Topic: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.

[Chozo Ghost]

You also have to keep in mind that the market is a lot larger now than it was when the N64 was around. There are a lot more gamers today than there were in 1996. It is easier for a game to be a million seller today than it was back then.

[fiendcode]

Still going by the charts, N64 had 50 games that sold a million, right now the PSP has 42 games that sold a million (and that doesn't count PSN downloads).  I wouldn't be surprised to see it surpass the N64 by the end of this year.

What "charts" exactly are you using for these figures?  Because those numbers seem extremely suspect imo, PSP software sales are in the toilet in America and Europe (NPD said only one PSP game passed 200k for all of 2010 in the US for example) and in Japan the only million sellers are all Monster Hunter games.  Even so, I can't think of 9+ potential million sellers looking at PSP's future lineup, FF Type 0 is probably the only thing left that can manage it worldwide.


A more relevant comparison though might be total sales (direct from Nintendo and Sony)...


N64 hardware: 32,920,000 (2 models)
N64 software: 224,970,000 (387 titles)
Attach ratio: 6.83


PSP hardware: 67,800,000 (4 models)
PSP software: 262,800,000 (over 2,500 titles)
Attach ratio: 3.87

[ymeegod]

I didn't state 9 new games, there's a couple of games that are closing in on the one million mark milestone some might be over since nobody but the publisher knows the amount of downloads the gotten.  For example if you take in GoW Ghost Spartan and MGS Peace Walker?  The phyical copies only sold 1/2 million but how many downloaded the game through PSN?  The did a reader survey and if that's something to go by 66% downloaded the game.

Pretty sure that game broke over a million ( Konami stated 1.68 million sales for the MGS series for the last year so you'll have to subtract MGS4 sales as well as those few other PSP titles but someone figured it to be 1.1-1.2 million with the PSN numbers).

But yeah, during the last couple of years the sales has slipped stateside, one of it has to do with droughts which is similar to the N64.  People got fed up with them and switched so the user base decreased, but a vast amount of sales was lost due to privacy. 

[nickmitch]

PSP hardware: 67,800,000 (4 models)
PSP software: 262,800,000 (over 2,500 titles)
Attach ratio: 3.87

Question: Does the "2,500 titles" part include UMD movies?

[Chozo Ghost]

PSP hardware: 67,800,000 (4 models)
PSP software: 262,800,000 (over 2,500 titles)
Attach ratio: 3.87

Question: Does the "2,500 titles" part include UMD movies?

Even if it does, there are only like what, 30-50 UMD movies? Most of them came out in 2005-2006 with only a small handful in years following that.

I doubt there have been much (if any) UMD releases in the last 3 years, but I would be curious to know. It would be an interesting piece of trivia to know what the last UMD movie was and when it was released.

[Enner]

I doubt there have been much (if any) UMD releases in the last 3 years, but I would be curious to know. It would be an interesting piece of trivia to know what the last UMD movie was and when it was released.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_movies_and_television_shows_released_on_UMD

Wikipedia reads: The Karate Kid on 2010-06-11 by Overbrook Entertainment


http://www.amazon.com/Sherlock-Holmes-UMD-Robert-Downey/dp/B003TIBPNG/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1300694793&sr=1-1
A quick search on Amazon returns a 2010-06-21 release of Sherlock Holmes.

[fiendcode]

I didn't state 9 new games, there's a couple of games that are closing in on the one million mark milestone some might be over since nobody but the publisher knows the amount of downloads the gotten.  For example if you take in GoW Ghost Spartan and MGS Peace Walker?  The phyical copies only sold 1/2 million but how many downloaded the game through PSN?  The did a reader survey and if that's something to go by 66% downloaded the game.

Pretty sure that game broke over a million ( Konami stated 1.68 million sales for the MGS series for the last year so you'll have to subtract MGS4 sales as well as those few other PSP titles but someone figured it to be 1.1-1.2 million with the PSN numbers).

But yeah, during the last couple of years the sales has slipped stateside, one of it has to do with droughts which is similar to the N64.  People got fed up with them and switched so the user base decreased, but a vast amount of sales was lost due to privacy.

Yeah, Peace Walker should probably be somewhere just over a million.  It did about 800k in Japan alone, and "under 200,000" in the US.  Unfortunately Konami expected it to sell 2 million, had a Monster Hunter tie-in and even gave it this weird "it's really MGS5" PR push last second, so it's not exactly a success all things considered.


GOW Ghost of Sparta failed to crack 200k in the US last year though, and the US is by a gigantic margin GOW's biggest market.  There's pretty much no hope it'll ever sell a million units, at least not in PSP's lifetime.


I think you're vastly overestimating PSN sales rates though.  PSP Go flopped harder than any hardware release in recent memory, and the rates of PSN purchases in Japan are said to be about 10:1 in favor of retail by Famitsu (and Japan's the one market where PSP's actually healthy).  If we're counting digital sales though, shouldn't we also add Virtual Console into N64's favor?  Probably won't change things all that much, but that also might've pushed a few games over a million there (like Ogre Battle 64 or Sin & Punishment).  Same thing with iQue actually, they're all the same game file, even if they're distributed differently (like PSP/PSN).

[ymeegod]

You don't need a PSP GO to access PSN.  You can buy 16+GB cards and add them to any PSP and there's been plenty of new reasons why it's better.  I downloaded 4 titles last year alone mostly because of the killer sales PSN had on those ttitles.  $40 in a retail store or buy it digital for half?  Yeah I miss out of resales (though I never do resell games) and a manual but instead of one game I get two :0.  It's similar to Steam.  Alot of PC sales are made over the net.

NPD stated this is their report.

S&P and Ogre Battle 64 break a million?  S&P sold less than 100K on the N64 in Japan (never sold stateside) and on the VC estimates at a little over 100K.  That's only a quarter million.  Ogre battle 64 sold a bit better at 300-400k but it's VC sales (just released last year) are low.  The list I saw had top 50 WII Ware/VC sales and it didn't make the list so it's below the 10k mark.  There's a remake on the PSP that's about to be released but I'm not sure if you can combine the two sales.

I guess you can combine the sales of VC if you wanted to but they don't really change much.  The top dogs, SMB3 for example already sold a bucket load and made another million sales, but a cult hit like S&P won't be booming any type of success.

[ymeegod]

Here's the list I just copied and paste:
Title   8/23/2010   10/26/2009   9/12/2008
Super Mario Bros 3   608,727   441,911   212,995
Super Mario Bros   487,237   380,379   209,441
Super Mario World   306,504   252,331   151,881
Super Mario 64   261,018   215,834   131,024
Mario Kart 64   257,038   223,316   146,219
Legend of Zelda   211,476   169,326   100,509
Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time   199,046   164,262   97,498
Super Mario Bros 2   185,777   140,438   79,868
Punch-Out!!   169,208   138,304   78,235
Paper Mario   153,542   130,285   85,756
Kirby's Adventure   149,362   121,472   82,935
Donkey Kong Country   144,412   118,792   70,989
Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past   142,435   122,300   80,520
Starfox 64   126,901   112,508   77,917
Donkey Kong   120,453   93,091   51,612
Pac-Man   114,621   83,184   40,745
Super Metroid   102,214   89,197   62,479
Sonic the Hedgehog   94,564   80,279   55,361
Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels   92,651   78,286   52,558
Super Mario RPG   87,723   66,505   N/A
Pokemon Snap   80,019   70,183   49,139
Kirby 64   72,221   61,304   37,029
Metroid   70,045   56,243   36,909
Excitebike   67,636   56,404   N/A
Kid Icarus   67,307   59,886   44,119
Galaga   65,196   49,413   26,684
Yoshi's Story   63,991   52,417   33,107
Zelda 2: Adventure of Link   60,792   48,295   29,913
Mario Bros   60,655   59,052   N/A
Donkey Kong Country 2   59,496   50,205   31,569
Sonic the Hedgehog 2   57,571   48,159   30,749
Tecmo Bowl   54,056   44,693   24,587
Sonic the Hedgehog 3   52,867   43,217   26,402
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles   52,701   45,895   N/A
Gunstar Heroes   49,800   46,668   36,894
Bomberman '93   49,212   46,146   34,916
Bubble Bobble   48,006   39,536   23,366
Super Castlevania 4   46,346   41,572   30,502
Castlevania   45,400   36,644   N/A
Contra 3   43,545   38,769   26,072
Sin and Punishment   42,864   39,023   29,042
Ninja Gaiden   41,966   37,052   26,040
Street Fighter II: World Warrior   38,515   35,761   26,625
Street Fighter II: Turbo   34,762   31,293   21,136
Toe Jam and Earl   34,332   30,788   21,586
Donkey Kong Country 3   34,199   27,684   15,318
Super Smash Bros   32,900   N/A   N/A
Sim City   31,388   28,192   19,368
Super C   29,651   24,371   N/A
Super Street Fighter II   28,280   24,512   N/A
F-Zero X   27,755   24,795   17,603
Bonk's Adventure   27,197   N/A   N/A
Wave Race 64   26,695   24,189   N/A
Harvest Moon   24,591   21,409   14,124
Golden Axe   24,282   22,191   N/A
F-Zero   23,903   N/A   N/A
Castlevania II: Simon's Quest   23,537   19,550   N/A
Streets of Rage 2   23,265   20,750   14,597
Streets of Rage   20,303   18,401   N/A
Breath of Fire 2   19,631   17,688   11,940
Wario's Woods   19,389   16,983   N/A
Actraiser   18,462   16,963   12,651
StarTropics   17,121   14,844   N/A
Super Ghouls 'n' Ghosts   17,099   15,300   N/A
Shining Force   16,710   15,100   10,664
Streets of Rage III   14,275   12,662   N/A
Pokemon Puzzle League   12,521   9,492   N/A
Military Madness   9,418   8,744   N/A
Columns   9,253   N/A   N/A
Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine   7,372   6,594   N/A

[fiendcode]

You don't need a PSP GO to access PSN.  You can buy 16+GB cards and add them to any PSP and there's been plenty of new reasons why it's better.  I downloaded 4 titles last year alone mostly because of the killer sales PSN had on those ttitles.  $40 in a retail store or buy it digital for half?  Yeah I miss out of resales (though I never do resell games) and a manual but instead of one game I get two :0.  It's similar to Steam.  Alot of PC sales are made over the net.

NPD stated this is their report.

S&P and Ogre Battle 64 break a million?  S&P sold less than 100K on the N64 in Japan (never sold stateside) and on the VC estimates at a little over 100K.  That's only a quarter million.  Ogre battle 64 sold a bit better at 300-400k but it's VC sales (just released last year) are low.  The list I saw had top 50 WII Ware/VC sales and it didn't make the list so it's below the 10k mark.  There's a remake on the PSP that's about to be released but I'm not sure if you can combine the two sales.

I guess you can combine the sales of VC if you wanted to but they don't really change much.  The top dogs, SMB3 for example already sold a bucket load and made another million sales, but a cult hit like S&P won't be booming any type of success.

I'm not saying only Go could access PSN, but I'm saying it's utter failure as a PSN only device, sort of helps reinforce that the service likely isn't pushing huge numbers and isn't a huge draw.  PSN pricepoints are usually higher than retail too, and pretty much all new PSP games range from $29-34 anyway (the only new $39 games are usually from Square Enix, and also usually not on PSN simultaneously if at all).  And PSN is nowhere as successful as Steam, not comparable in any meaningful way.  Even XBL isn't as successful as Steam, and that's easily the high water mark for console DD services. 


Also, where are you getting your VC sales lists?  Because they look suspiciously like Nintendo Channel figures, which would be only a fraction of actual sales.


S&P's VC sales were so high, that the greenlit the sequel off it (which flopped but, well, whatever).  I don't think 100-150k would be near enough for that.  S&P was also on iQue (ie: a Chinese only DD N64 in a controller), but we have no numbers at all for that.


The PSP remake is for Tactics Ogre, the 2nd game in the series.  Ogre Battle 64 is the 3rd.  Ogre Battle was the first, and is also on VC.

[Oblivion]

Actually, Suare-Enix recently released a couple new PSP games, all priced at $29.99.

[Chozo Ghost]

The price of downloadable games on PSN is indeed much higher than at most retail stores. This is because items on PSN are set at the MSRP and are never ever marked down. So a game with an MSRP of $59.99 on PSN will always be that price, but a disc version of that same game on Amazon will tend to gradually go down in price and also be effected by occasional sales and other discounts.

So that's why PSN prices suck.

[Nick DiMola]

That's not true at all. Sony has weekly sales. They're not always good, but sometimes things are marked down to ridiculously low prices. Just a week or two ago I finally grabbed both Penny Arcade games for a combined total of $2.99.

Price drops also happen over time. Feel free to check out the PlayStation Blog every week, they post their deals up there on Monday or Tuesday (I can't remember which). We used to cover them on PixlBit, but have since stopped because they were getting to be long stories and reposting the information required a bunch of reformatting.

[Chozo Ghost]

Well, maybe its just because I don't browse the PSN store often enough to notice, but it seems to me the prices are always the same. Even stuff that's been on there for a really long time like the map packs for COD WaW are still the same exact price as they were when they first came out, despite the fact over 2 years has passed. That's just one example. I've even seen stuff go UP in price. For example, about a year ago they used to let you get Mortal Kombat II and SF II off PSN for free, but now they charge you $5 or $10 (I forget which) for them.

Of course, there is a way you can get a discount on some items by signing up for a Plus account, but you have to pay for that and you'd have to buy stuff on there regularly for it to be worthwhile, but even the discount it offers only applies to some things and not everything.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Tretton: Platforms Must Have 'Cutting Edge' Tech At Launch To Stay Relevant; "3DS is a Great babysitting Tool"
Shots Fired!!!! Sony puts foot in mouth and then blows off it's own toe.
Nintendo & MS don't bother to respond since they have consistently stayed more relevant in sales "for a long period"

Nintendo found big success in recent years by releasing hardware that revolved around new kinds of interfaces instead of pushing technical boundaries. Microsoft's Xbox 360 is on the upswing partly thanks to the new Kinect and a gradual addition of new features to its console over the years.

But Sony Computer Entertainment CEO Jack Tretton told Fortune in a new interview that a game console must launch with the best technology available at the time in order to stay relevant for a long period. And that's been PlayStation's philosophy.

"If you're really going to sustain technology for a decade, you have to be cutting edge when you launch a platform," he said.

"Here we are four years into the PlayStation 3, and it's just hitting its stride," he said, echoing another recent interview. "We'll enjoy a long downhill roll behind it because the technology that was so cutting edge in 2006 is extremely relevant today and is conspicuously absent in our competition."

The PS3 launched in 2006, sporting a complex Cell processor, an advanced RSX GPU co-developed by Sony and Nvidia, a standard hard drive, Blu-ray playback, Bluetooth connectivity, built-in wi-fi and HDMI support.

The build costs were high -- estimates found that Sony was selling at a loss of over $300 for the 20GB launch model, which sold for $499. The 60GB model sold for $600 at a reported loss of around $240 at launch.

Since then, Sony has used its expertise in electronics manufacturing to gradually cut costs, and only last year did reports emerge that the company is no longer taking a hit on every console sold. To Tretton, that investment is paying off in the long run.

"[Microsoft and Nintendo] are starting to run out of steam now in terms of continuing to be relevant in 2011 and beyond," Tretton said. "I mean, you've gotta be kidding me. Why would I buy a gaming system without a hard drive in it? How does this thing scale? Motion gaming is cute, but if I can only wave my arms six inches, how does this really feel like I'm doing true accurate motion gaming?"

Sony appears to be once again following its cutting-edge tech philosophy with the PSP successor, the codenamed Next Generation Portable. The NGP will have high-end features, including 3G and wi-fi support, a five-inch multi-touch OLED display, a multi-touch pad on the back, dual analog sticks, flash card support for software, motion sensors, built-in GPS and a four-core CPU, among other features.

At least one analyst expects the NGP to cost "at least" $299 in the U.S. When it launches later this year, it will go head-to-head against Nintendo's $250 3DS. Tretton previously said that price doesn't "make or kill a platform" -- the challenge is providing value for consumers.

Tretton also called Nintendo's market-leading handheld consoles a "great babysitting tool," adding that "no self-respecting 20-something is going to be sitting on an airplane with one of those. He's too old for that."

Shots have been fired from the bell tower, but fortunately no one injured. It's good to see Sony back on the offensive though. It' always entertaining for the last place competitor to talk as if they run the game, especially after losing all their profits from the last generation and have absolutely no chance of making that back even if they keep the PS3 as primary till 2016. So if they plan on packing all they can into the NGP and then selling it at a loss because that is the "Playstation's Philosophy", then by all means, please continue on your set path and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

If the amount of losses incurred on the PS3 & PSP haven't taught you anything..... well then keep fucking that chicken Sony. I'm more interested in getting the most value for my buck and I don't care if you go broke trying to give it to me.

[Oblivion]

Holy...what is this, high school? Sony (or at least Tretton) is acting extremely immature here.

[broodwars]

Yeah, seriously.  I love my PS3 and I've had a good time with my new PSP, but these statements are just arrogant and stupid.  When you're coming out of a console generation with the 3rd place console and the 2nd place handheld, you don't come out of the gate in the next generation talking the same smack and making the same. fracking. mistakes that made you last-place the last generation.

[Chozo Ghost]

Sony has never been known for maturity. Remember the very first Playstation commercials where Crash Bandicoot went over to Nintendo and yelled at them and said Mario was "kiddie"? So this is nothing new. The playstation brand has been immature from the day it was born.

BTW, how old is Jack Tretton? However old he is, he sure isn't acting like it.

[Oblivion]

He's 50.

[Chozo Ghost]

He's 50.

So he's old enough to be a 20-something's father. How the hell does he know what 20-somethings think?

[Ceric]

Study Groups and Time travel?

[Ian Sane]

Well he is right that if you want to last 10 years then you need the most cutting edge hardware available at the time.  That does make sense.  Consoles typically don't last 10 years so in theory you would need something that would take a while to become dated.

Still he is talking some pretty immature smack.  And he's picking on MS, too.  Does anyone really feel like the PS3 is just way ahead of the Xbox 360 in terms of tech?  The Wii is an easy target but the PS3's "superiority" over the Xbox 360 seems like a mere technicality at best.

[Shaymin]

The lesson is, of course, do not drink from a bottle labeled "Kutaragi Secret Sauce" if visiting Sony HQ.

[Ceric]

Some of the Arcade boards where relevant for a good 10 years and there was one with a fighting game where you swear the hardware was majorly beefed up from the first to last entry on the same hardware.  Its sort of interesting what can be done with known hardware with the will to do it.

[Chozo Ghost]

Some of the Arcade boards where relevant for a good 10 years and there was one with a fighting game where you swear the hardware was majorly beefed up from the first to last entry on the same hardware.  Its sort of interesting what can be done with known hardware with the will to do it.

The best example of this is probably the SNES. It started out as a 16-bit machine on par with the Genesis, but by 1994 you had games like DKC and Killer Instinct which looked every bit as good as stuff on 32-bit systems. It probably never would have happened if it wasn't for the N64 and how long Nintendo delayed its release. The SNES by necessity had to stand toe to toe with the 32-bit systems and so every last bit of graphics was squeezed out of it in ways that were probably unimaginable when it launched in 1991.