Topic: Where should Nintendo go from here?

[NWR_insanolord]

After a strong showing at E3 this year, and the critically-acclaimed, as well as at least initially quick-selling release of Super Smash Bros., things might be looking up for the Wii U for the first time in a while. Beyond the few releases we know of for next year, what are your hopes and predictions for what Nintendo will do next with their console?

[broodwars]

Nintendo needs to strike while Smash is fresh in our minds and announce more Wii U software, and they need to announce it soon. We have some notable releases coming like Captain Toad; Kirby; & X, but those are pretty much the Wii U's only near-future releases. Zelda's destined to be a 2016 title, and who knows when Star Fox is going to hit so that might as well be 2016 as well. The Wii U's biggest problem right now is that there's no reason to believe the system has a future, especially with the 3rd parties gone. Nintendo needed to address that issue 2 years ago, and so far they still haven't.

[Evan_B]

I think, if 2015 goes as planned, we'll have a consistent momentum going. Nintendo needs to realize that once they stop the stream of releases, they are effectively killing momentum as well. So it's in their best interests to consider localizations like Rodea the Sky Soldier and Fatal Frame, even if those titles aren't huge sellers. The Wii U needs all the help it can get.

I, like Broodwars, see Zelda being bumped to 2016, though I remain hopeful. If that's the case, we have:
2015-
Yoshi
Kirby
Mario Maker
Splatoon
Mario Party 10
Xenoblade, which will likely be the "game of the year" vehicle Nintendo tries to push
Devil's Third

With 2016 looking something like:
Zelda
Star Fox
Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem
(One unnanounced 2016 game, likely Animal Crossing if they want to continue momentum)
(Another, though I'm stretching for competency on Nintendo's part)

And that's that. I foresee a few eShop games from Nintendo here and there, some meager VC releases. I expect the Wii U to finish it's lifespan with a graphical powerhouse that shows how beautiful the system can be: yes, I'm talking about Metroid. And that will be that, which I'm personally a-okay with.

[Soren]

Splatoon is getting tons of love on the eShop right now which leads me to believe that's going to be the game Nintendo pushes big time in 2015. For all its beauty, Xenoblade is still a niche product and I don't see Nintendo putting its big guns behind it.

From here until E3 Nintendo needs to announce the following:
- At least one new major franchise game. (Animal Crossing)
- At least one niche franchise game. (Metroid)
- An HD remake. (Sunshine, Prime 1, Luigi's Mansion, any of those)
- Pad the current 2015 lineup. Fatal Frame 5 won't get the sales you expect, but it will probably be the only Wii U game released in the span of a month, so it will go unchallenged by other releases.
- And an extra:if you're feeling bold, try and resurrect another third party franchise or game from development hell.
 

[Evan_B]

Oh, I totally see Splatoon being a major deal- new IP push and all that. But Xenoblade will be the open-world fix for 2015, not Zelda.

I am hoping Nintendo has some surprises for us for the year's end, unfortunately I see Kirby, Yoshi, MAYBE Devil's Third, and Mario Maker rounding out the first half of 2015, with Splatoon being their summer fun release and Xenoblade occupying an October/November slot, which doesn't inspire much confidence.

[MagicCow64]

This is tricky, because of the should in the question. I'd personally be pleased if they keep going diehard on the WiiU releases, because they've been knocking it out of the park all this gen, seeming to have hit a sweet spot on HD art design and super-polished gameplay. Outside of the odd release like Xenoblade X, I'm not even sure what Nintendo proper needs a PS4.5 powered console for, given that I also don't think 3rd party support is ever coming back.

So then, what is in Nintendo's best corporate interests? Bury the WiiU early and try to get an awkwardly Dreamcast-ish staggered new console out in 2016? If so, then Zelda U will be the Skyward Sword of the console, one last major release on a precipitously flagging platform (or it's cross-gen). And then there's the perennially looming question of a hybrid solution.

I think another way of looking at this from a console perspective is if you think Nintendo should abandon the custom architecture they've been building since the Gamecube and adopt the standard PC architecture that the PS4 and Xbone have resigned themselves to (which in the process is increasingly fueling the question of why dedicated consoles should exist at all).

[Soren]

I could see Devil's Third taking Bayo's late October slot next year. Mario Vs Donkey Kong gets released on the first day of E3 (the only non-random release date for an eShop game). Either Splatoon or Yoshi is the post E3 release, with the other coming later. Mario Maker in September and Xenoblade and my proposed Animal Crossing release being the main Holiday lineup (plus another game).

That still means that there's a month in the summer with no Wii U retail releases. Boom, put Fatal Frame 5 on there.

EDIT: Splatoon is getting more play now than Kirby, a game that has a confirmed release date. Nintendo is going to go hard with that game's marketing.

Also, Project CARS looks to be the only confirmed third party retail game for 2015 so far.

[broodwars]

From where I stand with the Wii U, its biggest problem as a platform (after 3rd party support, obviously) is that its software lineup doesn't offer up much in the way of variety. The first 2 years of the Wii U have been heavily dominated by platformers, especially 2D platformers. And what are Nintendo's (likely) first 3 Wii U games of next year? Yoshi's Wooly World, Kirby & the Rainbow Curse, and Mario Maker. 2D platformer, 2D platformer, and a tool for making 2D platformers.  Look, I love platformers (especially of the 3D variety), but we need more action/adventure games & shooters on the Wii U. Ordinarily, that would be a hole that an Assassin's Creed or a Shadow of Mordor would fill, but Nintendo doesn't have those anymore so they need to make their own. Zelda would fill that hole, but that game's a long ways away. Star Fox would also fill that hole, but that game's probably even further away.  Splatoon's a nice addition to the Wii U's shooter library, but it's primarily a MP-centric arena shooter. It's appeal is limited.

Which leads me to the change in business practices I've been begging Nintendo to do for pretty much 2 generations now: they need to expand and develop new Western-based studios, and those studios need to be devoted to making Western-centric games. I'm not saying Nintendo needs to be making so-called "dude-bro shooters" or games with tons of blood, but they need something other than 2D platformers and niche JRPGs to fill out their lineup.  And they need them now more than ever as Japan inches ever closer to completely abandoning console games.  This is a tactic that served Sony well last generation and was a major cause of the PS3's gradual shift in popularity. It also put Sony in an excellent position to take over this generation, so it would serve Nintendo well to emulate that strategy.

[Evan_B]

I REALLY hope that your release schedule doesn't turn out to be true, Soren, because that's a pretty abysmal one.

Also, Broodwars, when have MP-centric FPSs ever had limited appeal? It's practically what Sony build their release schedule on. I think the Wii U is really only lacking in RPGs- everything else they have seems well-balanced, though with a huge platformer library.

[Luigi Dude]

From where I stand with the Wii U, its biggest problem as a platform (after 3rd party support, obviously) is that its software lineup doesn't offer up much in the way of variety. The first 2 years of the Wii U have been heavily dominated by platformers, especially 2D platformers.

There's been two 2D Platformers from Nintendo in the last 2 year, NSMB U and Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze.  In that same timespan they've released three action games, The Wonderful 101, Hyrule Warriors and Bayonetta 2.  And if you try to count DLC like NSL U then you have to count Bayonetta 1 which still makes it more action games then 2D platformers.

I love how you complain about the lack of genre's on the system, and then have no idea what's actually on the thing.

[broodwars]

I love how you complain about the lack of genre's on the system, and then have no idea what's actually on the thing.

If you actually knew how to read (which is hilarious, really, considering you quoted me), you'd have noticed that I didn't single-out Nintendo when it comes to the Wii U's software lineup. Here's the quote again:

From where I stand with the Wii U, its biggest problem as a platform (after 3rd party support, obviously) is that its software lineup doesn't offer up much in the way of variety. The first 2 years of the Wii U have been heavily dominated by platformers, especially 2D platformers.

That's the software lineup in general, not just Nintendo's own games. So that includes platformers (both 2D & 3D) like Rayman Legends, Bit Trip Runner 2, Cloudberry Kingdom, DuckTales: Remastered, Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams, Guacamelee (which is heavily platforming-centric along with being a Metroid-style game), Kung Fu Rabbit, Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures, Sonic Boom, Scram Kitty & his Buddy on Rails, Shovel Knight, Super Mario 3D World, Teslagrad, both Toki Tori games, and Trine 2.

And that's with me leaving out edge-case games that feature platforming, but are primarily built around combat. Plus all the miscellaneous **** in the eShop no one cares about.

Nintendo isn't the only one pumping out platformers, but they take up a rather large percentage of the Wii U's overall library.  Just sayin', a little variety would be nice, especially if Nintendo themselves are making it happen.  But by all means, please continue deliberately misconstruing my words.

As for Wonderful 101, Hyrule Warriors, and Bayonetta 2, well...Bayonetta 2 at least is a step in the right direction (the other 2 can **** off), but none of those games were made by Nintendo. I'd like to see Nintendo themselves making more non-platformers games.

[NWR_insanolord]

I don't see why games commissioned and funded by Nintendo shouldn't count as Nintendo titles. By that logic F-Zero GX wasn't a Nintendo game.

[broodwars]

I don't see why games commissioned and funded by Nintendo shouldn't count as Nintendo titles. By that logic F-Zero GX wasn't a Nintendo game.

No, it wasn't. It was a Sega game, sadly one that Nintendo knows they could never top so they just mothballed the entire franchise.  :

[Evan_B]

But you're blaming Nintendo for the rest of the industry's actions. That being said, Nintendo makes plenty of games that span across genres. They also own IPs in other genres, which is generally what a publisher does if they don't know how to develop for a genre.

[broodwars]

But you're blaming Nintendo for the rest of the industry's actions. That being said, Nintendo makes plenty of games that span across genres. They also own IPs in other genres, which is generally what a publisher does if they don't know how to develop for a genre.

I'm not "blaming" Nintendo for the games other developers make. I'm saying that this is the situation the Wii U's in right now, and going forward I'd like to see that change. Yoshi's Wooly World; Kirby; & Mario Maker could all be excellent games. However, I feel that we're kind of well-served on platformers right now, as the Wii U seems to exist just to cater to Guillaume.  I don't feel like the platform really needs any more right now compared to other genres, especially from franchises that have all seen very recent entries in the last few years. I've like to see other types of games out from Nintendo in the future, especially from Western developers and especially new IP that Nintendo can grow and develop over what few months/year or so the Wii U has left before the next console arrives.

The Wii U as a console is pretty much in its last year of relevance. Nintendo needs to plan for the future, and that means planting the seeds of a new software strategy with new franchises that can excite people both in the final year of the Wii U as well as the first year of the next console (if, indeed, there is one). I'm not saying you can't enjoy the Wii U software that's out there, but the question posed by the topic was where Nintendo should go from here. That's beyond the Wii U, whose story has already been written and set in stone.

[Evan_B]

Fair enough. I agree with you there. Diversity will only help the library moving forward. I know I'm not the only one that has flung their arms in the air at the announcement of ANOTHER DKC title or ANOTHER yarn themed game, and I am a bit forgiving when it comes to Tainbow Cutse only because I missed out on the original, but the point still stands. Nintendo needs to maybe sell the Wii U like it tried (and kinda failed, but only kinda) to sell the DS- sequels to older games that deserve the treatment, like Luigi's Mansion, Resident Evil, Paper Mario, and more. There's a lack of interesting ideas in the current lineup and more of a retread of popular things on Wii U.

[Triforce Hermit]

Xenoblade might sell very well with Shulk in Smash because a lot of people are now looking for Xenoblade Chronicles just for that reason. Name alone can go pretty far. Also if there are more copies and they all aren't in the constant $50+ range , it has a very good chance of selling a lot more then the first. Just depends on how they market it as well.

I agree with the notion of less 2D platformers. The genre is being done to death by everyone, especially indie developers.

Resident Evil isn't coming on the Wii U. Revelations 2 showed that. If there is a RE Wii U title announced, I'll be surprised.

The only third party support they might get in the near future is Ubisoft with their "glowing games that are and just waiting for a higher playerbase." And Ubisoft is about to lose a customer base because of bullshit.

[Evan_B]

Of course, I was speaking metaphorically. In some ways, the 3DS library is more similar to the GCN than the Wii U is- which is sad, because the Wii U library is more like the Wii's which is not a positive.

[Adrock]

Beyond the few releases we know of for next year, what are your hopes and predictions for what Nintendo will do next with their console?

My hope is that Nintendo can continue to release quality software right up until at least a few months before a successor hits then transition smoothly to regular releases on said successor, none of that software drought bullshit at the tail of Wii's lifespan which transitioned to another drought on Wii U. Nintendo cannot afford to let that happen again. Wii U is done, but that doesn't mean it has to go out with a whisper. As Nintendo preps its next console, installing confidence that it can at the very least manage a steady release schedule will go a long way in turning things around which unfortunately, is a long ways from actually happening. Nintendo has to start somewhere and this is as good a place as any.

As for predictions, I see Nintendo using DLC and games like Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, that use existing assets, to ride out Wii U's final years. Besides the games already announced, Nintendo won't reveal too many new titles. And I'm still not convinced Open World Zelda is still a Wii U title. It's in the company's best interests to launch its next console with a title as big as Zelda that also happens to change the direction of the series. Nintendo hasn't had that kind of game since Super Mario 64. But in the interest of keeping this thread on topic, I'd rather not get too far into what Nintendo should do with its next console.

However, if Nintendo delays Open World Zelda, it's left with a major hole in Wii U's lineup. There are no other announced games that can carry a holiday season including Star Fox. Going back to what I mentioned earlier about Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, what Nintendo should do is use Wind Waker HD's engine and assets and make a new Zelda game that way. We haven't had a traditional 3D Zelda game since Twilight Princess so dipping back in the well, especially right before unleashing Open World Zelda the next year, shouldn't upset too many people. And **** it. Even if they are upset, they're going to buy it anyway.

[Evan_B]

If they release a home console without a proper Zelda entry on it I will lose my fucking mind, pardon my french.

That sounds like the worst possible thing they could do.

[Adrock]

If they release a home console without a proper Zelda entry on it I will lose my fucking mind, pardon my french.

That sounds like the worst possible thing they could do.

Did anyone suggest that?

[Evan_B]

Yeah, you did. When you said you weren't sure Open World Zelda was meant for Wii U.

[Ceric]

I'm going to suggest something crazy.

I think, if 2015 goes as planned, we'll have a consistent momentum going. Nintendo needs to realize that once they stop the stream of releases, they are effectively killing momentum as well. So it's in their best interests to consider localizations like Rodea the Sky Soldier and Fatal Frame, even if those titles aren't huge sellers. The Wii U needs all the help it can get.

I, like Broodwars, see Zelda being bumped to 2016, though I remain hopeful. If that's the case, we have:
2015-
Yoshi
Kirby
Mario Maker
Splatoon
Mario Party 10
Xenoblade, which will likely be the "game of the year" vehicle Nintendo tries to push
Devil's Third

With 2016 looking something like:
Zelda
Star Fox
Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem
(One unnanounced 2016 game, likely Animal Crossing if they want to continue momentum)
(Another, though I'm stretching for competency on Nintendo's part)

And that's that. I foresee a few eShop games from Nintendo here and there, some meager VC releases. I expect the Wii U to finish it's lifespan with a graphical powerhouse that shows how beautiful the system can be: yes, I'm talking about Metroid. And that will be that, which I'm personally a-okay with.

See that list of games Evan_B gave?  Nintendo should sell a Digital Season Pass to them.  Which would get you them plus a few connected VC games for about $5 less than if you would have bought without the commitment charged to you at time of Preload.

[Adrock]

Yeah, you did. When you said you weren't sure Open World Zelda was meant for Wii U.

Well, besides the fact that Wind Waker HD came out over a year ago (unless you meant new entry), I also suggested that Nintendo use Wind Waker HD's engine and assets to build a new Zelda game if you, you know, bothered to read the very next paragraph. Delaying Zelda only makes sense if Nintendo has something to replace it with because Devil's Third and Xenoblade Chronicles X can't carry a holiday season like Zelda can.

[Ian Sane]

When I think about what Nintendo has to correct, they have to have started once that dismal sales forecast came in.  If they're still stuck with their thumbs up their butts wondering why the Wii U isn't selling or, even worse, naively thinking that Mario Kart and SSB have turned things around after a slow start, they're screwed.  A common point we keep making is of having a more frequent release schedule and having more teams to create more titles because HD games take longer to make.  If they haven't started doing that already then the Wii U successor is toast.  The third parties are going to be cautious and Nintendo, even if they design a console that has the hardware design third parties want, may have to initially sell it on their own.  They can't do that if they're releasing only four games a year.

And more variety is needed as broodwars pointed out.  If you're the only dev worth a **** supporting your hardware if ANY notable genre is not spoken for then what the hell are you doing making "duplicates" in the same genre?  The 2D platformer audience has their game.  You don't need DKC and Kirby and Yoshi doing the same thing when the FPS audience and the open world audience, two of the most popular genres right now, have no reason to even consider owning your console.

And they can't destroy their momentum like Adrock said.  Nintendo has been doing this "practically no games for the last year" routine since the N64.  So Nintendo just goes out of sight and out of mind for 8 months to a year seemingly on a regular basis and just assumes everyone is going to be all hyped up for their next product after that?  Of course how can Nintendo address this even if they want to?  Are they going to have the manpower to release enough stuff?  At the very least they should not be picky about localization.

The Wii U successor should come out in November of 2016.  The Xbox was only around for four years but that didn't turn anyone off.  It's the least amount of time where they have both a realistic shot of making the date and it won't come across as abandoning their product.  The PS4 and XB1 will probably last at least as long as their predecessors so Nintendo's console won't be lapped that quickly.  The hardware should have no connection to the Wii branding other than Nintendo being the manufacturer or possibly backwards compatibility.  It should not have "Wii" in the name or look like the Wii.  It should exceed the specs of the PS4, not that much, but enough that it seems current and not like Nintendo playing catch up and can last a few years with the PS5 and XB2(?).  Nintendo should go to major third parties, both Japanese and Western, and get their input into the hardware design.  It should be designed for all devs, not just Nintendo's personal needs.  If anyone should be asked to adapt or adjust it should be Nintendo themselves as they are the only party that can't just choose to deny support.  The priority should for the Nintendo console to be included in multiplatform development, where it's easy enough that third parties might just do it even before the system builds an audience because the risk is minimal.  If necessary Nintendo may have to pay for some timed exclusives or offer help with porting titles at the beginning to rebuild trust with third parties.

Nintendo should aim to have some really impressive stuff at launch because the other guys will have had years of games and ports of the same titles won't move systems.  They need their own killer apps to do that.  They should aim to have a big title like Mario that appeals to all ages and a new IP that appeals more to adults and teens.  This will give the impression that Nintendo isn't just about the same old stuff but isn't abandoning their franchises either.  The goal should be to provide a good variety throughout the console's life.  All these Western devs they should acquire to fill gaps?  Those guys should be working on new IP because Nintendo's existing teams are sufficient for making the franchise stuff.  A console that's just the same Nintendo franchises won't sell beyond what the Wii U is selling now.  No need to abandon those franchises but if you're expanding your output you can cover both bases.

The idea is that this Nintendo console offers what the other guys have but is superior because it also has Nintendo games and Nintendo makes better games than anyone.  For years it's been Nintendo vs. third party games and they lose on sheer numbers.  The goal should be to make it Nintendo's games vs. Sony's games vs. Microsoft's games.  Nintendo can win that if they're a little more ambitious and don't stick to NSMB style safe titles.

Of course if Nintendo goes for a hybrid that's a completely different approach.  That's more like the current approach where Nintendo goes with a distinct product that has almost no common ground with their competitors.  It carries the risk that if it fails both their handheld and console lines are dead.  Though if Nintendo hasn't been prepping for the future they can still execute this idea fairly well while a full-on console stands no chance to succeed if Nintendo keeps up their current infrequent output level.  Though wouldn't this hybrid be HD?  Anything marketed as any sort of console would have to be.  So wouldn't it have the same dev cycle length that the Wii U currently has?  They would need the 3DS third parties to stay on board to fill things out.  I think Nintendo expanding their teams is something they pretty much HAVE to do no matter what.