Topic: Miyamoto Changing His Gaming Style, Developers Have Yet to Add Uniqueness to Wii U Games

[Stogi]

Having "the most features" doesn't mean jack ****

[Fjurbanski]

Having "the most features" doesn't mean jack **** if they aren't done as well and if people don't actually want to use them.

How are they not done as well? As well as what? The other controllers that don't even have those options?


And some people do want to use them. You don't. Some others don't. But some do. So it certainly does mean something to have those features.

Not to mention, when Nintendo had to supplement the GamePad with the Pro Controller because the GamePad just doesn't cut it for certain people & certain experiences, you can't call it "definitive".

1.) I highly doubt the controller pro was made so that people who didn't want to use the gamepad could play single player Wii U games. Sure they may have marketed it that way, and the media certainly saw it that way, but I'm more than certain it was made for local multiplayer, because only one Gamepad works at a time. I could be wrong, but I would bet money on that if I could. Unfortunately they decided to call it the "Pro" controller, rather than the "multiplayer" controller, or something like that. A bad move on their part, because it gives people the perception that the pro controller is the "proper" controller.


2.) What experiences does it not cut it for? I can think of one thing that might be an issue and that's racing sims like GT. Please mention more, I'd like to know.

But by all means, continue to worship the controller for the checkboxes it ticks off the list rather than its ability to convince people to actually play games with it.  This argument is too stupid for me to waste any more time on it.

And there lies the problem I've been getting at. Gamer perception and Nintendo's marketing. Gamers are a whiny, volatile group. We know this. They take one look at the Gamepad and say, "Nope! It's different! I don't want it." And then Nintendo doesn't market it correctly, and the media keeps referring to it as the Wii U Tablet instead of the Gamepad, and gamers are still pissed over what happened with the Wii and apply the word "gimmick" to everything they do, and Nintendo stupidly called the other controller the "pro". People shouldn't need convincing to play games with the Gamepad, because like we've been over, it's just as capable as every other controller. But for some reason there's this preconceived notion that it can't be used to play "normal" games just because it's not exactly the same as what we're used to. And obviously that's idiotic. People should only need convincing to buy the system itself, and obviously all that takes is good games. After that no convincing should be needed to use the Gamepad rather than going out and buying a "pro", because it works and works well. Unfortunately for Nintendo, gamers can't see past the "gimmick" and notice that there is a perfectly capable normal controller right in front of them.


And with that, I've made my points. I'm also done with this discussion. Goodnight.

[Stogi]

And with that, I've made my points. I'm also done with this discussion. Goodnight. *DROPS MIC*

[ShyGuy]

I think we know who won this round



The Champ is here! Dun-Dun-DuhDuh The Champ is here!

[ShyGuy]

[Caterkiller]

Broodwars how did you get hired by Disney? They need to fill their quota of Snow White Grumpy Dwarves?

If nothing else switching items and inserting text onto the tv is a million times easier and more convenient with the gamepad. I was helping a friend find mind craft on the 360, inserting text was such a chore, that is a way of the past, same goes for looking up tv shows with a standard remote.

Maybe you can't see beyond your own narrow way of play but I enjoy going to practice mode in Tekken, constantly sharpening up my skills while I or my wife watch shows at the same time. When I'm looking to just grind in RPGs I do the same thing on my 3DS, when I'm trying to go after those insanely hard gold medals in Mario U I have a much more relaxing time with the game in my hands and the tv playing something else.

Now when it comes to really wanting to get absorbed in a story or something then yeah I prefer the tv. But the off tv play has already proven extremely useful for me, the convenience of typing words and off tv play makes this by far the best controller ever. 5 player split screen for local play, or 2 people not sharing the tv for any split screen game just speaks for it's self.

[azeke]

Off TV is very cool.

But my DS and 3DS already can do it, and without range limitations.

5 player local multiplayer is also very cool. Had a blast playing Mario with friends.

But those aren't really super innovative, like "it changes everything" innovative.

I'm thinking something like card game with two gamepads where one can't see another's deck.

Or this one:


So many ideas out there besides that "let's just add touch mode".

Also, Gamepad is quite heavy and i prefer wiimote or classic controller if game allows me to.

[Oblivion]

Your DS or 3DS cannot play Black Ops 2. Or Assassin's Creed 3. Or Trine 2. Or blah blah blah.

[KDR_11k]

Get Sandlot on the system and bring what they make to the West. BOOM, instant proof that the gamepad is useful.


Chou Soujuu Mecha MG is all about the touchscreen and Zangeki no Reginleiv is all about the IR pointer. Whatever they do on the Wii U (MG would work) would likely be just as strong on the unique controller support.

[Ian Sane]

That Penny Arcade comic reminds me of when GC-GBA connectivity was revealed and everyone was brainstorming ideas and there were some pretty fucking cool ones being suggested.  2D was kind of endangered at the time so a lot of them had the main character bouncing between 3D and 2D worlds.  Then Nintendo revealed their ideas and they really pushed Pac-Man and all their games that required the GBA for some reason relied on multiplayer.  When the fans suggest cooler ideas than what you come up with, your idea sucks.

I think there's also a warped chicken-and-egg scenario with this stuff.  The really impressive controller innovation that Nintendo came up with that initially seemed very weird was the analog stick.  I know they came up with stuff like the d-pad and L&R triggers but those didn't seem strange.  The N64 controller looked outright bizarre when it came out.  But then we all tried Super Mario 64 and we immediately got it.  It clearly demonstrated how essential the analog stick was.  The N64 controller was largely designed based around Super Mario 64's requirements.  The game idea spawned the controller innovation.  But since then Nintendo has had the opposite approach.  They think of some neat new controller innovation and then figure this will inspire new game ideas and then they struggle with it.  They struggled with connectivity, the touchscreen, motion controls.  For every okay implementation we got like ten games with those controls awkwardly forced in.  It's just not the right approach.  You don't make the Gamepad and think "okay, now what can we do with this" because you might come up with jack ****.  You come up with game ideas and then think "okay, now what new controller functionality do I have to add to accomodate this".

[ShyGuy]

Also, Gamepad is quite heavy and i prefer wiimote or classic controller if game allows me to.

What? Quite Heavy? Do you even lift?

[Razorkid]

Having "the most features" doesn't mean jack **** if they aren't done as well and if people don't actually want to use them.

How are they not done as well? As well as what? The other controllers that don't even have those options?


And some people do want to use them. You don't. Some others don't. But some do. So it certainly does mean something to have those features.

Not to mention, when Nintendo had to supplement the GamePad with the Pro Controller because the GamePad just doesn't cut it for certain people & certain experiences, you can't call it "definitive".

1.) I highly doubt the controller pro was made so that people who didn't want to use the gamepad could play single player Wii U games. Sure they may have marketed it that way, and the media certainly saw it that way, but I'm more than certain it was made for local multiplayer, because only one Gamepad works at a time. I could be wrong, but I would bet money on that if I could. Unfortunately they decided to call it the "Pro" controller, rather than the "multiplayer" controller, or something like that. A bad move on their part, because it gives people the perception that the pro controller is the "proper" controller.


2.) What experiences does it not cut it for? I can think of one thing that might be an issue and that's racing sims like GT. Please mention more, I'd like to know.

But by all means, continue to worship the controller for the checkboxes it ticks off the list rather than its ability to convince people to actually play games with it.  This argument is too stupid for me to waste any more time on it.

And there lies the problem I've been getting at. Gamer perception and Nintendo's marketing. Gamers are a whiny, volatile group. We know this. They take one look at the Gamepad and say, "Nope! It's different! I don't want it." And then Nintendo doesn't market it correctly, and the media keeps referring to it as the Wii U Tablet instead of the Gamepad, and gamers are still pissed over what happened with the Wii and apply the word "gimmick" to everything they do, and Nintendo stupidly called the other controller the "pro". People shouldn't need convincing to play games with the Gamepad, because like we've been over, it's just as capable as every other controller. But for some reason there's this preconceived notion that it can't be used to play "normal" games just because it's not exactly the same as what we're used to. And obviously that's idiotic. People should only need convincing to buy the system itself, and obviously all that takes is good games. After that no convincing should be needed to use the Gamepad rather than going out and buying a "pro", because it works and works well. Unfortunately for Nintendo, gamers can't see past the "gimmick" and notice that there is a perfectly capable normal controller right in front of them.


And with that, I've made my points. I'm also done with this discussion. Goodnight.

Thank you very much for that. You articulated perfectly what I was thinking.
 
  People across the industry and forums seem to be losing their minds because I don't understand what is so hard about the Gamepad. Core gamers complain when the controller is too unique for 3rd party homogenization across platforms (gamecube, wii). Core gamers complain when the controller is not unique enough for 3rd party homogenization across plaforms (complaing that the gamepad screen isn't useful or unique enough a feature, "lack" of third party ideas to differentiate it). Nintendo can't win.  I can't wait until the next xbox and ps4 are revealed so we can see what unique thing (if any) they bring with their controllers.  I bet they will copy Nintendo (like always) and incorporate some kind of touch functionality to their controller.  What will people say then? Nothing. 3rd party incorporation of unique features like kinect 2.0 or some such?
"We got tons of stuff we wanna do!"
I'm gonna book mark this post just to see if this happens. 


Nintendo is the only reason why I have stuck with console gaming.  They seek every generation to make gaming a fresh and unique experience by experimenting with the one thing that dramatically effects players, how you interact with the game. Nobody takes that risk first and with such commitment than Nintendo and they are crapped on for it every time.  But what's worse is they are copied almost immediately afterwards and no one bats an eye!


If a person prefers to experience games through a traditional controller only, thats fine. But stop acting like things like motion or touch do absolutely nothing to improve on how we interact with games.

[Ian Sane]

I think a big part of it all is that it isn't just that Nintendo tries some new controller idea but they really do the hard sell.  They're telling us that this is the new way to do it.  It's human instinct to push back.  "Who are you to tell ME how to play MY games?" and that can apply for both players and developers.

With the Wii Nintendo took functionality AWAY.  They didn't add, they CHANGED it and, ****, why would we want to change?  That instantly put motion control under a microscope.  They now had to PROVE that this was actually better than what we had before, and they had to do with while facing an already existing bias against an instinctive desire to not change something we were all used to.  Well this has created a reputation.  "Oh, Nintendo, is telling me how to control my games AGAIN."  Backlash is instinctive.  Sony and MS will probably just copy the ideas but not act like this is the new standard and they know what's best for us and all that other condescending bullshit Nintendo spouts off.

Still the problem isn't that third parties aren't using the Gamepad, it's that they aren't supporting the Wii U pretty much at all.  We got some PS360 ports and not that much else.  And the Gamepad isn't the issue.  They're all waiting to see if this is going to get lapped by the PS4 and Xbox 720 because they have no desire in making what will be "last gen" games on the Wii U.  They're not interested in casual games so they have to see what sort of audience is going to embrace the Wii U.  Despite how much money Nintendo made last gen the Wii turned off everyone but casuals and diehard Nintendo nuts.  So everyone is going to just come back instantly?  We're all still waiting to see if this is just another Wii.

[Razorkid]

... Sony and MS will probably just copy the ideas but not act like this is the new standard and they know what's best for us and all that other condescending bullshit Nintendo spouts...

I've never got that impression from Nintendo ever. They've never (to my knowledge) ever stated or implied that traditional controls were inferior or suddenly obsolete. My impression is that they introduce new ways to play in order to produce innovation in gameplay and to break down the barriers of entry to videogames. Yes they took functionality away with the Wii mote and nunchuck, but they also added the option of using the classic controller for those adverse to the Wii's native setup. Did WiiSports need the wiimote to play? No. Was it more fun using motion instead of buttons? To me, yes. I think that feeling of condescension was more spurred by your argument of gamers' instant resistance to anything new or taking what Nintendo was saying to instruct its new casual audience as something directed towards you.

In any event, I agree with your points about why 3rd parties are being so tepid with the WiiU and once again I cannot wait until these new consoles are announced along with software so that we can finally see where the WiiU will stand with 3rd parties in this next gen ecosystem.

[azeke]

Do you even lift?

This is one of the many reasons i hate Inspector Redwood (guy from 4chan who invented this meme).

Yes, Gamepad is too heavy. It's also too big and requires to be connected to power wire almost at all times (what's the point of making a wireless controller then).

Also, gamepad screen when you're not looking at it can be distracting (yes you don't see it fully , but i still can see some flickering and motion on my peripheral vision). You can switch it off in settings, but when you touch the screen or push any button it turns on again. Hopefully they will patch this.

[EasyCure]

Do you even lift?

This is one of the many reasons i hate Inspector Redwood (guy from 4chan who invented this meme).

Yes, Gamepad is too heavy. It's also too big and requires to be connected to power wire almost at all times (what's the point of making a wireless controller then).

Also, gamepad screen when you're not looking at it can be distracting (yes you don't see it fully , but i still can see some flickering and motion on my peripheral vision). You can switch it off in settings, but when you touch the screen or push any button it turns on again. Hopefully they will patch this.

I agree with everything but the heavy part.

[Oblivion]

The GamePad is NOT heavy. At all. And what about it having to be wired? I put mine in the cradle whenever I'm not using it. I only had to plug it in when I was playing once.

[Razorkid]

The GamePad is NOT heavy. At all. And what about it having to be wired? I put mine in the cradle whenever I'm not using it. I only had to plug it in when I was playing once.

I agree and mirror this opinion.

[Caterkiller]

The GamePad is NOT heavy. At all. And what about it having to be wired? I put mine in the cradle whenever I'm not using it. I only had to plug it in when I was playing once.

I agree and mirror this opinion.

I also mirror this opinion, which makes this opinion infinite. Infinitee equates to truth.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Honestly? I'd just rather just use the pro controller. It sits more comfortably in my hands than the Gamepad. Also, I do find the images on the Gamepad screen to be distracting.

[EasyCure]

different strokes for different folks I guess, just some folk like to be a little louder about about their strokes when they have issues with them

For me:

1. NOT heavy

2. I've had a few long gaming sessions where I had to plug it in while playing but it's NOT a problem because I have multiple outlets close to my many gaming positions so its non-issue. Oh and I just make sure its fully charged before I start anyway.

3. Gamepad's screen is only distracting when I'm using netflix, since you can't turn the screen off (without pausing the movie.. and not being able to unpause it without turning the screen back on. Patch please...) but the easy solution; throw it under a pillow or blanket and make sure I don't sit/lay on it.

[JasonMaivia]

Is the GamePad comfortable for 2D fighting games, like Street Fighter?
Is it comfortable to keep your thumbs placed on the D-Pad and a/b/x/y buttons, and still be able to quickly hit all four shoulder buttons without shifting your thumb's positions?

[broodwars]

3. Gamepad's screen is only distracting when I'm using netflix, since you can't turn the screen off (without pausing the movie.. and not being able to unpause it without turning the screen back on. Patch please...) but the easy solution; throw it under a pillow or blanket and make sure I don't sit/lay on it.

OK, try doing that while playing New Super Mario Bros. U with the only decent controller it supports (the GamePad) and tell me how that works out.  : :   Yeah, I find the GamePad very distracting to use when all it's doing is duplicating the same image I can already see on my better TV.

As for the "heaviness" issue people have with the GamePad, I think everyone's just using the wrong word here.  It isn't "heavy".  It's "bulky" due to its weight being spread out across a controller that's just way too big.  By contrast, the Pro Controller may weigh about the same (if not maybe a little less), but because the weight is concentrated in a form that's easier to hold with a single hand we don't notice it so much.

My central issue with the GamePad besides the screen, though, is that I find the buttons and sticks harder to reach due to its size and its form.  It's a very flat & wide controller, whereas the Pro Controller is more rounded.  There are at least two different ways to hold the GamePad depending on whether you want to use the L & R buttons or the LZ & RZ buttons.  I really haven't found a good way to hold the GamePad so your trigger fingers can quickly switch between the two sets of shoulder buttons without repositioning my entire hand.  I don't have that issue with the Pro Controller, even if it is still pretty uncomfortable IMO for the right stick to be between the shoulder and face buttons.

[EasyCure]

3. Gamepad's screen is only distracting when I'm using netflix, since you can't turn the screen off (without pausing the movie.. and not being able to unpause it without turning the screen back on. Patch please...) but the easy solution; throw it under a pillow or blanket and make sure I don't sit/lay on it.

OK, try doing that while playing New Super Mario Bros. U with the only decent controller it supports (the GamePad) and tell me how that works out.  : :   Yeah, I find the GamePad very distracting to use when all it's doing is duplicating the same image I can already see on my better TV.

I have played it and I prefer it over the wiimote. Not an issue for me because even if my glance does slip downward, I keep playing the game Do I wish there were a way to turn the screen off ? Yes, for battery saving purposes but its not really a distraction.

[Oblivion]

You can turn off the screen.