Author Topic: Game Journalism  (Read 127399 times)

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Offline Stratos

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #450 on: February 14, 2010, 04:48:22 PM »
I think KDR has a point there. We should really not be looking at metacritic scores and instead be looking at Amazon reviews. Because that is actually showing what the userbase is buying and enjoying.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #451 on: February 14, 2010, 05:09:02 PM »
And by reviews, you need to look at the good reviews... not the one star "Nintendo IZ KIEEDDIEZ!" reviews written by 10 year olds. Unfortunately, those types of reviews are common. I also see a lot of one star reviews from people bitching about the seller. Umm, you write reviews about the product, not the ones selling it.

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Offline Mop it up

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #452 on: February 14, 2010, 05:41:32 PM »
Obviously consumer reviews aren't relevant, because customers don't know what they want and don't know what a good game is.

By the way, can anyone tell me who Gordon Ramsay is?

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #453 on: February 14, 2010, 05:59:24 PM »
Gordon Ramsay is a chef who is the host of several shows, all of which feature him swearing profusely.  There's a reality show called Hell's Kitchen where he picks the top chef out of several contestants, and another in which he takes failing restaurants and turns them around.  He obviously very smart and probably a great chef, but his gimmick is that he's a straight shooter with extreme potty mouth.

As for the Amazon review stuff, you can apply the same logic to movies.  The critics hated Transformers 2, but as of January 2010 it's grossed over $400 million in the U.S.  Does that make it a good movie?  No.  Does it matter?  Not really.  But it's an indication that the quality of something in the eyes of critics is entirely different than what sells to consumers that aren't looking at it with a critical eye.

Most consumers just want to be entertained for a little while, and aren't concerned about whether or not something stacks up against the critical darlings of its medium.  This is exactly the audience that Nintendo strove to reach with Wii, and they knocked it out of the park.  Sony and Microsoft didn't strive to reach that market; they chose to gear their systems towards high-concept, high-production-value games.  That's why they're getting those types of games now.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #454 on: February 14, 2010, 07:24:59 PM »
Most consumers just want to be entertained for a little while, and aren't concerned about whether or not something stacks up against the critical darlings of its medium.  This is exactly the audience that Nintendo strove to reach with Wii, and they knocked it out of the park.  Sony and Microsoft didn't strive to reach that market; they chose to gear their systems towards high-concept, high-production-value games.  That's why they're getting those types of games now.

The HD consoles strove to reach the sorts of game that resemble Summer Blockbusters. I love me a Summer Blockbuster, but I'm hoping that the Wii can provide the equivalent of movies that come out at all other times of the year, from feel-good romantic comedies, family friendly action-adventure fare, to obscure, modest, but provocative indie flicks.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #455 on: February 14, 2010, 08:19:41 PM »
The idea of putting the blockbuster games on the 360/PS3 because that's where the audience is isn't a good one.

I'd guess (I'd love to see some hard stats) that 50-75% of PS3/360 owners also have a Wii.  With a "blockbuster" Wii title, you'd have a chance at a good percentage of PS3/360 owners *and* the Wii's larger audience.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #456 on: February 15, 2010, 02:14:56 AM »
And by reviews, you need to look at the good reviews... not the one star "Nintendo IZ KIEEDDIEZ!" reviews written by 10 year olds. Unfortunately, those types of reviews are common. I also see a lot of one star reviews from people bitching about the seller. Umm, you write reviews about the product, not the ones selling it.

Morons.

Well, the reviews I cited there were well written and lengthy, the angry ones specifically pointed at the game's failings.

Offline broodwars

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #457 on: February 15, 2010, 03:01:48 AM »
Most consumers just want to be entertained for a little while, and aren't concerned about whether or not something stacks up against the critical darlings of its medium.  This is exactly the audience that Nintendo strove to reach with Wii, and they knocked it out of the park.  Sony and Microsoft didn't strive to reach that market; they chose to gear their systems towards high-concept, high-production-value games.  That's why they're getting those types of games now.

The HD consoles strove to reach the sorts of game that resemble Summer Blockbusters. I love me a Summer Blockbuster, but I'm hoping that the Wii can provide the equivalent of movies that come out at all other times of the year, from feel-good romantic comedies, family friendly action-adventure fare, to obscure, modest, but provocative indie flicks.

Interesting that you would say that just a little over a week before Heavy Rain comes out on the PS3, and if that isn't an "Indie film" game I don't know what is.  ;)

My big problem with 3rd party games on the Wii is that most of the best games are like candy: they're cheap and fun while they last, but there doesn't tend to be much to them and when you're done with them you probably don't want another.  I enjoyed both No More Heroes games to a point, but once I finished them I knew I would never play them again.  For some strange reason, my Wii games feel expendable in a way I haven't seen with any of my other consoles.  I'm really hoping to someday see a 3rd party release something equivalent to an experience like Metroid Prime 3 or even Fire Emblem - Radiant Dawn: something meaty that I can really dig into, and when I'm done I probably want to go back and play it again.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #458 on: February 15, 2010, 03:07:13 AM »
I'd guess (I'd love to see some hard stats) that 50-75% of PS3/360 owners also have a Wii.
I wonder what that number is myself, though personally I think it is lower than that. One thing which seems to hold true is that people prefer the XBox 360 or PS3 versions of multi-platform games over the Wii version, so any big "blockbuster title" would have to be exclusive to Wii in order to attract attention.

Offline Stratos

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #459 on: February 15, 2010, 04:35:15 AM »
I'd guess (I'd love to see some hard stats) that 50-75% of PS3/360 owners also have a Wii.
I wonder what that number is myself, though personally I think it is lower than that. One thing which seems to hold true is that people prefer the XBox 360 or PS3 versions of multi-platform games over the Wii version, so any big "blockbuster title" would have to be exclusive to Wii in order to attract attention.

Guess that makes me in the minority as I will go for the Wii version first whenever given the chance unless the Wii version is a disaster.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #460 on: February 15, 2010, 08:11:51 AM »
What "Blockbuster" games have been multi-platform and on the Wii so far?
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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #461 on: February 15, 2010, 11:46:02 AM »
My big problem with 3rd party games on the Wii is that most of the best games are like candy: they're cheap and fun while they last, but there doesn't tend to be much to them and when you're done with them you probably don't want another.

This is sort of the point I'm trying to make.  This is EXACTLY the type of quick-hit gaming that Nintendo wanted to engender with the design and marketing of Wii, and they executed it perfectly.  Most third-party titles go along with this concept.  The Wii was never really sold as a platform for huge, expansive, immersive gaming, so it's not getting those games.  It's not like Nintendo came out of the gate and said, "We want the Wii to be the pre-eminent MMORPG platform of this generation".  No, instead they said, "We want Wii to be the platform that all gamers can enjoy, regardless of age, gender, or how much time you can spend playing."  It's no surprise that games like "Demon's Souls" aren't made for it.  The platform was never sold as being meant for the audience of those games, ever.  Over time, that audience never really materialized either, so there you go.

The idea of putting the blockbuster games on the 360/PS3 because that's where the audience is isn't a good one.

I'd guess (I'd love to see some hard stats) that 50-75% of PS3/360 owners also have a Wii.  With a "blockbuster" Wii title, you'd have a chance at a good percentage of PS3/360 owners *and* the Wii's larger audience.

"Isn't a good one"?  That's crazy talk.  People that already own a PS3/360 and a Wii are buying those types of titles...on PS3/360.  Why on earth would they even bother with anything like that in the Wii library when there's 10 similar - and better - games on PS3/360?  And by "better" I mean more immersive graphics and a larger, more expansive game world, excellent online capabilities and integration, and substantial downloadable content.  Basically what you're saying here is that, for example, Bethesda would have been smarter to release Fallout 3 on Wii, and I would say that that is absolute nonsense.  It wouldn't have been half the game it is on the other platforms, and it wouldn't have sold nearly as much, because the audience for it isn't on Wii.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #462 on: February 15, 2010, 12:36:52 PM »
The audience isn't there because they never brought that game, or any game similar to it, to build the audience in the first place.

And there are plenty of people that would pick up a Wii version over the HD version simply for better control scheme. Too bad no gamer has ever really been put in the situation of having to choose since no big "blockbuster" titles have been released at the same time on a HD system and Wii. And I'm talking about games on the level of GTA, Final Fantasy or even Fallout 3.

It just hasn't happened so it's pointless to even have a debate over why there is no audience. It's a chicken vs egg conversation. These same types of games were made last generation on the graphically weakest system and there was no issue with making Grand Epic and expansive gaming. Most developers/publishers are treating the Wii like it is a spin-off of a gaming system and therefore doesn't deserve the respect and attention that the other consoles (past and present) get. They need to Raise Their Standards just as we have Raised Our Expectations. It's as simple as that.

how do I always get sucked back into this thread.

Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #463 on: February 15, 2010, 12:46:04 PM »
Quote from: BlackNMild2k1 link=topic=30478.msg585938#msg585938
These same types of games were made last generation on the graphically weakest system and there was no issue with making Grand Epic and expansive gaming.

The difference between the PS2 and the Xbox/Gamecube, as compared to the difference between the Wii and the Xbox 360/PS3, is hardly the same.  The two gaps are miles apart.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #464 on: February 15, 2010, 01:02:57 PM »
Doesn't mean the same type of games can't be made across both.
The Wii is not a leper that requires you make it something completely different and separate. Epic gaming wasn't invented on the HD consoles.

Why does almost every developer feel that the same games they were making last gen are only suitable now for HD systems and to make the same game with lesser graphics is impossible and there is no audience for them. Who bought 62 million Wiis? who was buying those same games on the 120million* PS2's?

Lots of us are the same gamers that were gaming on the same games as last gen. Now we are an under-served community who are just tired of being fed table scraps, left-overs and steaming piles of crap. There is nothing about the Wii that is so different to what we've already had (other than pointer controls) that it requires a radically different approach to game genre, scope, appearance, content and effort.

Offline Stratos

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #465 on: February 15, 2010, 01:06:06 PM »
Quote from: BlackNMild2k1 link=topic=30478.msg585938#msg585938
These same types of games were made last generation on the graphically weakest system and there was no issue with making Grand Epic and expansive gaming.

The difference between the PS2 and the Xbox/Gamecube, as compared to the difference between the Wii and the Xbox 360/PS3, is hardly the same.  The two gaps are miles apart.

Then how come Modern Warfare ported beautifully to Wii? The gap may be larger, but that doesn't mean that it's not possible to port it. And MW Reflex is selling well on Wii.
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Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #466 on: February 15, 2010, 01:08:59 PM »
I didn't claim it was impossible to port.  I simply said that the differences aren't comparable, so to suggest that "well, least powerful didn't matter LAST gen!" is a completely flawed argument.  Certainly, porting is more difficult than it was before, from PS2 to Gamecube.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #467 on: February 15, 2010, 01:11:14 PM »
And I wasn't arguing about which system was least powerful last gen, but that the systems of last gen are weaker than the Wii and the weakest of them all was getting the same games that the HD systems are getting today yet seem to almost never make their way over to the Wii. Why is that?

Offline NWR_DrewMG

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #468 on: February 15, 2010, 01:15:15 PM »
Well, it's not about whether the Wii is capable of running the software, obviously.
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Offline Stratos

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #469 on: February 15, 2010, 01:24:34 PM »
What "Blockbuster" games have been multi-platform and on the Wii so far?

As I've stated before, Modern Warfare Reflex is an occasion of this. Sure, it was late, but since I tend to be late at buying many games I chose the version with what I view as the superior control options. Also, Guitar Heroes I would argue are blockbuster games.

I would buy more of them if more were released multi-platform. But interestingly enough, most of the ones that have been multiplatform were games that universally flopped (Alone in the Dark) or released broken. Godfather on Wii sold comparably to the other versions and was a quality port.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #470 on: February 15, 2010, 01:28:10 PM »
Well, it's not about whether the Wii is capable of running the software, obviously.

Obviously. It's about developers feeling the Wii is not worthy of the effort and therefore most of them don't even try.

On basically the only example of a big title being on all 3 systems at somewhere around the same time, Guitar Hero 3 (?), it sold best on the Wii, or atleast significantly outsold the PS3 version, and it probably would have cost less to put a team on porting it to the Wii with SD assets than it would to port it over to the PS3 and optimize it. ROI was obviously better on the Wii version than it was on the PS3/HD version so why can't that be used as an example of where the gaming audience is?

I believe TW10 sold best on the Wii too, so it's can't be that there aren't any gamers that wouldn't buy the Wii version over the HD version if they had the chance either.

So what is it about the Wii that makes developers/publishers so confused that they sign off of almost nothing but low budget crap or low profile gaming that they wouldn't even bother to advertise?

Some might say that they don't believe the audience it there. Well, how would they know? When have they released a game that would interest that audience, informed the world that it was being developed and then advertised so that we knew when it came out? To be honest, they haven't..... yet.

edit: Stratos, how can you consider MW[reflex] a blockbuster? When has a blockbuster movie ever gotten a quiet release under the blanket of it's sequels release? MW2 on the HD systems was a Blockbuster title as it got the blockbuster advertising and marketing that it needed. MW[reflex] got no such treatment.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 01:36:29 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #471 on: February 15, 2010, 04:08:28 PM »
The audience isn't there because they never brought that game, or any game similar to it, to build the audience in the first place.

Neither did Nintendo, and last time I checked, they built the hardware so they had first crack at making games for it.  Therefore, they had the first opportunity to build an audience for any type of game they wanted, and chose to focus on titles like Wii Sports.  This is what I mean when I say that third parties cannot solely be blamed for the lack of an audience for certain game genres on Wii.

ROI was obviously better on the Wii version than it was on the PS3/HD version so why can't that be used as an example of where the gaming audience is?

You would think so, but you also don't know how many hours of coding were required to bring the Wii's online experience up to par with the PS3/360 online experience.  It may have required more work than the other two platforms, since Sony and Microsoft probably have better networking development support, tools, and middleware than Nintendo.  You rarely see Wii games with the level of seamless online integration that the Guitar Hero games have, which leads me to believe that the quality online component of the GH games has more to do with extra work done by Vicarious Visions rather than anything Nintendo is supplying them.  Guitar Hero is also a bad example since its graphics are pretty simplistic, and don't vary much from platform to platform.
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Offline Urkel

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #472 on: February 15, 2010, 04:31:38 PM »
Quote
Therefore, they had the first opportunity to build an audience for any type of game they wanted, and chose to focus on titles like Wii Sports.

Factually inaccurate.
 
Quote

 This is what I mean when I say that third parties cannot solely be blamed for the lack of an audience for certain game genres on Wii.


Third parties cry manly tears when they have to compete with Nintendo. If Nintendo had made some online FPS the first year Wii was out, you'd be saying how third parties are justified in not bringing those kinds of games to the system because they have to compete with Brown Shooter Wii, so they're better off sticking to the HD consoles.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #473 on: February 15, 2010, 04:41:19 PM »
Nintendo is damned if they do and damned if they don't. It's already known that Nintendo doesn't make certain types of games and relies on 3rd parties to fill those genres. Nintendo purposely doesn't make certain types of games to allow 3rd parties to have a sector of the market to thrive in. Now Nintendo is at fault for not making those games where if they did, 3rd parties would be complaining about not being able to compete with Nintendo since they already make this type of game and blah blah blah.
all I see is a long line with shame on one end and blame on the other. All that's happening is 3rd parties are connecting both ends. Now we have a circle of shame and blame.

As far a GH3 is concerned though, it may be a bad example, but I've yet to see anyone present a better one. There aren't many big games that got marketed and released on the Wii/PS3/360 at the same time.

Offline Kairon

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Re: The 3rd Party Wall of Shame
« Reply #474 on: February 15, 2010, 05:02:15 PM »
The audience isn't there because they never brought that game, or any game similar to it, to build the audience in the first place.

Neither did Nintendo, and last time I checked, they built the hardware so they had first crack at making games for it.  Therefore, they had the first opportunity to build an audience for any type of game they wanted, and chose to focus on titles like Wii Sports.  This is what I mean when I say that third parties cannot solely be blamed for the lack of an audience for certain game genres on Wii.

Actually, Ubisoft was there early in launch period with a slew of core games. Most were ports, and most were poorly ported but... Far Cry Vengeance was my favorite FPS in the Wii launch period.
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