pretty bored and disengaged from the game itself.   Isn't that funny?  Sure, a good story and good writing would be nice.  But even if it's a bad, cliche'd, irrelevant story, we still need it to enjoy the game?  Am I the only one who thinks this way?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 27, 2012, 09:05:30 AM
The Story in Fire Emblem is not meant to be enjoyed by itself.

If you extracted the Story and just read it, yeah, its not as developed as you need for written literature.
If you extracted just the gameplay you have some enjoyment but you be wondering why am I doing this.

You put the two together and you start to fill out the characters and let you know more about the relationships around you.  The conclusion of this story isn't the goal of the story.  This story doesn't want you to get to an end point.  This story wants to make your units a lot less generic.  Thats why the social aspect is in there.  Why you will see people object and put in there two cents.

The plot in this story is just something to help reinforce the decisions made by the characters.  Its not the main point.  The main point is for you to build how you think that character will grow while still allowing enough flexibility to personalize them to your own understanding.

Take Ross.  We know Grado was his Father.  We know that Grado use to be a great Warrior.  Ross starts weak because his Father wanted to protect him from the Soldier life.  All the upgrade choices for Ross are whether he wants to follow his fathers footstep or rebel a little and become his own man.  No matter which branch you pick he can be a Warrior like his Father.

Without the story I wouldn't have known that which makes his choices mean less.  I personaly never expect much from the overarching plot of the stories in the genre.  Its hard not to have similar plots because of gameplay, I'm going to give everyone in the world a puppy would be a hard plot to work with etc.  What I like about the good games in this genre when it comes to story is relationship and the character story.  Makes you feel closer to them when you know something about them and there not just Archer #1 or Sword User 3 Variant B.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: lolmonade on January 27, 2012, 09:53:24 AM
So, for those of us that like this game and are interested in more, any other Fire Emblem or non-Fire Emblem games that the experts here could suggest?  This and Civ IV have really revved up my strategy game itch.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: gojira on January 27, 2012, 10:14:53 AM
So, for those of us that like this game and are interested in more, any other Fire Emblem or non-Fire Emblem games that the experts here could suggest?  This and Civ IV have really revved up my strategy game itch.

Well I gushed about the Gamecube and Wii games earlier in this thread.  I also very much enjoyed the first Fire Emblem game on Gameboy Advance.  The DS one is interesting since it's a remake of the very first FE game.  But it had prerendered sprites instead of hand drawn ones.  So the game has much less character.  But if you turn off battle animations anyway it probably doesn't matter. 

For non-FE games the Advance Wars games are great.  I also like the Final Fantasy Tactics series and Tactics Ogre.  A little bit older, but still very good are the Shining Force games.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 27, 2012, 10:59:52 AM
So, for those of us that like this game and are interested in more, any other Fire Emblem or non-Fire Emblem games that the experts here could suggest?  This and Civ IV have really revved up my strategy game itch.

I'll second all of gojira's recommendations, especially the other Fire Emblem games and the original Final Fantasy Tactics. Shining Force II is also easily available and high quality. The DS game Might and Magic, Clash of Heroes is also worth your time. And of course I heartily endorse the Ogre Battle series.

As for good turn-based strategy titles, Panzer General's great, as is Master of Orion II. X-Com's been brought up in this discussion already, and for good reason. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms games are also generally good, although I prefer the older, simpler titles. And there's the granddaddy of them all, Europa Universalis. The titles in this group are more management-oriented than the first group; think of them as being closer to Civilization than Fire Emblem.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 27, 2012, 01:09:36 PM
Alright Ewan as a Druid is OP.  Chapter 13 was the first real mission that I had with him and I wanted to level up is Anima affinity.  I stepped in there and saw it was a survival mission.  I was like ok lets see how tough he is.  I walked him into the enemy forces alone.  3 turns later I had killed the boss and ended the mission.

Though I'm going to have to redo it because Amelia thought it be a good idea to attack Ewan and promptly died.  She had a death phrase so I'm assuming I can recruit her at some point.  Being a Newbie she must be really powerful eventually.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 27, 2012, 02:05:42 PM
Alright Ewan as a Druid is OP.  Chapter 13 was the first real mission that I had with him and I wanted to level up is Anima affinity.  I stepped in there and saw it was a survival mission.  I was like ok lets see how tough he is.  I walked him into the enemy forces alone.  3 turns later I had killed the boss and ended the mission.

Though I'm going to have to redo it because Amelia thought it be a good idea to attack Ewan and promptly died.  She had a death phrase so I'm assuming I can recruit her at some point.  Being a Newbie she must be really powerful eventually.

Regarding Amelia, you are correct sir. Make her a Knight, then a General, and watch as you get a double-attacking powerhouse who shrugs off physical and magical damage. She can only move five spaces, though...

Regarding Ewan, part of it is that he is indeed a powerhouse, but you have to keep in mind that he's probably over levelled at this point. Because you promoted him "early" he'll be less powerful in the late game. Fortunately, the main quest is designed to let you win with characters who have only gained about 30 levels, instead of 40, so you'll still be able to beat the game.

Also, judging from the order of recruitment you've presented, am I correct to assume that you chose Eirika after Chapter 8?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 27, 2012, 03:01:52 PM
Regarding Ewan, part of it is that he is indeed a powerhouse, but you have to keep in mind that he's probably over levelled at this point. Because you promoted him "early" he'll be less powerful in the late game. Fortunately, the main quest is designed to let you win with characters who have only gained about 30 levels, instead of 40, so you'll still be able to beat the game.

Also, judging from the order of recruitment you've presented, am I correct to assume that you chose Eirika after Chapter 8?
Yep. 
Though you are wrong about Ewan.  Unless you can hold off promoting recruits from when they said you can promote them.

Promotion Path:
Level 10 Pupil -> Level 1 Shaman
Level 20 Shaman -> Level 1 Druid
Now he's a level 7 Druid

So I should still have 13 levels of Druid which means he'll be leveled 50 levels total from his Pupil form being but since Recruits start at an effect -10 level He will be at level 40 when fully leveled.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Nbz on January 27, 2012, 07:10:36 PM
Though I haven't played in a few days I did make some significant progress over the weekend as I was away and could play a lot while travelling. I'm really quite annoyed that I didn't have internet access, because I completely forgot about the reward you get for saving the villagers in the fog chapter, which I failed to get. I really wanted to use Neimi and to upgrade her as early as possible, but now it looks like I'll have to wait for either the master seal or make sure I have enough money for an Orion's Bolt at the secret shop, which shouldn't be to hard seeing as I remember where to pick up the Silver and Gold cards. Otherwise things have been going pretty well, apart from my haphazard loss of Franz in Chapter 8. TBH though Franz isn't the greatest of cavalry units, and I much prefer Forde/Kyle, who were much higher levelled than Franz anyway, though that was mainly because I knew about Orson's Betrayal and loss as a playable character beforehand.


I have already beaten the game twice once going with Eirika and once going with Ephraim, so I decided to choose Eirika's path this time mainly because that was the one I did first before and it is the least fresh in my mind. I have to say though that I abused the hell out of the Tower of Valni when I got it open. I grinded Ross up to around level 15 alongside Lute, even though I don't quite have their promotion items yet, they are definitely 2 units that I want in my consistant squad. I also bumped Gilliam and Vanessa up to level 20 and promoted them both, Gilliam to the obvious choice of General and Vanessa to a Wyvern Knight, seeing as I plan to promote Tana to a Falco Knight later, and I prefer splitting their promotions in that fashion.


Chapter 9 was a bit of a pain in the ass though, I had to restart 3 times, mainly because I was going for perfection. I wanted to stop the bandit that spawns at the top of the map from destroying the village so that I could grab the item from it and I also wanted to recruit Amelia, which was tougher than normal because I didn't have Franz. It meant I had to move all my units within her range before she departs on turn 12 and I had to take all weapons off of Eirika so that she wouldn't kill Amelia on the counter attack. I managed to get through it though and wound up getting what I wanted so it was all good in the end. I feel though that I'm gonna start blasting through chapters now, seeing as I have a few promoted unit and a couple who are on the verge of promotion. I also don't really plan on using many of the units you get in the later chapters as pre-promoted guys, barring a couple, I'd like to be using my original guys for the majority of the playthrough, but we'll have to see how far my patience will take me, especially when I reach Chapter 18, which if I recall is a gruellingly long map with some real heavy annoyances.


I haven't really been concentrating too much on support convos, I never really bother with them that much, but I want to develop the Joshua/Natasha one seeing as I have never used Natasha fully before and I have a feeling that she is going to become a pretty powerful unit. I think those two would work really well together on the battlefield, especially with the support boosts. Colm and Neimi is the easy and obvious support relationship to develop, but I find it difficult to keep them together on the field of play, mainly because I let Colm run off towards the nearest chest/door and let Neimi do her own thing.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 27, 2012, 09:01:59 PM

Though you are wrong about Ewan.  Unless you can hold off promoting recruits from when they said you can promote them.

Promotion Path:
Level 10 Pupil -> Level 1 Shaman
Level 20 Shaman -> Level 1 Druid
Now he's a level 7 Druid

So I should still have 13 levels of Druid which means he'll be leveled 50 levels total from his Pupil form being but since Recruits start at an effect -10 level He will be at level 40 when fully leveled.

For some reason I thought you'd promoted your characters after they hit level 10. Since I'm wrong, your Ewan will indeed be a terror on the battlefield. He's also demolishing everyone because he's about fifteen levels above the enemy! ;D
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 29, 2012, 10:28:34 AM
Amelia.  Got her the first promotion to knight.  Then I did the tower with here as a level 1 knight and proceed to go three levels worth of the tower without using any other unit.  The only thing stopping me from going on was that the 135 Iron Lances I had stocked her with was not enough.

Just went to see how far I could get in the tower just for kicks.  Level 6 and thats not because of man power.  It was simply because I just didn't have the supplies to continue.  I'm going to have to bench my Ewan and Amelia now for a while and bring them back out later.  They are an army in and of themselves.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Sarail on January 29, 2012, 07:00:07 PM
FINALLY. Got past my breaking point in Chapter 9. Got the Dragonseal AND finally recruited Amelia. Now let's get this show back on the road. >_<
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 29, 2012, 11:18:50 PM
GOing to have to redo Chapter 15...
I've decided to call my group the Hidden Lords Corp.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Hey Einstein! on January 30, 2012, 08:30:32 AM
Well well well, I'm not as far along in Sacred Stones as most of the folks posting on here,
but despite my moaning about the excessive exposition and talking head cut scenes I am now having a GREAT TIME with this game. 
And it's a darn good thing as it's detracting me from the fact that my copy of Resident Evil Revelations has been delayed in shipping.



To mirror an earlier quote but to be more specific, can anybody recommend any other strategy rpgs on the DS or IOS? Please no obvious ones (Final Fantasy Tactics, Other Fire Emblem /Advance War titles, Shining Force, Tactics Orge) as I've played a lot of those. Can anyone recommend anything a bit further off the beaten track?


Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 30, 2012, 09:41:12 AM
Well well well, I'm not as far along in Sacred Stones as most of the folks posting on here,
but despite my moaning about the excessive exposition and talking head cut scenes I am now having a GREAT TIME with this game. 
And it's a darn good thing as it's detracting me from the fact that my copy of Resident Evil Revelations has been delayed in shipping.



To mirror an earlier quote but to be more specific, can anybody recommend any other strategy rpgs on the DS or IOS? Please no obvious ones (Final Fantasy Tactics, Other Fire Emblem /Advance War titles, Shining Force, Tactics Orge) as I've played a lot of those. Can anyone recommend anything a bit further off the beaten track?


Thanks in advance!

Disgaea (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/game/17845)  got released on DS at one point.  I'm sure there more I just can't think of.
If you can find a GBA Cart cheap Dungeon Dice Monster (http://www.metacritic.com/game/game-boy-advance/yu-gi-oh!-dungeon-dice-monsters) Is engaging strategy game. (That one is really off the beaten track.)
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Glad0s on January 30, 2012, 09:54:12 AM
Well, I've finally hit my road block. I'm on the chapter titled "Father and Son" (#14, I believe), and I have tried it around 5 or 6 times, only for a few of my characters to die once I reach the boss. This is the first time I've been stuck so far, and up to this point I've actually found the game fairly easy. I think I may have let a few too many people die. Now I only have 7 party members.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 30, 2012, 12:52:18 PM

To mirror an earlier quote but to be more specific, can anybody recommend any other strategy rpgs on the DS or IOS? Please no obvious ones (Final Fantasy Tactics, Other Fire Emblem /Advance War titles, Shining Force, Tactics Orge) as I've played a lot of those. Can anyone recommend anything a bit further off the beaten track?


For the DS, the closest things I can think of would be Might and Magic and Valkyrie Profile. The former I own, the latter I've heard things about.

Well, I've finally hit my road block. I'm on the chapter titled "Father and Son" (#14, I believe), and I have tried it around 5 or 6 times, only for a few of my characters to die once I reach the boss. This is the first time I've been stuck so far, and up to this point I've actually found the game fairly easy. I think I may have let a few too many people die. Now I only have 7 party members.

 If the problem is just the boss himself, try the following: clear the boss' room. Equip Ephraim with his special anti-armor lance (I can't remember the exact name) and healing items, preferably Elixirs, and check to see if the boss can kill Ephraim in one hit.
 
 If not, move Ephraim adjacent to the boss, but do not attack. On the enemy's turn, the boss will attack Ephraim, and thus take severe damage. Heal if needed, then repeat until the boss is dead. This strategy lets you heal on your turn while still dealing steady damage.
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: lolmonade on January 30, 2012, 01:31:42 PM
GOing to have to redo Chapter 15...
I've decided to call my group the Hidden Lords Corp.

Oh ****...later in the game you get to name your group?
 
I'm going to call mine the Lolmonade stand!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 30, 2012, 01:45:12 PM
GOing to have to redo Chapter 15...
I've decided to call my group the Hidden Lords Corp.
Oh ****...later in the game you get to name your group?
 
I'm going to call mine the Lolmonade stand!
No, but they don't actually call it anything in the game so as the Overlord Intelligence directing the Will and Actions of this Group, I retain the right to name them as I see fit.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 30, 2012, 01:51:41 PM
So after hearing on RFN this morning how the discussion on this game was being pushed back for next episode, I decided to finally pop the game in my Gameboy Micro (yes I have one and I love it xD) and play it. It has been about a year or so since I last played this game and I have to say, my opinion on it so far doesn't change at all. I still don't care about the story in this game and always find myself skipping cutscenes after the 2nd or 3rd chapter. Even on my first playthrough way back when this game came out I found the story a little melodramatic and kind of boring to say the least, which is funny as I really liked the one first on the GBA and Path of Radiance on GameCube, but it might be nostalgia and love for the main cast in those games that keep me coming back. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the characters in this game and as always, support conversation trees are always the best parts to read, but the overal plot I can't stand.

Back to my time with the game. I have only put about an hour into the game and after beginning to skip cutscenes after chapter 2 or so and changing my game settings so text move faster and only my favorite characters would have battle animations, I ended up mid way through level 5 without losing a single unit and having to restart. I know I am a Fire Emblem junky and all, but I am quite surprised how much easier this game is in comparison to the older on on GBA (Fire Emblem 7 or just Fire Emblem stateside). I am not even grinding really and Erica, Lute, Ross, and the first Pegasus girl have become some of my strongest units. I still need to train Colm and the archer chick in the next chapter, but these units are usually really hard to train without using the grind tower unlocked after level 7 or so. I mean, the gameplay is still great and I am enjoying it a lot, but I just remember the game being more challenging is all. Maybe it's cause I am older and play more defensively now, but maybe I need to go back and play Radiant Dawn for some really hard Fire Emblem action -_-

Quick Question before I go, has everyone how with Erica, cause I swear I haven't seem one person pick her brothers side of the story. I am planning to go with her brother as of now, but I was just seeing if anyone else was going to or has done the same. Of course this depends on how far I get today, but I am sure I can mange to get a few chapter done before tonight xD
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 30, 2012, 01:59:00 PM
Well, I've finally hit my road block. I'm on the chapter titled "Father and Son" (#14, I believe), and I have tried it around 5 or 6 times, only for a few of my characters to die once I reach the boss. This is the first time I've been stuck so far, and up to this point I've actually found the game fairly easy. I think I may have let a few too many people die. Now I only have 7 party members.

Lol! It sounds like your problem is the lack of units. 7 units on that map is a hard one. Then again, watched my cousin beat the game with only Erphrim, Seth, Erika, and Joshua and used every other character as death fodder. He was probably the worst strategist I have ever seen play the game and he beat the game faster then I did because of his tactics, so I guess it's doable under your conditions. It's just the later levels are a hell of a lot easier if your have units that you can put more responsibilities on xD
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 30, 2012, 02:01:38 PM
I'm Farily sure Glad0s has because Chapter 14 was different for me.

I have full intentions of going back through to see Ephraim's side.  I would love to pick up the Gamecube one but, I can really only play these time of time consuming games portably.
 
Well, I've finally hit my road block. I'm on the chapter titled "Father and Son" (#14, I believe), and I have tried it around 5 or 6 times, only for a few of my characters to die once I reach the boss. This is the first time I've been stuck so far, and up to this point I've actually found the game fairly easy. I think I may have let a few too many people die. Now I only have 7 party members.

Lol! It sounds like your problem is the lack of units. 7 units on that map is a hard one. Then again, watched my cousin beat the game with only Erphrim, Seth, Erika, and Joshua and used every other character as death fodder. He was probably the worst strategist I have ever seen play the game and he beat the game faster then I did because of his tactics, so I guess it's doable under your conditions. It's just the later levels are a hell of a lot easier if your have units that you can put more responsibilities on xD

As of now Ch. 15 I am seriously considering doing this chapter with only Ewan and Amelia just to see it happen.  In fact I think I could do it with just Amelia and enough ammo.
 
Though I probably bring Tethys to speed it along.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 30, 2012, 03:26:02 PM

Quick Question before I go, has everyone how with Erica, cause I swear I haven't seem one person pick her brothers side of the story. I am planning to go with her brother as of now, but I was just seeing if anyone else was going to or has done the same. Of course this depends on how far I get today, but I am sure I can mange to get a few chapter done before tonight xD

I made the other choice. On Hard Mode, of course, because I am a man and I declare my manhood by taking on meaningless challenges in obscure videogames. :P

Question for you though: you seem like the only person here who's in a position to have tried the Link Arena. Did you ever give it a go back in the day and, if so, how was it? I was always intrigued, but I didn't know anyone else who owned a copy of the game on the GBA, so I never got to try it out.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 30, 2012, 03:46:25 PM
...
I made the other choice. On Hard Mode, of course, because I am a man and I declare my manhood by taking on meaningless challenges in obscure videogames. :P
..
Are you a Muppet of a Man?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on January 30, 2012, 03:49:02 PM
...
I made the other choice. On Hard Mode, of course, because I am a man and I declare my manhood by taking on meaningless challenges in obscure videogames. :P: :
..
Are you a Muppet of a Man?

No, just a very manly Muppet. I sang a song about it and everything!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on January 30, 2012, 03:53:25 PM
...
I made the other choice. On Hard Mode, of course, because I am a man and I declare my manhood by taking on meaningless challenges in obscure videogames. :P: :
..
Are you a Muppet of a Man?

No, just a very manly Muppet. I sang a song about it and everything!
Why Hello Sheldon Cooper.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 30, 2012, 09:13:33 PM

As of now Ch. 15 I am seriously considering doing this chapter with only Ewan and Amelia just to see it happen.  In fact I think I could do it with just Amelia and enough ammo.
 
Though I probably bring Tethys to speed it along.


Chapter 15 is a VERY HARD MAP! It's easily one of the hardest levels in the game, and I can only imagine how Glad0s is going to fair up with that one xD. What does your team consist of? It could be the units you are using that is making it more challenging.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 30, 2012, 09:21:07 PM

Quick Question before I go, has everyone how with Erica, cause I swear I haven't seem one person pick her brothers side of the story. I am planning to go with her brother as of now, but I was just seeing if anyone else was going to or has done the same. Of course this depends on how far I get today, but I am sure I can mange to get a few chapter done before tonight xD

I made the other choice. On Hard Mode, of course, because I am a man and I declare my manhood by taking on meaningless challenges in obscure videogames. :P:

Question for you though: you seem like the only person here who's in a position to have tried the Link Arena. Did you ever give it a go back in the day and, if so, how was it? I was always intrigued, but I didn't know anyone else who owned a copy of the game on the GBA, so I never got to try it out.


You know, now that I think about it, I have only played and completeled one Fire Emblem game on Hard, and that was the previous one on GBA, and I did that on Hector Hard Mode xD. For whatever reason, I have never had the drive to want to play Sacred Stones on hard mode, but maybe I will get around to it someday xD.


To answer your question, yes I have played the Link Arena countless times in both this one and the previous game. I actually have two copies of each game, each with 3 teams so that way my friends didn't have an excuss when they said they didn't have the game. I guess I did it cause I hated deleting my saves and teams on the Link Arena when I was younger xD. To me, the Link Arena is alright. You don't really earn anything for winning and the strategy is taken away when you are just forced to pick units to fight. I do like the amount of units you have a choice of, but it usual boils down to teams of Joshua, Ross, Amelia, Ewan, and some random 5th character xD.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 30, 2012, 09:51:17 PM
Back again with a quick update on how I have been thus far. I am at about the 3-4 hour mark at this point and there where a few things I wanted to say:


1) Is anyone else finding the game to easy when they grind? During Level 5 (The level you aquire Joshua), I just kept using the Arena until I gained Joshua to level 11, Natasha to level 6, and Neimi to 12 before I finally got sick of the chapter and killed the boss with Ross to gain him to level 10 so he could premote from Journeyman to Pirate. I am really surprised with just how easy it is to get these weak characters up to there prime, but that is the best part of the game I guess. I am currently at Chapter 8 and have 2 units (Neimi and Joshua) who are already at level 15, with Erica and Colm at 10. Also, Ross is at like 6 or so and Vanessa is at level 9. I am just really surprised with my little set of units I guess xD.


2) Coming back to this game, I realize why I love these games so much: The portablity of this game is amazing. It really is the only game I can turn off the system, turn it back on, and be right back to where I was before. Granted, this can screw you over when you need to restart the mission, but for me personally, it does more good then anything. I have always been a really out and about guy, usually not having the luxury of playing a console unless it's the weekend or a day off, but that isn't every weekend either. Most of my gaming is done on the go and this game STILL TODAY has one of, if not, the best portablity of any game. It's one of the few games I can get away with playing at work, and I love the idea of being able to make a couple turns, and turning off the system and get back to what you where doing an hour later. I mean, personally, it reminds me a lot of Words with Friends (The Cell Phone game). I know they are two seprate games, the idea of portablity is identical. WwF is a game where you can make a turn, and then get back to it later without losing your progress. I mean, it's why most of the cell phone games strive today and you can even see this in Virtual Console games (On Wii for sure, but IDK about the 3DS as I don't have one). You only have a few minutes to play Chrono Trigger and you aren't by a save check? No problem. Just end the game on your Wii/iPhone (it's on both now) and you can get back to it when you have the time. Simply put, without Fire Emblem leading the way with this, I don't think we would be where we are with portable gaming. This of course might just be me xD
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: doug on January 31, 2012, 07:41:46 AM
This is my first Fire Emblem game, and I’m loving it so far. There’s no way I would have picked this up if it wasn’t for RetroActive. So glad to be taking part.

I’m not very far into the game. Each map tends to take me about an hour if I don’t restart. Is it normal to check what move every enemy can make before pushing forwards each turn, in order to make the best possible moves?

I totally agree with Da Jarvis about how great the auto-saving is. Run out of battery power, or suddenly need to stop playing? No problem: you’ll loose nothing. I wish all games worked like this. As far as I can tell, the suspend command does nothing and is just a user interface trick in case you don’t trust the auto-save.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 31, 2012, 02:45:50 PM
Each map tends to take me about an hour if I don’t restart. Is it normal to check what move every enemy can make before pushing forwards each turn, in order to make the best possible moves?

I totally agree with Da Jarvis about how great the auto-saving is. Run out of battery power, or suddenly need to stop playing? No problem: you’ll loose nothing. I wish all games worked like this. As far as I can tell, the suspend command does nothing and is just a user interface trick in case you don’t trust the auto-save.


No, that's what your supposed to do xD. I do that all the time, and it really comes in hand during the later levels.


The suspend command is just there for you to get back to the main menu if you don't want to go through the hassle of shuting off your system, but it is pretty much useless xD
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on January 31, 2012, 03:12:54 PM
I am at the 6 hour mark now and have found a rough spot where I have already had to reset twice because of me being greedy xD. I am on Chapter 12 of Ephrim's story and I forgot how hard it is to recruit Marisa since you have to do it with Ewen :(. I was about the beat the chapter and recruit her, but an archer came from the corner of the level and killed Vanessa :(. I will probably beat it later tonight, but I do appreciate the game getting harder after Chapter 10. Hopefully at this rate, I will beat the game before RFN talks about it xD
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on February 01, 2012, 09:13:26 AM

I’m not very far into the game. Each map tends to take me about an hour if I don’t restart. Is it normal to check what move every enemy can make before pushing forwards each turn, in order to make the best possible moves?


Only if you want to win.  :-)

I mean, I'm sure I'm only putting into words what everyone else is already doing, but you follow a procedure each time you play a map:  check what move each enemy can make, and plan your moves accordingly.  This is especially true due to the fact that the "AI" is VERY PREDICTABLE.  This is true in all turn-based strategy games, not just FE or Sacred Stones, but basically, the "AI" will always attack the weakest unit within its move/attack range.   Without fail.  For example, if Eirika and Natasha are both within the range of an enemy unit, that enemy will always attack Natasha, even though a smart enemy would probably attack Eirika because that would result in a game over, rather than just a casualty of war.  There also seems to be a "heirarchy of weakness" that the enemy categories all your units in:  attack damaged weak units first (magic users), then weak units, then range-only units, then damaged strong units, and strong units only if there are no other targets in range.  Which is hilarious and can be gamed to great effectiveness:   If one of your stronger units are low on health, move a magic-user at full health within the enemy's attack range.   It seems that the enemy will always go for the magic user, even if one attack on the weakened strong unit will finish it off.  It's a smart way to "save" your weakened unit.

Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: doug on February 01, 2012, 11:13:26 AM
I was going to ask whether the AI gets smarter or less predictable later in the game. I guess not.

I don’t remember the Advance Wars AI being so predictable (although it’s a few years since I last played it). Also because Advance Wars doesn’t have permanent death, you can successfully adopt a wider variety of strategies (such as making sacrifices). For these reasons, I remember Advance Wars battles as being more fun and rewarding, compared to a single map in FE.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on February 01, 2012, 12:34:07 PM

To answer your question, yes I have played the Link Arena countless times in both this one and the previous game. I actually have two copies of each game, each with 3 teams so that way my friends didn't have an excuss when they said they didn't have the game. I guess I did it cause I hated deleting my saves and teams on the Link Arena when I was younger xD. To me, the Link Arena is alright. You don't really earn anything for winning and the strategy is taken away when you are just forced to pick units to fight. I do like the amount of units you have a choice of, but it usual boils down to teams of Joshua, Ross, Amelia, Ewan, and some random 5th character xD.

Thanks for the response, I'd always been curious to know the details. I kind of figured it would be something like you described, although I like the fact that the developers put in something to reward those players who want to maximize their characters' potential. I'm surprised Myrrh isn't more popular though! Granted, a beefed-up Joshua or Ewan could probably pound her without getting scratched...


1) Is anyone else finding the game to easy when they grind?

 I find Sacred Stones to generally be easy even without grinding. I think it's because the majority of the enemies you fight tend to be the type that only attacks when you get in range, in contrast to the other titles where more enemies tend to swarm you. My memory could be playing tricks on me there, though.
 

I’m not very far into the game. Each map tends to take me about an hour if I don’t restart. Is it normal to check what move every enemy can make before pushing forwards each turn, in order to make the best possible moves?

This is especially true due to the fact that the "AI" is VERY PREDICTABLE.  This is true in all turn-based strategy games, not just FE or Sacred Stones, but basically, the "AI" will always attack the weakest unit within its move/attack range.   Without fail.  For example, if Eirika and Natasha are both within the range of an enemy unit, that enemy will always attack Natasha, even though a smart enemy would probably attack Eirika because that would result in a game over, rather than just a casualty of war.  There also seems to be a "heirarchy of weakness" that the enemy categories all your units in:  attack damaged weak units first (magic users), then weak units, then range-only units, then damaged strong units, and strong units only if there are no other targets in range.  Which is hilarious and can be gamed to great effectiveness:   If one of your stronger units are low on health, move a magic-user at full health within the enemy's attack range.   It seems that the enemy will always go for the magic user, even if one attack on the weakened strong unit will finish it off.  It's a smart way to "save" your weakened unit.

 Good observation! You're generally right, although there are a few wrinkles added in. Generally, the AI will prefer to attack any unit that can't fight back, i.e. clerics and disarmed characters, then ranged attacks on units without a ranged weapon. I have occasionally been surprised by an exception to the latter rule though: once, Neimi died because two magic users ignored a axe-armed Ross to double-team her. I was quite stunned, actually...

I was going to ask whether the AI gets smarter or less predictable later in the game. I guess not.

I don’t remember the Advance Wars AI being so predictable (although it’s a few years since I last played it). Also because Advance Wars doesn’t have permanent death, you can successfully adopt a wider variety of strategies (such as making sacrifices). For these reasons, I remember Advance Wars battles as being more fun and rewarding, compared to a single map in FE.

 Regarding the AI, you are misremembering. The first GBA title in particular was incredibly predictable: transports (full or not) always get hit first, then ranged units, then down the line. I'd complain, but exploiting those tendencies was basically the only way to beat the Advanced Campaign, especially that hellish bonus mission.
 
 As for whether FE or AW is better, I think that's quite subjective, so I'm not going to judge anyone for picking one over the other. You're definitely right that they offer very different experiences, in spite of both being turn-based strategy titles from the same developer. I personally lean towards FE, since I like the feeling of completing a battle without losing anybody, but Advance Wars is better for the feeling that you're in a large, sprawling battle. This is doubly so since AW can have up to four armies duking it out at once, for maximum chaos!
 
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 01, 2012, 12:41:33 PM
The AI in this type of game needs to be predictable at some level or it would be Rape time all the time.

Though in some interpretations of this genre the AI is Unit Dependent.
 
I put AW in a different sub-Genre then FE.  For a very clear reason.  Resource management and unit building.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 01, 2012, 02:57:03 PM
I am now at the 12 hour mark and I am just barely about to start Chapter 15. I know I should be further, but two things happend that just screamed, "EXPLOIT GAME HERE!!!"


1) During Chapter 12 (I am playing Ephriam's Route), I noticed there was a Arena there that I could train my guys in, and on top of it, if it looked like I was going to lose, I could just back out at the price of 700 gold or something. I ended up coming out with 3 characters promoted after level 20 (Joshua to Swordmaster, Forde to Paladin, and Kyle to Great Knight), Marisa at level 12, Ewan to Level 10 so he could promote at the begining of the next level to Shaman, and a spare 30,000 Gold in my pocket. That level alone took me about an hour and a half without the animations on and if I didn't grind, probably would of only took me 20 minutes. For me, that was the hardest level thus far, then again, I have heard 15 is exactly very fun either xD.


2) During the last chapter (Chapter 14), I recruited Rennac and gained access to the Secret Shop. With about 40,000 or so in my hand, I knew I could buy about 4 extra promotion items to get some of my units up to there next respective classes. All I had left was the Boss (Which was a big General with a huge sume of health), and after looking at the stats, I realized I could us Ewan to hit the boss and as long as I got him out of there before his turn (By rescuing him with another character), I could just gain experince endlessly since Ewan didn't even do enough Damage to even phase the guy. He would just recover that damaga on the next turn and while doing this with Ewan (I think he was at level 19 or something at that point), I realized the Boss hadn't even attacked me back. I checked the Boss's Stats and it turns out I had broken his only weapon because he had hit Ewan so many times xD. After having a good laught and a few double takes just to be sure, was only left with a smile. 2 hours later, Ewan is a Druid, Marisa is a Assassin, Ross is a Berserker, Cormag is a Wyvern Lord, Tana is a FalcoKnight, and everyone else on my team who is unpromoted is at level 16 or higher. I would of kept going, but Gerik pulled a 1% chance Critical Hit out of nowhere and killed the boss. I guess it's what I get for trying to exploit the game. It got to the point where the game wanted me to just stop xD.


I know the next level is supposed to be challanging, but I am worried it might be to easy most of my units are way stronger then they should be at this point. I didn't even struggle with Chapter 14 (Beat it on my First Try), and a lot of people said they really didn't like that chapter at all.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 01, 2012, 03:01:29 PM
I also agree with everyone about the AI, but Ceric has a point. The game would be really frustrating if there wasn't some kind of patern to fallow to help you out. I mean, could you imagine how many restarts there would be if the game only went for Lords and if say Bosses could move? That would be beyond evil. IDK if anyone has played Fire Emblem 6 (The one with Roy and the GBA game that only came out in Japan), but that game is brutal simply because the game targets the lord first before anyone and bosses aren't afraid to leave there spots to kill off your units.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 01, 2012, 03:06:01 PM

To answer your question, yes I have played the Link Arena countless times in both this one and the previous game. I actually have two copies of each game, each with 3 teams so that way my friends didn't have an excuss when they said they didn't have the game. I guess I did it cause I hated deleting my saves and teams on the Link Arena when I was younger xD. To me, the Link Arena is alright. You don't really earn anything for winning and the strategy is taken away when you are just forced to pick units to fight. I do like the amount of units you have a choice of, but it usual boils down to teams of Joshua, Ross, Amelia, Ewan, and some random 5th character xD.

Thanks for the response, I'd always been curious to know the details. I kind of figured it would be something like you described, although I like the fact that the developers put in something to reward those players who want to maximize their characters' potential. I'm surprised Myrrh isn't more popular though! Granted, a beefed-up Joshua or Ewan could probably pound her without getting scratched...



Yeah, I had one team with her, but the problem is she is weak to the same thing as the dragons are. So Bows, Magic, and Anti-Dragon weapons like Dragon Spear and Dragon Axe are her huge downside, and normally people bring those to Link Arena xD.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 01, 2012, 04:03:42 PM
Alright according to my timer I'm at 62 hours with this game on Chapter 16.

So I'm going way slower then I should.  Though I think a good chunk of that is were I forgot to back out of the game.

The flipside I'm pretty sure Ewan and Amelia could have soloed every Chapter since 13, (Yes the means Ewan would be soloing the mission you get Amelia.)

I'm tempted for kicks to buy a lot of Fire, since its the cheapest most use spell, and Iron Swords, same reason, and see how far up the tower I can get with just those two.

Right now though I'm trying to grind Knoll and Rennac.  I want to see a summoner.  I always forget about the Arena... I could use the gold.

Tethys is level 20.  I'm actually using her to tank for Knoll...
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Glad0s on February 01, 2012, 04:05:08 PM

As of now Ch. 15 I am seriously considering doing this chapter with only Ewan and Amelia just to see it happen.  In fact I think I could do it with just Amelia and enough ammo.
 
Though I probably bring Tethys to speed it along.


Chapter 15 is a VERY HARD MAP! It's easily one of the hardest levels in the game, and I can only imagine how Glad0s is going to fair up with that one xD. What does your team consist of? It could be the units you are using that is making it more challenging.


Oh no, if 15's harder than 14......Well, anyway, my party consists of Ephraim, Seth, Gilliam, Dozla, Duessel, Joshua, Gerik, and then by the time I get to the boss, Rennac.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on February 01, 2012, 04:07:57 PM
I mean, could you imagine how many restarts there would be if the game only went for Lords and if say Bosses could move? That would be beyond evil. IDK if anyone has played Fire Emblem 6 (The one with Roy and the GBA game that only came out in Japan), but that game is brutal simply because the game targets the lord first before anyone and bosses aren't afraid to leave there spots to kill off your units.

Yeah, Ghost Recon had a screwed up set of procedures like that for the "AI" where it would always go for the Russian girl, because that was a fail condition for the mission, which makes no sense, since losing any of your team was also a fail condition.


The AI in this type of game needs to be predictable at some level or it would be Rape time all the time.

HA HA HA HA!  I'm sorry, but that sentence just keeps making me laugh!   So funny and so true. 



 Regarding the AI, you are misremembering. The first GBA title in particular was incredibly predictable: transports (full or not) always get hit first, then ranged units, then down the line. I'd complain, but exploiting those tendencies was basically the only way to beat the Advanced Campaign, especially that hellish bonus mission.
 
 As for whether FE or AW is better, I think that's quite subjective, so I'm not going to judge anyone for picking one over the other.
 


Yeah, using transports as bait/bullet-magnets was a tactic that I relied on, because those suckers were fast and cheap.   But I would say AW was a different kind of game, much more chess-like than FE.  While there was no permanent death, there were situations where if you didn't do a certain thing early in the mission (capture a certain building, produce a certain unit, etc.) then you might as well restart the whole thing.  I would say I restarted missions and wasted time playing doomed battles just as much in AW as in FE.


Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on February 01, 2012, 04:17:49 PM

I think it's because the majority of the enemies you fight tend to be the type that only attacks when you get in range, in contrast to the other titles where more enemies tend to swarm you. My memory could be playing tricks on me there, though.
 


That's generally true, except for 2 exceptions (which I do not understand the reasoning for): 

1.  Spiders and Gargoyles- Those darn spiders seem to come after you and close range, though not necessarily all the time.  I don't understand exactly why.  I first noticed it in Chap 12 on Eirika's path, the one in the mountains where there's a bunch of them in the middle of huge mountain ranges.  But I think I've seen spiders stay still too.  It's weird.

2.  Fog of War maps - Generally (though not 100%) all enemies come after you and will close range on fog of war maps.  obviously, the boss doesn't move.  But I've also played fog of war maps where all the enemies will come after you except for a handful that stay in place, waiting for you.  I wonder if this is some scripting done by the level designer.  If so, why?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: doug on February 01, 2012, 05:37:49 PM

 As for whether FE or AW is better, I think that's quite subjective, so I'm not going to judge anyone for picking one over the other.


I wasn’t even suggesting that I liked one over the other, just that so far I’ve enjoyed AW battles more. You could say that in order to be competitive AW battles must be better, because it doesn’t have any other legs to stand on. FE is enjoyable at another level with its team building mechanics.

Regarding the AI, it’s purpose is to make the game fun and rewarding, not to attempt to make you lose. Of course as players we should be under the illusion that the enemy is trying to beat us. So I’m not saying the bosses should run in and slaughter weaker characters, but I think battles would be more interesting if the enemy employed more diverse strategies and wasn’t so predictable

I’m looking for more situations like noname2200’s having Neimi double-teamed, and the things leahsdad mentioned with spiders, gargoyles and fog: things I have to adapt to by revising my strategy.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 01, 2012, 05:58:03 PM
I like when these games give the illusion that everyone is playing by the same rules.  Some games go as far as showing the Victory Condition for the AI so, you know what they are going to try to do to some degree.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: leahsdad on February 01, 2012, 07:22:00 PM
I like when these games give the illusion that everyone is playing by the same rules.

Aah, but in this game, we know we aren't.  The "AI" outnumbers your party at least 2 to 1, and to balance that, your units are more powerful (on a 1 to 1 basis).   The "AI" doesn't seem to be affected by Fog of War (they know exactly where you are).  Conversely, the "AI" doesn't seem to use support units well (like healers) or they don't get them at all (like dancers).  [or at least, not yet where I am in the game].  And how wickedly awesome is dancing in terms of strategy?

In Advance Wars, you ARE playing by the same rules, (except for CO powers) and that's why it's such a different game than FE.  And that's why that game is really freakin' hard sometimes.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on February 01, 2012, 07:54:25 PM

Oh no, if 15's harder than 14......Well, anyway, my party consists of Ephraim, Seth, Gilliam, Dozla, Duessel, Joshua, Gerik, and then by the time I get to the boss, Rennac.

You'll be fine. Load up your Supply area with plenty of healing items and a Mend staff or two before the map. When the battle starts, you'll automatically gain control of three new units, one of whom can heal, and one who's a ranged attacker.

The key will be to focus all your energy on one boss, then shift towards the other. With so few units, expect a long battle. I suggest taking out the boss in the northwest first, since he's weaker and he has a sweet item in his possession that makes taking out the second boss easier. Just be advised that he's immune to critical hits, so in spite of the poetic justice of taking him down with Joshua, you might want to let someone who's less fragile do the fighting. Oh, and Seth and Gilliam will take forever to reach this boss, and then a second eternity to get to the other boss.

Good luck!



That's generally true, except for 2 exceptions (which I do not understand the reasoning for): 

1.  Spiders and Gargoyles- Those darn spiders seem to come after you and close range, though not necessarily all the time.  I don't understand exactly why.  I first noticed it in Chap 12 on Eirika's path, the one in the mountains where there's a bunch of them in the middle of huge mountain ranges.  But I think I've seen spiders stay still too.  It's weird.

2.  Fog of War maps - Generally (though not 100%) all enemies come after you and will close range on fog of war maps.  obviously, the boss doesn't move.  But I've also played fog of war maps where all the enemies will come after you except for a handful that stay in place, waiting for you.  I wonder if this is some scripting done by the level designer.  If so, why?

 Every enemy is scripted to do one or the other. Sometimes an enemy is scripted to remain stationary until a set number of turns have passed, although that's rare in this title. I gather that this is done for balancing purposes, but my personal favorite maps in the series are where you have to fend off hordes of aggressive units (see: Mission 19 in this game).
 
 Just to throw a monkey wrench into things, a handful of bosses in this game DO move to attack you, most notably in the tower and ruins. Just a little something to keep us on our toes, I guess?
 
I wasn’t even suggesting that I liked one over the other, just that so far I’ve enjoyed AW battles more.

 Sorry, I was trying to limit myself to that segment of the games as well, but I guess I didn't express that very well. What I was attempting to say is that the two series' battles play out pretty differently in my opinion, with Fire Emblem generally being more "intimate" and the Wars games being more sprawling affairs, and that while I favor the former I think the latter is very fun too. Different, but still generally high quality.
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 01, 2012, 10:05:24 PM
I like when these games give the illusion that everyone is playing by the same rules.

Aah, but in this game, we know we aren't.  The "AI" outnumbers your party at least 2 to 1, and to balance that, your units are more powerful (on a 1 to 1 basis).   The "AI" doesn't seem to be affected by Fog of War (they know exactly where you are).  Conversely, the "AI" doesn't seem to use support units well (like healers) or they don't get them at all (like dancers).  [or at least, not yet where I am in the game].  And how wickedly awesome is dancing in terms of strategy?

In Advance Wars, you ARE playing by the same rules, (except for CO powers) and that's why it's such a different game than FE.  And that's why that game is really freakin' hard sometimes.
There was a map where there where 2 of the horsie healers were on the enemy side, but they didn't move them the whole map.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Glad0s on February 02, 2012, 08:52:13 AM
Thanks to noname's strategy, I was finally able to beat chapter 14! Yes!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: LittleIrves on February 02, 2012, 12:22:34 PM
This is my first Fire Emblem, and though I'm not even that far into it (Chapter 6), I'm about 1000% more excited for the 3DS version now. A few quick thoughts (that have probably been stated above, so my apologies):

-I vote NO on voice-acting. To anyone who complains that this is like reading a book with all the text, um, that's the point right? I'd much rather imagine what these characters sound like than be forced to hear them in some unnatural way. Makes it quicker, too. Can read faster than I can listen to pre-recorded audio.

-Perma-death is a fascinating experience. This game is like the polar opposite of 3D Land in how it handles player lives. I think I have about 170 lives in 3D Land right now. Just played Chapter 5 in FE and two of my people died, and man does that hurt. Even if it screws me in the end, I can't make myself replay the level. Since that kind of defeats the point, right? If I lose, I lose. That's my story. Not every hero saves the day. Maybe he'll die valiantly. And if so, that will be my experience. Otherwise, the whole concept of permanent death is moot and becomes an impediment to playing the game (the annoyance of re-starting, etc.). I'll take my chances and feel the emotional tug of actual consequences.

-Umm....   it's complicated? But enjoyable enough so that even if you don't get all the quirks and nuances, there's a simpler way to play. Not as efficient probably, but I'm having fun. And because of the dire consequences, you learn fast how to better strategize.

-With about a half-dozen games on 3DS I want to be playing right now, I keep coming back to my little GBA Fire Emblem icon. A good sign. Good choice, Retroactive votes. Excited to hear the conversation....
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on February 02, 2012, 02:10:33 PM
In theory, I quite like these methodical and deliberate strategy games. I always get to a certain point, however, where the pacing becomes an issue. In particular, I seem to get frustrated by the penalty incurred as a result of a simple mistake. In the most recent chapter for instance I spent a good 45 - 60 minutes working my way cautiously across the map and although it was challenging I was doing quite well and leveling up nicely. As I was mopping up the few remaining enemies on the battlefield and making my way towards the boss I must have fell into a bit of a rhythm and I admittedly lost concentration, accidentally maneuvering Eirika within striking distance of the boss...game over. It was totally my fault, but I find it hard to remain interested after something like that.  I had the exact same experience with Ogre Battle 64 whereby I enjoyed everything about the way the game played, but was ultimately frustrated by the pacing and the penalty for losing. As a result the only strategy RPG I've actually seen to the end is Shining Force II.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 02, 2012, 02:15:09 PM
Alright according to my timer I'm at 62 hours with this game on Chapter 16.

So I'm going way slower then I should.  Though I think a good chunk of that is were I forgot to back out of the game.

The flipside I'm pretty sure Ewan and Amelia could have soloed every Chapter since 13, (Yes the means Ewan would be soloing the mission you get Amelia.)

I'm tempted for kicks to buy a lot of Fire, since its the cheapest most use spell, and Iron Swords, same reason, and see how far up the tower I can get with just those two.

Right now though I'm trying to grind Knoll and Rennac.  I want to see a summoner.  I always forget about the Arena... I could use the gold.

Tethys is level 20.  I'm actually using her to tank for Knoll...


Yeah, those two units alone are ridiculous xD. Also, lately that is all I have been using. Fire, Iron Sword, they are cheaper and I usually kill them regardless of what weapon I am using xD.


Knoll is the better as a summoner, but I always find him rather difficult to train. Rennac I hardly use because I alway promote Colm to a Rouge because Rennac is pretty terrible in comparison xD.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 02, 2012, 02:27:13 PM
In theory, I quite like these methodical and deliberate strategy games. I always get to a certain point, however, where the pacing becomes an issue. In particular, I seem to get frustrated by the penalty incurred as a result of a simple mistake. In the most recent chapter for instance I spent a good 45 - 60 minutes working my way cautiously across the map and although it was challenging I was doing quite well and leveling up nicely. As I was mopping up the few remaining enemies on the battlefield and making my way towards the boss I must have fell into a bit of a rhythm and I admittedly lost concentration, accidentally maneuvering Eirika within striking distance of the boss...game over. It was totally my fault, but I find it hard to remain interested after something like that.  I had the exact same experience with Ogre Battle 64 whereby I enjoyed everything about the way the game played, but was ultimately frustrated by the pacing and the penalty for losing. As a result the only strategy RPG I've actually seen to the end is Shining Force II.
I do think the Can't be Killed character of the mission should be slightly special and allow you to have a turn to rescue them after they've been knocked to Zero.  Make them unable to do anything after that till you get out of the chapter.

Alright according to my timer I'm at 62 hours with this game on Chapter 16.

So I'm going way slower then I should.  Though I think a good chunk of that is were I forgot to back out of the game.

The flipside I'm pretty sure Ewan and Amelia could have soloed every Chapter since 13, (Yes the means Ewan would be soloing the mission you get Amelia.)

I'm tempted for kicks to buy a lot of Fire, since its the cheapest most use spell, and Iron Swords, same reason, and see how far up the tower I can get with just those two.

Right now though I'm trying to grind Knoll and Rennac.  I want to see a summoner.  I always forget about the Arena... I could use the gold.

Tethys is level 20.  I'm actually using her to tank for Knoll...


Yeah, those two units alone are ridiculous xD. Also, lately that is all I have been using. Fire, Iron Sword, they are cheaper and I usually kill them regardless of what weapon I am using xD.


Knoll is the better as a summoner, but I always find him rather difficult to train. Rennac I hardly use because I alway promote Colm to a Rouge because Rennac is pretty terrible in comparison xD.
Colm I couldn't get leveled.  Rennac I'm doing ok with.

On Knoll some strategic Tower play and I got him to level 20 pretty fast.  Changed him to a Summoner and now he's level 6 Summoner.  The trick was I had a tank for him and let him clean up, either Tethys or Amelia with no weapons (She actually got a full level from just being attacked...), was what I used.

I do think it sort of stinks you can have only 1 summoned creature and when they kill someone Knoll doesn't get the XP for it.

He is definetly a Summoner.  Unlike Ewan, who I can walk into a warzone and ignore, Knoll is fragile.  Ewan was pretty invisible before being a Shaman but Knoll every battle was a trial.  I'm glad I did the work though because he can be quiet powerful.  Also that mean I now have another Healing capable unit.

I haven't been able to get any of my Healers even close to 20 and that's with a lot of unneeded healing in the tower.  1 HP of Damage Heal.  I really think they should have given more XP for healing then they do.  At least 10 per time like with Tethys Dancing.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 02, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
Umm....   it's complicated? But enjoyable enough so that even if you don't get all the quirks and nuances, there's a simpler way to play. Not as efficient probably, but I'm having fun. And because of the dire consequences, you learn fast how to better strategize.


I know what you mean. Usually you don't even get into the complicated stuff until multiple playthroughs. I didn't know about Special Tile Bonuses like placing units in Trees and Thrones until my 4th playthough of Fire Emblem 7 (the first one on the GBA). There are other stuff to learn to, and things start getting really complicated when you get up to Gamecube and Wii game xD.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 02, 2012, 02:56:23 PM
I haven't been able to get any of my Healers even close to 20 and that's with a lot of unneeded healing in the tower.  1 HP of Damage Heal.  I really think they should have given more XP for healing then they do.  At least 10 per time like with Tethys Dancing.


I see. Well, the Healers can be quite good if you train them properly. They can easily become some of the most powerful untis in your arsenal as they can easily max out there Staff to S rank and they can be pretty deadly to additions to any team. Natasha makes a great Bishop and the ability Slayer really helps out when you are going through the tower or just fighting the monsters-only missions later on in the game. L'Arachel is a amazing Valkeryie or Mage Knight depending on if you need Light or Anima magic. Moulder is alright, as he is the only Healer that can become a Sage, but there is no point after you beat the game since all you can really do is fight Monster-Only Maps and complete the Tower and Ruins.


I find healers really easy to train. They get the same amount of EXP no matter how much health they recover and what the amount of EXP you gain is really based off the staff you use. The more advanced staffs will give you more EXP. If you just heal often and every turn and bring them to every battle, they usually hit level 20 pretty quickly. I already have Natasha as a Bishop and L'Arachel is 39 EXP away from hitting 20 xD.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 02, 2012, 02:56:49 PM
Umm....   it's complicated? But enjoyable enough so that even if you don't get all the quirks and nuances, there's a simpler way to play. Not as efficient probably, but I'm having fun. And because of the dire consequences, you learn fast how to better strategize.


I know what you mean. Usually you don't even get into the complicated stuff until multiple playthroughs. I didn't know about Special Tile Bonuses like placing units in Trees and Thrones until my 4th playthough of Fire Emblem 7 (the first one on the GBA). There are other stuff to learn to, and things start getting really complicated when you get up to Gamecube and Wii game xD.
Really?  At least in this one when you go over a tile it tells you what it will add to Defense and Avoidance.  I noticed that quickly because it was a number on my Map UI.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 02, 2012, 02:58:57 PM
I haven't been able to get any of my Healers even close to 20 and that's with a lot of unneeded healing in the tower.  1 HP of Damage Heal.  I really think they should have given more XP for healing then they do.  At least 10 per time like with Tethys Dancing.


I see. Well, the Healers can be quite good if you train them properly. They can easily become some of the most powerful untis in your arsenal as they can easily max out there Staff to S rank and they can be pretty deadly to additions to any team. Natasha makes a great Bishop and the ability Slayer really helps out when you are going through the tower or just fighting the monsters-only missions later on in the game. L'Arachel is a amazing Valkeryie or Mage Knight depending on if you need Light or Anima magic. Moulder is alright, as he is the only Healer that can become a Sage, but there is no point after you beat the game since all you can really do is fight Monster-Only Maps and complete the Tower and Ruins.


I find healers really easy to train. They get the same amount of EXP no matter how much health they recover and what the amount of EXP you gain is really based off the staff you use. The more advanced staffs will give you more EXP. If you just heal often and every turn and bring them to every battle, they usually hit level 20 pretty quickly. I already have Natasha as a Bishop and L'Arachel is 39 EXP away from hitting 20 xD.
I'm Jealous.  I bring them to every battle and heal as often as possible and I'm only level 12 or so with Moulder and all the other ones are lower then that.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on February 02, 2012, 03:09:03 PM
I haven't been able to get any of my Healers even close to 20 and that's with a lot of unneeded healing in the tower.  1 HP of Damage Heal.  I really think they should have given more XP for healing then they do.  At least 10 per time like with Tethys Dancing.

Healing even 1 HP with a Heal staff should be netting you at least 11 exp. before promotion, and you get more with Mends or Physics. That's weird that you're getting so little.

A few things you can do to speed things up. Jehanna and Raustens' shops both sell staffs that let you recover from status effects or increase a character's Resistance. Doing either one will net you about 30 exp. If you've got the cash to blow, why not purchase a bunch of Barrier Staffs (staves?) from one of those places and use repeatedly during fights?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 02, 2012, 03:16:43 PM
I am on Chapter 16 now, with only 6 more units to promote until I have my full team promoted. I think Colm is at level 14 or so, Amelia and Lute are at level 17, Gerik is at level 16, L'Arachel is 39 EXP away from hitting 20, and Neimi is at level 18. I have no idea if the next chapter is really that hard, but I hope I can finish them off in this chapter. Even though I have been switching character's in and out so other units can catch up, I have noticed I alway seem to bring 4 unit with me No Mater What (Aside from Ephraim obviously xD)


1) L'Archel - Just an overal suberb healer. She has great moblity, her high luck and speed help her miss a lot of deadly hits, and she can tank a lot of magic attacks thanks to her high resitance stat. I can't wait to promote her to Valkeryie she can become that much more of a key player.


2) Marisa - I LOVE ASSASSINS! They are my favorite class in the GBA Fire Emblems and they can be vital player. Joshua makes a better Sword Master, but Marisa is a killer Assassin. Thanks to her absurdly high luck and thanks to her Samir weapon, she can have anywehre fro 40-60% Critcial Hit Ratio! Also, her Silncer ability can ever slaughter the last boss if you get super lucky. Overal, she is just a really helpful unit and she seems to get me out of even the most tight of situations.


3 & 4) Tana and Cormag - These two have been my key scouting team pretty much since I got them! Tana makes for a great compliment to Cormag who can tank psychical attacks and deal a lot of damage, but is really fragile to magic users. Tana can take on Magic users like no tomorrow, and she has high enough speed and luck to have miss a good amount of times, not to mention a pretty good strenght stat. Now what makes these guys great is the fact they have one of, if not, the best support benafits in the game. Tana's already pretty good offensive potential skyrockets if you manage to gain a A rank support with Cormag and Cormag gains a buff on he offensive capablities as well, making this duo just flat out instane. Even against Bow units, Cormag can usually tank them and only take about 7-11 points of damage depending on the bow user, but this isn't a problem since Cormag can have anywhere btween 50-60 HP when you max out his levels. And to top it all off, once you get the item that makes flyers immune to bows... yeah, that's pretty much the dream team. I always send the around to the harderst areas together with L'Arachel tagging behind to heal them just incase. These two defiantly are my favorite units and will never start a mission without them!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 02, 2012, 03:17:21 PM
I haven't been able to get any of my Healers even close to 20 and that's with a lot of unneeded healing in the tower.  1 HP of Damage Heal.  I really think they should have given more XP for healing then they do.  At least 10 per time like with Tethys Dancing.

Healing even 1 HP with a Heal staff should be netting you at least 11 exp. before promotion, and you get more with Mends or Physics. That's weird that you're getting so little.

A few things you can do to speed things up. Jehanna and Raustens' shops both sell staffs that let you recover from status effects or increase a character's Resistance. Doing either one will net you about 30 exp. If you've got the cash to blow, why not purchase a bunch of Barrier Staffs (staves?) from one of those places and use repeatedly during fights?
I also have a money problem.  I always buy the cheapest weapons because they are just as effective with most of my units, 1 Weapon use = 1 Kill, and I have less then 5k gold on Chapter 16.

3,182g to be precise.

Also I've gotten only 1 other support besides the first gimme.  Even though a lot of my units just stand there by each other a lot while I'm leveling someone else.  I must just be playing this game wrong.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 02, 2012, 03:18:42 PM
Umm....   it's complicated? But enjoyable enough so that even if you don't get all the quirks and nuances, there's a simpler way to play. Not as efficient probably, but I'm having fun. And because of the dire consequences, you learn fast how to better strategize.


I know what you mean. Usually you don't even get into the complicated stuff until multiple playthroughs. I didn't know about Special Tile Bonuses like placing units in Trees and Thrones until my 4th playthough of Fire Emblem 7 (the first one on the GBA). There are other stuff to learn to, and things start getting really complicated when you get up to Gamecube and Wii game xD.
Really?  At least in this one when you go over a tile it tells you what it will add to Defense and Avoidance.  I noticed that quickly because it was a number on my Map UI.
LOL! I guess just never noticed what that little box meant my first times playing this back when I was like 12 xD
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 02, 2012, 03:21:42 PM
I haven't been able to get any of my Healers even close to 20 and that's with a lot of unneeded healing in the tower.  1 HP of Damage Heal.  I really think they should have given more XP for healing then they do.  At least 10 per time like with Tethys Dancing.

Healing even 1 HP with a Heal staff should be netting you at least 11 exp. before promotion, and you get more with Mends or Physics. That's weird that you're getting so little.

A few things you can do to speed things up. Jehanna and Raustens' shops both sell staffs that let you recover from status effects or increase a character's Resistance. Doing either one will net you about 30 exp. If you've got the cash to blow, why not purchase a bunch of Barrier Staffs (staves?) from one of those places and use repeatedly during fights?
I also have a money problem.  I always buy the cheapest weapons because they are just as effective with most of my units, 1 Weapon use = 1 Kill, and I have less then 5k gold on Chapter 16.

3,182g to be precise.
Intersting. Hopefully there will be a chance to for you to Arena grind later in the game, as that can neat you a lot of money very quickly, not to mention can help boast characters that normally struggle to gain EXP quickly. If there is another chapter that wiil let you do that, you should definallty take advantage. Plus, you can train your healers by healing the character who came out the Arena. Last I can remember, only chapters 5 and 12 allowed you to use the Arena. If someone else can name another level farther in the game, that would be fantastic.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on February 02, 2012, 03:23:48 PM

I also have a money problem.  I always buy the cheapest weapons because they are just as effective with most of my units, 1 Weapon use = 1 Kill, and I have less then 5k gold on Chapter 16.

3,182g to be precise.

Also I've gotten only 1 other support besides the first gimme.  Even though a lot of my units just stand there by each other a lot while I'm leveling someone else.  I must just be playing this game wrong.

Hit up the Tower and bring a Rogue with you. The treasure chests tend to hold expensive things, and the higher floors in particular have enemies that drop valuable goodies. You're past the point where you can abuse arenas (and fun fact: the sequels ditch them completely), so until you reach the Ruins the Tower would be your best bet.

Or you can just say "screw it" and promote a healer early. I don't recommend it, but I've done so myself once or twice.

Edit: Thinking about it, you may actually have more cash in your storage than you think. Have you tried selling off all your gems, as well as junk you're never going to use?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Glad0s on February 02, 2012, 10:23:54 PM
Crap....well, as I guessed, now I'm stuck on Chapter 15. I can pretty much clear out the map, but the boss in the northwest always kills at least one of my party members, and I'm not willing to lose any party members at this point.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 02, 2012, 11:21:38 PM
Crap....well, as I guessed, now I'm stuck on Chapter 15. I can pretty much clear out the map, but the boss in the northwest always kills at least one of my party members, and I'm not willing to lose any party members at this point.
Who do you have for the mission? It's the Dragon Guy you are having trouble with, yeah?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Sarail on February 03, 2012, 12:29:30 AM
Crap....well, as I guessed, now I'm stuck on Chapter 15. I can pretty much clear out the map, but the boss in the northwest always kills at least one of my party members, and I'm not willing to lose any party members at this point.
Who do you have for the mission? It's the Dragon Guy you are having trouble with, yeah?

This is where I'm stuck at now, too. I've cleared the entire map, found all of the hidden items, but I can't figure out who to use to kill each of the bosses. My party consists of:

Eirika, Joshua, Gerik, Moulder, Vanessa, Seth, Colm, Ross, Lute, Saleh, Amelia, and Neimi / and, of course: Ephraim, Knoll, and Deussel.

I can hit Valter with Saleh...to which his HP goes down to half, but then he criticals Saleh -- BAM.. dead. I just can't have it this way. I'm a pass each mission with all party members alive kind of player -- or else it's FISSION MAILED. :'(

Help?
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 03, 2012, 12:42:13 AM
Chapter 15

I walked Amelia right up to the boss on the Left Upper Corner with no backup at all and let them duke it out.

I did the same with Ewan in the lower Right Corner boss.  Just walked him down there and murdered him.

The one in the upper left I had to get hit first before it would let me close enough to melee than its a back and forth.

The one on the bottom was just walking up and ending his life.

I don't have Saleh, I might have just not used them.  Though if your Ross is well leveled he should be able to take the incoming damage from Valter.  I probably use him.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 03, 2012, 03:04:06 AM

This is where I'm stuck at now, too. I've cleared the entire map, found all of the hidden items, but I can't figure out who to use to kill each of the bosses. My party consists of:

Eirika, Joshua, Gerik, Moulder, Vanessa, Seth, Colm, Ross, Lute, Saleh, Amelia, and Neimi / and, of course: Ephraim, Knoll, and Deussel.

I can hit Valter with Saleh...to which his HP goes down to half, but then he criticals Saleh -- BAM.. dead. I just can't have it this way. I'm a pass each mission with all party members alive kind of player -- or else it's FISSION MAILED. :'(

Help?


That's not a terrible line up. You have one Flyer and two Magic Users who are reliable, so that is a good thing. The biggest thing on this mission is to focus your attention on 3 things early on:


1) Defend the Right and Top sides of the map. Wryven Riders come at you from the right side and Pagasas Riders come at you from the top. It's nothing that Neimi and Lute can't handle, so just have those two playing defense with maybe another unit like Colm, Amelia, Deussel, and Knoll (Once they make their way over to your stronghold) since they can't move very far in this mission and are better to play defense with anyways.


2) You want to keep Ephraim and his little squad alive and there are two ways you can do that: First is to just hold your ground until the chapter is over or the second is the focus all of your efforts to having him join up with your main squard (Which I will get to in the next step). I would recomend the second opition over the first since A LOT really hard to kill guys will spawn my Ephraim eventually, so it's better to just focus his little group to join up with your main one.


3) Establish a main traveling unit and have them move as a giant group from boss to boss. In your case, have Joshua, Gerik, Seth, and Ross take the front lines of the group to meet the enemy and take the hits. All of those guys either have pretty solid Defenses or they have no problems avoiding hits. Behind them have Erica, Saleh, and Ephraim as clean up crew to either finish off easy kills or kill off anyone in the way of the front line moving. Behind the Middle Men have Venessa and Moulder to help with Healing. In tight spots, Venessa can rescue your injured member and litterly take them to the back lines where Moulder can come in safely and heal them.


Once you have established this set up early on, it's pretty much a cake walk from there. Just remember to take it slow and stick to the layout I have given you and you should be fine. Just be sure to keep track of your health and don't be afraid to us an entire turn to have your guys use healing items. Remember you alway want to play Defense first in this game. IDK if you are having problems with the boss on the left upper corner (Name escapes me at the moment), but just have your little group travel that way first to meet up with Ephriam's gain and beat the boss, then work your way to the diagonally towards Vaulter and by the time you get there, you should have only a few enemys left, that or only have him left to beat.


The key to beating Vaulter is to use magic units on him since his stupid item makes bow users useless (I hate that about him). If you say Saleh does the most damage, use him, but it seems like you don't know to exploit bosses yet, so I will give you a little tip on how to beat him easliy:


First, have Saleh attack Vaulter from a distance. Saleh should have the advatage from a far. If Saleh doesn't take damage from Vaulter, use the end turn command and allow him to attack Saleh (IDK if Saleh your build of Saleh can take a single hit from Vaulter but if he can't, don't do this obviously xD). After you have taken damage, use either Seth or Vanessa to rescue Saleh. After they have rescued him, they should be allowed to move again (A perk of the mounted units). Move them back away from the attack range of the boss (They don't move, so don't worry about being chased). Use whatever unit you didn't use to rescue Saleh (Venessa or Seth) and have them go next to the unit who rescued him and select the "take" command. Right after, select drop, pick a tile, and there you go, your unit is out of attack range. You can then use Moulder from a safe distance without having to worry about taking damage.


I hope this helps and just remember to think defense first and take it slow. Good Luck :)
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Hey Einstein! on February 03, 2012, 04:53:57 AM
I just just want to give a shout of approval to the RFN guys for allowing this forum to run it's course for a couple of weeks.
Like others of you have said, there are other 3DS games I could be playing right now but I keep coming back to Fire Emblem instead. And I am really enjoying reading about everybody's progress and tips on here.


Thanks to you all for making this a memorable experience!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on February 03, 2012, 05:14:32 AM
I just just want to give a shout of approval to the RFN guys for allowing this forum to run it's course for a couple of weeks.
Like others of you have said, there are other 3DS games I could be playing right now but I keep coming back to Fire Emblem instead. And I am really enjoying reading about everybody's progress and tips on here.


Thanks to you all for making this a memorable experience!

Hear, Hear!
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 03, 2012, 09:21:38 AM
Here's My Chapter 15.  I did it twice.  Any character that wasn't a major player I don't remember.

First Attempt,

This is always the kicks and giggle attempt.  I wanted to see just how powerful Amelia and Ewan had gotten.  Knowing I was just feeling the land this attempt I sent them both to a different boss.  Amelia got Tethys for support to make it faster.

I than proceeded to ignore everyone at there starting places.  This group was melee heavy. Ewan I hop from stronghold to stronghold when possible.  Amelia I just walk up as you would with a tank.

Both the bosses are dispatched the the Pagassi descend upon my men with no preparation.  It was a slaughter.  Restart.

Attempt 2:

Getting hip the the Pagasi trick I trade out melee to go with my archers and spell caster.  I also took out a healer.  My strategy was simple this time.

1.  Send out Amelia and Ewan to solo each of the bosses
2.  Form a tight knit ball of death for the Pagasi to run into
3.  Visit all the Homes
4.  Profit

I get my tight formation while watching waves of enemies be obliterated by Amelia and Ewan.  I also sent out Franz to do the houses not realizing the movement tax he get but I stuck with it giving him 2 turns with Tethys because it was good XP for her.  While Ewan was maiming the lower corner boss I noticed that the enemies Horsie Healers didn't move and made note I could ignore them.

The bosses where all cleared and here came the pagassi.   Even with the appropriate units they almost bested Neimi due to some poor positions.  I sent up Ross to save the day.

Pagassi crisis adverted I had ran into the house saying there was stuff in the sand so thinking I only had the Horsie Healers and a few stragglers to deal with I proceed to spread my group out in a search pattern.  By this time Ephraims group had arrived and they were mopping up the one in their corner and searching.  All was going well when all of a sudden...

Enemy units appeared in the upper portion of the map and deployed where Ephraim was.  He was pretty much all alone and the enemy was closing in.  I hunkered him down in the bottom stronghold ready for an onslaught and a possible reset.   The closest supporting unit I had was Knoll and he could only take care of the farthest one.

The enemy comes.  The first one strikes Ephraim, whose a level 15, takes damage.  Ephraim takes out the enemy.  A few enemy units get lucky and Ephraim is one good lick away from deaths sweet embrace.  The last unit.  He Dodges and Counter Strikes.  Victory is ours.

Then we searched all the map and Killed the Horsie Healers.


Though I have to say that Chapter 14 was more eventful.  At one point I had my party running away from a Berserked Franz and L'Archeal was down to 2hp after chasing down Rennac. (Which I found that conversation to be amusing.)
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 03, 2012, 10:11:40 AM
I'm going to have to redo Chapter 16...

I wasn't aggressive enough and the thieves are robbing me blind.
I also am getting bombarded by his two artillery mages.
I need to take his two healers because even though Amelia can go toe to toe she can't get that much damage out.

Though Knoll the Summoner is getting his trial by fire.

The next time around:

Forget about concentrating XP to a character.  Its quick slaughter time. Going to blaze through the hall.
Leaving 2 hardy units and a healing capable unit in the starting hall to defend the Horsie Rush.  This will keep them out of the Artillery Mages range.
I'm just going to drop Knoll and his summon in to take care of the Room O' Mages.  Use Rennac to support him and move to open the chest.
Kill the healers.  Why did I never learn from all those WoW bosses mistakes?
Get someone over to Maim the competing thief.  Its my stuff.  Mine Mine.
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 03, 2012, 12:41:57 PM
Just got access to the Final Chapter in the game. So far haven't had any problems since Chapter 15. The last chapter seems promising enough for a challange! Hopefully it won't be super hard xD
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: noname2200 on February 03, 2012, 12:49:11 PM
Crap....well, as I guessed, now I'm stuck on Chapter 15. I can pretty much clear out the map, but the boss in the northwest always kills at least one of my party members, and I'm not willing to lose any party members at this point.

A couple of ideas. Unless you got RNG screwed, Gerik should be able to withstand the boss' attacks, so give him a Silver Sword, some healing items, and replicate the strategy you used on the last level. As an added bonus, Caellech can't recover health between rounds, so this should go quicker than the last battle.

Alternatively, if Ephraim is around level 20 and you have an Axe-Reaver lance, now's the perfect time to bust it out. Gilliam's another strong candidate for this, especially if you made him a General.

Finally, the item that protects Caellach from critical hits can be stolen by a Rogue. I'm not sure if Rennac has enough speed to pull it off, but it couldn't hurt to try. Just make sure to rescue him with Seth or Duessel. Once Caellach's been stripped of his toy, Joshua and his Killer Edge can dispense some proper justice. Unless you get unlucky and have Josh get criticaled. :P:

I can hit Valter with Saleh...to which his HP goes down to half, but then he criticals Saleh -- BAM.. dead. I just can't have it this way. I'm a pass each mission with all party members alive kind of player -- or else it's FISSION MAILED. :'(

Help?

 This is why I suggest taking out Caellach first: his item prevents critical hits, and Valter gets criticals with depressing regularity (especially in melee!).
 
 However, if you want to take out Valter first, have your best axe-user equip a Wyvern Axe. If you don't have one, there's an enemy in this stage that can drop it. While Valter's item stops arrows from being criticals, it doesn't protect him from the 3x damage effect of the Wyvern Axe. This is still a tad risky, since Valter's pretty good at dodging, but it's one of the more effective ways of going about it.
 
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Da Jarvis on February 03, 2012, 03:22:31 PM
I don't think you have to steal the No-Critical Hit item to get it. I just obtained after I killed him. Also, one of the Berserkers by Vaulter has a Dragon Axe, but you have to make sure he is doesn't have it equided, otherwise he will drop his useless Hand Axe instead
Title: Re: RetroActive #21: Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
Post by: Ceric on February 03, 2012, 03:25:01 PM
You don't have to steal the No-Critical Hit.  You'll get it when he dies.

I think the suggestion of stealing it was to make him easier.