Topic: GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card

[Lurch]

Hmm, one of my first posts. Whee!

I like looking at the console wars from a global perspective. Anyone who says "Pepsi is better than Coke" (from a business standpoint) just proved themselves as an ignorant fool who only focuses on North America.

If you go to any country outside of North America, especially smaller ones like Belize, you can see that most people don't even know what Pepsi is. On the worldwide scale, the Coca Cola corp is making 10X the money Pepsi is.

Consoles are much the same in this regard... Just not to the same world-dominating extent. GLOBALLY, nintendo is doing quite well. GLOBALLY, sales of the GC are pretty close to the PS2 (well, closer than the North American results).

I don't have figures so I'll let you draw your own conclusions; I had to bring it up though.

As for this nice little argument about whether online play would work or not -

"Online play is not profitable." - Nintendo of Canada.

Well, there's the proof right there. Sure, X-Box has 500,000 subscribers - but how many of them have paid for a year's worth of services? I know for a fact that Microsoft has not released any actual Sales figures on the Live system, and the "500,000" quote is from before the payment scheme had even been set up.

It is also a fact that Sony and Microsoft are losing money hand-over-fist on the online systems. Yes, it may boost sales - but if that made it profitable, they wouldn't be losing money, would they? It HELPS, but it isn't enough. Yes, it would be super-nice if Nintendo had a limitless supply of money and they could throw in an online feature, and yes I love playing online, but I'm not about to ask nintendo to set up an on-line system at their expense so I could half-play it. (what is online play without a keyboard?)

But.. if nintendo did make an online system for this console, and as a result made a loss over the next four years, it would make me even MORE sad to see Nintendo give up the race. As long as nintendo is making a profit, they'll make games. As long as nintendo makes a profit, they'll make new consoles. As long as nintendo makes a profit, they are proving that their business model works, and we'll see more of it in the future. If PS2 and XBOX were making money, then your online-defending claims do have a point.

As for the blizzard's free online system - well hell yeah! I can buy a broadband adapter and go out right now. But even the DEVELOPERS of GC games know it isn't profitable, because the DEVELOPERS aren't setting up any free online services. It would be really easy to include it in 3rd party titles, wouldn't it? just port over some net code. But they know it's a waste of time. they don't even bother.

So here we are, the developers don't make online games, the producer doesn't make online games, and at the end of the day, the USER doesn't even PLAY online games!

Us internet users are always skewed a bit in vision to see the drawbacks of an online system. Here's a quick fact. only 30% of internet users in north america have broadband. How many PC internet games say "requires broadband?"

I'm on the verge of pulling a mouse_clicker and saying "drop it."  

[Wesisapie]

i love a good scandal.

[Jonnyboy117]

Quote
Originally posted by: Lurch
Consoles are much the same in this regard... Just not to the same world-dominating extent. GLOBALLY, nintendo is doing quite well. GLOBALLY, sales of the GC are pretty close to the PS2 (well, closer than the North American results).

Sorry, but this statement is completely wrong.  Globally, around 15 million GameCubes have been sold (I'm doing a rough estimate trying to account for the post-price-cut surge), while over 60 million PS2s have been sold.  Nintendo is doing better than Microsoft on the global scale, because of the Japanese market, but Sony is way out ahead of both of them in every market (in terms of installed base, I mean).

[mouse_clicker]

Dus, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about if anyone who doesn't think Nintendo's on death's is now a fanboy. PROVE online console gaming is profitable. If not, do you really want to be supporting a console made by a company that will spend millions upon millions of dollars to please less than 5% of its owners? Get a clue, dus- online gaming is not popular enough to support with yet. Why do you insist on dragging this on? I'm not going to continue with this discussion, at any rate- it's obvious many of you are not only delusional but arrogant and pretentious as well. Lurch seems to have a very good grasp on exactly why online gaming isn't the bandwagon everyone needs to jump on.  

[Deguello]

All this talk of online stuff actually made me bust out my Dreamcast to go and live up some quality online gaming.

Much to my dismay, I found that most of Sega's servers for both their multiplayer and just regular online stuff (like SA downloads and such) have been totally shutdown.  I'll even regale you a tale of an online game called Outtrigger for the DC.  When I got it, early 2k2, I decided to go online and see if I could join a game.  Sadly, I believe I was the ONLY person in the U.S. that had their copy of Outtrigger online.  And for a game designed as an online multiplayer game, that pretty much meant the game is dead.  I hear tell of some Gamespy servers, but I'll be arsed to use theirs.  Say what you want about Pacman Vs., or Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.  I will be able to play them 20 years from now.  You may not be able to say the same thing about Mechassault, or Project Gotham Raching 2, or My Street, or any other game designed solely to be played online.  I think that is also why the DC is somehow left out when talking about the "online revolution" (despite pioneering most of it).  It holds the dirty rotten truth no one wants to consider.

I find the tendancy for people online to look at the gaming world through broadband-colored glasses.  As a 56k man myself, I find most online ventures to be totally and utterly fruitless.  You may ask me to compare connectivity to online stuff, and I say that it is no contest.  Connectivity whips the bejeesus out of the useless Online features of Live! and Ps2 Online, because I can actually use it.  If I were to give a grade to Connectivity vs. Online it would only be A, because not matter how pitiful or crappy connectivity is, the online features of Live and Ps2 Online would be F's, since I cannot use them, and I grade on a curve.

That said, I cannot fathom how people think connectivity in bad from a business standpoint.  The market is extremely lopsided.  Anybody can do connectivity.  Only Broadband users can use Live and for the most part PS2 Online can use it.  And last I heard, only so many people had Broadband.  Not even half.  Barely a quarter.

Now, if you may say that Connectivity is not your cup of tea, well that's ok.  But it may also be true that online is not my cup of tea, or even worse, I may not get to decide, by being forbidden from using it in the first place.

Oh, btw, a "sucks to be you" comment would be in very poor taste.  

[dus]

TO MOUSE_CLICKER,

Dear MC,

Since I have joined the forums, I have not enjoyed myself since your juvenile and immature concepts and ideas about violence on GCN. And you know what? YOU are presumptuous, annoying, and, moreover, a little insane. And this is not what I would expect from a Nintendo fan. You expect Nintendo to uphold morals and maturity, yet you use curse words and insults in your very own posts? Hmmm.... Delusional? I think not, MC. Get a life and grow up.

Sincerely,

Dus  

[NWR_Lindy]

mouse_clicker: Like I said, profits would be nice but that's not necessarily what Sony and Microsoft are looking for.  They want to get that foothold in console online gaming, that's part of their LONG-TERM strategy.  Nintendo's strategy is depressingly SHORT-TERM in that they're content to maintain the status quo - keep pushing the GameBoy Advance SP, keep churning out Mario and Zelda games, stay far away from online gaming.  This strategy is making them money for the moment but in the long run it's bound to hurt them.  

Why do you think there's so much chatter about Nintendo becoming a software-only company?  It's because Microsoft and Sony cater to the needs of both the 18-to-34 casual gamer (sports games, Grand Theft Auto, HALO) and the early-adopter hardcore (network play and games like SOCOM and Everquest).  Nintendo doesn't currently cater to either - they cater to Nintendophiles and little kids.  Not saying that that's bad, but they don't have to produce a game console to do that.  They could easily do that by just producing software.  But I digress.

Nintendo really needs to get into the online game, if only to be able to say "Sony and Microsoft do that?  Oh yeah, we do that too...look at our online lineup"  They need more than one game that seriously supports online play.  Instead of pushing this half-assed LAN garbage that Mario Kart: Double Dash has, put some serious online capability in there and make it the Gamecube online killer app.  While you're at it, put Pokemon online too.  You may not make money at it for a couple of years, but at least you GENERATE INTEREST in the online concept.  The hardcore will latch on to it, and eventually it'll trickle down to the masses (at least those that have broadband connections).  It's pretty obvious the console industry is going in the online direction and Nintendo really needs to get with the program with their next console.  Have built-in ethernet, have a built-in hard-drive - make their system a cooler gadget.

I think you need to let go of the fact that profit is the immediate driver in EVERY business decision.  If this was the case Microsoft never would have released the XBox in the first place...but now that it's out there and people like it, Microsoft is guaranteed to have a bigger piece of the pie next time around.  Nintendo should be doing the same with online gaming.

silks

[mouse_clicker]

Yay! I need to get a life. ^_^ Because I love Nintendo, I'm being told to get a life! Because I refuse to bash Nintendo, I'm being called juvenile by someone who can't even spell the word! If this is what's brought users to PGC, Billy needs to come back. Why is it that whenever anyone can't prove to me they're right, they resort to bashing instead? I'm talking about morality here, dus- you'd realize where I was coming from if you knew anything about me. What have you done to make me think you're right? C'est la vie.

Silks: All installed online user bases reset at the start of the next generation, so it doesn't matter how many people get XBox Live or PS2 Online or whatever THIS generation. Nintendo will support online when it's practicle and profitable, which it obviously, despite everyone's darndest efforts to say otherwise, isn't right now.    

[knarf135]

I am so glade I am not crazy about all of this.  Just a big mess of opinions.  All I care about it getting AAA games and Nintendo is the main one that can fulfill that need.  Now I shall leave you all to your wanking.  

[mouse_clicker]

Exactly, knarf- nobody is ever happy with what they have. You can all burn holes in your stomachs worrying, I'm gonna play me some Double Dash.

[Deguello]

What boggles my mind is why Mario Kart gets slammed for not having online stuff when the same can be said for other games.  But, they can remedy my bad opinion of them by scaling back any review they've ever written 2 points for lack of online features for games that didn't have them.  Just because they were on the SNES or the Genesis doesn't mean they get a free pass.  Xband existed, therefore they must haved used it, because it existed.  And who is to arbitrarily proclaim what games NEED online features, while others get off scot-free?  I find it bad policy to review games based upon what it DOESN'T have, which is something a lot of major sites are guilty of.

[dus]

To MC,

Wow Mc. That was really clever. For someone like me (I scored a 100% on the Vocab section of the SATs) misspelling juvinile was juvenile. But MC, I may not know you- but you surely don't and will never in your sad life know me. I am not an arrogant jerk as you so retardedly remarked- precotious, yes- but arrogant and rude? No. You've backed yourself into a corner, and can't get out. So you squirm and try to fight back the embarassment. It reminds me of the way I felt in my thread about GCN violence. Now that was bashing- bashing other systems, other forum users, and violent games. Yay! I'm glad you've recognized your need for a life.

[Jonnyboy117]

If you guys are trying to get me to lock a Talkback thread, you will fail.  Instead I will simply ban people who continue to use this as a medium of personal insult and useless bickering.

[DrZoidberg]

Quote
Originally posted by: dus
RESPONSE TO MOUSE C'S EARLIER REMARKS ABOUT ONLINE GAMING-

Wake up, mc! It is profitable for Microsoft to have Xbox Live- and if it isn't, than doesn't that mean that they will go that extra mile (and extra dollar) to please their subscribers? Sorry, kid. This  is when  the true fans of Nintendo (the ones worrying about them Ie. Me, Jonny, Nc) and the extreme fanboys (Hostile Creation, Mario) are divided.If this makes you lose your faith in PGC, too bad- they're right.

ahahahha RED BADGE OF INTERNET SELF WORTH, i love how you can elevate your self above others dus

[dus]

Haha, thanks Squid thing! Just kidding- I don't mean to elevate myself, but is saying i'm a true fan doing just that? I think not! Just kidding......

[savanna03]

all i want to say is NICE EDITORIAL... i agree completely...

you can tell that NINTENDO is in DEFENCE MODE right now... they are afraid to take risk because they cant afford loosing money... they think connectivety is IT because its cheap and i do see some potential but it just add complexecity to the gameplay.  i thought, they said simplicity will make the game strive... in my words, CONNECTIVETY IS JUST A GIMMICK to help them get more money.  to make things worst... PSP is knocking on the door and when you look at the kind of ppl who buys a handheld... ha, the user base will only split, not gain.  2 front war isn't good if u dont have the muscle and resources to keep it going thats why SONY has nothing to loose.  also i like to congrat MICROSOFT for bringing the PC gamers to the world of console because now it is possible to have 3 console in the market.  they have dont their part, so now XBOX got a world wide recognition.  it means, another odds against NINTENDO next generation.  both SONY and MICROSOFT made some risk to help them in the future unlike NINTENDO who seems to just stay put.  that is why CALCULATED RISK is good and online risk that SONY and MICROSOFT made will only GAIN.  TRUST ME...

to tell you the truth, its only NINTENDO that can prevent this... they have the HARDCORE GAMERS on their side(which by the way pisses some off 'cuz of the cell shaded ZELDA alone) and now they have to learn to embrace the CASUAL GAMERS.    they have to lure them with an ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM and not a GAMING MACHINE.  embrace 3rd party who makes game that they wont.  they got to be open minded on things and not completely diss them becuase they cant understand it.  EVOLVING will get them out cuz being STUBBERNESS will kill them for sure especially that GAMEBOY MIGHT not save them next time around.  BECAUSE WHEN ALL SYSTEM ARE ALL EQUAL IN POWER, GAMES WILL BE THE ONLY ONE WILL BE TALKING AND NINTENDO HAS THE BIGGEST ADVANTAGE.

THANK YOU    

[NWR_Lindy]

mouse_clicker: True, technically the installed user base for any console resets at the beginning of the next generation, but you're completely ignoring the fact that Sony and Microsoft are attempting to establish brand loyalty with online gaming this generation.  All of those gamers that like XBox Live right now will surely be checking for XBox 2 when it's released because they know they'll get the same quality of online experience.  In other words, when XBox 2 comes around most of the early adopters will already be on-board so they'll be an easy sell.  Sony knows this as well.  If somebody enjoys their online experience with the PS2 you can bet they'll be an easy sell for online gaming with PS3.  This is where I think Nintendo is short-sighted...if their next console has online capabilities they'll be starting from scratch as far as building a user base goes.  I don't think you can build an online userbase overnight; you have to cultivate it over time.


Deguello: I really wish Nintendo wouldn't have put that LAN capability in Double Dash because they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.  The people that want full online will bash it (myself included), and the people that don't care will bash it because it's a weak substitute for true online play.  They would have been smarter to leave well enough alone.

silks

[Jonnyboy117]

LAN modes are nothing new in console games, but I think they are nice additions that a select few people will really enjoy.  Unfortunately, the LAN mode in Mario Kart is really horribly implemented, or else it would at least see some tournament action.  Unless Nintendo were to release some kind of quick-connect hub, affordable LCD screens and batteries, etc., LAN modes are going to remain completely obscure and not a significant factor in the connectivity equation.  The problem is that Nintendo tried to show these modes off as an attempt to widen connectivity to new realms.  No, they didn't say it was a replacement for online modes, but they did tell us that this new feature will let you play Mario Kart in a new way!  And it doesn't.  I'm just glad they didn't advertise it very hard.

[mouse_clicker]

Suit yourself, dus.

Silks: True, brand loyalty can be created, but brand loyalty among who? XBox Live only has 500,000 subscribers, that's not many loyal followers to carry MS through the next generation. It's a start, yes, but so little of a start it's not even worth mentioning. Sony's "success" in that field is even worse. I think it's quite safe for Nintendo leave online gaming alone this generation, and probably the next as well (although I'd at least like to see them have a setup similar to Sony's, as Johnny stated).

Johnny: It's your opinion that LAN play doesn't offer anything new in Double Dash- I know quite a few people that love it. In fact, I'm going to a Double Dash LAN party on Saturday. You may not personally like it, but that's your opinion, which is but one drop in a vast ocean.

[Hostile Creation]

Quote
extreme fanboys (Hostile Creation, Mario)

Damn glad I am, too.  I just wasted my entire Christmas Day playing a bunch of PS2 games, and I was bored out of my mind.  I had more fun tossing a football with a little kid, which is not something I'm particularly fond of.  I love my Gamecube, love Nintendo, and I know that Nintendo will continue to make products that I enjoy.  I don't even think you understand. . .

I'm proud that you got a 100% on the verbal part of your SAT; that's quite an accomplishment.  I'll leave it at that, since anything else I might want to say would result in an instant ban.

[IWannaBeSponsored]

     I'm going to agree with Hostile Creation. I really couldn't care less about online gaming. I don't care about where is the best place for nintendo to focus is. I don't want for nintendo to go to the typical and Cliche. All I see is that playstation is poo, x-box is good, but gamecube is best when it comes to fun when gaming. (This is a personal and completely selfish post so don't get defensive) X-box and playstation have few good games that are not available to me on a gamecube. Gamecube has lots and lots of great games that they are not releasing on other consoles. I can only see an upside when most of your friends have the great games like GTA and Halo but you have games like Viewtiful Joe, Metroid Prime, Animal Crossing, Starfox, Super Smash Bros., and the Amazing Zelda (i dont see how you people can diss Zelda). Anyway, in my own little mind, not looking at the economy, Nintendo deserves an A because it is the best.

[Ocarina Blue]

Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117No, the N.A. market is larger in both sales and profit. Japan was eclipsed back in the 90s.

That one took me by suprise. Wow, that was really bad on my part. Sorry about that, Selochin.

Quote
Originally posted by: S-U-P-E-R
- maybe GameCube deserves a C grade from a business perspective, but from a "I am a gamer, should I buy it?" perspective, I'd give it an A or B.

Yup.
I simply don't care about the business, as long as it is healthy enough to support Nintendo making games. I do disagree quite a bit with the sections referring to games, however.

The Gamecube has lots of good games, many of which would appeal to casual gamers if they tried them and were marketed appropriately. Zelda and Mario draw attention from their names alone, but games like SSB: M, Eternal Darkness, F-Zero, and even Mario Kart, to some extent, don't. Metroid Prime is a perfect example of a good game, which belongs to a franchise only half-known by casual gamers that drew alot of attention. The failure of other good games to gather much attention is because of shortfalls in marketing or image or something, it has little to do with the quality of the games themselves.

This generation of classic franchises has seemed fresh to me, despite Nintendo having already made the major shift to 3D (which Grey Ninja also pointed out). I'd write a few things out here, but once again, Grey Ninja has outlined my general opinion on the matter pretty well. Nintendo isn't in an easy position regarding it's traditional franchises. There has been a successful attempt to loan out a few known franchises to new developers (F-Zero, Metroid, Starfox) to allow EAD and the other core development houses to try a few new things. As easy as it is for skeptical people looking for faults in Nintendo to laminate the lack of new franchises, imagine the reaction if Nintendo didn't release a new Mario and Zelda and F-Zero and Mario Kart for the Gamecube. I'll agree that perhaps new Mario Golf and Tennis games wouldn't be loved any more than original games, but over those, I think Nintendo has been pretty wise in making decisions regarding franchises.

As for 3rd parties, the GC has it's 3rd party exclusives, the PS2 has it's 3rd party exclusives, as does the X-Box. The Gamecube gets most of the games available for both the other consoles that are worth it (with the exception of Vice City), and it gets it's fair share of exclusives. If Viewtiful Joe or F-Zero were for the X-Box, they'd be well known and ranted about. Once again the games exist, but aren't well known enough to gain the recognition they deserve. It might not be perfect, but the support does exist, even if it's not as strong as it is on the PS2. I'm not saying I think it's perfect, but I do think your being a little too harsh on it.

Most of all though, Nintendo is still making good games, and it isn't mindlessly conforming to the current fashions. Look at the pathetic attempt Nokia has made to penitrate the handheld industry with a 'mature' gaming devise. It's  pathetic.

[Mario]

Quote
extreme fanboys (Hostile Creation, Mario)

Hey what? If you think im a Nintendo only gamer, then you're wrong, i enjoy my PS2 and plan to get an Xbox. Infernal Monkey said it best in a post in some other thread that i remember exactly, "Nintendo isn't the be all and end all of gaming ".

I would give GameCube an overall A. All the negative points Jonny makes in the article, i dont have a problem with any of them.

Quote
Jonnyboy said:
It doesn’t compete in terms of third-party support.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest that GameCube doesn't get GTA, Max Payne or some other random realistic game that i can most likely play on my PC, it's not like i would buy the GameCube version of those games if there was one anyway.

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GBA connectivity hasn’t materialized, much less revolutionized.

I've enjoyed using connectivity in Wind Waker and look forward to using it in Pacman, Four Swords and Final Fantasy. How is that a negative, because it could be better?

Quote
GameCube is most definitely not the coolest system to own. It’s not remotely popular with casual gamers.

So i go up to a random guy on the street with his Madden shirt, Need for Speed hat and GTA shoes on, ask "are you a casual gamer?", he says yes, then i ask "is GameCube popular with you?", i expect him to say "NOT REMOTELY!". Seriously though, if you know someone who is negative towards a certain product for whatever reason, does that bring the quality of that product down? Hell no. I dont really deal with these "casual gamers", since most of my gamer friends and family like Nintendo (not thanks to me, thanks to Nintendo), but whatever.

And this

Quote
Jonnyboy was angry that:
The general theme for Nintendo so far this generation has been, "We’re learning, but not very fast." It seems like whenever Nintendo fixes one problem left from the N64 era, a new one pops up. Four years ago, I was sick of hearing that things would be
better in the next generation. I’m still sick of hearing it, and I’m finding it harder and harder to believe.

Quote
One sentence later:
GameCube is a big improvement over the N64.

Sorry i couldn't help myself.

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Some of GameCube’s problems could be remedied in the current generation, like better marketing and some improvement in
third-party support.

Nintendo have already started marketing better (well at least in the US), and what more third party support can they get? Are you unhappy that a mediocre version of Max Payne or Joe Blow's Pro Petrol Station isn't available on GameCube?

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Connectivity could still be salvaged from its current laughable state.

I dont see people walking passed the games section, pointing to a tiny GC/GBA link cable box and laughing their asses off. GameCube has the ability to link to the Gameboy, other consoles do not. Its a positive not a negative.

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The question is whether Nintendo can become mobile enough to act on these issues and make real changes. Otherwise, Nintendo fans will be left hoping that the next system will be the revolutionary system that GameCube was supposed to be.

This Nintendo fan doesn't want to know about the next system right now, and is eagerly anticipating many upcoming games for the Nintendo GameCube.

[Cowboy Bebop]

Deguello, the reason Mario Kart gets bashed for not including online play is because they went to all the trouble of developing, testing, balancing, and implementing a LAN feature that could very easily have been used for online play.  It would be a great selling point.  It would have added a lot of fun to the game and it would have cost them next to nothing to do.  Look at the Warp Pipe Project.  It doesn't cost a ton of money to have a game online.  It's sad that fans have to do it on their own.

[mouse_clicker]

Nintendo doesn't have to pour money into continually supporting LAN play, though. In fact, implementing LAN play and instead of going straight for online support was the better idea, because services like Warp Pipe come out that let you play Mario Kart online anyway, with no monetary support from Nintendo. It was really ingenious of them.