Topic: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)

[BlackNMild2k1]

We know that the game has been announced as coming to WiiU & 3DS.


So I figured all of you would enjoy Nintendo's latest Iwata Ask which is all about the new Smash Bros.


Iwata Ask: Smash Bros.
http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2011/06/09/iwata_asks_smash_bros/

Internal talk about creating a new Smash Bros. first started a bit after the release of Super Smash Bros. Brawl on Wii in 2008.

This was about the time Nintendo first asked Sakurai to make a 3DS game. Iwata realized that fans would want a new Smash Bros. for the 3DS, but he was unsure if it would be okay to ask Sakurai to make another Smash Bros. immediately following Brawl.

When Iwata first mentioned the development of Wii U to Sakurai, it seems that Sakurai immediately realized that they'd need to make Smash Bros. for both platforms.

Iwata had actually intended to ask him if he'd like to make the game for 3DS or for Wii U.

Sakurai had actually begun thinking about what he'd do with the next Smash Bros. while he worked on Kid Icarus.

He felt that it would be wrong to make a mere extension of Super Smash Bros. Melee (GameCube) and Super Smash Bros. Brawl. He did not feel that it would be right to just increase the volume, adding 50 characters or doubling the stages for instance.

He also felt it would be wrong to just improve the visuals. This is why he felt that selecting to make the game for the console just because it would have greater performance would be wrong.

Making a portable version had its appeal for him, as they'd be able to do a number of new things. At the same time, there would be limits, as they'd be handicapped in some areas when it comes to offering the usual enjoyment areas of Smash Bros.

Specifically, Sakurai feels that a portable system makes the game a more "individual" experience in that, compared to a console, it's easier to make players attached to the data that they've built up and collected. The fact that you're carrying the hardware with you makes for a more personal experience.

The difficulty here is that the current Smash Bros. games haven't relied on rewards, collecting money or raising your character's level. There's no element of gaining experience to make your character stronger, Iwata noted.

Adding the notion of experience would pose a dilmena, explained Sakurai, as there are some players who would get into such a game, while others would not like it. Iwata added that placing a focus on experience would also make the game lose its instant play quality.

What Sakurai hopes to do is have the 3DS version of Smash Bros. allow players to build up their character through battle and rewards, then take their custom character to the Wii U version to face off against everyone. He feels it could be nice if they can make the "personal" portable space and the stadium-like "public" console space mesh together.

Iwata summed it the basic idea nicely: players would spend time on the 3DS version, building up their character and collecting stuff, then show off their skills on the Wii U version.

Sakurai noted that as the Wii U is an HD system, this version could offer 60 frames per second visuals, high quality graphics, dynamic effects, and smooth character movements.

While it is important to have both versions of the game be enjoyable on their own, Sakurai feels that connectivity between the two versions will make the experience even more enjoyable.

Closing off the little section offering vague hints about the new Smash Bros. games, Sakurai said that his aim with the 3DS version is to offer players a slightlydifferent experience from conventional Smash Bros. games. He believes that there is merit in having skilled and unskilled players play together, so one emphasis will be on elements of players helping one-another.

[Snake-Arms]

Leveling up in Smash sounds like an awesome idea.  I just hope they make a robust match-making system for online that puts similarly skilled players together.

That is to say if the online is actually adequate this time around. >_>

Brawl would probably be my most played game had it not been for the putrid online.

[Caterkiller]

I think leveling up is cool as long as it's purely cosmetic in multiplayer. Maybe earn different costumes and such, or just to show how much experience you've gained like the way certain FPSs do now.

Oh and Ridley playable for Smash 4. He's been in all 3 games all I want is him playable, he's like Nintendo's last modern day all star except for Little Mac.
 

Nintendo Power: There was a rumor at one point about Ridley being playable. Was that ever a consideration?

Sakurai: I think that would probably be pretty impossible. [Laughs] If we had put our best efforts into it, we may have been able to do it. But he might have been a little slow. Would that be all right? [Laughs]

[Adrock]

He did not feel that it would be right to just increase the volume, adding 50 characters or doubling the stages for instance.

That still shouldn't stop him from adding 50 characters and doubling the number of stages. I mean, don't stop there, but it's certainly a good place to start. Smash Bros. is inherently a multiplayer game. Anything that makes that experience more fun and more engaging should be considered 1st.

And the 3DS version just doesn't seem like a great idea, but I'm willing to keep and open mind. As long as I don't need the game to unlock stuff in the WiiU version, I won't feel the need to get it if I'm not a fan.

[Luigi Dude]

He did not feel that it would be right to just increase the volume, adding 50 characters or doubling the stages for instance.

That still shouldn't stop him from adding 50 characters and doubling the number of stages. I mean, don't stop there, but it's certainly a good place to start. Smash Bros. is inherently a multiplayer game. Anything that makes that experience more fun and more engaging should be considered 1st.

Considering Sakurai says he's going to have the staff handle balancing the characters this time, I take that as a confirmation the game will probably have a large cast of characters added so we should still get at least 50 characters.  I mean, he says he was the sole person responsible for all the character strength settings in the previous Smash Bros, but would like others to do the job this time.  To me, this says he's planning on the game having a huge roster that will make it ridiculously hard for him to decide all the attack settings by himself and so he's going to have a group of others do it instead this time to make things much easier.

[Caterkiller]

He did not feel that it would be right to just increase the volume, adding 50 characters or doubling the stages for instance.

That still shouldn't stop him from adding 50 characters and doubling the number of stages. I mean, don't stop there, but it's certainly a good place to start. Smash Bros. is inherently a multiplayer game. Anything that makes that experience more fun and more engaging should be considered 1st.

Considering Sakurai says he's going to have the staff handle balancing the characters this time, I take that as a confirmation the game will probably have a large cast of characters added so we should still get at least 50 characters.  I mean, he says he was the sole person responsible for all the character strength settings in the previous Smash Bros, but would like others to do the job this time.  To me, this says he's planning on the game having a huge roster that will make it ridiculously hard for him to decide all the attack settings by himself and so he's going to have a group of others do it instead this time to make things much easier.

Isn't this the most wondeful piece of news ever?! I sware he has a grudge against certain characters while he buffs the hell out of his own. But I never gave it thought that there could be so many he wouldn't be balancing them himself, that is great consideration!

[UltimatePartyBear]

The difficulty here is that the current Smash Bros. games haven't relied on rewards, collecting money or raising your character's level. There's no element of gaining experience to make your character stronger, Iwata noted.

Uh, what about the stickers in Subspace Emissary?


And I don't see how Ridley is impossible.  He's basically Bowser with wings.

[Adrock]

They have 25GB to work with. The game better damn well be packed with content. I just hope it's content that people actually want as well as content that fits naturally into what the series is all about. Many of us previously wanted a fleshed-out Adventure mode after that cock-tease in Melee. However, The Subspace Emissary showed that it doesn't really work. This has nothing to do with the horrible enemy design or poorly crafted story. The gameplay doesn't lend itself well to a side-scrolling action-platformer/beat-em-up. Sakurai would be better off making a separate game with its own gameplay engine.

[JasonMaivia]

No More Clones
  Even in Brawl, they still exist.  Link & Toon Link, Fox and Falco, Gannon and Capt. Falcon, Ness & Lucas....
They may not share the exact same moves or abilities, but they're still might close to one another.  Creating fun, balanced fighting games with lots of characters isn't easy, but if you're in it to make money, you have to show that you can do as well as the Street Fighters, King of Fighters, the Virtua Fighters, the Guilty Gears, and the rest.  The King of fighters games have managed to keep a large cast of characters feeling unique and different from one another.  There's often been move set changes here and there, but you were also getting something a bit different with each new iteration of the game.


Back to Smash Bros..  Take Link and work on making him a better character.  Then, you either get rid of Toon Link or change all of his attacks completely.  The Zelda series shows Link using different attacks with weapon and items (Hammer, Biggeron Sword, Bombchu, Ice/Fire Rods, Candle, Special attacks, etc.), and interacting with different characters (Fairies, Epona, Goron, Cuckoos, ets..), so there shouldn't be a reason why you have two Links with the same moves. 


No more cloning of special attacks
  Pikachu and Sonic.  Shiek and Zelda.  Fox, Falco, AND Wolf.  Slightly different, but mostly the same.
I say, give them something different.  There are a series of games that these characters come from, why not have different moves for them all.  With a larger team of developers, this'll probably come true.


Adding Characters
Like I've said, it's not easy to have a large cast and keeping them balanced, but I doubt that the next Smash Bros roster won't grow.  Nintendo has a bunch of characters that have gone unused in playable form, like Krystal, Daisy, Little Mac, the cast from the Custom Robo games, Birdo, hundreds of Pokemon, Starfy, Tom Nook, the cast of Golden Sun, the protagonists from the Famicom Detective Club games, and Toad (Super Mario), and now, there's a new generation of character that could be added, like Miis,  Roselina, Midna, Ashley Mizuki Robbins, Captain Rainbow, and more.

  Will most gamers outside of Japan know who these characters are?  No, but it shouldn't matter much.  Most didn't know what Fire Emblem was, and was still okay with having Marth and Roy on the roster.  Hopefully, adding unfamiliar faces will get Nintendo into thinking that some of these games shouldn't be hidden from the rest of the world.  R.O.B was also unknown to the masses when it was introduced again in Smash Bros. Brawl.  I don't think it'll hurt to add more unpopular characters.  It just may do us some good in the end.

Third Party Characters
  Will we see them again?  I hope so.  It was refreshing to see them, and actually got some people interested when they saw Sonic or Snake.  Like Tatsunoko Vs Capcom, there shouldn't be a need to only add the most popular characters for the western world to enjoy playing as them, but in this case, it's probably better off sticking to, since the amount they'll add will be limited to only a few character slots.
  You won't get the entire main cast of Sonic the Hedgehog characters, but you'll get Sonic, and maybe Tails and/or Robotnik.  Mega Man would be nice, but which version should be used?  Would it be the original, X, Zero, Legends, Battle Network?
 

Street fighter cameos would be a good one as well.  We've seen Cammy out of her element of 2D fighters in Capcom's Cannon Drill, a 3d brawler/Shooter.  Personally, I'd love to Rainbow Mika Nanakawa appear once more in any video game, and having her in Smash Bros. would put a goofy smile on my face.
 
  Will Snake return, or will Konami allow another one of their characters to join?  Goemon and friends from the Mystical Ninja series would really surprise me.  It's a known series that have been around Nintendo consoles for many years.   
  There's also Castlevania which would please many gamers, but if they really want to go weird on us, they'd add a character from the Tokimeki Memorial series, with music and stages (school, park, beach, shopping center, etc.).  I know, it's really japanese, but there's also a shortage of female characters.  The series have plenty of girls/women to choose from.


                                                                                           (continued in next post...)

[JasonMaivia]

In-Game Content
  As was said, the Wii U will have 25GB to use for games (I don't know about 3DS).  There's plenty of room to do much of whatever is on a hardcore gamer's mind (dreams).  So what can they do to fill up that space?  First off, there's no need to fill it up to the brim, but there should still be more than just a roster, level, sound and music upgrade.


 -Bigger and Better Level Editor. 
There shouldn't be a reason not to do this.  It may also reinvigorate the trading scene between Nintendo gamers.


 -Better online service
Online sucked in SSBB.  Period.
Maybe the co-op mission modes could be online as well, which would get players wanting to team up more than ever to complete them for unlockables, currency, etc..


 -Better Story mode (the main story of Smash Bros.)
Why not?  Better is better.  It's always fun to see these characters of different worlds interact with one another (start new friendships and rivalries), add a new last boss instead of just the Hands, keep the story a co-op multiplayer game for the sake of having the option there for those who want it.  Branching paths/alternate story routes is always a plus and adds replay value.


-Better Arcade Mode
  Each character to have their own story that'll also dish out more info about them as you 'play through to the end.  It's a good way for players to understand the relationship each of these characters have with one another...especially for the characters that haven't had a game in a looooooong time, or isn't well known outside of Japan.
  High scores and completion times to be shown and shared on online leaderboards.


-Alternate Costumes/More Colors
 Samus could have her Fusion, Light, and Dark suits (they aren't just different color schemes)
 Mario could have Dr. Mario or his old, blocky N64 look
 Little Mac would have his NES, SNES, and Wii look
 Daisy could have her princess gown or sports gear.
 The list goes on


-More info on the characters and games
 While the trophies helped a little bit, there could be more to get gamers the info about what they're looking at or playing as on-screen.  Videos to show off the games in which the items, characters, or stages have come from would be awesome.  Watching the origins and evolution of Daisy, Luigi, Samus, and even third party characters, like Sonic, Mega Man, and Goemon would be pretty neat.  It could also show the evolution of the Smash Bros games, which would be really entertaining for some, and educational for others.


  I've always loved how Working Designs added bonus videos in their games, showing how the games they've worked on, like Lunar Silver Star Story Complete and Lunar 2: Eternal Blue.  I had never seen something like it before, and it still is rare to see such a thing to be included in today's games.  Having such a thing for Super Smash Bros would be really cool, and I'm sure more gamers will love to see how things go behind the scenes.  They may even appreciate their hard work a lot more.




That is all.  Please tell me what you think

[Caterkiller]

I'm not sure what you mean about cloning of special attacks between Sonic and Pikachu or Zelda and Shiek. The Star Fox guys I get it, but mainly just wolf. Still though Fox and Falco are so much more different than before, it's like Mario and Luigi to me. The actual animations aside from that illusion and Fox Fire are totally different. If those specials were changed a bit especially for wolf I think most of us would be much happier.

Story mode, nah just leave it out. We got a huge one last time and it was lame. Put all that effort into the multplayer and event modes. 

If the trend continues as far as characters go the roster will be upped by another 13. I'd be happy with 10 new and unique movesets. Most deserving and without a doubt we will have Dixie, Little Mac, Ridley and probably Samurai Goroh. After that is anyones guess.

It is sounding like we will get a better online mode and possibly costumes this time around, at least on the 3DS. So i'm not worried about that.

Just that and Sakurai not balancing everyone himself is all I need.

[JasonMaivia]

I'm not sure what you mean about cloning of special attacks between Sonic and Pikachu or Zelda and Shiek.

I was talking about their final smashes.  Pikachu and Sonic flies around the screen at free will, and Zelda and Shiek both shoot an arrow.  The main differences are that Sonic flies faster than Pikachu, and Shiek's arrow shot bends a bit instead of just a straight shot from Zelda.

I still think that Zelda and Shiek should have their own final smash attack.  They did it right with Samus/Zero Suit Samus.  Both forms have unique attacks, which is cool.

Plus, I think the story mode made the characters so much more interesting than in previous Smash Bros. games.  I was hoping that they'd go several leaps forward and give more to those who appreciated it.

[Caterkiller]

Oh I see, what was one of the coolest things added to Star Fox 64 became one of the worst things about Brawl. Three landmaster tanks really?!

I'm glad Brawl was delayed as long as it was, who knows what other shortcuts could have been made.

It's just at the end of the day story mode was just a bad kirby game. As stated above the mechanics of smash bros just don't fit well in a full on side scrolling adventure. There was allot of potential, I thought the story was cool, but how it actually felt to be played was crap.

[Luigi Dude]

No More Clones
They may not share the exact same moves or abilities, but they're still might close to one another.  Creating fun, balanced fighting games with lots of characters isn't easy, but if you're in it to make money, you have to show that you can do as well as the Street Fighters, King of Fighters, the Virtua Fighters, the Guilty Gears, and the rest.  The King of fighters games have managed to keep a large cast of characters feeling unique and different from one another.  There's often been move set changes here and there, but you were also getting something a bit different with each new iteration of the game.

Brawl was the third game in the Smash Bros series and has a roster of 39 characters and out of those 39, 34 of them are unique.  The third King of Fighters was KOF 96 which had a roster of 29 characters total.  Not to mention King of Fighters got to cheat by coping and pasting some of it's characters from other SNK fighting games, unlike Smash Bros which actually creates all it's new characters from scratch because Nintendo doesn't have other fighting series they can borrow from to help fill out the roster more.

This is what always annoys me when people start complaining about clones and b!tching that there aren't enough unique characters in Brawl.  No other high profile fighting series has had a roster with 34 unique characters in only it's THIRD INSTALLMENT.  Some fighting games have had twice as many sequels and still have yet to have a game that contains anywhere close to that many unique characters.

[JasonMaivia]

Who's b!tching?
Unlike most fighting games, Smash Bros. only gets 1 game made per generation.  So, why can't a 12-year-old fighting game franchise do as well as the others?
People complained how the Conduit couldn't perform or entertain as well as most first person shooters, and how dated it feels...but they're only on their 2nd game in the 2nd year of the franchise's life.

[Adrock]

We've heard this argument from you many times so I'll offer 3 counterpoints.

1. It's less about the reused moveset than the characters that are cloned. Ganondorf is Nintendo's second most recognizable villain and by far the worst offender. Why the hell does he not have his own moveset? HE'S MOTHERFUCKING GANONDORF. Moreover, why does he have Captain Falcon's moveset? Makes no sense. So Melee was rushed, fine. Pass granted. With Brawl, Sakurai was given NO set deadline. If he wanted to "clone" Captain Falcon, make it Blood Falcon, Samurai Goroh or someone else from F-Zero and NOT the main villain of one of Nintendo's most popular franchises. By the time Brawl was released, Sakurai had 3 whole Zelda games to draw influences from. No excuses. He even had Ganondorf pull out a different sword in Brawl just to taunt everyone... FAIL!

2. "Clones" seemed like characters included in Melee due to time restraints in order to boost the roster. Fair enough. However, we all know Sakurai was given free reign with Brawl. It seems like fewer original characters were included so Sakurai could focus on modes that ultimately wasted everyone's time, like the Subspace Emissary. Unlike Melee, one is left to wonder if "clones" were in Brawl just so an adventure mode that plays like a bootleg Kirby game could be included. So instead of getting Daisy, Dixie Kong, and Dark Samus, we got to fight fucking Duon and Tabuu, who have nothing to do with Nintendo's rich history of memorable characters.

3. You keep comparing Smash Bros. to other fighting games. It neither plays nor resembles the most well-known series such as Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, Dead of Alive that receive sequels far more often. I think the expectations are higher because there are fewer installments. There were roughly 6 years between Melee and Brawl. People expect greater yields for having to wait so long for a sequel even though the game isn't being developed during the entirety of the series absence. And since Nintendo has such a wide array of great characters and franchises to choose from, people will always want more characters and everyone has a dark horse favorite.

[Luigi Dude]

We've heard this argument from you many times so I'll offer 3 counterpoints.

1. It's less about the reused moveset than the characters that are cloned. Ganondorf is Nintendo's second most recognizable villain and by far the worst offender. Why the hell does he not have his own moveset? HE'S MOTHERFUCKING GANONDORF. Moreover, why does he have Captain Falcon's moveset? Makes no sense. So Melee was rushed, fine. Pass granted. With Brawl, Sakurai was given NO set deadline. If he wanted to "clone" Captain Falcon, make it Blood Falcon, Samurai Goroh or someone else from F-Zero and NOT the main villain of one of Nintendo's most popular franchises. By the time Brawl was release, Sakurai had 3 whole Zelda games to draw influences from. No excuses. He even had Ganondorf pull out a different sword in Brawl just to taught everyone... FAIL!

Yeah Ganondorf still being based of of Captain Falcon is Sakurai trolling everyone, but it's only one character.  The other clones still make sense considering who they're based off of.  Of course Lucas and Wolf shouldn't even be considered clones since they only share a few moves while the majority of their attacks are completely different.  Hell, the only thing that even makes Wolf considered a clone is his Final Smash, since even his B moves which might look similar to Fox and Falco's, manage to have some key changes that make playing as him quite different.

2. "Clones" seemed like characters included in Melee due to time restraints in order to boost the roster. Fair enough. However, we all know Sakurai was given free reign with Brawl. It seems like fewer original characters were included so Sakurai could focus on modes that ultimately wasted everyone's time, like the Subspace Emissary. Unlike Melee, one is left to wonder if "clones" were in Brawl just so an adventure mode that plays like a bootleg Kirby game could be included. So instead of getting Daisy, Dixie Kong, and Dark Samus, we got to fight fucking Duon and Tabuu, who have nothing to do with Nintendo's rich history of memorable characters.

Melee added 14 new characters, with 8 of them being unique and 6 clones.  Brawl added 17 new characters with 15 of them unique and the 2 clones being mostly unique anyway which is far greater then any of Melee's clones.  What about this fact haven't you seem to have learned over the last 3 years.  Sakurai had more time to work on Brawl which is why we got twice as many unique characters added then Melee did. 

Plus once again the Subspace Emmissary didn't affect the output of the characters since the people working on it were completely different then those who worked on the characters.  The reason Brawl had a team as big as it did was so that they'd be able to work on all the different parts of the game without one area effecting the other.  Unlike the previous two games when Hal made them and only had a limited amount of staff, for Brawl, Nintendo got Game Arts to be the core team that made all the characters and stages, and then when Sakurai wanted to make the Subspace Emissary, they hired a bunch of freelance designers as well as sent a bunch of Monolith Soft employees to make it.

If the Subspace Emissary didn't exist, that all the people that were brought in to make it, never would have been brought in, meaning everything else would have been the same.  But that same still would have been twice as many unique characters then Melee, which is a huge improvement for a sequel to do last time I checked.

3. You keep comparing Smash Bros. to other fighting games. It neither plays nor resembles the most well-known series such as Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, Dead of Alive that receive sequels far more often. I think the expectations are higher because there are fewer installments. There were roughly 6 years between Melee and Brawl. People expect greater yields for having to wait so long for a sequel even though the game isn't being developed during the entirety of the series absence. And since Nintendo has such a wide array of great characters and franchises to choose from, people will always want more characters and everyone has a dark horse favorite.

Yeah and Brawl went well above and beyond what the average fighting series sequel provides.  Brawl added 17 new characters that weren't in Melee, with 15 of these new characters completely unique.  All the series you mentioned above are lucky if they even add 5 new characters per sequel with at most they might add close to 10, but never anywhere close to 17 with 15 unique ones.

I know why people want more characters, but they have to be realistic.  Even though Smash Bros isn't a traditional fighting game, it's still just as hard to make characters in Smash Bros as the other series since it takes a lot of time to create brand new and unique characters from scratch, and then think up about 20 different attacks for them to do and then animated all those attacks in a way that is double and will make the characters somewhat playable.  Unless they do what the DBZ fighters do and just fill the roster with clone after clone in order to get over 100 characters.  Of course that kind of brings us back to the original point of this argument doesn't it.

[Adrock]

You'll have to excuse me as I'm responding on my phone so if I miss a point or 2, keep in mind that I can't read your post while I type/text this response.

1. Ganondorf is one character but he's a pretty important character across ALL Nintendo games. It gives the impression that corners were cut. How did Sakurai get this wrong? Keeping Ganondorf pretty much in tact from Melee was a conscious decision but no one can figure out why. People don't want clones so this **** doesn't happen again.

2. Look, dude, I'm just responding so don't get snippy with me. You can post those numbers all you want but this isn't about the number of characters being unacceptably low. In fact, I don't recall saying that the number of characters in Brawl wasn't substantial. Rather, my point is about why people don't like "clone" characters.

I haven't been able to verify that Subspace Emissary was handled by a separate part of the team, but that's besides the point. It doesn't change the fact that the adventure mode was a colossal waste of development resources. Maybe those programmers and artists wouldn't have been brought in otherwise, maybe they would have. In hindsight, people would have rather seen that time, energy, and money put towards something they actually care about: more characters. For Smash 4, people are weary of the same thing except now they know the mode sucks out loud  and if Sakurai/Nintendo are going to bring in people to work on the game, might as well put them to work on more characters/stages.

3. And no one said Brawl didn't bring more to the table than other series. YOU brought that up. No one is disagreeing with you on that end. However, the difference between Smash Bros. and just about every other non-crossover fighting game franchise is that all of the characters already exist. People complain about clones mostly because they all have favorites, not necessarily because X number of characters isn't enough. So you can keep dropping numbers as if people can't count, but it's not really the same thing.

[Ceric]

Ganondorf has the move set he has because that is the moves he has in the Smash Bros Continuity.  More than Likely I would ditch Ganondorf and bring in Ganon or the WW version to give him a new moveset but, what would you give him anyway?  I want Super Princess Peach in the next game and for Princess Peach's move set to be tweaked a little more sport oriented and given to Daisy.  Do I realistically think that will happen.  No, but it would be better for the game.  Toon link has how many games under his  belt,  I'm thinking 4 right off the top of my head (Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, and 4 Swords)  by and far I think that makes him the most versed version of Link.  OoT Link has to be in because he is the most famous.  Toon Link needs to be in because he really is the most Prolific.  Though the problem becomes they both have the same basic movesets because they are both essentially the same character.  You should realistically only have different specials.

I guess what I'm getting at is that yes straight clones are bad but, characters will naturally fall into different Archetypes because that is who they are.  Toad and Mario both use jumping attacks while Luigi has his Mansion excursions to vary things but, you can argue that is similar to Kirby.  Its going to happen naturally its more important to make every character feel like they should even if that makes them similar to someone else.

[UltimatePartyBear]

I think the Links' B moves should be a little more differentiated, but it's probably a little too late for that now since the games that would inspire them are a bit dated and from the time before Nintendo's rise in popularity.  Or maybe not!  It's speculation time, anyway.  Wind Waker had some unique items that could have worked well, like the Deku Leaf, for example.  There's also the different kinds of seeds that could be shot from a slingshot in the Oracle games.  Toon Link could fire one of those at random instead of an arrow, with effects such as a mini-tornado, fire, etc.  There are a lot of other items from the history of the Zelda series to draw from.  I think adult Link should keep the classic bombs and arrows, though he should be able to bowl bombs along the ground like in Skyward Sword.  Adult Link should have the spin attack still, and Toon Link should get something else for his Up+B recovery move, and get the hurricane spin for a Final Smash.

Speaking of which, Final Smashes need to be fixed.  Some of them are nearly useless, and some are nearly guaranteed victories.  Too many of them break the normal flow of gameplay completely.  I think they should be very powerful moves that fit into the regular game, and not cinematic nonsense.  None of them should be guaranteed KOs.  If that can't be done, then they should be dropped entirely.

It also wouldn't hurt my feelings to only have one Link in the roster.  They dropped Dr. Mario and Pichu instead of trying to turn them into not-quite clones, after all.  There wasn't any pressing need to save Young Link.  They can also drop the Ice Climbers, but I only say that because I hate them. 

I found it incredibly odd that Brawl gave Mario FLUDD but didn't give Luigi the PolterGust to match.  Now that Super Mario Sunshine is even more forgotten and the Galaxy games have made the spin attack even more a part of Mario, FLUDD will likely be dropped again, and yet Luigi's Mansion 2 is going to make the inclusion of the PolterGust even more fitting.  I find it a little sad that there was a chance for some nice symmetry, but it was missed.

[Morari]

No other high profile fighting series has had a roster with 34 unique characters in only it's THIRD INSTALLMENT.

Mortal Kombat Trilogy. Discounting the palette-swapped ninjas (who all had completely unique specials), the game came pretty close.

Let's not forget about Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (3 has less, but none are clones) either...

[Arbok]

As someone who has played Ganondorf as their primary character for two games now, I would be quite sad if they got rid of that character type... because its dramatically different from Captain Falcon.

Still, I think the better solution would be to give it to Black Shadow or someone from that franchise.

Let's not forget about Marvel vs. Capcom 2 (3 has less, but none are clones) either... :

Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is, according to that game's own intro movie, the fourth installment in that series:

1. X-Men vs. Street Fighter
2. Marvel vs. Street Fighter
3. Marvel vs. Capcom
4. Marvel vs. Capcom 2

[shinyray01]

If anything, I don't want more third party characters in the next smash bros. game. It's best to keep it as an Nintendo all-star brawler which was established in melee (or in the first game, haven't played that one). I think it's best to give priority to more Nintendo characters than third party characters. I mean they're still some Nintendo characters that hasn't represent their franchise in playable format. Saki, Isaac and Ray MK III are good examples of this. The addition of third party character takes away space for character who have a higher right to be in the game

Also would like to see more variety in the next Smash bros. I would rather have one more Fire Emblem or Metroid character as to having 3 new character from the Mario or Zelda series.  I would rather see Elza from the Last Story playable rather than Minda. It's more logical to include a character from a new IP rather than a character who so far has appeared in one Legend of Zelda Title. 

now about clones, If Street fighter fans have no problem with Ryu and Ken, then lets not at least complain about Mario and Luigi.

and please Sakurai give every character their own unique target stage, that was my only disappointment in brawl.

[Adrock]

I agree with the no more 3rd party characters thing ONLY if Nintendo creates a spinoff crossover game full of 3rd party characters. That way Smash Bros. stays true to itself and we get an entirely new game.

Anyway, the main thing I want from the new Smash Bros. is enhanced gameplay that makes it feel new again as I felt Brawl was just Melee+. I want it to feel like Smash Bros. and it's own thing at the same time, like the difference between Melee and the original.

Also, I would prefer a Smash Bar over the Smash Ball (which can still be toggled off) though I admit this won't happen, but mostly the entire idea of the Final Smash needs to be revamped. Some of them are way overpowered and others are pointless (looking at you, Peach). It needs to be scrapped and rebuilt from scratch if it's there at all. Well, that, or every character should just have the Landmaster tank...

[Ceric]

Honestly,
I like the game to ship with no Third party characters what-so-ever but, I wouldn't mind if you could bring them in from games you own from their respective companies.  You have MGS then Snake is brought in and playable.  Have Sonic then Sonic.  These wouldn't be unlocks.  They be self contained character files loaded from memory on load.  That would be cool.