Author Topic: The Next Console Generation Will Be The Last...... Except For Nintendo  (Read 11912 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
Ubisoft’s Yves Guillemot Says The Next Console Generation Will Be The Last

I saw this article last night then saw The Perm’s post, but I thought it deserved its own thread instead of being tucked into the Switch Port Begging thread.

Basically, Guillemot believes we’re headed into a streaming only future after the next generation of consoles. Despite being the CEO of a major publisher, it’s too early for him to know any concrete plans. Guillemot may be basing this on moves and statements Sony and Microsoft have made.

PlayStation CEO, John Kodera, recently said PS4 is “entering the end of its lifecycle” and the next generation of PlayStation is three years away. To me, three years is still a long time. It would put the end of next generation around 2029-2030. Kodera also said, “We need to depart from the traditional way of looking at the console cycle. We’re no longer in a time when you can think just about the console or just about the network like they’re two different things.” Kodera said this around the same time Sony CEO, Kenichiro Yoshida, implied that content, software, services, and subscriptions are a path forward for the company. Hmm.

And Microsoft? It hasn’t been acting like a company that wants to focus on hardware anymore. Microsoft no longer releases Xbox One sales numbers (probably because PS4 is trouncing it), said Xbox One X is “not for everyone,” allows Xbox games to stream to a PC, and introduced Xbox Play Anywhere, an Xbox One/PC crossbuy program. Microsoft supports Xbox One because it’s already out and bailing on the console now would interfere with what it wants to do in the future: transition Xbox into a software-based platform. This isn’t an original idea. People have been talking about it for years.

Nintendo has put itself in a position to not give up hardware even if merging its console and handheld into one device might suggest it will eventually downsize to no hardware. It wants one Switch per person, not household. The path to getting there is dropping the cost of entry. While I personally prefer to use Switch as a home console, lurking through ResetEra and comment sections suggests the opposite for other people. I often read comments like “I hope [Game X] is released on Switch so I can play it on the go.” Nintendo finally released hardware that people can hope a game releases on the platform without it sounding crazy.

For me, Switch is almost good enough to be “good enough.” It gets a ton of indie games and some current generation games thanks to scaling. “Good enough” is when we don’t question whether a game will come to a platform; it will abeit with worse graphics except we won’t care. In 2004, Satoru Iwata famously said technical specs don’t matter. Whenever Nintendo releases the successor to Switch, those words may finally hold some weight for developers. Better specs will yield diminishing returns. What people will want is convenience.

If Sony is hinting at eventually moving forward as a services and content provider and Microsoft is practically already doing that, Nintendo may be the last hardware manufacturer which would be weird because after Sega, a lot of people thought Nintendo would be the next to withdraw. No matter how good streaming gets in 10 to 12 years, will it ever be consistent enough to move away from the current model? I think there will always be a niche of people who want dedicated gaming hardware because it’s easy, tangible, and reliable. And that’s where the successors of Switch fit in.

TLDR:
1. Microsoft will never release a true successor to Xbox One meant to compete with Sony and Nintendo.
2. Sony will release a successor because PlayStation is too popular not to. However, it wants to transition out of hardware because even back in 1999, Sony’s former CEO, Nobuyuki Idei, warned that “The hardware business is peanuts.”
3. Nintendo will never stop releasing dedicated gaming hardware because it’s happy with its niche, and Switch is the company’s path to being successful there.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 05:26:05 PM by Adrock »

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
I can see Microsoft leaving, maybe making a surface set top box. Sony will hang on, and Nintendo too. Time for Amazon to jump in!

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Microsoft is leaving the console biz.  The Xbox One is irrelevant.  I would consider the Wii U more relevant than it, simply because of the exclusives (though they're all being ported to the Switch).  The only reason to own an XB1 over a PS4 is if you're a big Halo or Gears of War nut and those franchises aren't even being made by their original devs anymore.

If streaming is the future then the devs don't even need a hardware standard to go on anymore.  They just need a receiver of sorts.  The cloud server that runs the game can be whatever they want.  I suppose a company like MS can find a market as a supplier of those servers.  Devs aren't going to make their own hardware that often, they'll want to use something standardized.  Though indy devs won't be able to use a streaming model as they won't have the finances to maintain servers.  The concept makes sense for Ubisoft but not small companies, unless they can "rent" server space on a bigger company's server.

Nintendo has a reason to stick with dedicated hardware simply because this streaming idea will not fly with a portable system.  You couldn't really rely on a stable internet connection on the go like that.  Someday in the future, sure, but not in the next few years.

Though if cloud gaming became the way to do it, Nintendo can always join with their own servers at any time.  There wouldn't need to be any proprietary system.  If you had an electronic device you could run the games.  I could see someone like Nintendo trying to make a closed system but I think once an open system was established you couldn't get away with it.  All the user should need is a controller, a screen, speakers and an internet connection.  Though I could see Nintendo then pushing wacky controllers again so that people have to buy THEIR controller to play their games.

I don't want cloud gaming to be the future since that gives up any sort of consumer ownership... but I'm an old fart in the grand scheme of things.  Millennials decide this, not me, and they don't have the same concerns as me.

Offline Luigi Dude

  • Truth Bomber
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Pretty much everyone behind the Xbox brand has left Microsoft by now.  Especially after Xbox One blew up in their face early on, I doubt the company wants to go through another messy hardware development.  The focus on cross-play Microsoft has been pushing makes it pretty clear to me they're planning on transitioning out of the current hardware model.
I’m gonna have you play every inch of this game! - Masahiro Sakurai

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
It makes the most sense for MS to be on the forefront of this.  They're in a great position to transition over to that sort of model.  Don't Surface tablets already play Xbox games? and connect to XB1 controllers?  They pitch the Xbox as something that works across devices and cloud computing just increases the number of devices.  They only thing they might think to add is an "Xbox Mini" that streams the games to a TV, something that's in a small package for people who still want something closer to a traditional gaming setup.
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.

Offline pokepal148

  • Inquire within for reasonable rates.
  • *
  • Score: -9967
    • View Profile
I feel like the only thing that kept Microsoft in the console business is that the 360 was successful enough to buy them a fair bit of relevance from the younger crowd. With that tarnished away I don't see them sticking around. I don't think they've ever made enough money off of the Xbox brand to make back what they've invested in it.

Right now, at the walmart I work at the Xbone doesn't have a demo kiosk when both the PS4 and Switch have one.

Offline lolmonade

  • I wanna ride dolphins with you in the moonlight until the staff at Sea World kicks us out
  • *
  • Score: 29
    • View Profile
The only reason I question whether Microsoft is really done with consoles is because they JUST recently released the Xbox One X.  That's a lot of effort into a box, even if it's an iterative one, for them to then decide to cede what market share/they have. 


Anyone whose watched the console space can tell how each console cycle has different outcomes for different reasons.  I just have a hard time seeing any of these three companies letting anyone else be the gatekeeper for their content digitally, and I still don't see that the larger market would be interested in figuring out how to set-up a PC to stream to their TV or what other alternative there'd be to a dedicated box under your TV.

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
It came out 5 years ago...it's not *that* recent.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
Nintendo has a reason to stick with dedicated hardware simply because this streaming idea will not fly with a portable system.  You couldn't really rely on a stable internet connection on the go like that.  Someday in the future, sure, but not in the next few years.
Yep. And despite the fact that Nintendo doesn't have a clear online strategy, people seem fine with this because Switch keeps selling. Portability seems to be driving those sales. Even in a streaming future, that's the area Nintendo can operate. With Microsoft's current lack of interest in hardware and Sony's apparent desire to stay ahead of the curve and abandon traditional consoles before consumers do, Nintendo finds itself in the unique position of potentially being the last and only hardware manufacturer.
Quote
I don't want cloud gaming to be the future since that gives up any sort of consumer ownership... but I'm an old fart in the grand scheme of things.  Millennials decide this, not me, and they don't have the same concerns as me.

I'm right there with you.
The only reason I question whether Microsoft is really done with consoles is because they JUST recently released the Xbox One X.  That's a lot of effort into a box, even if it's an iterative one, for them to then decide to cede what market share/they have.
Xbox One X still fits in with Microsoft's original messaging with Xbox One as an all-in-one media center (TV, sports etc). Unlike PS4 Pro, it even plays UHD Blu Ray discs. Additionally, Xbox One X helps bridge the gap with more capable PCs for Xbox Play Anywhere. I feel like Microsoft is leaning into the concept of Xbox as a platform rather than a console with Xbox One X being part of that strategy. Your guess is as good as mine.
Quote
I just have a hard time seeing any of these three companies letting anyone else be the gatekeeper for their content digitally, and I still don't see that the larger market would be interested in figuring out how to set-up a PC to stream to their TV or what other alternative there'd be to a dedicated box under your TV.
Similar to how there are what, 37 different TV/movie streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, HBO Go etc, we may see a similar collision course in the gaming space. If that comes to pass, someone is going to get pushed out. How much are these services going to cost?

I don't believe people will have much trouble setting up a gaming streaming service. By the time streaming is good enough for Sony, Microsoft, or another company even attempts this, the target audience will have grown up always having the Internet. Ultimately, I think it will depend on whether people accept it. There was massive pushback when Microsoft introduced Xbox One with all that DRM nonsense. If that criticism remains as strong in the future, there will always be a place for dedicated gaming hardware. Maybe Microsoft bails with Sony not far behind. I believe Nintendo hangs on for as long as it can.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 06:42:59 PM by Adrock »

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
I think a bombshell for Sony might be consoles as we know it might be done. It might be confusing and shocking to gamers, but it makes total business sense.

AMD will be in Charge of consoles and Xbox and Playstation will be Stores inside of a console/PCs. Nintendo will of course do their own thing.

I tend to look at things from a "What's going on in that box/bubble?"

AMD makes both the CPU and GPU of both PS4 and Xbox One. They used to make Nintendo's but Nintendo was given the opportunity to jump ship. If you buy a PS4 or Xbox One you're pretty much buying an "AMD Box"

Nintendo must have some reason to Switch companies. They had years with AMD and I think that it was odd for them to go a different route. We should be clear though. Nvidia was more advanced with mobile SOC chips with its Tegra line. Nintendo could have switched for that reason. They could have switch however if: AMD put their dick on the table.

Sony and Microsoft are reliant on AMD. They could go to IBM or some new Chinese manufacturer or they could play ball with AMD. Sony could make their product in-house but this would probably cost them 2 billion dollars in R&D. I'm not sure of their current relationships with nVidia or how Nintendo's relationship with nVidia might affect Sony and Microsofts. There have been indications of burned bridges between nVidia and the big 2.

A reductive way to eliminate 2 consoles with the same architecture is to just have one console. Having 2 VCRs with different labels and different color boxes is the main difference. The hardware is marginally different. Enough to satisfy contracts. It is an artifice. Sony particularly might not like that, but they might not have a choice in the short term. They may not even have a choice in the long term either. I recall 3dfx being the dominant graphics company and just being -poof- gone over night. Sony is in a good position though now. They have 4 generations of Software. Many of which were developed by them and are classic. Microsoft also is in a good position to do this. Xbox is 3 generations, but they also have Classic PC stuff.

Sony actually has a service called PSNOW that lets you play Playstation games on the PC. You can play PS2, PSP and Playsation games, but it hasn't expanded to more. But it could.

Microsoft has been Platform agnostic for a while. Minecraft is on every system. "Xbox Exclusives" tend to be playable on the PC.

Discs as a format are dying. Buying games at retail is dying

Also a note. Consoles are all HD now. Back in the day what really separated a console from a PC was that a PC had a superVGA moniter and a keyboard and mouse, and a console had controllers and was NTSC or Pal. You could run office software or unsigned software on the PC and you could upgrade it every few months like an insane person. The difference between a console and a PC are much slimmer now. It's only input and software for the most part. The most consolesque system now is Switch.

Factor in Micro-consoles, Android, Apple, Steam, Possible Chinese brand Consoles.

I see consoles dying. Well in the Exclusive sense. I see console becoming generic. But not necessarily this upcoming generation. Maybe AMD isn't going to play this political game. It is coming eventually though. All of these companies will need to adapt to survive in the future games business.

I don't see cloud gaming taking off for a long time though. We need reliable internet in the United States for that. Local storage still seems to be the way to go.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 07:13:59 PM by ThePerm »
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline Shaymin

  • Not my circus, not my monkeys
  • NWR Staff
  • Score: 70
    • View Profile
    • You're on it
It came out 5 years ago...it's not *that* recent.
I think he's talking about the One X.
As a platform, the One is normally at the point where traditionally Microsoft likes to see domination (3rd iteration, see IE, Windows itself), but I don't see the current leadership thinking the same way.
Donald Theriault - News Editor, Nintendo World Report / 2016 Nintendo World Champion
Tutorial box out.

Offline MagicCow64

  • Still no title
  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
Isn't the story with Nvidia and Switch that Nvidia had something of a botched product with the Tegra and offered Nintendo a deal they couldn't refuse to soak up the product line? Like I think there was speculation that it might have been near free so as to lock Nintendo into a multi-gen architecture and bail Nvidia out of a tight spot.

But anyway, I agree that it's basically pointless to have two identical AMD boxes, and that Microsoft doesn't really have any business in the console space anymore, but I also think they'll keep sticking it out indefinitely. They are currently rumored to be re-investing in game production after a rocky gen, which isn't what I would expect if they were fading out of dedicated hardware after the Xbone sunsets. Sunk cost fallacy? Corporate hubris? Comparative marginality to healthy enterprise sectors? Who knows, but I fully expect an XBOSS1080, perhaps leaning into the X dick-measuring brand.

In general, I don't think the internet infrastructure in the States will be anywhere near where it needs to be in any near-to-mid future to support streaming as a default. And depending on geography it might never be viable due to fundamental limitations of physics. I'm okay with this!

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Well the Switch is basically the same thing as the nVidia shield. It's rebranded to some extant, but Nintendo has a ton of user interface patents.

A graphics card company pretty much needs the backing of a major games company to make their systems sell. Nintendo and nVidia are talking like it's a romance. AMD might want to eliminate having so much divided R&D. They could possibly still call the generic system the respective name, much like they do now, though you could possibly have access to both stores in the future. The hardware doesn't really need to be different. They could go with radically different cosmetic box designs. I like switching up controllers and stuff. The NES Classic and Super Nintendo Classic are the same thing with different shells.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 08:06:20 AM by ThePerm »
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline MagicCow64

  • Still no title
  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
I think part of the issue with the hardware agnostic future is the corporate game theory behind such a scenario. Sure, it might ultimately be better if everyone dropped their proprietary hardware stances, but why would three corps in both present and historically tense competition trust each other to cooperate like that? In the same way that we'd all probably be better off if we didn't have to maintain nuclear weapon stockpiles, it could be better for these companies to finally meld with general computing paradigms. (And we've got the current example where Apple's cash cow hardware business is starting to wane.) But it's hard to imagine there being an advantage to any of the platform holders stepping back and inviting the others to join. And again, a lot of this would depend on somewhat fanciful views of how internet technology will shake out in an increasingly unregulated environment in the states.

I feel like the transition away from cable is perhaps an useful point of comparison. The initial dream was that you could cut the cord and enjoy a non-prescriptive suite of television/film programming at a fraction of the cost. Netflix was kind of that for a little bit! But the corporate priorities manifested, and now there are dozens of segregated streaming services that would add up to cable again. Ultimately there's an on-demand convenience advantage and a greater a la carte flexibility, but the stakeholders are stubbornly insisting on their piece, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. The primary difference compared to video games is that this is passive video entertainment that can be streamed on any screen, with far fewer technical concerns. When you involve actual significant processing power to get the content to work, it's even more fraught and riddled with patents. Whereas in the music space you can effectively access a massive amount of all recorded songs for free, legally. You don't need a screen or significant bandwidth compared to video content. And it is the cheapest and most utopian implementation of "cloud" content.

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
It's hard to say when it will happen. It will happen though. Sony and Microsoft might hold onto the console dream, while Nintendo has effectively abandoned it, but if they do hold onto it there will be some competitors, possibly some companies that don't exist or we've never heard of that will knock them off their thrones. Or possibly existing large companies that move in on their space. There were always rumors of Apple moving in, or Samsung, or google, or Amazon buying the Xbox division. The companies want their honey jar, but they're going to be swarmed by bees if they don't take their hand out and move onto a different one.

I wonder about Micro-consoles. Ouya may have been an unimpressive failure to some. But I made game demos for the system, and I think it was on the right track. I think the main thing it needed was more USB ports. That sounds like a small thing, but 2 more ports and you could do a whole ton more with the system. Maybe some more internal storage.
The Raspberry Pi has a lot going for it. I wonder how future more powerful versions are going to fair.  Even the current version is interesting. I think I'll install android on it and see how that goes. The right hobby micro-console  could become popular with some of the right steps.
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
Microsoft Confirms Xbox â€Scarlet’ And New Game Streaming Service
Quote
Phil Spencer said that the company’s cloud engineers are working to bring console-quality games streaming to any device. Microsoft already allows in-home game streaming with its Xbox console and the Xbox app on the PC and this streaming service is a natural extension of that experience. It’s also not hard to imagine that the streaming service will be linked to Xbox Game Pass too.
It certainly looks like next generation Xbox hardware will be released primarily for the purposes of pushing a game streaming service. Microsoft has never made money on Xbox hardware so I’d imagine it would love nothing more than to have the ability to eventually sell $50 streaming boxes (maybe with a controller) or convincing TV OEMs to include Xbox streaming software directly into Smart TVs specifically for people who don’t want to be fussed with messing around with a PCs. That isn’t a bad idea because Sony and Nintendo sure as hell won’t be keen to help Microsoft get Netflix-like head start on the games streaming pie.

At the same time, Microsoft has been cozying up to Nintendo lately. Maybe it’s playing the long-con in an attempt to sweet talk Nintendo into either allowing Xbox streaming on a Switch successor or just putting Nintendo games on the Xbox streaming service. Both? Doubt that works, but in the meantime, maybe we get Rare games on a Nintendo 64 Classic Edition and/or Banjo-Kazooie in Super Smash Bros. A girl can dream.

Additionally, it’s possible the larger publishers like EA and Activision try to launch their own streaming service or a bunch of them band together against Sony and Microsoft with a shared service like Hulu before it turns into a clusterfuck in which one of the partners tries to get a larger piece of the pie. Who’s going to be Disney/Comcast in this comparison?

EDIT: Here’s a link to Eurogamer’s A chat with Phil Spencer about next gen Xbox consoles.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 10:53:58 AM by Adrock »

Offline Mop it up

  • And I've gotta say...
  • Score: 125
    • View Profile
When I saw this title, I thought there would be people arguing about whether or not the Switch is 8th gen or 9th gen. I'm glad to see there isn't!

Myself, it's too early for me to start thinking about the next batch of systems. I don't even like thinking about the current systems.

Offline segagamersteph

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
I don't think the internet infrastructure is as big a hurdle as some claim. First, you won't need to download the entire game. In a digital store front yeah intrastructure is a hurdle because you need to download 25gb and up files, no everyone can do that easily.
However, a streaming service would be much easier. Think of Netflix and Blu Ray. an HD movie on BRD is 35 plus GB yet Netflix streaming works well. You could get by with download or preloading the first level and the game code, or the engine it runs on, then all you have to stream, gradually, is the different levels.

It's not ideal but it will happen. We all know it's coming. No I am not advocating for it but I just accept it's going to happen sooner or later.

There will be some games that suffer but the market has proven that despite inroads for digital downloads there are companies willing to invest in physical for the niche market. So, what's to stop a streaming service from existing that also allows downloads or limited physical for those who aren't ready to make the switch? I mean, Netflix is a streaming only service yet nothing stops them from also selling some of their content on DVD/Blu Ray, I can see that.
Also, who says all the companies have to unite and play nice? I mean we know the movie studios didn't come together to make 1 super streaming service, they keep splintering into smaller chunks. So who's to say Microsoft, Ubisoft, EA and Sony can't all offer their own platform and make it harder to get all the same games?

I would be okay with this model if it was a subscription service and games came in and out. Sure owning games would be a thing of the past but aside from old timers and OCD collectors, most people have moved past keeping all their games for life. We've gotten used to rebuying our movies and video games by now there's no turning back.
Not to mention, technically speaking, TV and radio have always been a streaming platform that delivers entertainment to a receiver box. The hardware and infrastructure is in place, I just think some people are holding onto the old way of thinking and companies aren't interested in preserving the old timers, they want the kids and the kids are growing up in a world without physical boarders.

Offline MagicCow64

  • Still no title
  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 10:00:13 AM by MagicCow64 »

Offline segagamersteph

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
I guess I rambled a little.

Offline MagicCow64

  • Still no title
  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
Sorry, I deleted a reply that was unnecessarily cranky. Mainly I meant to say that I think the infrastructure concerns are a big deal. Those "UHD" streaming versions of stuff are generally much lower quality than the disc versions (which are kind of languishing in the market anyway), and most people can't really tell. It doesn't really affect the actual function of the movies and shows and only a small percentage of dedicated AV nerds can really parse it.

Game-wise, it's much harder to pipe current-gen graphixx that require near-instant inputs over even a high-speed line, which most people don't have. Even where fiber is available, most people can't or won't pay for it. And there are just inherent latency issues that come into play based on how far you are from those servers doing the actual rendering. Like, if this were a moon shot priority it could probably be done, but I don't see the infrastructure and regulatory environment in the states getting there anytime soon, certainly not soon enough to be the backbone of a cloud ascension for the next generation.

Offline lolmonade

  • I wanna ride dolphins with you in the moonlight until the staff at Sea World kicks us out
  • *
  • Score: 29
    • View Profile
Sorry, I deleted a reply that was unnecessarily cranky. Mainly I meant to say that I think the infrastructure concerns are a big deal. Those "UHD" streaming versions of stuff are generally much lower quality than the disc versions (which are kind of languishing in the market anyway), and most people can't really tell. It doesn't really affect the actual function of the movies and shows and only a small percentage of dedicated AV nerds can really parse it.


Agreed, I think if you're in an area with an ISP that provides consistent and reliable internet, that's one thing.  I'm lucky to live in my area as its where the Mediacom is, but I'm still talking about paying $90/month for 100mpbs.  I used to get 500 when I left Raleigh NC, but they even didn't bother bumping their speed until Google announced they were coming with fiber.


The capability to have faster, better internet won't be the gatekeeper, it'll be the pseudo-monopolies for ISPs in the US and a large swath of our rural areas that are constricted to dial-up speeds that'd be the problem.

Offline segagamersteph

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
I think you are over thinking it. You're saying stream the whole game from a server. I am suggesting they download the core game, a small download to the box and stream the rest. Like you download the game engine and the first level and the rest streams to the console, it works half way between downloading the entire game and streaming the entire product. Not a perfect system but workable until the lines catch up.
Also, I think it's different with games than movies. Movies are large chunks of data that have to be streamed all at once, entire frames encoded with audio. A video game is mostly code, it does require some input from the user and no it won't work for every type of game which is why it will take a couple more generations to get fully there.

By the time it gets figured out the infrastructure issues will mostly not be an issue. I don't live in an area with high speed internet, I think I mentioned that before I am stuck on Hughesnet but I can stream Netflix just fine and I don't think video games will be that worse. Lag is an issue but obviously we're not here yet but we sure as hell are a lot close than we were ten years ago and in 5 years time we'll be even closer.

4G speeds are easily fast enough and even if you can't get fiber optic you won't need speeds that fast, you can easily do this with 4G wireless speeds and make it workable, not ideal but doable. Obviously game quality takes a hit but we took that hit to video quality with movies anyways, which you alluded to, and nobody seems to care.
There will still be a physical option for those who want that, it won't be an all streaming system, not yet, not for another 10 years. Which is what these two companies are pushing for, if the two largest players in the gaming industry are saying it will happen, I strongly believe it's going to happen.

BTW, I, agree it's not ideal and I am not advocating for an all streaming future just recognizing it is coming and we're now closer than ever. The same old tired argument speed isn't fast enough yet is out dated, how fast does it need to be to stream games? I think it can be done with 4G speeds, which is what 5meg? Who doesn't have that? I live in a small town in the dessert in the mountains middle of no where and I have faster than that. It won't be 4K gaming but that's not the point. It will be better for those with faster speeds but doable for the minimum. Playable and ideal are too different things. You're thinking lag free HD 60FPS, I am saying the market won't care the market will accept lag, slower speeds, lower frame rates, etc. for the convenience.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:54:31 PM by segagamersteph »

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
I think you are over thinking it. You're saying stream the whole game from a server. I am suggesting they download the core game, a small download to the box and stream the rest. Like you download the game engine and the first level and the rest streams to the console, it works half way between downloading the entire game and streaming the entire product.

That's still a console though.  It has dedicated hardware that runs the game, even if only part of it.  If Sony and MS were doing that they would still have separate platforms and games would have to be designed to run on both of them.  I think some games do this concept already.

I think what the Ubisoft is mentioning is that the device you play on doesn't run the game at all.  The actual processing of the game is all done on a server and the results are streamed to a receiver that aside from outputting the video/audio and sending the controller input back to the server does nothing else.  In a situation like that Ubisoft doesn't even need to bother working with Sony, MS or Nintendo.  They can create their own servers with whatever specs they like and output it to any device that can act as a receiver, like how Netflix works.  Your "console" is more like a TV and the game is like cable.

Offline segagamersteph

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
Ian, I agree that is what we are expecting for THIS upcoming generation. That will last what 5 years, then they will have the tech to launch a true streaming box.
I am fairly certain a Roku is still processing something. I think it only needs to have bare minimum hardware. I am also not expecting one universal platform, I seriously doubt that will ever happen. MS will have a platform, Steam will have theirs, Sony theirs, EA theirs, etc.

We're half way there now.

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Rokus have some hardware behind them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VideoCore

Probably somewhere between a Nintendo DS and Xbox 360, but with really good video playback capabilities.
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline lolmonade

  • I wanna ride dolphins with you in the moonlight until the staff at Sea World kicks us out
  • *
  • Score: 29
    • View Profile
I'd be lying if I said I was completely up to speed on streaming tech/services.


That said, 5mbps doesn't do matchmaking for games well, and doesn't do game streaming well, either.  Even from the argument of "download a portion of the game, then the streaming service will stream the rest", we're talking about spending an inordinate amount of time on that speed downloading a healthy amount of a 25+GB game, then having to hope that 5 mbps is stable enough to provide a consistent experience.  I don't see anyone talking about 60fps 4k like you're asserting.  We're Nintendo Fans, I think our expectations are lowered a bit :)


Do you have a steam link?  Have you tried streaming services?  I've used PS Now and a Steam link, and there's a wide variance in streaming quality anywhere below 100mbps, which is considered my area's "top-tier" residential package.  I can't gauge your theoretical of the bulk of the game being downloaded, because it's not in a state that's testable from a consumer standpoint, at least not at my home currently.


And from a business standpoint (someplace I AM a little more well versed in), like I mentioned before - ISPs and broad access to stable, consistent internet is going to be the problem.  A company like Sony's ability to sell their last-gen consoles to less developed nations afterwards is going to be a problem. 


To reiterate, not trying to be argumentative.  I'm just not sold anyone but Microsoft who has 1) a very limited footprint outside North America, and 2) Has incentive to integrate with their entire suite of products pushing hard for the all digital, all streaming future.

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
In certain places in the US you can get 1Gb speed.  New York, Connecticut, Delaware, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Texas, and California, and Florida from FIOS or Frontier. The Google Fiber has some territory. We would probably have superfast internet anywhere if out country was efficient. I used to get calls working at my old company about people wanting our fiber services, but alas there was some idiocy somewhere down the line. Replacing network infrastructure even with billions of dollars to spend seems to be impossible.
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
I live in a smaller city and we have a local company that's basically doing what Google Fiber is doing, buying up all the unused fiber cables that are already laid down and offering up to gigabit speeds. I think more places doing that is the only way we're ever going to see real penetration for that kind of speed. Unfortunately they don't currently offer their service where I live, but I've been thinking about moving and if I do one of my highest priorities will be going somewhere I can get that.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline BranDonk Kong

  • Eat your f'ing cat!
  • Score: 10131
    • View Profile
That processor is weak. It's good for video playback, because that's what it's designed for. Also there's like a miles-long gap between a DS and an Xbox 360 - it's certainly more powerful than a DS, but I'd imagine it's somewhat close to an Nvidia Tegra 4 (Ouya) in terms of power.
I think it says on the box, 'No Hispanics' " - Jeff Green of EA

Offline lolmonade

  • I wanna ride dolphins with you in the moonlight until the staff at Sea World kicks us out
  • *
  • Score: 29
    • View Profile
Yeah, I see "advanced" internet connectivity solutions and move away from physical to digital/streaming similarly to how I see the autonomous car going - the technology will be there, but bureaucracy, vested interests, and business incentives slow-walking progress will be what keeps us back more than the material capability for it to be a viable solution.

Offline MagicCow64

  • Still no title
  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
Yeah, I see "advanced" internet connectivity solutions and move away from physical to digital/streaming similarly to how I see the autonomous car going - the technology will be there, but bureaucracy, vested interests, and business incentives slow-walking progress will be what keeps us back more than the material capability for it to be a viable solution.
I think this is pretty spot on. I read a bit about the state of things after this thread, and Microsoft allegedly has super-low latency tech in place for remote desktops/Azure stuff. Theoretically this could be applied to gaming solutions, although the processing is more intense, and it would have to be outside of the enterprise pipelines where it currently works. So if this turns out to be true, you would be able to run current games playably if you lived within ~100 miles of the server and had a fiber connection running the distance. I have to imagine this will still be a rare set-up even in ten years, either through lack of infrastructure, geographic infelicity, or just plain affordability.

Offline lolmonade

  • I wanna ride dolphins with you in the moonlight until the staff at Sea World kicks us out
  • *
  • Score: 29
    • View Profile
Yeah, I see "advanced" internet connectivity solutions and move away from physical to digital/streaming similarly to how I see the autonomous car going - the technology will be there, but bureaucracy, vested interests, and business incentives slow-walking progress will be what keeps us back more than the material capability for it to be a viable solution.
I think this is pretty spot on. I read a bit about the state of things after this thread, and Microsoft allegedly has super-low latency tech in place for remote desktops/Azure stuff. Theoretically this could be applied to gaming solutions, although the processing is more intense, and it would have to be outside of the enterprise pipelines where it currently works. So if this turns out to be true, you would be able to run current games playably if you lived within ~100 miles of the server and had a fiber connection running the distance. I have to imagine this will still be a rare set-up even in ten years, either through lack of infrastructure, geographic infelicity, or just plain affordability.


Phil Spencer and Giant Bomb's Jeff Gerstmann actually had a good exchange on this subject too.  It'll likely be a gradual move as an "option" for games whose latency and fps aren't as important.  But they're decidedly not out of the "sell you a console" market.

Offline segagamersteph

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
I think it is the future, and we're a hell of a lot closer now than we were the last time this topic came up. The fact they keep pushing it, pushing downloads, streaming, internet connectivity it's inevitable. If this next gen lasts the usual 6 or 7 years and the current gen finishes its 6 years that puts us into 2030 before all this takes place, or 2028 at the earliest. By then internet connectivity will no longer be an issue, hell it's hardly an issue now.

Offline lolmonade

  • I wanna ride dolphins with you in the moonlight until the staff at Sea World kicks us out
  • *
  • Score: 29
    • View Profile
I think it is the future, and we're a hell of a lot closer now than we were the last time this topic came up. The fact they keep pushing it, pushing downloads, streaming, internet connectivity it's inevitable. If this next gen lasts the usual 6 or 7 years and the current gen finishes its 6 years that puts us into 2030 before all this takes place, or 2028 at the earliest. By then internet connectivity will no longer be an issue, hell it's hardly an issue now.




I disagree with your take on the state of the internet today, but could see a possibility that by Xbox Two and PS5s end-of-life, the landscape being drastically different.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 10:05:17 AM by lolmonade »



Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline MagicCow64

  • Still no title
  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
I mean, it's definitely a problem now. I live two miles from the downtown of the biggest city in my state and I can't get a fiber connection. The best internet package available to me is completely mediocre. There is a competing provider, but it's for a budget-level sub-broadband connection. Nobody has any plans to extend fiber to my neighborhood. Google Fiber was going to do the whole city, supposedly, but shut down due to regulatory turbulence/industry lobbying. I have family who live in the third biggest city in my state who are only serviced by one provider with absolutely horrendous speeds for their regular package, which is all they can afford. Like, 1 meg download speeds. Maybe President Elon Musk in 2025 will make this a top priority, but I doubt it.

Offline lolmonade

  • I wanna ride dolphins with you in the moonlight until the staff at Sea World kicks us out
  • *
  • Score: 29
    • View Profile
I mean, it's definitely a problem now. I live two miles from the downtown of the biggest city in my state and I can't get a fiber connection. The best internet package available to me is completely mediocre. There is a competing provider, but it's for a budget-level sub-broadband connection. Nobody has any plans to extend fiber to my neighborhood. Google Fiber was going to do the whole city, supposedly, but shut down due to regulatory turbulence/industry lobbying. I have family who live in the third biggest city in my state who are only serviced by one provider with absolutely horrendous speeds for their regular package, which is all they can afford. Like, 1 meg download speeds. Maybe President Elon Musk in 2025 will make this a top priority, but I doubt it.


I'm guessing Steph is suggesting that the technology behind gaming streaming will improve so that someone with 10-25 mbps will be able to play most games without much issue, rather than the rest of the country catching up on higher end internet speeds.


But who knows.  It's fair to say in a decade, we have no idea what the internet/technology landscape will look like.

Offline Soren

  • Hanging out in the Discord
  • *
  • Score: 35
    • View Profile
Throwing some numbers into this discussion.
https://gizmodo.com/if-streaming-is-the-future-of-console-gaming-it-might-1827056790

Quote
According to Akamai, the average internet speed in the United States is just 18.7Mbps, which would deliver just 720p at 60fps. Worse, a quarter of homes in the U.S. are unable to get broadband-level speeds, which is defined as 25Mbps or higher. In fact, only one in five houses can get 25Mbps. Which means only one in five houses could effectively stream games—and even then, not at the quality they might be accustomed to when playing directly off a console.


My YouTube Channel: SenerioTV

Offline segagamersteph

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
But it's a moving goal post. A few years ago broadband was defined as 3 Meg speeds. Now it's 25.

The problem you all are having is you are expecting 1080p 60 FPS full HD rnedering and I am saying the market will accept a lower quality product to make this happen.

It's not about the speeds. It's about what the users want. I know video is different but the disparity between Netlfix so-called HD and normal DVD quality is laughable. Nobody seems to care. I think it will be the same with gaming. The ultra hard core gamers will complain but chances are most of them already have strong internet anyways. Everyone else will either be fine with 480p and not know the difference. Most people can't even tell they are not getting true HD with Netflix as is and still think DVD is as good as Blu Ray.

I am being realistic and you are all talking idealistic. There is a difference. It's NOT going to be ideal conditions for 1080p but the market will gladly take a step back for convenience. Case in point, the Wii was SD at a time when the other two were pushing into HD. Even since then the average consumer still is satisfied with the fake HD Netflix gives them and they don't even bat an eye.

We have the speeds RIGHT NOW to stream GameCube level games in SD. We can stream 360/Wii U Switch level games in a reasonable facsimile of HD the average consumer won't give a ****, including the vast majority of Nintendo gamers.

I am NOT arguing that we can stream TRUE HD over 15 meg speeds, but I am absolutely certain we can stream something the mass market will accept at that speed. The quality improves, the experience improves, as your speed increases. It is the way the market is going. FOr every one of us who bemoan the death of physical there's 1500 young twerps celebrating the death of physical. We're out numbered. We lost. The masses won't care and the hard core gamers will gravitate to PC. It's not likely to be 100 percent perfect over night but it's certainly acceptable for the vast majority of gamers and consumers now. The hard cores gamers who actually care about FPS and all that are the minority they don't drive the market. Never have despite all their delusions. If they did the Switch/Wii/DS/GameBoy would have all tanked.


Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
15 megabits is dogshit. That is the bare minimum someone should have if they want to use a web browser. The low end FIOS customers tend to have 50/5 Mb a second.

https://fios.verizon.com/fios-speeds.html

**** 50 was the low end 4 years ago when I worked there. 100/100 for 59.99 is better than it used to be. Too bad it's mostly east coast and California.

Broadband was only 3 here in America, where we have low end internet because we let the corporations hold us back. It wasn't good back then when I had customers calling just to bitch how slow their internet was. Then you have to explain what different speeds are capable of. 3 and 15 aren't good for gaming, especially not streaming gameplay off a server.

There's a reason why the Resident Evil 7 was meant for Japan only. The internet is better over there.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 04:28:04 PM by ThePerm »
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline lolmonade

  • I wanna ride dolphins with you in the moonlight until the staff at Sea World kicks us out
  • *
  • Score: 29
    • View Profile

Steph, you're putting words into our mouths saying we all expect 1080p/60fps with streaming.  We're all Nintendo fans here, you put up with inconsistent framerates and lower than bleeding edge graphics all the time.  We're all pretty conditioned to the "good enough" spectrum by being a part of the community. 


I started writing out a post, but realized you're pretty dug-into your opinion of how this'll play out and us being pessimists.  Only time will tell on this question, but getting this to be a viable mass-market solution is multi-faceted and not just about the technological capability -  but I have less faith in ISPs getting the internet quality up to snuff with the market at large, and the mbps is only one facet of the entire picture of what makes game streaming work. 



Offline segagamersteph

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
no, you are being fair. I was being a pessimist myself because I am just tired. Life has been kicking my ass so I don't have any fight left in me, I am trying not to be a jerk.
I honestly don't like it I just think it is inevitable. I all the things that have been pointed out to contradict my assesment don't in my mind. It sounds exactly like to me it will suck and the market won't care because we're used to shitty internet. I am NOT trying to defend the telecoms here. I know I kind of was defending comast but that was more calling out the myth of them having a monopoly in anymarket. A monopoly of GOOD internet maybe but I am of the mindset that internet is a luxury item not a utility. So to that end you are right I am not changing my mind. Four years of college didn't change my mind it only reaffirmed my stance. I believe in capitalism point blank. I also firmly believe that as long as people's basic needs are met everything else is pure gravy and absolutely not worth fighting over. Especially something as trivial as internet. Extra especially when talking about internet in the context of video games. It's not life or death to me.

Perm, 15 meg being dogshit is literally your opinion. Not to sound like a tool but it certainly is more than adequate for gaming. Not ideal, not the best but it's passable. I am certainly happy with my 25 meg speed in terms of I can browse the internet and web pages load as expected. I can download games, upload my podcast and YouTube videos and stream Netflix daily. I can't do more than two things at a time but so what? It's not the end of the world and it's certainly a hell of a lot better than it was just 5 years ago when I couldn't get 8 meg speeds to save my life. I had 3 meg in 2006. I didn't get 6 meg until 2009. I didn't get 8 meg until 2013, and I jumped from 25 meg to 100 meg over night in Texas, literally they just opened up the bandwidth one month. Now I am on 25 meg hughs net and while it's not as fast as what is out there it is faster than what we had before.

Also, we're a hell of a lot more spread out than Japan and we have other social problems they don't have which get in the way of things. Not to mention the astronomical amounts of money we spend on our military they don't even have. It's not apples to apples at all. It's priorities. I, personally, would rather invest the limited money elsewhere and let the things that are not life threatening, like internet speeds, progress naturally instead of artificially inflating speeds to satisfy a minority of users. Of course I am assuming entirely legal usage here not getting into the shadier stuff that often accompany those demanding faster speeds. not accusing anyone just saying that's often the motive and gaming or streaming is a used as a cover.

I, know I am rambling but I don't care, not a damn person on this site takes me seriously so why should I try to convince anyone to change their mind? I just like to challenge people. Even if I agree with you secretly, you'll never know because I will always try to see the other side of an argument and push people to defend their points. It kind of goes with being a journalist, I try to see both sides of any argument.

Besides, Big Brother 20 started, that's all that matters for the next 3 months.

Offline segagamersteph

  • Score: 18
    • View Profile
I just want to follow through with this to prove I am not a damn idiot.We're complaining about telecoms not increasing internet speeds fast enough to satisfy the market and blaming it on telecoms controlling the internet market. But that is a a one sided, narrow perspective.

Before we had internet all communication was tremendously faster than it is now. why?

Because cable companies were delivering a tight NTC beam over a coaxial cable  at the speed of light, and phone companies were transmitting TCP/IP packets over telephone lines at speeds so slow your watch wouldn't be able to connect. Back then internet speeds were atrocious but television, phone, radio, and even short band coverage was fantastic.
Here is what actually happened. Cable companies had higher bandwidth to spare so they began offering access to TCP/IP packets (very inefficient method of transmitting data BTW) in order to attract those high paying internet customers away from the phone companies. Phone companies couldn't compete so they invested in installing DSL lines and T3 lines as fast as they could afford to in order to stave off the cable companies.

Then the market kept moving at a pace faster than either types of companies could keep up. Broadcast radio providers had to share bandwidth now with more TV stations and increasing cell phone providers. Less bandwidth to go around so either a, invest in more towers, or b, consolidate to cut costs. They chose to do both. Radio companies began consolidating in order to cut costs because they could run multiple stations out of a single office. Jobs were lost. Money was tightened.

The market kept moving at a pace faster than tech could keep up. Broadcast TV stations were facing increased costs and less bandwidth because cell phones. They made the switch to digital in a way to get more out of the bandwidth they had access to. But cell phone companies continued to demand more data so they had to build more towers. Governments were slow to invest in building more towers because demand was exceeding the supply and costs were going up as a result.
The market kept moving at a pace faster than the cable companies could keep up. Facing increased competition from cable companies, and wireless providers, phone companies had to adapt. They had to continue to increase their spending on adding lines, increasing their cost, but not being able to charge more because of outdated laws and having less access to bandwidth. Cable companies took advantage and cut their throats by offering VOIP. Phone companies had no choice but to consolidate, cutting costs while bleeding customers and losing profits.

The market kept moving at a pace faster than the government could keep up. Because phone companies were treated like utilities and cable companies were not that gave cable companies the upper hand. So they began consolidating in an effort to squeeze out competition and make siphon all those internet users into their customer base. They problem was they were now facing increased competition from mobile carriers and they had to invest money in infrastructure.

Here is the reality. Broadcast TV and radio signals are actually incredibly fast, even faster than fiber optic. A straight shot, at the speed of light, with multiple translators and satellites allowd for the instantaneous transmission of HUNDREDS of NTSC channels simultaneously for pennies. This allowed satellite and cable companies to increase the product they offered while slowly increasing the bandwidth for internet usage.
The market kept moving at a pace faster than satellite companies could keep up. They were now forced to also dedicate some of their bandwidth to the increasing TCP/IP packets being transmitted.

The problem comes down to the very nature of the internet. If you wanted instant access to HD ATSC TV with On Demand capabilities investing in cable made a whole lot more sense. BUt we didn't do that. Instead we, (Us the gamers and them the hackers/pirates) kept pushing for faster internet speeds so we could

1. Cut the cord and have a negative impact on broadcast companies whos's costs kept rising but profits were sinking.2. Provide unfair free alternatives (often relying on theft of Intellectual Property) for news sites which taught the public to expect free access to news while using ad blockers (under the guise of saving bandwidth or protest choose your poison) and forcing newspapers (the cornerstone of our Republic) to go bankrupt or consolidate.3. Network our video games while demanding telecoms increase speed without providing them incentives for investing and then demonizing the companies providing our services to us.
4. Newspapers, broadcasters, cable companies, network providers and wireless companies were all forced to consolidate putting us in the situation where content providers have to sell to content developers in order to stay in business.5. We have to pay for all of this by losing access to solid reporting at the local and state level, replaced by a social media platform that propgated Fake News to the point of influencing not only the election but the response by companies (many of whom have resorted to collecting and selling data in order to stay in business) while demonizing journalists (broadcast, print, radio, digital) as a scapegoat for the mess we created.6. We continue to demand cable companies decrease their bandwidth devoted to providing INSTANT access to HD content by replacing it with increasing bandwidth for more TCP/IP packets which have to travel in spider web mazes before reaching their destination. This, while increasing vulnerabilities and decreasing consumer safety. (in the name of faster internet)7. Increase dependence on data forced wireless companies to consolidate and reduce competition while purchasing other media and communications companies to streamline the process and increase revenues while cutting costs (jobs) in an effort to continue to meet demand for a product that is an absolute luxury at best but treated as a life or death utility.

I could go on, but as I work in the media business and I studied the affects the INTERNET has had on destroying the very business we are all not complaining we are losing all because WE demanded faster internet in the name of video games.

At the end of the day there are 7 billion people on the planet, less than 400 million world wide are gamers. I don't think we should invest, or force companies to invest, resources into increasing internet speeds anymore than we already have.
I was on that side until I went back to Dish and freed up my internet usage for more important things. Sure my actual internet is slower than it was BUT since I can push a button and bam there is all the HD content I want, with On Demand and DVR, I remembered how much better it was to have a system where we transmitted CONTENT at the speed of light versus transmitting TCP/IP packets (with cyber risks in the process) at speeds that will NEVER match ATSC HD content delivered at the speed of light over the 50 year old cables we installed before there even was an internet.

It comes down to convenience. We demand the convencience of Netlfix and instant chat and playing games online without realizing the costs it had to our society. Are we better off? I don't know it sounds to me like it depends on which sector you are in. If you work for the cable companies I would say no as they have consolidated to the point where chances are you've been laid off more than once and are working now for less money than you did 20 years ago.
If you work in the broadcast TV business or the print news business I would say HELL MF NO. Because you've been laid on more than once and are working now for considerably less money than you did 20 years ago. IF you can even get a job.
If you work in radio...wireless...movie theaters... telephone companies...movie studios...cable TV networks... the list goes on.
Here let me spell it out clearer. I have a friend who got his first job working for a local ABC station in 1985. Back then he was a photo (camera man following a reporter around in a big ass van) and they paid him $18 an hour. TV stations don't even hire photos anymore. That positon has been all but eliminated to save money. Now reporters are MMJ's. Instead of sending a van with a bunch of good solid radio equipment, a news reporter, a camera man, a sound engineer to set up the mic, and a video editor (all professionals with years of experience well paid for their work) you now send out a 22 year old fresh graduate in a Chevy sonic with a backpack that contains a very lousy portable radio not that different than soldiers used in WWII. She has to carry the camera and mic herself, shoot and edit the videos and do it for, starting wage, $10 an hour.

Then we (society/gamers/techies) complain the quality of our local news has diminished and bitch when Sinclair Broadcasting petitions the government to grant them permission to SAVE the newspapers in their markets as both a cost cutting measure and desperate last ditch effort to keep real journalism alive.
Yes my attitude on the internet changed, a lot, when I left college after studying what the internet did to the news media, broadcast media and print industries. Oh and guess who makes money of it all, here is a hint it's NOT the cable companies desperately trying to maximize profits to keep meeting demands.

My news reporter friend told me he used to make $18 an hour just as a staff writer at a daily newspaper. Now he's barely getting $11 an hour and he's expected to write, shoot, and deliver the newspapers.

Forgive me if I am cynical. Forgive me if I am one to think that the more money and resources we pour into making internet speeds faster at the expense of the very journalists who would be able to do a better job fact checking and vetting sources if they didn't have to worry about being technology experts, video experts and audio experts when they are being asked to work harder for considerably less pay.

The first camera job I applied for paid $20 an hour. The last camera op job I had started at $8 an hour and I had to work 3 months to get up to ten.


TL:DR version
20 years ago we could send high speed CABLE TV at the speed of light for less money and cable companies were profitable. Internet speeds increase at the expense of bandwidth to cable and companies have to consolidate. 20 years ago journalists in the print and broadcast industries were paid a damn good wage for highly profession, skilled work. Today those same journalists do the work it used to take 4 or 5 people for less money than the lowerest paid of those previous.

Cable companies started stealing customers from phone companies but weren't regulated the same and phone companies went out of business or branched into other industries to stay afloat. The market consoldiated into the mess we have today all in the name of faster internet at the demands of gamers, a statistically insignificant percentage of the worlds population.
Final final edit and I am going to bed: even with all this taking place the larger market as a whole is still oblivious to internet speeds and how gamers are still pretending like TCP/IP is somehow better than what we had before.

I swear final edit and I am done.
If we could get away from TCP/IP and transmit RAW data over those pipelines it would be at the speed of light and we would have faster internet than we can ever imagine. Again, telecoms would gladly make the, very expensive switch, if the tech companies would get over their beloved, antequated protocol and find a way to send raw data over a direct line. the protocol was created as a way to transmit data over extremely tight bandwidth with very few nodes. We have so many nodes and open pipes now if we replaced the Internet with a direct line to data centers we'd all be in heaven with gigabit speeds.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 02:01:36 AM by segagamersteph »

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
To circle back to the whole next-generation-will-be-the-last thing:

Microsoft’s next-generation Xbox reportedly arriving in 2020

Microsoft's next generation Xbox is reportedly "a family of devices" that fall under the codename Scarlet which lines up with Microsoft executive, Phil Spencer, referring to the next Xbox as plural "consoles." This quote from a different Verge article is particularly telling:
Quote
“Our cloud engineers are building a game streaming network to unlock console gaming on any device,” says Spencer, and the service will work across Xbox, PCs, or phones.

Sources: Google Is Planning A Game Platform That Could Take On Xbox And PlayStation

Now Google apparently wants a piece of the game streaming pie. Too many cooks. Too maaaaaany cooks.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 08:40:30 AM by Adrock »

Offline MagicCow64

  • Still no title
  • Score: 9
    • View Profile
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure they would love for it to work. Too bad old evil dinosaur companies like Comcast easily rolled over any opposition from the Silicon Valley princes with the net neutrality thing! I don't even know about cellphones, I pay $50 a month for a line with 2 gigs of data and use it to check my email, navigate, and send texts/tweets. And almost every month I get shrieking warnings about nearing my data limit, which, if I go over, I get charged an additional $15 a gig, which also defaults my plan to a 3 gig plan and automatically charges me that for the next month too.

But that kind of brings me to a point I hadn't even touched on: why is streaming desirable? What makes it actually significantly better for a consumer than just owning a game cartridge that maintains value, or even a local download/license? Did an average home user actually benefit from having to move to a permanent Word subscription instead of just having a discrete program they could use on their computer? Why would I want to pay $100 a year for meter-expensive streaming game access rather than buying a console, new or used, at a price point I consider appropriate, and then buying games as I wish to play them?

To go full tin foil hat, I wonder whether the relentless push toward multiplayer games as well as always online and service stuff wasn't part of a long-term strategy to move everything toward subscriptions. Tail wagging the dog.

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
The only real benefit to consumers would be that it would theoretically cut down on hardware costs. You don't need high end specs if all your end is doing is decoding the stream and sending button inputs, and you don't need to buy a new box every time you want a bump in graphics or processing power. I don't think that's at all worth the trade-offs, though.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
SGS

You're happy with your 25Mbs because that is a reasonable speed for all sorts of things. Below that and you have dogshit. That 10Mbs goes a long way. You just went from 1.87 MegaBytes a second to 3.12MegaBytes a second. You've gone from the equivalent of downloading 1/4 of a song a second to downloading 3/4 of song a second. At a lower speed you'd have trouble with youtube and you'd probably have it buffer constantly, or buffer and have a low resolution. You traveled back in time to 2009 when youtube was fun, but not nearly as good.

Being Spread out doesn't mean much to a fiber optic network. You're still dealing with the speed of light. There isn't any copper latency issues. There is still latency, but it is minimal. Every person gents their own line(sort of). As far as spending money goes I wouldn't say it is all the fault of the Federal Government or ISPs. Local governments give ISPs Monopolies and this gets in the way of progress for companies who want to build giant networks. Its the equivalent of wanting to build a railroad on land and some squatter saying you can't. ISPs get billions of dollars to build networks, and can't always do it. It's not always their fault.  The reason you had better internet in Texas was because Texas has a giant Fiber Optic Backbone. It is one of the better places to have internet in country. The best places to have internet in the country are the upper east coast, Texas, and California. Which, happens to be where people are. I'm not sure what the deal with Florida is because theoretically they should have had good internet like the others, but it was rare and when I did get a call from Florida they most they would have is 3Mbs. Verizon did sell FIOS West to Frontier. I'm not sure what has happened since that time.

As far as wireless broadcasts go, you have to keep in mind there is a limit that you can send out Wirelessly before people start getting fried. It isn't so much to ask that places in the middle of the country get as much attention for internet infrastructure as places where the population is higher. Also, it isn't much to ask that we keep up with other countries. We're not ready to just stream games from servers. Only half the country could have that to where it works currently.

Also, you're not correct with sending raw data over wired copper lines. That would only work if everyone was watching the exact same thing or only going to certain websites. The raw data streams of yesteryear had a limit of channels. That's why everyone had to switch to cable boxes. They ran into a limit. If the signals were HD you could only have about 25 channels on a coaxial cable. If you wanted to compete with how we transmit data now then you would catch houses on fire.

Though I have to say when I had 50ish NTSC channels I was much more satisfied with my service. I used to watch tv constantly, but now it's mostly reality garbage(not counting gameshows which are still awesome). I only watch FX, AMC, Food Network, and Syfy and it's only like twice a week. Many of the channels I used to like are shadows of what they once were. I mean fucking hell MTV. When I was a kid I used to get trippy videos like Sledgehammer now its the Teen Mom channel. Still, either way I have better things to do than watch TV and that's to watch Youtube. King of Random or the Hydraulic Press Channel is much more entertaining than The News. I'd rather watch a guy in 18th Century clothes fry chicken than watch how Burglars on Bicycles(BOBS) are robbing houses and I should be afraid of Bicyclists.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 05:21:02 AM by ThePerm »
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
But that kind of brings me to a point I hadn't even touched on: why is streaming desirable? What makes it actually significantly better for a consumer than just owning a game cartridge that maintains value, or even a local download/license? Did an average home user actually benefit from having to move to a permanent Word subscription instead of just having a discrete program they could use on their computer? Why would I want to pay $100 a year for meter-expensive streaming game access rather than buying a console, new or used, at a price point I consider appropriate, and then buying games as I wish to play them?
Streaming video games isn’t desirable to me literally at all. While I’ve accepted streaming for music and movies/TV, I fear a streaming future for gaming. The time investment for games is so much greater that I don’t want to find myself in a position in which I can’t finish a game because the publisher pulled it. That’s at least partially why I like physical copies. A lot is lost without the patches these days, but indefinitely owning something tangible holds a tremendous amount of value to me. I have a lot of GameCube, Wii, and Wii U games. I’m aware that optical media degrades over time. I don’t revisit those games often, but it’s comforting to know I can whenever I want.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
In theory streaming could allow for very affordable hardware or the ability to play "console" games on devices you already own like your computer or phone.  I can really see the selling point in terms of PCs where the cost difference between a low end PC for web browsing/word processing and a gaming PC is huge.  Users may also like a streaming service where they have access to every game for one monthly fee instead of having to buy each game individually, if that's the model offered.

But really I think it strongly favours the game companies and it's rather obvious why they would be pushing it.  But if they all do it it can come down effectively a threat.  "Play by our rules or you play nothing at all!"  I've got a subscription to Adobe Premiere and I HATE that business model and would never normally support it but I have a need for that software and don't really have the option to get it any other way.  It doesn't benefit me at all but the alternative of just making do without it is worse.

Nintendo could hold out which in theory could provide the alternative that would leave Sony and MS (and Google) hanging but if the streaming model is better for third parties then they'll just all leave Nintendo again and we know that Nintendo's first party stuff alone isn't enough to attract more than a niche segment of the market.



Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
I just don't think we're ready yet for streaming games. Maybe NES and SNES games. I could see those being streamed as the amount of data/processing they require is incredibly small. Even then maybe a temporary cache of game data works better. Certain part of the world you could have bigger games streamed. I'd rather see something like that 15 years down the line when it is possible for it to be seamless. Imagine having a service where there is any number of games you can play and all you have to do is select it and you're playing it immediately. That would be fantastic. The only problem you would have is the occasional net outage, or having too many games to choose from to play.


If I remember correctly a bunch of the Ouya people were ex google employees too. I imagine that provided a bunch of dry run data for a serious outing. That's if they got reabsorbed into Google. I imagine if Google is making a console then those would be prime re-hires.


NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: The Next Console Generation Will Be The Last...... Except For Nintendo
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2019, 11:48:33 PM »
I should change my username to Nostrapermis. But that was sooner than I anticipated.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 11:57:22 PM by ThePerm »
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline Enner

  • My sales numbers, let me show you them
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
Re: The Next Console Generation Will Be The Last...... Except For Nintendo
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2019, 03:46:59 AM »
Enter the Stadia!

I tried Google's Project Stream early in the year and was impressed with its functionality on cable internet in a major American city. However, I tried it on a kinda junky and old Toshiba laptop with an AMD APU and the streaming struggled under the old chips.