Topic: Do you really believe Nintendo "abandoned the core" last generation?

[Ian Sane]

For me it's not specifically HD but rather the improved graphics and production values that I expect from a new console.  That's how it worked for literally every other console ever made and suddenly Nintendo bucked the trend.  I wanted to see what we would get out of Zelda and Metroid with newer tech.  I used to associate Zelda with being grand and ambitious and by the standards of the entire industry, not just in comparison to what Nintendo is doing.  In the end the Wii Zeldas aren't really any step up from Wind Waker (and one of them was literally a Gamecube game).  Their are no improvements as a result of improved tech aside from the controls, which I didn't even like in the first place.

There's a "wow factor" in new consoles as the tech improves and the games push that tech to do things you haven't seen before.  Nintendo doesn't offer that anymore.  Zelda Wii U is going to be HD but what "sizzle" will it's presentation have that any PS3 or Xbox 360 owner hasn't already seen a hundred times already?  You can say that that sort of thing is superficial but it something that's enjoyable and Nintendo USED to offer it and once they started focusing on casual gamers they stopped offering it.  So you used to give US this but took it away once you started focusing on THEM?  Who wouldn't feel slighted by that?

And what really annoyed me is that casual gamers DON'T CARE.  So you ask me to compromise my hobby to include a new audience that was never willing to give that hobby a fair shake in the first place, did not contribute financially to the company's success, and has no passion for videogames or Nintendo and will leave the second the novelty has worn off?  What message does that send to your old audience?  So after 20 years of patronage we're supposed to make all sort of concessions for someone that will be a customer for what?  Three years?  They didn't even last the entire lifetime of the Wii and they sure as hell aren't buying Nintendo products now.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

I find this whole line of thinking arrogant anyways. Uncle Bob pointed out that in the past they had a handful of gimmicky games that used accessories and those were mostly flops, Duck Hunt was like Wii Sports it came with the system but sold separately nobody would have bought it.


There is a difference between the "core" Nintendo gamer and the "core" gamer which many "Nintendo" fans fail to take into account. Some of us are not Nintendo fans were are video game fans, and unlike the "cheerleaders" who blindly praise any one company over the other, we try to just enjoy the good games and ignore the crap. Obviously everyone has a different opinion on tastes and what a "core" game is, but the fact is Nintendo chose a different path than their competitors.

Sales alone do not tell the entire picture we all agree on that, and honestly I don't give a **** about sales because I don't need others to like what I like to reaffirm anything, I bought a Sega CD and was perfectly happy with it, most other people think of it as a piece of ****, so what.



Nintendo did something bold last generation, they bet everything on Motion controls. The reason why so many gamers found this odd is because up until that point they had traditionally made hardware that was either on par with or superior to their competitors. With Wii you had a HUGE gap between the two and that was the deal breaker. It isn't that Nintendo abandoned anyone type of gamer they abandoned their own established track record. (keep in mind I am keeping consoles separate from hand held something the cheerleaders forget to do)

I have owned every single Nintendo console up to the Wii, I was generally pretty happy with each except the Wii. With N64 I felt you had to own two consoles to get the full experience so with Wii that was not something new, with Game Cube you should have been able to get the exact same games as the other two but didn't due to sales and maybe lack of online, in the beginning nobody made use of the DVD and near the end games still didn't fill them clear full so it is debatable if that had any impact or not, from a features set maybe for some, but the reason for the lack of games was Nintendo themselves. They only time they ever had good robust support was when they had no real competition and they were the only game in town.


I feel the industry abandoned Nintendo not that Nintendo abandoned their gamers. I do however think the side effect is most of us have moved on and grown tired. As to why we continue to discuss them, because we continue to HOPE things will get better and like what also gets forgotten too often they have a HAND HELD division that is not the same mess as their console division and that means, surprise surprise, many people do still buy their games just not their home consoles.

[alegoicoe]

If the Wii was able to at least output a 720p resolution we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think Nintendo gamers couldn't understand why their favorite game franchises were not in HD. That single fact alone caused a mass exodus of Nintendo fans to the other platforms.

Can 240 lines of resolution really cause that big of a difference in perception? YES IT CAN? I completely agree. Even  now I want 10 wii games in HD, as if it's some sort of unfinished experience. In hindsight, I can see why some gamers feel incomplete without HD. (Metroid Prime 3 in HD back in 09 and the gaming world is a different place)

Even now that Nintendo is coming out with HD entries that BTW looks very good and still yet to be released titles such as mario kart, zelda, etc, the novelty of such graphics have been taken away by 6 years of other games showing off HD graphics, its never going to be like when we saw Ocarina of Time or Wind waker in graphical perspectives, which like Ian Sane pointed out, Nintendo before was all about showing what new tech can do.

[pokepal148]

tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS4 and PS3, (for multiplats)

"Hey look, the wood texture in the ps4 version is better and the background is more well defined but otherwise they look almost exactly the same, I am so amazed by the power of next gen"

[Shaymin]

I believe the core and Nintendo wished each other well in their future endeavors sometime around the time Ravi Drums crashed E3.

[broodwars]

tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS4 and PS3, (for multiplats)

"Hey look, the wood texture in the ps4 version is better and the background is more well defined but otherwise they look almost exactly the same, I am so amazed by the power of next gen"

To which I say...this:

Xbox 360 - Launch (Dead Rising)



Xbox 360 - End of Life (Halo 4)



PS3 Launch (Resistance: Fall of Man)



PS3 End of Life (The Last of Us)




As you can see, that's a pretty huge jump from the beginning of a console's life cycle to its end. While the games right now on the Xbone & PS4 may not look that different from the games of last gen, that's pretty common. The important thing is what those consoles ended up being able to produce by the end of their life cycles because of the tech put into them in 8-9 years prior (and software compression & coding advances). 

When the PS3 and 360 came out, I seem to remember Nintendo boasting that no one would be able to tell the difference between HD and SD games when justifying the Wii's pitiful SD-only approach. That's a claim that only become more pathetic with each passing year as the 360 and PS3 tech evolved & the Wii remained rooted in 2004-2005. Try saying you can't tell the difference between SD & HD games now with a straight face. I suspect we'll be able to see the same about the Xbone & PS4 games 6-7 years from now, comparatively speaking.

[ymeegod]

"Fragile Dreams
Pandora Tower
Xenoblade Chronicles
The Last Story"

Didn't we have to kick and scream just to get those?  Nintendo was publishing one game per month yet the NA market only received 1/2 of them even though the NA had the majority of the sales--Zangeki comes screaming to mind.

And then there's 3rd titles that Nintendo loved talking about but ending up NEVER coming stateside like Dragon Quest X or Tales of Graces (I had to play the PS3 instead).  Wouldn't be much or an issue except Nintendo has Region LOCK on their consoles.

And Finally you have the systems overall features--mostly my complaint about online oversight.  No party chat?  Friend codes BS.  Games like SSB Brawl never getting patched to fix imbalances in classes.   It was just a kick in the nuts when 3rd party games on the WII had voice chat but 1st party games didn't.

I love Nintendo games but they really need to listen more to what both gamers and developers want and need.

 

[Adrock]

I love Nintendo games but they really need to listen more to what both gamers and developers want and need.

We can pretty much end this discussion here. I think even the most ardent Nintendo fan can admit this. Nintendo still makes games that resonate with people (even if you aren't in that group) and we can all make our own pros and cons list, but like all things, there's always room for improvement.

[smallsharkbigbite]

We can pretty much end this discussion here.

But how will I get to know everyone's favorite cupcake flavor?

[Adrock]

Well, unfortunately, no one was really participating in that and this thread was teetering on clusterfuckery. My favorite flavor is chocolate cheesecake. Bonus points awarded if the baker has the foresight to include chocolate chips. I am also quite fond of pumpkin cheesecake.

This post was brought to you by the letter C for Cheesecake.

[Ceric]

Honestly, I wouldn't use still screens of Halo 4 for graphic comparison because it looks almost exactly like Metroid Prime on Gamecube to me.  I'm sure that's not true in motion.

I wish I could find the article but there was a great one I read a very long time showing the progression of graphics on the Neo-Geo from start to end and its amazing how different those are.

[Nile Boogie Returns]

There's a $5 cupcake place in downtown Philly that sells these delectable cookies n cream cupcakes that are one of the greatest reasons for living in this city. Sweet Lord they are awesome!




Back in tow...THE LAST STORY in HD would have changed the playing field, well ok not really but it would have been GLORIOUS!

[Ian Sane]

tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS4 and PS3, (for multiplats)

In 2006 you would have said:

tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS3 and PS2, (for multiplats)

I heard this exact argument about a thousand times during the first few years of the Wii's life.  I also recall a lot of claims that the third party support was coming because everyone was just caught off guard by the Wii's success and since it was the best selling console the third party support was going to come and that the hardware was not a real hurdle for porting.

ymeegod makes a great point about the Rainfall games.  How important are core gamers to Nintendo when we needed a whole online movement to get NOA to localize good games?  NOA was so disinterested in anything that wasn't a sure thing massive mainstream hit that they felt that software droughts were better than releasing a niche title.  Xenoblade is one of the best Wii games but it has about zero casual appeal and that's probably exactly why NOA wasn't interested.

[alegoicoe]

tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS4 and PS3, (for multiplats)

In 2006 you would have said:

tbh at least from screenshot graphic comparisons I've seen there isn't exactly a huge gap between the PS3 and PS2, (for multiplats)

I heard this exact argument about a thousand times during the first few years of the Wii's life.  I also recall a lot of claims that the third party support was coming because everyone was just caught off guard by the Wii's success and since it was the best selling console the third party support was going to come and that the hardware was not a real hurdle for porting.

ymeegod makes a great point about the Rainfall games.  How important are core gamers to Nintendo when we needed a whole online movement to get NOA to localize good games?  NOA was so disinterested in anything that wasn't a sure thing massive mainstream hit that they felt that software droughts were better than releasing a niche title.  Xenoblade is one of the best Wii games but it has about zero casual appeal and that's probably exactly why NOA wasn't interested.

In the end i view the WiiU and Wii the same way i viewed gamecube, i have the cinsole for the sole purpose of playing Nintendo produced or exclusives. In regards to the pseudo-nextgen i built my self a $540.00 gaming rig which is on par with the new systems, cause if people criticized the launch of WiiU, this new systems game wise are abysmal.

[Mythtendo]

If the Wii was able to at least output a 720p resolution we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think Nintendo gamers couldn't understand why their favorite game franchises were not in HD. That single fact alone caused a mass exodus of Nintendo fans to the other platforms.

Can 240 lines of resolution really cause that big of a difference in perception? YES IT CAN? I completely agree. Even  now I want 10 wii games in HD, as if it's some sort of unfinished experience. In hindsight, I can see why some gamers feel incomplete without HD. (Metroid Prime 3 in HD back in 09 and the gaming world is a different place)

It's not that big of a difference, and back when the Wii came out very few people had HDTVs. So I can understand why Nintendo didn't do it. I would like Wii games in HD, but being SD didn't make the games less good.

[broodwars]

Honestly, I wouldn't use still screens of Halo 4 for graphic comparison because it looks almost exactly like Metroid Prime on Gamecube to me.  I'm sure that's not true in motion.

I wish I could find the article but there was a great one I read a very long time showing the progression of graphics on the Neo-Geo from start to end and its amazing how different those are.

Eh, I was in a rush and was trying to pick out graphical showpieces from the various platforms. I wanted to use Alan Wake instead, but it was annoyingly difficult to find good 360 screens of the game instead of the PC version.

[Luigi Dude]

I also recall a lot of claims that the third party support was coming because everyone was just caught off guard by the Wii's success and since it was the best selling console the third party support was going to come and that the hardware was not a real hurdle for porting.

Well most of these claims where because third parties were losing millions of dollars because of the huge new budgets the 360/PS3 had created and so it was thought these studio's would eventually get smart and realize there was a cheaper alternative with a very active userbase at the time.  Instead they decided to stick to the HD consoles and many either shut down or were forced to downsize because of cost.  Even these days, we still see studio's being shut down and or downsized every month because of the bomb of just one game.

Even with the Wii U having terrible sales, Nintendo still hasn't lost anything close to the amount of money Sony lost on the PS3 at this point in its life, despite the PS3 having sold better at that same point.  Even with the PS4 selling great, Sony is still shutting down or downsizing some of their gaming studio's because of the enormous cost that the PS4 is just making greater.  How many studio's has Nintendo been closing because of the Wii U?  Oh yeah, they still haven't shut down or downsized any of their gaming studio's despite the Wii U's poor sales.

Yes, for the people who want better graphics you're getting it, but keep in mind those better graphics on Microsoft and Sony's systems have a greater cost that has resulted in many studio's dying a lot quicker.  So it's not like the alternative to what Nintendo is doing is a better one when the rest of the industry hasn't exactly been thriving either.

[Mop it up]

I actually don't see much difference between 480p and 720p, and I'm not sure I can spot the difference between 720p and 1080p. The human eye can only discern so much, and so as resolutions rise, the noticeable difference gets smaller and smaller. The real difference maker between the Wii and PS360 is the specs, and it isn't like playing PS360 games in 480p made them look like Wii games, nor does up-resing Wii games make them look like PS360 games.

Also strawberry cheesecake is the best.

[shingi_70]

480p is so blurrly. I watched a movie in SD the other day and it was terrible.

[BranDonk Kong]

Bear in mind that it's not really 240 "lines of resolution" - 720p is 2.24x the image quality (potentially) of 480p.

[Nile Boogie Returns]

480p vs 720p is night and day for me and I'm not a video snob with monster gold cables and $5000. 720p would have went a long way in my neck of the trees.

[BranDonk Kong]

I actually don't see much difference between 480p and 720p, and I'm not sure I can spot the difference between 720p and 1080p. The human eye can only discern so much, and so as resolutions rise, the noticeable difference gets smaller and smaller. The real difference maker between the Wii and PS360 is the specs, and it isn't like playing PS360 games in 480p made them look like Wii games, nor does up-resing Wii games make them look like PS360 games.

Also strawberry cheesecake is the best.

People always say this "the human eye can only see this or that" nonsense all the time, which is total bullshit (no offense, and this isn't necessarily directed towards you, but you used those magic words)and is just something that they read on the internet. If you can't see the difference, you have terrible eyes. Go look at a 55" 1080p TV, and then go look at a 55" 4KTV. Night and day - while 1080p does look great, 4K looks *amazing*. Even on a cell phone screen (lets say 5") the difference between 480p, 720p, and 1080p are all very obvious.

Now, resolution isn't everything, but go on YouTube and watch videos of people playing GameCube or Wii games on Dolphin at 1080p, the difference is quite clear. The games don't have any added effects, there isn't a single extra polygon being pushed, they are still the same games, just running at a higher resolution (yes, sometimes things like FSAA are added, but that's a different story).

[pokepal148]

Is there anyone who would want to stand by that movie after those ratings? 

[Phil]

I'm not too hip with resolution. I probably notice the differences subconsciously, but I don't think I've ever seen one and then the other soon after to make a comparison.

[Oblivion]

I actually don't see much difference between 480p and 720p, and I'm not sure I can spot the difference between 720p and 1080p. The human eye can only discern so much, and so as resolutions rise, the noticeable difference gets smaller and smaller. The real difference maker between the Wii and PS360 is the specs, and it isn't like playing PS360 games in 480p made them look like Wii games, nor does up-resing Wii games make them look like PS360 games.

Also strawberry cheesecake is the best.

People always say this "the human eye can only see this or that" nonsense all the time, which is total bullshit (no offense, and this isn't necessarily directed towards you, but you used those magic words)and is just something that they read on the internet. If you can't see the difference, you have terrible eyes. Go look at a 55" 1080p TV, and then go look at a 55" 4KTV. Night and day - while 1080p does look great, 4K looks *amazing*. Even on a cell phone screen (lets say 5") the difference between 480p, 720p, and 1080p are all very obvious.

Now, resolution isn't everything, but go on YouTube and watch videos of people playing GameCube or Wii games on Dolphin at 1080p, the difference is quite clear. The games don't have any added effects, there isn't a single extra polygon being pushed, they are still the same games, just running at a higher resolution (yes, sometimes things like FSAA are added, but that's a different story).

Finally someone with sense. Unless you're like 20 feet away from the TV you'll notice a difference between 480p vs. 720p, 720p vs. 1080p, and 1080p vs. 4k.