Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: lolmonade on March 13, 2011, 03:06:02 AM
Title: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: lolmonade on March 13, 2011, 03:06:02 AM
Is it just me or does it seem like Sony hasn't learned anything? I love some of sony's products, but I sincerely feel like they've done nothing to learn from their mistakes in the last console generation. The best example is to compare the NGP to the 3GS.
NGP: Create what can be considered the most advanced hand-held machine with the most features possible (not counting 3D), and sell it at a loss to make it price competitive (but yet, still above what consumers are willing to pay). Include exclusives a year after launch that only a core audience will truly care about (me included, but besides the point). This item will only be popular late in the console cycle when the price has been reduced enough to be considered a worthwhile venture for consumers.
3DS: - proper support from 3rd party developers - proper 3rd party support from the start - Killer app - first glasses-free mobile 3D device: although in the long-term this might take a back-burner, in this environment, this could mean a great deal towards early adopters and casual users - digital game service similar to Wii's (hand-held virtual console): while I wish they'd allow SNES, Genesis, & NES games, it's a good start to allow these systems - Further integration of internet features such as street pass, and online features mirroring the Wii.
I am a fan both of Nintendo and Sony products, but Nintendo seems like they've evolving while Sony is riding the same business strategy that screwed themselves over with the PS3. Any thoughts? Will Sony's strategy work because it's a powerful hand-held system that doesn't cost $600 U.S. Dollars!, or will Nintendo's system of gradual evolution with one innovative feature and much lower price (assumedly) be enough to offset Sony's efforts?
My guess would be Nintendo will reign supreme again, although it will be a much slower burn due to prices of both hand-held consoles.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: ymeegod on March 13, 2011, 06:38:35 AM
" Include exclusives a year after launch that only a core audience will truly care about " Isn't that a matter of opinion?
And Sony still haven's stated what the price will be but either of that will matter because both handhelds are going suffer from the same thing--shortages. Basically whoever makes the most systems is going win round 1.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 13, 2011, 07:08:40 AM
But since Nintendo is launching probably at least 6 months ahead of Sony, they will have resolved a lot of their supply issues before Sony even gets out the door. That plus the fact that I doubt Sony could price it low enough to be competitive with the 3DS without going too far into the red means Nintendo's all but locked up the first year. By that point, Nintendo will have most, if not all, of the big games that have been announced so far, plus even more, and I doubt Sony will have even one really good true exclusive for the NGP. I'm very interested in the NGP, and will likely buy one, but I can't see it keeping up with the 3DS, at least not in the first few years. I can see it being like the PS3, getting out of the gate slow, but picking up steam once the price drops and after building an impressive lineup of exclusives. Sony themselves need to be working on games for the thing that can only be played on it and don't have superior versions on other hardware.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Morari on March 13, 2011, 12:00:46 PM
I haven't been a fan of Sony's hardware for well over two decades. It all tends to be overpriced, sub-par merchandise. Even if it wasn't, it'd be awfully hard to support a company that historically treats its customers as bad as Sony does. Now, as far as video games go? They've proven time and time again that they're not much of a software company.
Concession: I absolutely love Sony Vegas. It's my choice program for video editing. But do keep in mind that it was merely purchased by Sony, not developed.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 13, 2011, 12:24:45 PM
Sony is a Technology Company that is trying to push as much tech into everyones home as possible. A games console is just a way to introduce some tech in hopes of standardizing it. Making games is secondary to the goal of moving the tech forward.
PS1 used CD's which were just becoming popular at the time. But this was mostly an F-U to Nintendo and an entry point into consumers homes PS2 used DVD's which really helped standardize the format in many peoples homes and get them away from VHS. Let's also not forget the Emotion Engine which was supposed to help deliver Toy Story 2 level graphics at a fraction of the price of studio CG machines. PSP was an attempt to push UMD and Memory Stick, but UMD didn't go far enough and no one wants MS when SD has pretty much already won PS3 has almost single handedly standardized Bluray as the only current retail HD movie delivery format. If it wasn't for PS3, HD DVD would still be active. It was also a way to ouch the Cell chip which they wanted to introduce into many other consumer devices so that they could communicate. I've only heard of 1 TV so far that is gonna incorporate it, and I can't really say I see the point yet, but I also haven't seen what this TV can do vs every other TV out there.
For Sony, the software is a showpiece for the technology that makes it possible. They only make the games to interest you in the hardware.
As for Nintendo, the hardware is a catalyst for the games because Nintendo is a games company 1st and foremost. They only make hardware to have a platform on which to sell you games. In fact the hardware is designed to allow the game they have envisioned to become a reality. Every game after that just has to work within those very narrow confines of what was necessary at the time of conception.
So it's not that Sony hasn't really learned anything, they just have a different motivation for even being in this business. While alot of their 1st party games have really stepped up in quality from the days of PS1, gaming is still secondary to selling the tech as they are showpieces for the hardware. The main reason Sony relies on the games to make up for the losses they take on the hardware, is because the hardware is designed to be a powerhouse in hopes of setting industry standards(once the developers have the freedom to express their creativity with limits, do they really want to go back to working with 64MB of RAM and a 2GB delivery format?).
We can even look at MS, whose main motivator is to cock-block Sony from taking over the livingroom with their hardware that doesn't have any Microsoft software on it. MS never really had in interest in the games, but the games are whats gonna sell the hardware which will then allow them to sell you more software & services like Xbox LIVE and all that comes with it (now and what they have planned for the near future). MS's main reason for being in the game is to put MS software all over throughout your home and the only way they can do that is to sell you MS hardware and the only way to sell you MS hardware that puts the computing on the comfort of your TV is through gaming.
MS's 1st major attempt was putting Win CE on the Dreamcast, but that certainly didn't succeed, so they decided make their own hardware. And they tried to sell you this hardware by slapping together the best PC they could for under $300 and pushing "the best unified online service to ever be on such a system".
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2011, 12:50:23 PM
CD's were just becoming popular? They had been popular for years. PS1 used CDs for the storage space. PS2's really only helped DVDs in Japan as the format was already rapidly expanding elsewhere. If anything, DVD helped PS2 since many Japanese launch owners admitted to buying the system mainly as a DVD player (although that may have been because the launch lineup sucked). I will admit that the PS3 helped Blu-ray Disc though since it was the cheapest BD player for some time and even now it is one the better BD players on the market.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: broodwars on March 13, 2011, 12:55:25 PM
Now, as far as video games go? They've proven time and time again that they're not much of a software company.
Oh really? I think Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, The Last Guardian, the Ratchet & Clank series, the Jak & Daxter Series, Infamous 1 & 2, Uncharted 1 & 2, LittleBigPlanet 1 & 2, God of War 1-3, etc. all beg to disagree. You can argue that these were developed by studios that Sony acquired, but they are Sony 1st party titles just as Retro-produced Nintendo titles are still 1st party titles and considered "Nintendo games". Sony may not have been much of a development house in the PS1 era, but they invested wisely when it comes to studios and it's really paying off dividends now.
As for the NGP, I'm pretty indifferent to it. If I wanted a console experience, I'd turn on my PS3. My fear is that Japan's obsession with handhelds will lead (just as it has with the PSP and DS) to nearly all the worthwhile Japanese titles being exclusive to those handhelds, and the NGP being essentially a PS 2.5 doesn't help. If it does come to that, the games I'm interested in will probably go to the NGP over the 3DS, so I might pick one up somewhere down the line when it's cheaper. But that's a big "IF". Personally, I'd just prefer to purchase the titles I want from PSN and just play them on my PS3, but despite being able to see the titles on PSN Sony insists that I purchase and play them on hardware I don't want.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 13, 2011, 01:00:57 PM
CD's were just becoming popular? They had been popular for years. PS1 used CDs for the storage space. PS2's really only helped DVDs in Japan as the format was already rapidly expanding elsewhere. If anything, DVD helped PS2 since many Japanese launch owners admitted to buying the system mainly as a DVD player (although that may have been because the launch lineup sucked). I will admit that the PS3 helped Blu-ray Disc though since it was the cheapest BD player for some time and even now it is one the better BD players on the market.
CD's were already popular when the PS1 came out, but lots of people were still bumping cassettes when they first started making the system. PS1 came out right about the same time that the Discman became the thing to have. And I never said PS1 made CD's popular, just that it came out when CD were just getting really popular (meaning everyone was switching over and dropping cassettes completely.)
If I remember correctly, PS2 was the cheapest DVD player at the time of it's release too. That is the main reason alot of people just bought the PS2, as a DVD player that could also play games. DVD adoption probably would have been much slower had the PS2 not existed. It's the same exact story for the PS3 and Bluray.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2011, 01:12:28 PM
The PS1 probably did help make optical discs more popular for games as all the previous disc systems had failed. I think DVDs still would have continued increasing in popularity without the PS2, but I admit that it probably helped the format a little (not a lot though). The PS2 was a pretty crappy DVD player, but like you said it was one of the cheaper DVD players early on.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 13, 2011, 03:40:12 PM
The thing that helped DVD the most was that you didn't have to rewind it. It was a huge leap forward over VHS in terms of picture/sound quality and so on. There was far more of an incentive to upgrade from VHS to DVD than there is at the moment to upgrade from DVD to Blu-ray. DVD solved a lot of problems VHS had, that's why it caught on so fast. Blu-ray is an incremental improvement and not the huge leap forward that its successor was.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 13, 2011, 04:34:44 PM
That is a major reason why I haven't jumped on the Bluray bandwagon. It's only benefit is a higher resolution, and considering that most of the movies I watched are upscaled on DVD and/or streamed over the internet, a Higher resolution isn't really something that I am willing to pay more for.
Not having to rewind or fast forward to get to the movie, or a specific scene in the movie was a HUGE motivation towards getting with DVD, not to mention that you could store 2.5x-3x as many DVD's in the same space that you kept your VHS tapes assuming that you kept it in it's case .
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2011, 04:42:00 PM
There is also the storage space issue, up to 50GB on Blu-ray Disc compared to 8.7GB for DVD. There are also the BD-Live features. However, I don't think the extra features are worth the price increase (BD discs tend to be about $10 more).
Title: Thread Hijack: Tech Talk & Format Wars
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 13, 2011, 05:06:23 PM
As a consumer, why would I care about storage space if it hold the movie I want to watch, the previews and the extra features all the same? Storage space means nothing to me as a consumer unless I get to store stuff on it.
One of the funniest things about Bluray advertising that I still don't get is how they include that bluray ad on lots of DVD's that try to show of the High Resolution picture as I'm watching it from a DVD as if I can see what they hell they are talking about. And I don't even know what BD Live is or why I would want to use it. I'm still not sure why I'd need my Bluray player connected to the internet outside of Netflix & hulu. In other words, no one has made me realize what I am missing, and until they do, I have no incentive to upgrade.
At this point, I'm waiting to see what's up with HVD & 4K video. I assume 4K will be the Theater standard that brings Bigscreen HD visuals to the masses and that those 4k movies will ship to theaters on HVD's. That will be an incentive for many to go back to the theater and allow people to SEE what they are missing by not having an HD player in their house, and a block against quality bootleg movies as they will not be able to simply copy the disc (200GB+ movies with completely uncompressed audio and video) and considering that lots of the movies might be shot in 3D at that point, a cam copy would look like crap too.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 13, 2011, 05:31:54 PM
Blu-ray probably isn't going to have a long life because there is already stuff that dwarfs it. Why adopt that and invest a small fortune in a library of Blu-ray media when 5 years from now something like HVD is just going to replace it anyway? That said, the only Blu-ray media I own are my PS3 games. I own a PS3 so I do have the means to play Blu-ray movies, but I'm just not interested at all.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2011, 05:34:17 PM
BD-Live allows you to get access to more bonus stuff. For example, The Dark Knight allowed you to record your own video commentary (assuming you have a webcam) and then upload it for others to watch, it also had a live blog with Christopher Nolan where you could watch the movie with him and other fans and ask him questions. Julie & Julia let you have recipes e-mailed to you if you were watching the movie and wanted the recipe for what they were cooking. Disney has it with all of their titles that you can chat with other people who are watching the movie at the same time (among other things). With X-Men Origins: Wolverine, you could bring up a actor's IMDb page while you are watching the movie. When a studio actually takes advantage of BD-Live, it's a pretty cool feature.
As for storage space, it lets you use fewer discs. For example, The Simpsons: The Complete Thirteenth Season is 3 discs on BD and 4 discs on DVD. This won't matter much if you just want a plain movie, but it's great if you want a TV season set or movie collection.
BD isn't going away anytime soon, new tech takes years to come out. Besides, HVD offers nothing but more storage space. At least BD and HD DVD offered improved visuals among other things.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: broodwars on March 13, 2011, 05:37:39 PM
That is a major reason why I haven't jumped on the Bluray bandwagon. It's only benefit is a higher resolution, and considering that most of the movies I watched are upscaled on DVD and/or streamed over the internet, a Higher resolution isn't really something that I am willing to pay more for.
Honestly, the benefit of Blu-Ray HD in a lot of the movies I watch varies. There is definitely a noticeable difference between standard def DVDs on my LCD TV and seeing them on Blu-Ray, but you have to have the right TV and you have to have the right kind of movie to really see it. What really shines on Blu-Ray, though, is animation. Apparently, the Blu-Ray standard has an especially rich color palette compared to DVD, so animation is just gorgeous on the format (notable examples: Star Wars - The Clone Wars and Beauty & the Beast). CG animation (which can have a lot of issues with compression artifacts) can be shown much less compressed due to the 50 GB size limit. Naturally, the animation has to be remastered for HD, but when it has been there really is no contest between DVD and Blu-Ray.
EDIT: And yeah, having it all on fewer discs is a definite plus when you're trying to cut down on storage.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 13, 2011, 05:47:52 PM
Besides, HVD offers nothing but more storage space.
Storage space is the only thing any sort of disc offers. Do you understand how technology works? Blu-ray discs do not have magical enchanted properties that DVD doesn't have. The only advantage it offers over DVD is more storage space, but that increase in storage space opens many doors and allows Blu-ray discs to do many things, such as contain full length movies in HD. DVDs can also hold the same HD video, but not as much of it. Maybe only a half hour or so. Certainly not enough for a full length movie.
With 500GB at its disposal, HVD can do 10 times what a 50gb Blu-ray can do. If you think BD-Live is impressive, just wait until HVD-Live shows up.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 13, 2011, 05:58:37 PM
But I see Bluray as a stop-gap between DVD and HVD. HVD will be the last physical disc format that Consumers will need as that will be when HD video & audio can be fully uncompressed for the future High Density SuperHD screens.
I don't expect HVD to wait for SHD(4k+) screens, but you make the point of a sason on The Simpson being 4 DVD's and only 3 BRD's, but that would be 1 HVD. Just picture something like the complete series of Law & Order. On DVD that must be something close to 50 DVD's at this point. Which might only be about 35 BRD's and then 10 HVD's.
The benefits of BD Live sound amusing for the first few times you try it at best and then quickly forgotten afterwards. It's actually sounds a little like have the forums on your TV while you watch a show, only your programs aren't synced and someone has just ruined what happens in 10 minutes for you. Either way, everything that Bluray has HVD will have only it will also have more storage space (which they might actually be able to put to use by maybe recording your commentary to your disc or recording peoples reactions to certain scenes of certain movies right on the disc. Or whatever other things they imagine might be an attention worthy gimmick at the time.), uncompressed audio, extremely high resolution for those that have the equipment to take advantage of it & the best way to fight piracy for retail released disc*.
*Who is gonna have a HVD burner and blank HVD disc**? Who is gonna rip 200GB+ files and upload them to the internet? Who is gonna download 200+GB files everytime they want to watch a movie?
**I realized I mentioned burning straight to the disc earlier, but you never know how that stuff works. Could be a hybrid disc that uses a different type of re-writable format. This is all hypothetical talk so lets not focus on that. ;)
edit: @ Broodwars I have no doubts that HD looks better, I used to have HD cable service, but after a certain amount of time, I realized tha tit just doesn't really matter to me all that much. It looks much cleaner, a lot finer detail, an overall just much better picture, but is that really worth paying more for? $10 extra a month for HD cable when I watch most stuff online/on the computer anyway? an extra $10 per movie or TV Show series/volume? To me, not right now, as like I said, I don't reallly know what I'm missing.
If Comcast gave me Free HD for the next 3 months and moved all teh HD channels to take place of the regular SD channels, then I might not want to go back to regular TV. If Netflix started streaming in 1080p onto my computer screen, then I might get annoyed when non-HD things start to look a little blurry in comparison.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2011, 06:00:05 PM
BD isn't going away anytime soon, new tech takes years to come out.
Its out now.
You mean the tech that finished in 2007 and 4 years later there is STILL no HVD player? Companies have shown they have zero interest in it, it's basically vaporware now. The first Blu-ray Disc player came out a few months after the specs were finished, DVD was less than a year. Considering that no company has actually used it despite the final specs being approved almost 4 years ago, I wouldn't hold my breath of it replacing anything.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 13, 2011, 06:17:57 PM
I'm sure it's mostly because all the studios were supporting HD DVD and Bluray at the same time, so to support a 3rd format would be spreading resources and attention too thin.
Now that Bluray has "succeeded", at least won out over HD DVD, it's too soon to push another format when adoption of Bluray is still climbing at a reasonable pace. I say give it 2-3 years before HVD/Bluray/DVD players hit the market, and then eventually movie studios start testing out the waters with HVD releases of Blockbuster hits.
p.s. there is one HVD player on the market that I know of, but I don't know of any media that was released on the format yet.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2011, 06:22:11 PM
You mean the tech that finished in 2007 and 4 years later there is STILL no HVD player?
That doesn't matter. The CD format was invented in 1982 but it took about 10 years after that before it really took off. What everyone is probably waiting on is for the cost of the HVD media and hardware to go down. If it costs thousands of dollars for a player and hundreds for a disc then its not yet at the point where its viable to anyone except wealthy businesses and organizations that might need it for data storage/backup.
BTW, I just looked on Wikipedia and apparently the storage capacity of an HVD is a whopping 6 TB (Terabytes). I don't know who first said 500gb, but that's actually far less than what its capable of. It really makes a Blu-ray look like a floppy disk in comparison.
ETA: I also looked at the Blu-ray article on Wikipedia and found this:
Quote
The first Blu-ray Disc prototypes were unveiled in October 2000, and the first prototype player was released in April 2003 in Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan). After that, it continued to be developed until its official release in June 2006.
So the first prototype thing was in 2000 and it didn't hit the market until 2006. That's 6 years. So if HVD was finalized 4 years ago and still hasn't hit the market then that's not really unusual considering Blu-ray was the same way. I can imagine back in 2000 people on the internet may have been having a similar discussion. At that time Blu-ray must have seemed like the boogeyman on the horizon that HVD is today.
HVD will be the last physical disc format that Consumers will need
For the foreseeable future anyway. Its probably decades away, but at some point something like the Holodecks from Star Trek TNG may become a reality. You would need a massive amount of storage space for that ****. There is some famous quote by Bill Gates from either the 70s or the 80s where he said 600kb of storage space is all any average person would ever need.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: oohhboy on March 13, 2011, 10:43:05 PM
Bluray is a joke of the worse kind. With codecs like H.264 and the like you could code a 720p, 90minute movie in to 1.5GB into a file that 99% of people would have accepted. The last 1% would have been the audio/videophiles that will never be satisfied unless they got the original prints.
The point is that we could have had Full/HD video on DVD at a good quality and price. Bluray is incredibly wasteful for what it does. It is a pointless step till before we got our collective hands on uncompressed formats.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2011, 11:10:50 PM
You mean the tech that finished in 2007 and 4 years later there is STILL no HVD player?
That doesn't matter. The CD format was invented in 1982 but it took about 10 years after that before it really took off. What everyone is probably waiting on is for the cost of the HVD media and hardware to go down. If it costs thousands of dollars for a player and hundreds for a disc then its not yet at the point where its viable to anyone except wealthy businesses and organizations that might need it for data storage/backup.
What are you talking about? You are comparing the rise in popularity of one product to another product that is not even out?
ETA: I also looked at the Blu-ray article on Wikipedia and found this:
Quote
The first Blu-ray Disc prototypes were unveiled in October 2000, and the first prototype player was released in April 2003 in Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan). After that, it continued to be developed until its official release in June 2006.
So the first prototype thing was in 2000 and it didn't hit the market until 2006. That's 6 years. So if HVD was finalized 4 years ago and still hasn't hit the market then that's not really unusual considering Blu-ray was the same way. I can imagine back in 2000 people on the internet may have been having a similar discussion. At that time Blu-ray must have seemed like the boogeyman on the horizon that HVD is today.
You are mixing up two different things. They may have started working on Blu-ray technology in 2000, but the final specs (meaning the actual discs that will be used by consumers and companies) wasn't released until 2006, at which point the first movies came out only a few months later. HVD began in 2004. The final specs were approved in June 2007, but nothing has been released with it yet (aside from some random HVD player in India). As for 500 GB, that is probably referring to a version of it from GE. Even if they can hold 6TB, that won't happen anytime soon as even the most generous statement only has 1TB out in 2019. It would be cool to have that much space, but right now HVD can not even be taken seriously until a company actually does something.
ooohhboy, I don't think you understand how technology works.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 13, 2011, 11:32:13 PM
HVD will be the last physical disc format that Consumers will need
For the foreseeable future anyway. Its probably decades away, but at some point something like the Holodecks from Star Trek TNG may become a reality. You would need a massive amount of storage space for that ****. There is some famous quote by Bill Gates from either the 70s or the 80s where he said 600kb of storage space is all any average person would ever need.
By that time we out gro the HVD disc and their multiple layer (as you said, 6GB), we will probably have moved onto some other tech like the Holocubes that Nintendo & InPhase were rumored to have been working on 5+years ago.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 14, 2011, 12:39:58 AM
CD's were just becoming popular? They had been popular for years. PS1 used CDs for the storage space. PS2's really only helped DVDs in Japan as the format was already rapidly expanding elsewhere. If anything, DVD helped PS2 since many Japanese launch owners admitted to buying the system mainly as a DVD player (although that may have been because the launch lineup sucked). I will admit that the PS3 helped Blu-ray Disc though since it was the cheapest BD player for some time and even now it is one the better BD players on the market.
A lot of people did buy the PlayStation because it was a CD player (it's actually a very good CD player). Also, the PS2 did help the DVD market quite significantly. A lot of people never owned a DVD until the bought a PS2 (myself included), the PS2 (well, at least before upscaling players were the standard) is also a very good DVD player (if you have a remote control). And I disagree about one thing about the PS3 - it's not one of the better BD players today, it is *the best* BD player today, and that probably won't change for quite some time. It has everything that they keep adding to BD players, and has had them for quite some time (Netflix, Hulu, BD Live, WiFi, Vudu, 3D support, etc). If you're in the market for a BluRay player, then I highly recommend the PS3, even if you hate Sony and never plan on playing any PS3 games. I think Netflix on the PS3 is actually (far) superior to the Xbox 360 and PC (and Wii, but SD on Wii Netflix actually looks fantastic) counterparts.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 14, 2011, 12:53:01 AM
Why does Xbox360 & PS3 Netflix get 1080p but my PC doesn't?
can someone please explain that to me.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Enner on March 14, 2011, 03:52:03 AM
I would guess either money hats or the assumption the home theater PC is an negligible audience. Also, perhaps the thought of sitting in front of laptop or computer monitor to watch a hi-def movie is stupid and not worthy of support in Netflix's eyes.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 14, 2011, 05:09:42 AM
I would guess either money hats or the assumption the home theater PC is an negligible audience. Also, perhaps the thought of sitting in front of laptop or computer monitor to watch a hi-def movie is stupid and not worthy of support in Netflix's eyes.
But the PC is only the device that made the streaming service popular in the first place... :(
It was because of Netflix that alot of people started actually hooking their PC's up to their LCD screens.
Or maybe they figured it was alot less bandwidth to service the HD consoles with HD video (it was likely a condition for support) instead of the 10's of millions of current customers on the PC already. That's stuipid though, if you have an HD capable device and a HD capable internet stream, then they should send you the HD stream if it's available.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 14, 2011, 07:34:53 AM
Also, perhaps the thought of sitting in front of laptop or computer monitor to watch a hi-def movie is stupid and not worthy of support in Netflix's eyes.
You can hook your PC up to a HD TV as long as the TV has VGA input and/or if your PC has HDMI output.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Morari on March 14, 2011, 10:09:18 AM
Why does Xbox360 & PS3 Netflix get 1080p but my PC doesn't?
can someone please explain that to me.
Because people forget that PCs have had far superior monitor resolutions for... oh, ever? In fact, PC screens have taken a pretty big step backward as high resolution televisions have become popular, effectively merging both markets into just one.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 14, 2011, 12:32:54 PM
In regards to handhelds Sony is still as clueless as ever and Nintendo can seemingly do no wrong.
On the console side Sony seems to have forgotten a lot of stuff. The PS3 was too expensive so they lost their top spot. I guess they forgot about killing the Saturn with a $100 lower price or how Playstation games were always cheaper than N64 titles. Being affordable was a big reason why they had such widespread appeal but with the PS3 they became more high end and less accessible. Yet it seems that a lot of the things that Playstation fans liked about the brand has remained. You can still count on the PS3 to have great third party support which is probably the biggest reason why the Playstation became anything at all. To have such strong third party support while being in last place is very impressive. The PS3 also seems to lack some of the hardware reliability problems their previous systems had. But overall Sony was arrogant, much like Nintendo was with the N64, and it bit them in the ass.
But the way I see it Nintendo hasn't really learned anything either. They're still as unpopular as ever with third party developers. They still are ridiculously restrictive when it comes to providing options and they're still very slow to adapt to changes in technology (generation behind on optical discs, then online gaming, now HDTVs) but the 3DS demonstrates a potential improvement with that. With the old market of core gamers they continue to remain irrelevant. What Nintendo learned was that casuals have considerably lower standards of quality and can be won over with gimmicks. That has made them very successful but in a way it was "cheating". With the old market they learned nothing from their failures. They just bypassed that all with a new market. That's pretty smart from a business perspective but Nintendo's traditional arrogance remains. I honestly think that their dominance in the casual market relies on a lack of competition. Once paired off against someone who isn't so restrictive and inflexible they'll lose because they still don't get why Sony owned their ass 15 years ago. They're relying on the ignorance of the new market they've attracted. Once they're "exposed", they'll be in the same trouble as they were with the old market. They also benefit a lot in the handheld market by being merely competent while all of their competition can't seem to get anything right.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 14, 2011, 12:43:16 PM
You acknowledge the 3DS in that second paragraph, but basically every point you make is contradicted by what Nintendo did with it.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: fiendcode on March 14, 2011, 01:48:41 PM
What Nintendo learned was that casuals have considerably lower standards of quality and can be won over with gimmicks.
I'd argue that this is not only untrue, but the "casual" market is actually far more difficult to discern and ultimately sell to than the "hardcore". The core market is easy to predict, and easy to placate.
Casuals are no less prone to lower standards than the core are. The sales disparity in a high quality casual game (say something from Nintendo or Popcap) versus the deluge of no-brand shovelware out there is massive. Easily as large as the gulf between top core games (like Halo for example) and lower quality core efforts.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 14, 2011, 03:19:49 PM
Quote
You acknowledge the 3DS in that second paragraph, but basically every point you make is contradicted by what Nintendo did with it.
It's too early. The 3DS is brand new and we don't know how things will go. Plus it's a handheld and I'm talking consoles. Hell the 3DS is pretty much exacly would expect from a DS successor (aside from the specifics of the 3D, but it was fair to assume some sort of gimmick was going to be part of it). Until I see the Wii 2, I won't know if Nintendo has learned squat. They likely won't have, because they didn't need to to make a buck.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 14, 2011, 03:22:13 PM
Nintendo wins over with "gimmicks" like analog control, rumble, motion controls, and cartridge based media for handhelds. Oh that Nintendo, what effe ups, those gimmicks did nothing for gaming now. Oh wait.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on March 14, 2011, 04:30:53 PM
I think the Wii is exactly what Nintendo did with 64 except it actually worked.
Nintendo has always been a multiplayer company. Though, arguably, some of their best most memorable games are single player, Nintendo is a family company and wants the entire family to enjoy videogames. The Wii did that perfectly. So I'm sorry, Ian. Nintendo will never satisfy you unless 3rd Parties jump on board.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: oohhboy on March 14, 2011, 04:53:11 PM
Everybody wants a Poshe 911, Austin Martin, Ferrai, airplane or some flash vehicle with some awesome feature, but you can't afford it (flying to work by helicopter) or it isn't practical(Ride lawn mower to work). So what do you do? buy something affordable and gets the job done. Your Toyotas, the odd Ford(Back when they were sane) or Holden, second hand etc.
In this market Sony is Poshe, selling that high end pleasure in vehicle form, while Nintendo is Toyota, serving the average man. While there is inherently nothing wrong with Sony working the high end of the market, the problem is that Sony requires high volumes which the high end market never produces due to price. By building a Ferrai, they corner themselves. Drop the price low enough for long enough to generate the volumes in a gamble to sell enough Sony gas to make up the loss? Tried that, didn't sell enough gas to make up for the loss wiping 10 years of profits.
Sony has always felt that they were the "High end" of the market and once upon a time they were worth the extra little premium. They lucked out with the PS1 when they built what Nintendo should have built. Riding that momentum they built the PS2 which was poorly engineered(Not that this matters to the end user, except for that laser)for the task due to the "custom" hardware, but had a DVD kicker along with launching early (Bloody terrible Fantavision) in the face of nearly no competition, allowed for an extended honeymoon period.
Ps3 comes along and things goes nuts. There is more competition than ever. They make the PS3 a rocket(Cell) sled that has the turn radius of an iceberg (Turns out there are corners) with a price high enough that if you took that loss Sony was taking, you could by a Wii. Market talk that sounds like stuff coming from "Dear Leader". They built the gaming equivalent of the concept car and sold it to the general public believing they were everyman, therefore they knew what he wanted.
In a way I can't blame them. They had 2 very good generations and the division was the boy wonder of the company. They just never understood why they were successful in the first place. They stole lightning in a bottle and never thought to see how to get it in there in the first place. I would say that Sony has no idea what it's doing and falling back on "Premium" that had worked well for them back in the heyday when they made mostly TVs.
With the NGP they will be repeating themselves for the third time. They can't survie PS4.
Nintendo could build something better hardware than they are offering and I am sure this pisses off fans knowing there they can do better. But better doesn't sell well enough, good enough sells lots more.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on March 14, 2011, 05:14:57 PM
Whiile your logic for the most part is sound, Nintendo couldn't have survived by just being good enough. They needed a main draw. So in your car analogy, they'd be the Toyota Hybrid.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 14, 2011, 05:21:06 PM
Quote
So I'm sorry, Ian. Nintendo will never satisfy you unless 3rd Parties jump on board.
Um, yes of course. What's the point you're trying to make? This is largely my whole beef with them. They won't satisfy me until they get their act together and provide a console with a decent selection of games.
The irony is that this is what Nintendo consistently provides with EVERY handheld and provided it for their first two consoles. And yet it seems like the general Nintendo fanbase is totally cool with the way things have been for the last 15 years and act like I'm out of line for being upset with it.
For car analogies, Nintendo would be a public transportation system. Good if your routine follows the route of the subway but borderline worthless for anything else. And then when you complain that the subway doesn't go anywhere near your house they tell you that it doesn't make sense to live there.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on March 14, 2011, 06:14:54 PM
The point I'm trying to make is the catch 22. Nintendo will never satisfy you unless 3rd Parties jump on board. But 3rd Parties will never jump on board...soooooo....you'll never be happy with Nintendo.
EDIT: I guess that point is pointless to make since it's so obvious you're unhappy.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Morari on March 14, 2011, 06:43:25 PM
Nintendo wins over with "gimmicks" like analog control, rumble, motion controls, and cartridge based media for handhelds. Oh that Nintendo, what effe ups, those gimmicks did nothing for gaming now. Oh wait.
Exactly. Gimmicks like rumble and motion controls. :P
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 14, 2011, 07:12:49 PM
Quote
The point I'm trying to make is the catch 22. Nintendo will never satisfy you unless 3rd Parties jump on board. But 3rd Parties will never jump on board...soooooo....you'll never be happy with Nintendo.
But there is no causation so it's not a catch 22. A catch 22 would be that Nintendo will never satisfy me unless third parties jump on board but they'll never jump on board unless I'm happy with Nintendo. There is no insurmountable obstacle prohibiting Nintendo from attracting decent third party support. So things could change. The cynic in me says they probably won't but there is no reason it cannot happen.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: oohhboy on March 14, 2011, 07:29:57 PM
I was tempted to use the Prius, but in response I would have said that Toyota should have made a fully electric car instead. What Toyota ended up with was a car too heavy for it's size that still ran off the ICE, therefore gas. Toyota should have had mains charging from the get go and allowing full electric mode. In the end the Prius is a normal car that has massive load of batteries, not the other way around.
Motion controls would have been the electric motor and the Wii itself with the limited display power the ICE. The wow factor of motion control allowed Nintendo to reach critical mass well before it's flaws could kneecap it. The Wii is a flawed, unbalanced machine. Too little local storage, terrible on line infrastructure, under-powered to hell. To you or me, this is clearly not "Good enough", but we are, admittedly, not most people.
However this hasn't stopped most of you from buying the Wii. The hardware isn't good enough, then what is? Nintendo's imagination(Sorry, no car equivalent here) in the form of their staff that produces all those great games in such long running series that any other company would have fallen to sequitis. This alone allowed to to get past the N64, GC. Take almost any Nintendo game and after playing it you almost always could say it plays well regardless of your personal tastes.
You might not agree with the delivery method(Machine), but the results(Games) speak for themselves.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Morari on March 14, 2011, 09:11:23 PM
Car analogies are fun!
So the Wii is actually an old VW Beetle? It's underpowered and lacking in space, but it's super cheap and charming nonetheless. When people see one out on the road, they can't help but smile. It might just be because it's design is so odd that it's appealing, but it's probably because almost everyone has a good memory associated with one from their past.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 15, 2011, 12:20:23 PM
Quote
So the Wii is actually an old VW Beetle?
No, it's a New Beetle. It's just a new body on a VW Golf (ie: Gamecube) frame.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: MaryJane on March 15, 2011, 01:02:49 PM
So now that you've argued AGAIN about the whether the Wii is a gimmick or not, and its lack of 3rd party support how about what Sony has learned?
I don't mean to sound however that sounds, but do we really need to hash out old arguments with Ian? He's not going to be convinced, and he has some fair grievances, there's really nothing beyond that...
The PS3 is doing okay, and it is helped by its Blu-Ray player, which also helps Sony. All of their consoles have pushed a new, or burgeoning media format, and did so succesfully.
They tried to recreate that magic in the PSP and UMDs and failed. The PSP was/is marginally successful, but it failed on its mission to make UMDs popular, which would have in turn made the PSP popular. Now with the NGP they are moving over to digital downloads, and in an iTunes/App Store world, digital downloads is what it's all about. As Apple has already done it, Sony can't make digital downloads popular (I know mp3s and Napster were around before the iPod, but the iPod, then iTunes, and now the AppStore, made it mainstream and introduced/duped people into buying digital products they would not have with Apple's insistence) but they can ride the wave.
Also, the NGP is balls out powerful. If Sony has any sense in them, they'll encourage Kinect like hacks of the device and let people explore what can be done with quadcore mobile power. With phones and tablets becoming more powerful and going dualcore, Sony could have a marketable advantage in the competition for mobile users.
As for the 3DS, I think it will make 3D more popular, and in turn make itself more popular because of the ease of access and friendly price (compared to other 3D products).
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Morari on March 15, 2011, 02:47:18 PM
No, it's a New Beetle. It's just a new body on a VW Golf (ie: Gamecube) frame.
But the only people that like New Beetles are college girls and middle-aged women (old hippies that have long since sold out). Is the Wii a girl's console? :P
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 15, 2011, 06:25:39 PM
They tried to recreate that magic in the PSP and UMDs and failed. The PSP was/is marginally successful, but it failed on its mission to make UMDs popular, which would have in turn made the PSP popular.
There is absolutely no point whatsoever in promoting UMD as a format when it only exists on the PSP itself. There is no UMD support for any other device on the market, and most likely there never will be. Even the most current PSP model has dropped support for it.
If Sony had been serious about the format being successful they would have included support for it in other devices (such as the PS3, for example). There are no burners for the format nor blank media consumers can purchase to burn their own UMDs. Without that sort of support there was no chance in hell it ever could have went anywhere. And no one wanted to buy movies in UMD format because for one thing they cost more, for antoher thing they were inferior to even DVDs, and finally they were only usable on the tiny little PSP and its tiny screen. What chance did UMD ever have? The only shocking thing was morons at Sony like Kutaragi seemed to think it was going to be a success despite these impossible obstacles in its way. It was like putting Steve Urkel in a gladiator match to the death against Chuck Norris and banking on Urkel being victorious. It just wasn't going to happen.
There is no insurmountable obstacle prohibiting Nintendo from attracting decent third party support. So things could change. The cynic in me says they probably won't but there is no reason it cannot happen.
Actually, there's something that's holding back third party support that is pretty much insurmountable: Nintendo's Kiddie image. Even if Nintendo had hardware that was on par with the competition in every respect there would still be many 3rd parties who would dismiss them as "kiddie" and refuse to support them in any way. Nintendo can't do anything about that. They can beef up the hardware and they can address other issues developers might have, but the "kiddie" image is something they can't change.
Unless Nintendo did a complete 180 from everything they've ever did from their founding and abandon Mario and all their other Core franchises and start producing blood and gore killing fest games then they are going to suffer with third party support. Can you see Nintendo doing that, though? I can't. Its not impossible, but the odds are so remote that its more likely for planet Earth to be invaded by Spaghetti monsters.
Its a ridiculous reason, but its what has hurt Nintendo with third parties for many years.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 15, 2011, 07:58:43 PM
Nintendo doesn't have a kiddy image anymore. They traded it for the casual image... which is worse.
I believe Nintendo's lack of third party support is largely their own inability to be accomodating. They think of third parties as rivals at worst or are utterly indifferent at best. If that ever changed, they could work to repair things without having to ditch Mario or having any real impact of their own first party software.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: oohhboy on March 16, 2011, 05:35:55 AM
Sega does what Nintendon't. :cool; Last thing you want is for Nintendo to pull a Sonic with Mario
If accommodating 3rd party mean handing out money hats, it has been shown it's not profitable for the console maker. Sure it makes sense if your breaking into the market, buying support, but when your doing it in you're third alliteration, something is structurally wrong. Even MS has gotten shy or hush hush over money hats, since Rare.
That said, Nintendo does buy support, by making them 2nd party.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Enner on March 16, 2011, 07:45:13 AM
Bringing them in to the fold. Wait, that would be buying them outright like Retro and Monolith. I guess that would be fine as well, assuming that their games are released widely (Xenoblade, I want to play you).
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 16, 2011, 10:05:50 AM
With all this money Nintendo now has they probably should be making some acquisitions. Abraham Lincoln said "I destroy my enemy when I make him my friend", well buying these companies up is making friends, because you now own them and can get their products delivered exclusively to your systems.
That said, Nintendo should try to target Rockstar. This is a company which is known for the M rated games like GTA and Red Dead Redemption. Imagine what it would do for improving Nintendo's image among the hardcore crowd if these sorts of games suddenly became exclusive to Nintendo.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 16, 2011, 11:32:55 AM
Would you want them to just target Rockstar Games or go for all of Take-Two Interactive? I think they would have to go for the whole company since I am not sure the company could survive without GTA. I would love to see Nintendo buy them, even just to see the reaction from Sony and Microsoft fanboys. LOL.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 16, 2011, 02:37:42 PM
The problem is that if Nintendo were to buy Take Two there would be nothing stopping all the developers from leaving and forming new studios. Nintendo knows that, and that's why they don't buy developers very often, and when they do they're usually small, relatively new ones.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 16, 2011, 02:48:41 PM
True, Nintendo themselves have even said that they buy studios for the talent who work there since they are the ones responsible for making the games. I am sure if Nintendo could convince people like the Houser brothers to sign contracts guaranteeing they would stay with the company, they might consider it.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 16, 2011, 02:49:09 PM
If anything, they should invest in these companies so that they have a large enough percentage of votes to influence decisions. This will not get them exclusivity in most cases, but it should get them a game on their platform in every case, not to mention first crack at DLC and any other extras.
And then if MS or Sony want to purchase exclusive DLC, then they are basically buying Nintendo out of the right and that will be much more expensive than it is now.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on March 16, 2011, 02:58:10 PM
Nintendo shouldn't buy companies. Instead, they should open up several more studios of their own with different and diverse objectives, and recruit new blood.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 16, 2011, 03:11:15 PM
Nintendo shouldn't buy companies. Instead, they should open up several more studios of their own with different and diverse objectives, and recruit new blood.
I think, given the incredible success of EAD Tokyo, this is clearly the way to go.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Kytim89 on March 16, 2011, 03:54:17 PM
We can all agree that the Wii 2 needs to have stronger third party support and that means that the system will have to be HD and have better online capabilities.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 16, 2011, 06:05:11 PM
It isn't about moneyhats. It's about having flexible hardware that meets the needs of most developers, not just Nintendo, and having good development kits and support, and having a licencing model that is financially worthwhile for third parites. It's about making it easy for devs to make the games they want to make on your system. You don't have to pay them for that. Hell, everyone is multiplatform these days.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on March 16, 2011, 06:19:10 PM
I think Nintendo is pretty much always going to be one generation behind from now on (or until it's negligible). So much for multi-platform...
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Oblivion on March 16, 2011, 06:53:52 PM
Who's to say they're "one gen behind"? I say they're right there with Sony and MS. Just because they have inferior hardware doesn't make them behind anything. Hardware sales clearly indicate that.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on March 16, 2011, 07:54:43 PM
Whoa buddy. Relax.
All I'm talking about is hardware. They are clearly one gen behind. Sure the games look great, but since the Wii can't support HD, no HD games are coming to it unless they are gimped, making multi-platform games difficult. But it's cool. Nintendo doesn't push the envelope in terms of graphical hardware, but they don't need to.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Oblivion on March 16, 2011, 08:00:53 PM
I am relaxed. I just sound intense. XD And yep, I kinda agree with you, even though I hate HD.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 16, 2011, 08:19:54 PM
Graphic tech-wise Nintendo may be behind a gen (Wii is basically a GC 1.5), but at the same time I think Xbox360 & PS3 may have jumped a little too far ahead considering the starting price of their launch consoles considering they were both taking a loss on hardware.
We should be on the verge of a new generation end of this year and PS360.5 is where we should naturally be with the affordable unified hardware structure.
So I think Nintendo may get back on the curve this upcoming gen, but Sony & MS will probably still be atleast a 1/2 gen ahead and their prices will show that.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 16, 2011, 09:00:35 PM
I think Nintendo is pretty much always going to be one generation behind from now on (or until it's negligible). So much for multi-platform...
So because ONE system of theirs was behind, you assume that is gonna be the standard for them now?
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Shorty McNostril on March 17, 2011, 05:17:11 AM
Hopefully, the 3DS gives us a glimpse of Nintendo's future strategy.
They gave the 3DS some grunt, lets hope they do the same with the new console.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 17, 2011, 09:23:11 AM
The lack of HD isn't really the Wii's problem at the moment. The problem is the weaker processor and far less RAM and internal storage in comparison to the competition. These are the real issues, and even if the Wii had HD if everything else was still the same it wouldn't solve anything. Look at COD Black Ops. That game did in fact come to the Wii, but it strains the Wii hardware, and even then there are quite a few features cut out from the Wii version (Kill cams, 18 players, etc) that are present on the other platforms. It wasn't because Treyarch wanted to rip Wii users off, it was just that the Wii lacked the RAM and power to do it. Its as simple as that.
HD is just mere aesthetics. HD doesn't do a damn thing for improving AI, the number of enemies that can be on the screen simultaneously, and so on and so forth.
I think Nintendo is pretty much always going to be one generation behind from now on (or until it's negligible). So much for multi-platform...
So because ONE system of theirs was behind, you assume that is gonna be the standard for them now?
This generation was the exception. Nintendo had done so poorly with the Gamecube that they needed a console that would sell and reverse their downward spiral that they were in since the N64. Every generation since the NES caused Nintendo to lose a little more market share so something had to be done. Nintendo could have pushed for a system that would have been on par with the competition, but to do so would have resulted in a $400 or more price tag. If Nintendo had done that their console would have struggled for the same exact reason that the PS3 struggled until its price was cut to a more reasonable level. But instead of doing that, they focused on innovative controls and using more modest hardware they were able to bring out a system half the cost of what it would otherwise be, and their strategy was obviously very successful because they went from 3rd place to 1st very quickly.
So considering the dire straits Nintendo was at the time the Wii was a very logical design. But at this point its served its purpose. Now that Nintendo is in 1st place again they no longer need to be the budget choice. That's why I would bet money the Wii 2 will be at least on par with the PS3/360, if not actually even more powerful. Assuming the PS3/360 last another 5 years then that would mean 5 years where Nintendo has the most powerful system on the market.
Anyone who thinks Nintendo is always going to have the weakest console needs to dust off their history books and look at the example of the N64. It was the only (unless you count the Jaguar) 64-bit console in its day and was therefore twice as powerful as the competition. It was a PS3 in its day. The Gamecube was also more powerful than the PS2 and the SNES was more powerful than the Genesis (except in processor speed), so that's why the Wii having weaker hardware is the exception and not the rule. But like I said considering the circumstances Nintendo was facing it was necessary that they did what they did by choosing affordable hardware instead of powerful hardware.
If Nintendo had done what Ian and some others here are saying they should have done then its likely they would still be in 3rd place (or even worse).
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Scatt-Man on March 17, 2011, 11:37:38 AM
From kiddie to cheap.
I'm thinking Nintendo's first taste of the casual buzz came with the introduction of Nintendogs, and they've been clamouring for more of that crowd ever since. It's clear they still want to entice that same market with the 3DS, seeing as Nintendogs is a launch title. I find it all a little confusing, seeing as the 3DS' price isn't exactly cheap...maybe even a bit too expensive, certainly for the non-enthusiasts.
I can't wait to get my dirty hands on this 3DS! A lot of the media out there has me pretty underwhelmed, and I'm hoping that that's due to the images having to be blown up on the intertubes or something. After all of that "IT LOOKS LIKE AN EXBAWKS!" before the reveal, to now having that "We've had to compromise to get the game on a Nintendo platform" we've all hated hearing throughout the Wii's lifespan. Yeah, It's not so much that I care about moving backgrounds in a Street Fighter game, but damnit... :'(
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 17, 2011, 11:40:47 AM
The Wii sold like gangbusters at $250, so the casual market is willing to spend that much (I know consoles and handhelds are different outside of Japan, but they still were willing).
I think many of the 3DS games look great, I am not excited about Steel Diver or Bust-A-Move Universe (among others); but I think many of the games look great even in 2D and can't wait to see them in 3D.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 17, 2011, 01:25:16 PM
Since Nintendo held back this gen, to catch up they would have to go beyond a normal jump. My concern would be if they are willing to make that kind of jump. Plus they don't know what Sony and MS will do. They have to either wait them out or guess what level they will go to and try to go to something similar.
It isn't just the hardware though, it can also be the experience. Nintendo didn't go online with the Gamecube. Well that inexperience is clearly reflected in the Wii. They have probably the weakest online service of the three and I don't think it's a coincedence that they have years less of experience. They ran into storage problems for example. I doubt that will happen next gen because they learned about it this gen. But everyone else learned about it a gen before. If Nintendo had more experience with online gaming they would have realized the potential problems of that limitation.
Nintendo has not developed games that have really pushed hardware to its limits in a long time. Hell, they don't even seem to push the Wii hardware. So now we would like them to design significantly more powerful hardware but they have no experience with working with hardware like that. Pushing the envelope out of hardware is not something they've done for a long time. Thus they might make questionable designs due to inexperience. There might be some sort of programming trick that everyone uses that Nintendo is completely oblivious to and then they end up designing hardware that doesn't allow for it. I remember the Sega Saturn apparently used rectangular polygons when the industry standard was triangular polygons. In terms of specs the Saturn could pump out polygons but Sega goofed in being unaware of the industry standards. Nintendo has not made HD games so they run the risk of being ignorant of important things.
There could also be some problem that everyone works around but no one likes and Sony and MS address that with their next hardware. But Nintendo, being inexperienced, has that same problem in their new hardware. The Unreal Engine is something everyone uses these days. It has to work on the Wii 2. If it doesn't Nintendo going nutso with specs won't matter. Nintendo has to KNOW about this engine and know how to accomodate for it.
Nintendo has been more or less isolated from the rest of the industry for the last five years. What we're really asking for is for them to join back in. To do so when they're a generation behind will be very difficult. They have to really pay attention to what they're doing, which is something Nintendo hasn't done with hardware design since the SNES. Can I really trust the Nintendo that was so out of touch they did not anticipate people running out of storage space?
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 17, 2011, 01:56:50 PM
That is why everyone is hopeful that Nintendo's stance on working with 3rd parties during Hardware Development is something that carries over from the 3DS. We are hoping for an adequate storage solution, a more than sufficient amount of RAM and processing power, updateable features set that can run across all games and enough inputs to satisfy the majority of dev and pubs (like 4 useable face buttons [+ @: #], Vitality sensor built into the controller, motion camera, etc etc.) so that the only possible excuses are from those that have a grudge (Epic) or just lack imagination.
As for the rest of what was said I'll just quote myself with a few edits. :quote... sorta: Tech-wise Nintendo may be behind a gen (Wii is basically a GC 1.5), but at the same time I think Xbox360 & PS3 may have jumped a little too far ahead (about 1/2 a gen ahead) considering the starting price of their launch consoles and also the fact that they were both taking a loss on hardware, not only from the start, but up until the 3rd or 4th year since release.
We should be on the verge of a new generation end of this year and PS360.5 is where we should naturally be with the affordable unified hardware structure. That is where I think Nintendo will land with the upcoming Wii2, somewhere ahead of PS360, but only in an Xbox over PS2 kind of way, not and PS360 over Wii kinda way.
So I think Nintendo may get back on the curve this upcoming gen, but Sony & MS will probably still be atleast a 1/2 gen ahead and their prices will reflect that. They will push for tech that is still priced too high, hoping for systems that become profitable 3-4 years down the line instead of hardware that is affordable on the day of release. This will make their new systems look very capable next to games on their PC counterparts, but given the cost of developing those type of graphics on a console, we will run into the same issue they had this gen with rising cost, closing doors, increased profit lines & the added problem of diminishing returns.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: MegaByte on March 17, 2011, 02:39:56 PM
That's actually why I'm worried that Nintendo went with a graphics solution for 3DS that doesn't support OpenGL ES 2.0, the current industry standard that all other modern mobile platforms support. Instead, they have a proprietary shader system, which bit them in the ass on GameCube and Wii. Granted, it's a lot better than the system used on those consoles, but it still makes for extra work.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 17, 2011, 04:36:06 PM
Quote
That's actually why I'm worried that Nintendo went with a graphics solution for 3DS that doesn't support OpenGL ES 2.0, the current industry standard that all other modern mobile platforms support. Instead, they have a proprietary shader system, which bit them in the ass on GameCube and Wii. Granted, it's a lot better than the system used on those consoles, but it still makes for extra work.
Nintendo probably went with that shader because that's what THEY are used to. That's the problem. When the Wii was revealed that talked about how easy it was to develop for because it used the same architecture as the Gamecube. Well that's all fine in bizarro world where the Gamecube was a huge success but in the real world this was of significance to no one except Nintendo. If Nintendo was truly interested in attracting third party support they would have to be willing to potentially make things more difficult for themselves if it would make things easier for everyone else. For them to do such a thing would require a significant change in their attitude.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 17, 2011, 05:32:00 PM
Here is a reason for Nintendo to get with the program and make sure their hardware is compliant with Dev/Pub needs and wants.
http://www.gaming-age.com/news/2011/3/17-29
Quote
Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment today announced a long-term studio-wide license agreement with Epic Games to use the award-winning Unreal Engine 3.
The development software will be available for any team developing a Warner-published game across PC, console and mobile platforms and, through 2014, will be the exclusive game engine used on projects being developed by Rocksteady Studios who are currently working on Batman: Arkham City and developed the critically acclaimed hit Batman: Arkham Asylum for WBIE/DC Entertainment, and NetherRealm Studios, the team behind award-winning Mortal Kombat franchise for WBIE.
If this is a trend that starts to catch on, then Publishers will be streamlining by using 1 middleware across all studios so that if a project gets shifted around, everyone will be up to speed on the dev tools. If your hardware is not compatible, then your hardware will likely not be a priority or just not supported.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 17, 2011, 05:39:07 PM
I don't like the idea of one middleware engine being used so much, it starts screaming monopoly to me.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: broodwars on March 17, 2011, 05:46:13 PM
I don't like the idea of one middleware engine being used so much, it starts screaming monopoly to me.
Or maybe it's just a tool that's easy to use and most developers know how to program for, making it a good general-use platform. It's not like there aren't other engines out there, and with rising development costs developers probably feel the need to stick with what they know how to use. People scream "monopoly" way too easily, especially since the Unreal Engine has issues that make it unfavorable for all game types (such as texture draw-in issues, save seemingly for Bulletstorm).
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 17, 2011, 06:06:11 PM
Nintendo has not made HD games so they run the risk of being ignorant of important things.
How is HD an important thing?
As for everything else you said in your post: Nintendo doesn't need experience in all that stuff. Nintendo contracts companies like IBM and Nvidia and so on to manufacture the various chips and components. Nintendo makes the hardware, but they do not make the various individual components that make up that hardware. Other companies do, and they are the ones who have the know how. You don't have to know squat as long as you have the money to hire someone who does.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 17, 2011, 06:21:24 PM
You can't forget that Nintendo tells them what specification to aim for and what price points it needs to meet.
Specs to meet HD specifications just wasn't a priority to Nintendo so those are not specs that we got.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 17, 2011, 07:16:24 PM
Quote
How is HD an important thing?
I mostly mean "HD" in the general buzzword term to describe today's cutting edge videogame hardware. It's important to not have glorified last gen hardware again obviously.
But realistically HDTV support is absolute necessary today. They don't even sell TVs without it anymore. If they ignored that it would be like if they released the N64 and it only supported coaxial output.
Regarding that middleware "monopoly" my concern would be more that too many games would look the same. That would be kind of lame. But with development costs as high as they are having something to cut down on development like that would probably have a more positive effect. But it isn't a monopoly if people can create their own graphics engines if they wish.
Realistically this is how it works in the software industry. There are all sorts of development tools that developers use just to be efficient. A couple of those tools become really popular and successful. They don't have a monopoly but if you can make the software you want to make with those tools it just financially makes sense to use them. Re-inventing the wheel every time isn't cost effective.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 17, 2011, 07:19:43 PM
I don't think most consumers even care about HD (I certainly don't). If its there, fine; if its not, meh. It doesn't have any impact on the quality of the gameplay itself. Now, things like A.I. and number of enemies allowable on screen and things like that which demand RAM and processing power, now that's something that does impact gameplay and it is something I care about. That is something I think the Wii's successor will address and I believe that it will. I'm sure HD support will come at the same time.
In 2006 when the Wii first launched the HD age was just starting and few people had HD tvs at the time. Heck, I wonder if the majority of consumers even have HD tvs now. Standard TVs can last for decades, and there are many people who would only buy a new TV if their old one died. Its not like a large screen tv is cheap. If someone already owns a large screen standard definition TV they may not want to spend $3,000 on a new HD one. To many people the size of the screen is probably more important than its resolution.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 17, 2011, 10:11:28 PM
SDTVs no longer exist. Everyone cares about HD now, and HD was booming when the Wii was launched. It wasn't nearly at the state that it is now, but it was undoubtedly expanding rapidly, since SDTVs were no longer being manufactured (at least not on a grand scale) in 2006 either. There's no need to spend $3000 on a new TV either, you can get an amazing television with a huge screen (say, 50") for like $800 now.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Oblivion on March 17, 2011, 10:25:52 PM
Uh, yes they do. I just bought one at my local Kmart.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ymeegod on March 18, 2011, 12:18:47 AM
Odd, everyone considers the PSP a failure yet when you do it be numbers it's actually more successful than I don't know--the N64, Gamecube, ect. In face it sold more than those two combined. It's at 66 million units sold which is more than Xbox 360 and the PS3. Sure the DS outsells it nearly 2.5 to 1 but it's still sold a bucket of units.
What kills the PSP is my opinion was Sony couldn't produce enough quality hits thoughout the year--there's maybe two worthwhile titles thoughout the year. NGP fixes is by having similar hardware kits to the PS3 which allows developers to cut down developement time considerable so I there's shouldn't be "droughts" this time around.
As for pricing, Sony still haven't announced a price structure yet so it might be lower than everyone predicts but even if you go with the $400 est price tag it's still going to sell highly thoughout Japan during the first year or so and then it's going drop just like every system. Nintendo's could have easily priced the 3DS higher considering what it's reselling for now on Ebay and whatnot. There's so many early adopters that both Sony and Nintendo will not be able to meet demand anyhow.
The handheld market is by far the largest gaming market especially in Japan and I think it's going actually increase as we move forward. The only thing I think Sony messed up on was the what PSP phone--they should just shitcan that altogether and add a smart phone option to NGP.
Would I buy a $500 NGP phone? Hell yeah, right now I'm looking at a Droid without a contract at $400. Think about it, you'll get all the use as a smart phone but a handheld gaming unit? Score.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 18, 2011, 01:02:34 AM
I believe the N64 & GC were more profitable though (I think, but I have no numbers to back that up nor did I look for them).
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 18, 2011, 10:45:52 AM
PSP hardware may sell; PSP software is a different story.
The N64 had a lot of multi-million selling game titles that are still remembered fondly today. All the PSP has is Monster Hunter and watered down ports. The fact of the matter is many people who bought a PSP only did so because of how easy the system is to mod. One can hack it and use it to pirate games without any hardware modifications whatsoever. That's what makes the hardware appealing to own for some, but the software sales don't match up.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 18, 2011, 11:32:26 AM
"With PSP we went on the assumption that if we took a successful home console game experience and applied it wholesale to a portable device, that that was a great route to success,” he says.
"What we learnt in the course of the PSP is that consumers want a different experience. Even if it is the same franchise. That was a huge piece of learning that really informed the design of NGP. Take the best of the console experience but give people something that is different that they can only get with that device, on-the-go.”
More stuff from SCEE's Andrew House (I might add more quotes) http://www.mcvuk.com/features/894/INTERVIEW-Andrew-House
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 18, 2011, 01:51:23 PM
SDTVs no longer exist. Everyone cares about HD now, and HD was booming when the Wii was launched. It wasn't nearly at the state that it is now, but it was undoubtedly expanding rapidly, since SDTVs were no longer being manufactured (at least not on a grand scale) in 2006 either. There's no need to spend $3000 on a new TV either, you can get an amazing television with a huge screen (say, 50") for like $800 now.
Even in 2006 SDTV's were very common. Now though it is indeed hard to find one in most retail stores.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 18, 2011, 04:17:26 PM
It may be hard to buy a new SD TV, but like I said they tend to last for decades so many people don't have an immediate need to buy a new TV. When they do buy a new TV odds are its going to be HD, but who knows how long it will take before that happens?
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Shaymin on March 18, 2011, 04:56:15 PM
I've had the same 27" CRT in my apartment since 2002. I don't intend to replace it any time soon, largely due to financial reasons + the fact that I mainly use it for Wii play at this point.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 18, 2011, 05:12:18 PM
When I bought my HDTV in 2008, I basically needed to. My old TV was a crappy 14 inch RCA TV that I had since 1994.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 18, 2011, 06:02:59 PM
Older stuff follows more simplistic design and therefore tends to last longer than newer stuff. Do you want something with more bells and whistles, or do you want something that will last for the long haul?
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 18, 2011, 06:19:04 PM
Quote
It may be hard to buy a new SD TV, but like I said they tend to last for decades so many people don't have an immediate need to buy a new TV. When they do buy a new TV odds are its going to be HD, but who knows how long it will take before that happens?
You could have made the same argument for the SNES. "Why does it need to support A/V cables when most people still have TV's that can only handle coaxial and will continue to have this for years?" It just doesn't make sense to completely ignore the TV standards available in stores right now. It isn't like the PS3 and Xbox 360 ONLY work on HDTVs. I don't have an HDTV so I hook my PS3 up with standard A/V cables. All this really is is an option.
We got the same sort of luddite argument with the Gamecube and online gaming. "Well there are a lot of people that still don't have access to fast internet." Well why should those of us who do have it, which is everybody not living the sticks, not be given the option? It wasn't like if Mario Kart was online everyone without fast internet could get nothing from the game. But instead we ALL were forced to go without. Much like online with the Gamecube the timing of the systems release was at a crossroads. It was at the time where the new technology wasn't quite widespread but it was clearly going to become the standard in the next few years well within the life time of the system.
I knew when the Wii launched that HDTV was here to stay. It was like Nintendo was six months off of SDTVs disappearing from the market place. They weren't thinking about the future at all. It was like, right now today, we don't need this, two years from now be damned.
Their decision to stay put, plus the decision to not go with online gaming on the Gamecube, is what ultimately creates the general fear that the Wii 2 will remain a generation behind. The Wii isn't truly a one-off. The Cube might have had up-to-date specs but their refusal to go online was one generation behind. The N64 is a pretty good behind-the-times console too. For three consoles in a row Nintendo has been incredibly conservative to the point where their decisions came across as incredibly short sighted and out-of-touch. The Wii is very much a product of its time in a bad restrictive way where it was something that reflected that exact moment but not even a year later. The Wii was designed for 2006 and maybe 2007 but certainly not 2009 and beyond. If we follow this trend then the Wii 2 will be a product of 2012 specifically for 2012 but ill-suited for 2014. Nintendo has to make something for something for 2016 and release it 2012.
And the funny thing is that back at the start with the NES, Nintendo specifically wanted something cutting edge that could last for years. If today's Nintendo designed the NES it would have been the Atari 7800.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 18, 2011, 06:27:06 PM
It isn't like the PS3 and Xbox 360 ONLY work on HDTVs.
That also works the other way around as well. Its not like the Wii ONLY works on SDTVs. You can plug a Wii into any HDTV and it will work just fine. It isn't incompatible.
Their decision to stay put, plus the decision to not go with online gaming on the Gamecube, is what ultimately creates the general fear that the Wii 2 will remain a generation behind. The Wii isn't truly a one-off. The Cube might have had up-to-date specs but their refusal to go online was one generation behind.
What are you talking about? Nintendo released an official LAN adapter and modem for the Gamecube that enabled online play. This was an official Nintendo product. Granted, there was only one game which supported online, but the option was there at least. That means the Gamecube was really no different than the PS2 in terms of online capability. Now support is a different story, but you need to blame the third parties for that becasue they had the option of having online games on the GC but they just refused to support it. Hell, they refused to support the GC with offline games also for the most part... How the hell is that Nintendo's fault?
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 18, 2011, 06:31:03 PM
I don't have an HDTV so I hook my PS3 up with standard A/V cables.
Then even if the Wii did have HD support you would see no difference with it whatsoever, so why do you care?
Because sometimes some people just can't be happy unless they have something to bitch about.
and I include myself in that statement.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: MegaByte on March 18, 2011, 06:35:15 PM
What's worse is that they don't mandate 480p output compatibility, which means that several games don't work on my monitor. And the fact that they removed digital AV that even the GameCube had, necessitating more expensive converters with lower quality output.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Kytim89 on March 18, 2011, 08:38:38 PM
Older stuff follows more simplistic design and therefore tends to last longer than newer stuff. Do you want something with more bells and whistles, or do you want something that will last for the long haul?
My 1986 Chvy Cavalier and 1985 Chevy Blazer are still going strong.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: ymeegod on March 19, 2011, 01:55:39 AM
"The N64 had a lot of multi-million selling game titles that are still remembered fondly today. All the PSP has is Monster Hunter and watered down ports. The fact of the matter is many people who bought a PSP only did so because of how easy the system is to mod. One can hack it and use it to pirate games without any hardware modifications whatsoever. That's what makes the hardware appealing to own for some, but the software sales don't match up"
LOL, in a way you countered your own agruement? The reason the PSP software sales are so low is the same damn reason the DC was--priating. The DS has the same issue especially stateside. Every event I attend too I find less and less people owning any bit of software, and one reason why mature rated games on the WII don't sell.
Still going by the charts, N64 had 50 games that sold a million, right now the PSP has 42 games that sold a million (and that doesn't count PSN downloads). I wouldn't be surprised to see it surpass the N64 by the end of this year.
Nintendo's always made money and yeah it's profits are high but the PSP was still in the green meaning it's still making a profit hense NGP. By your standards there can only be one success but in my opinion Sony entered the market with the PSP with 0 shares of the market and Nintendo donimated it, now it grabbed 30%. Clearly nintendo noticed and why we're getting the 3ds so soon. Nintendo wants it's pie all to themshevles.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 19, 2011, 12:35:04 PM
You also have to keep in mind that the market is a lot larger now than it was when the N64 was around. There are a lot more gamers today than there were in 1996. It is easier for a game to be a million seller today than it was back then.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: fiendcode on March 19, 2011, 03:15:21 PM
Still going by the charts, N64 had 50 games that sold a million, right now the PSP has 42 games that sold a million (and that doesn't count PSN downloads). I wouldn't be surprised to see it surpass the N64 by the end of this year.
What "charts" exactly are you using for these figures? Because those numbers seem extremely suspect imo, PSP software sales are in the toilet in America and Europe (NPD said only one PSP game passed 200k for all of 2010 in the US for example) and in Japan the only million sellers are all Monster Hunter games. Even so, I can't think of 9+ potential million sellers looking at PSP's future lineup, FF Type 0 is probably the only thing left that can manage it worldwide.
A more relevant comparison though might be total sales (direct from Nintendo and Sony)...
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: ymeegod on March 20, 2011, 03:41:05 AM
I didn't state 9 new games, there's a couple of games that are closing in on the one million mark milestone some might be over since nobody but the publisher knows the amount of downloads the gotten. For example if you take in GoW Ghost Spartan and MGS Peace Walker? The phyical copies only sold 1/2 million but how many downloaded the game through PSN? The did a reader survey and if that's something to go by 66% downloaded the game.
Pretty sure that game broke over a million ( Konami stated 1.68 million sales for the MGS series for the last year so you'll have to subtract MGS4 sales as well as those few other PSP titles but someone figured it to be 1.1-1.2 million with the PSN numbers).
But yeah, during the last couple of years the sales has slipped stateside, one of it has to do with droughts which is similar to the N64. People got fed up with them and switched so the user base decreased, but a vast amount of sales was lost due to privacy.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: nickmitch on March 21, 2011, 12:30:52 AM
Question: Does the "2,500 titles" part include UMD movies?
Even if it does, there are only like what, 30-50 UMD movies? Most of them came out in 2005-2006 with only a small handful in years following that.
I doubt there have been much (if any) UMD releases in the last 3 years, but I would be curious to know. It would be an interesting piece of trivia to know what the last UMD movie was and when it was released.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Enner on March 21, 2011, 04:07:00 AM
I doubt there have been much (if any) UMD releases in the last 3 years, but I would be curious to know. It would be an interesting piece of trivia to know what the last UMD movie was and when it was released.
Wikipedia reads: The Karate Kid on 2010-06-11 by Overbrook Entertainment
http://www.amazon.com/Sherlock-Holmes-UMD-Robert-Downey/dp/B003TIBPNG/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1300694793&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Sherlock-Holmes-UMD-Robert-Downey/dp/B003TIBPNG/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1300694793&sr=1-1) A quick search on Amazon returns a 2010-06-21 release of Sherlock Holmes.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: fiendcode on March 23, 2011, 04:59:06 PM
I didn't state 9 new games, there's a couple of games that are closing in on the one million mark milestone some might be over since nobody but the publisher knows the amount of downloads the gotten. For example if you take in GoW Ghost Spartan and MGS Peace Walker? The phyical copies only sold 1/2 million but how many downloaded the game through PSN? The did a reader survey and if that's something to go by 66% downloaded the game.
Pretty sure that game broke over a million ( Konami stated 1.68 million sales for the MGS series for the last year so you'll have to subtract MGS4 sales as well as those few other PSP titles but someone figured it to be 1.1-1.2 million with the PSN numbers).
But yeah, during the last couple of years the sales has slipped stateside, one of it has to do with droughts which is similar to the N64. People got fed up with them and switched so the user base decreased, but a vast amount of sales was lost due to privacy.
Yeah, Peace Walker should probably be somewhere just over a million. It did about 800k in Japan alone, and "under 200,000" in the US. Unfortunately Konami expected it to sell 2 million, had a Monster Hunter tie-in and even gave it this weird "it's really MGS5" PR push last second, so it's not exactly a success all things considered.
GOW Ghost of Sparta failed to crack 200k in the US last year though, and the US is by a gigantic margin GOW's biggest market. There's pretty much no hope it'll ever sell a million units, at least not in PSP's lifetime.
I think you're vastly overestimating PSN sales rates though. PSP Go flopped harder than any hardware release in recent memory, and the rates of PSN purchases in Japan are said to be about 10:1 in favor of retail by Famitsu (and Japan's the one market where PSP's actually healthy). If we're counting digital sales though, shouldn't we also add Virtual Console into N64's favor? Probably won't change things all that much, but that also might've pushed a few games over a million there (like Ogre Battle 64 or Sin & Punishment). Same thing with iQue actually, they're all the same game file, even if they're distributed differently (like PSP/PSN).
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: ymeegod on March 24, 2011, 12:35:02 AM
You don't need a PSP GO to access PSN. You can buy 16+GB cards and add them to any PSP and there's been plenty of new reasons why it's better. I downloaded 4 titles last year alone mostly because of the killer sales PSN had on those ttitles. $40 in a retail store or buy it digital for half? Yeah I miss out of resales (though I never do resell games) and a manual but instead of one game I get two :0. It's similar to Steam. Alot of PC sales are made over the net.
NPD stated this is their report.
S&P and Ogre Battle 64 break a million? S&P sold less than 100K on the N64 in Japan (never sold stateside) and on the VC estimates at a little over 100K. That's only a quarter million. Ogre battle 64 sold a bit better at 300-400k but it's VC sales (just released last year) are low. The list I saw had top 50 WII Ware/VC sales and it didn't make the list so it's below the 10k mark. There's a remake on the PSP that's about to be released but I'm not sure if you can combine the two sales.
I guess you can combine the sales of VC if you wanted to but they don't really change much. The top dogs, SMB3 for example already sold a bucket load and made another million sales, but a cult hit like S&P won't be booming any type of success.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: ymeegod on March 24, 2011, 12:38:21 AM
Here's the list I just copied and paste: Title 8/23/2010 10/26/2009 9/12/2008 Super Mario Bros 3 608,727 441,911 212,995 Super Mario Bros 487,237 380,379 209,441 Super Mario World 306,504 252,331 151,881 Super Mario 64 261,018 215,834 131,024 Mario Kart 64 257,038 223,316 146,219 Legend of Zelda 211,476 169,326 100,509 Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 199,046 164,262 97,498 Super Mario Bros 2 185,777 140,438 79,868 Punch-Out!! 169,208 138,304 78,235 Paper Mario 153,542 130,285 85,756 Kirby's Adventure 149,362 121,472 82,935 Donkey Kong Country 144,412 118,792 70,989 Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 142,435 122,300 80,520 Starfox 64 126,901 112,508 77,917 Donkey Kong 120,453 93,091 51,612 Pac-Man 114,621 83,184 40,745 Super Metroid 102,214 89,197 62,479 Sonic the Hedgehog 94,564 80,279 55,361 Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels 92,651 78,286 52,558 Super Mario RPG 87,723 66,505 N/A Pokemon Snap 80,019 70,183 49,139 Kirby 64 72,221 61,304 37,029 Metroid 70,045 56,243 36,909 Excitebike 67,636 56,404 N/A Kid Icarus 67,307 59,886 44,119 Galaga 65,196 49,413 26,684 Yoshi's Story 63,991 52,417 33,107 Zelda 2: Adventure of Link 60,792 48,295 29,913 Mario Bros 60,655 59,052 N/A Donkey Kong Country 2 59,496 50,205 31,569 Sonic the Hedgehog 2 57,571 48,159 30,749 Tecmo Bowl 54,056 44,693 24,587 Sonic the Hedgehog 3 52,867 43,217 26,402 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 52,701 45,895 N/A Gunstar Heroes 49,800 46,668 36,894 Bomberman '93 49,212 46,146 34,916 Bubble Bobble 48,006 39,536 23,366 Super Castlevania 4 46,346 41,572 30,502 Castlevania 45,400 36,644 N/A Contra 3 43,545 38,769 26,072 Sin and Punishment 42,864 39,023 29,042 Ninja Gaiden 41,966 37,052 26,040 Street Fighter II: World Warrior 38,515 35,761 26,625 Street Fighter II: Turbo 34,762 31,293 21,136 Toe Jam and Earl 34,332 30,788 21,586 Donkey Kong Country 3 34,199 27,684 15,318 Super Smash Bros 32,900 N/A N/A Sim City 31,388 28,192 19,368 Super C 29,651 24,371 N/A Super Street Fighter II 28,280 24,512 N/A F-Zero X 27,755 24,795 17,603 Bonk's Adventure 27,197 N/A N/A Wave Race 64 26,695 24,189 N/A Harvest Moon 24,591 21,409 14,124 Golden Axe 24,282 22,191 N/A F-Zero 23,903 N/A N/A Castlevania II: Simon's Quest 23,537 19,550 N/A Streets of Rage 2 23,265 20,750 14,597 Streets of Rage 20,303 18,401 N/A Breath of Fire 2 19,631 17,688 11,940 Wario's Woods 19,389 16,983 N/A Actraiser 18,462 16,963 12,651 StarTropics 17,121 14,844 N/A Super Ghouls 'n' Ghosts 17,099 15,300 N/A Shining Force 16,710 15,100 10,664 Streets of Rage III 14,275 12,662 N/A Pokemon Puzzle League 12,521 9,492 N/A Military Madness 9,418 8,744 N/A Columns 9,253 N/A N/A Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine 7,372 6,594 N/A
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: fiendcode on March 24, 2011, 08:48:02 AM
You don't need a PSP GO to access PSN. You can buy 16+GB cards and add them to any PSP and there's been plenty of new reasons why it's better. I downloaded 4 titles last year alone mostly because of the killer sales PSN had on those ttitles. $40 in a retail store or buy it digital for half? Yeah I miss out of resales (though I never do resell games) and a manual but instead of one game I get two :0. It's similar to Steam. Alot of PC sales are made over the net.
NPD stated this is their report.
S&P and Ogre Battle 64 break a million? S&P sold less than 100K on the N64 in Japan (never sold stateside) and on the VC estimates at a little over 100K. That's only a quarter million. Ogre battle 64 sold a bit better at 300-400k but it's VC sales (just released last year) are low. The list I saw had top 50 WII Ware/VC sales and it didn't make the list so it's below the 10k mark. There's a remake on the PSP that's about to be released but I'm not sure if you can combine the two sales.
I guess you can combine the sales of VC if you wanted to but they don't really change much. The top dogs, SMB3 for example already sold a bucket load and made another million sales, but a cult hit like S&P won't be booming any type of success.
I'm not saying only Go could access PSN, but I'm saying it's utter failure as a PSN only device, sort of helps reinforce that the service likely isn't pushing huge numbers and isn't a huge draw. PSN pricepoints are usually higher than retail too, and pretty much all new PSP games range from $29-34 anyway (the only new $39 games are usually from Square Enix, and also usually not on PSN simultaneously if at all). And PSN is nowhere as successful as Steam, not comparable in any meaningful way. Even XBL isn't as successful as Steam, and that's easily the high water mark for console DD services.
Also, where are you getting your VC sales lists? Because they look suspiciously like Nintendo Channel figures, which would be only a fraction of actual sales.
S&P's VC sales were so high, that the greenlit the sequel off it (which flopped but, well, whatever). I don't think 100-150k would be near enough for that. S&P was also on iQue (ie: a Chinese only DD N64 in a controller), but we have no numbers at all for that.
The PSP remake is for Tactics Ogre, the 2nd game in the series. Ogre Battle 64 is the 3rd. Ogre Battle was the first, and is also on VC.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Oblivion on March 24, 2011, 10:03:50 AM
Actually, Suare-Enix recently released a couple new PSP games, all priced at $29.99.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 24, 2011, 03:13:00 PM
The price of downloadable games on PSN is indeed much higher than at most retail stores. This is because items on PSN are set at the MSRP and are never ever marked down. So a game with an MSRP of $59.99 on PSN will always be that price, but a disc version of that same game on Amazon will tend to gradually go down in price and also be effected by occasional sales and other discounts.
So that's why PSN prices suck.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Nick DiMola on March 24, 2011, 03:27:44 PM
That's not true at all. Sony has weekly sales. They're not always good, but sometimes things are marked down to ridiculously low prices. Just a week or two ago I finally grabbed both Penny Arcade games for a combined total of $2.99.
Price drops also happen over time. Feel free to check out the PlayStation Blog every week, they post their deals up there on Monday or Tuesday (I can't remember which). We used to cover them on PixlBit, but have since stopped because they were getting to be long stories and reposting the information required a bunch of reformatting.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 24, 2011, 05:36:23 PM
Well, maybe its just because I don't browse the PSN store often enough to notice, but it seems to me the prices are always the same. Even stuff that's been on there for a really long time like the map packs for COD WaW are still the same exact price as they were when they first came out, despite the fact over 2 years has passed. That's just one example. I've even seen stuff go UP in price. For example, about a year ago they used to let you get Mortal Kombat II and SF II off PSN for free, but now they charge you $5 or $10 (I forget which) for them.
Of course, there is a way you can get a discount on some items by signing up for a Plus account, but you have to pay for that and you'd have to buy stuff on there regularly for it to be worthwhile, but even the discount it offers only applies to some things and not everything.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 08, 2011, 02:33:41 PM
Tretton: Platforms Must Have 'Cutting Edge' Tech At Launch To Stay Relevant; "3DS is a Great babysitting Tool" Shots Fired!!!! Sony puts foot in mouth and then blows off it's own toe. Nintendo & MS don't bother to respond since they have consistently stayed more relevant in sales "for a long period"
Quote
Nintendo found big success in recent years by releasing hardware that revolved around new kinds of interfaces instead of pushing technical boundaries. Microsoft's Xbox 360 is on the upswing partly thanks to the new Kinect and a gradual addition of new features to its console over the years.
But Sony Computer Entertainment CEO Jack Tretton told Fortune in a new interview that a game console must launch with the best technology available at the time in order to stay relevant for a long period. And that's been PlayStation's philosophy.
"If you're really going to sustain technology for a decade, you have to be cutting edge when you launch a platform," he said.
"Here we are four years into the PlayStation 3, and it's just hitting its stride," he said, echoing another recent interview. "We'll enjoy a long downhill roll behind it because the technology that was so cutting edge in 2006 is extremely relevant today and is conspicuously absent in our competition."
The PS3 launched in 2006, sporting a complex Cell processor, an advanced RSX GPU co-developed by Sony and Nvidia, a standard hard drive, Blu-ray playback, Bluetooth connectivity, built-in wi-fi and HDMI support.
The build costs were high -- estimates found that Sony was selling at a loss of over $300 for the 20GB launch model, which sold for $499. The 60GB model sold for $600 at a reported loss of around $240 at launch.
Since then, Sony has used its expertise in electronics manufacturing to gradually cut costs, and only last year did reports emerge that the company is no longer taking a hit on every console sold. To Tretton, that investment is paying off in the long run.
"[Microsoft and Nintendo] are starting to run out of steam now in terms of continuing to be relevant in 2011 and beyond," Tretton said. "I mean, you've gotta be kidding me. Why would I buy a gaming system without a hard drive in it? How does this thing scale? Motion gaming is cute, but if I can only wave my arms six inches, how does this really feel like I'm doing true accurate motion gaming?"
Sony appears to be once again following its cutting-edge tech philosophy with the PSP successor, the codenamed Next Generation Portable. The NGP will have high-end features, including 3G and wi-fi support, a five-inch multi-touch OLED display, a multi-touch pad on the back, dual analog sticks, flash card support for software, motion sensors, built-in GPS and a four-core CPU, among other features.
At least one analyst expects the NGP to cost "at least" $299 in the U.S. When it launches later this year, it will go head-to-head against Nintendo's $250 3DS. Tretton previously said that price doesn't "make or kill a platform" -- the challenge is providing value for consumers.
Tretton also called Nintendo's market-leading handheld consoles a "great babysitting tool," adding that "no self-respecting 20-something is going to be sitting on an airplane with one of those. He's too old for that."
Shots have been fired from the bell tower, but fortunately no one injured. It's good to see Sony back on the offensive though. It' always entertaining for the last place competitor to talk as if they run the game, especially after losing all their profits from the last generation and have absolutely no chance of making that back even if they keep the PS3 as primary till 2016. So if they plan on packing all they can into the NGP and then selling it at a loss because that is the "Playstation's Philosophy", then by all means, please continue on your set path and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
If the amount of losses incurred on the PS3 & PSP haven't taught you anything..... well then keep fucking that chicken Sony. I'm more interested in getting the most value for my buck and I don't care if you go broke trying to give it to me.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Oblivion on April 08, 2011, 02:37:50 PM
Holy...what is this, high school? Sony (or at least Tretton) is acting extremely immature here.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: broodwars on April 08, 2011, 02:40:58 PM
Yeah, seriously. I love my PS3 and I've had a good time with my new PSP, but these statements are just arrogant and stupid. When you're coming out of a console generation with the 3rd place console and the 2nd place handheld, you don't come out of the gate in the next generation talking the same smack and making the same. fracking. mistakes that made you last-place the last generation.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 08, 2011, 02:56:29 PM
Sony has never been known for maturity. Remember the very first Playstation commercials where Crash Bandicoot went over to Nintendo and yelled at them and said Mario was "kiddie"? So this is nothing new. The playstation brand has been immature from the day it was born.
BTW, how old is Jack Tretton? However old he is, he sure isn't acting like it.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Oblivion on April 08, 2011, 02:59:54 PM
He's 50.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 08, 2011, 03:45:14 PM
So he's old enough to be a 20-something's father. How the hell does he know what 20-somethings think?
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ceric on April 08, 2011, 04:07:39 PM
Study Groups and Time travel?
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 08, 2011, 04:38:24 PM
Well he is right that if you want to last 10 years then you need the most cutting edge hardware available at the time. That does make sense. Consoles typically don't last 10 years so in theory you would need something that would take a while to become dated.
Still he is talking some pretty immature smack. And he's picking on MS, too. Does anyone really feel like the PS3 is just way ahead of the Xbox 360 in terms of tech? The Wii is an easy target but the PS3's "superiority" over the Xbox 360 seems like a mere technicality at best.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Shaymin on April 08, 2011, 04:45:31 PM
The lesson is, of course, do not drink from a bottle labeled "Kutaragi Secret Sauce" if visiting Sony HQ.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ceric on April 08, 2011, 04:57:47 PM
Some of the Arcade boards where relevant for a good 10 years and there was one with a fighting game where you swear the hardware was majorly beefed up from the first to last entry on the same hardware. Its sort of interesting what can be done with known hardware with the will to do it.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 08, 2011, 05:31:38 PM
Some of the Arcade boards where relevant for a good 10 years and there was one with a fighting game where you swear the hardware was majorly beefed up from the first to last entry on the same hardware. Its sort of interesting what can be done with known hardware with the will to do it.
The best example of this is probably the SNES. It started out as a 16-bit machine on par with the Genesis, but by 1994 you had games like DKC and Killer Instinct which looked every bit as good as stuff on 32-bit systems. It probably never would have happened if it wasn't for the N64 and how long Nintendo delayed its release. The SNES by necessity had to stand toe to toe with the 32-bit systems and so every last bit of graphics was squeezed out of it in ways that were probably unimaginable when it launched in 1991.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 08, 2011, 07:20:28 PM
Quote
Some of the Arcade boards where relevant for a good 10 years and there was one with a fighting game where you swear the hardware was majorly beefed up from the first to last entry on the same hardware. Its sort of interesting what can be done with known hardware with the will to do it.
You talking about the Neo-Geo? Because the Neo-Geo was cutting edge when it was first released and that's kind of the point. It was a big step up from the Genesis and SNES and that helped it hold its own against the 32/64 bit generation.
If your goal was to last for ten years would it not make sense to be pretty damn cutting edge at launch? Hell, if you look at the Wii 2 thread that's exactly what a fair bit of us are suggesting Nintendo has to do.
No sane person would aim for ten years and then go with something already somewhat out-of-date at the time. It isn't like Nintendo tried to do that with the Game Boy. It just kind of happened. There's no way they were thinking "spinach green visuals will allow this thing to outlast our NES successor" at the time. You never know how long something will last but you sure as hell don't plan for an underpowered system to go on for ten years.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Morari on April 08, 2011, 08:11:35 PM
No sane person would aim for ten years and then go with something already somewhat out-of-date at the time.
No sane person would go for ten years, period.
Seriously, why go for broke and lose out on profits for most of a generation so that you can hold out for 2? Meanwhile Nintendo is making money this generation and they'll be making money during the next one too.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: oohhboy on April 08, 2011, 08:26:39 PM
Wow, I miss Ken Kutaragi now. When he talked **** at least it was funny, you know like laughing at insane ramblings, but Tretton is just being an Asshole. I am sure to look forward to 10 years of this rubbish.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Guitar Smasher on April 08, 2011, 09:45:18 PM
I noticed he didn't once mention "games" as a reason for why a system would be successful. That's, in my opinion, more embarrassing than calling the DS a babysitting device.
Wait, you PS3 owners, did you actually buy your system for the hard-drive? Maybe I'm the one who's out of touch...
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ceric on April 08, 2011, 11:19:31 PM
Honestly bought mine to keep the PS2 backward compatibility and Blu-Ray. I think now more than ever getting to 10 years will be easier than before. It will be a while before we can make the true next leap. Though smell would be an interesting realm to go in now that I think of it.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on April 09, 2011, 04:32:35 PM
I could see the console market becoming like the handheld one, with revisions rather than full on new systems replacing the older ones.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Razorkid on April 09, 2011, 08:31:40 PM
Honestly bought mine to keep the PS2 backward compatibility and Blu-Ray. I think now more than ever getting to 10 years will be easier than before. It will be a while before we can make the true next leap. Though smell would be an interesting realm to go in now that I think of it.
I also bought a PS3 for BC purposes and Blu-ray back in '07. Honestly, I've only owned like 10 PS3 games, and they were wonderful (GTA IV excluded). But I own 20+ games for my Wii adn still have about 5 more that I want to pick up for my backlog to play. Maybe the Wii just offered more unique experiences that I couldn't enjoy on my PC than the PS3, but software is the leading determinant of a system's success.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: leahsdad on April 10, 2011, 05:02:09 AM
Yeah, I've have to admit that I basically "left" Nintendo after the N64, and instead of the GC I bought a PS2. The result? I played a bunch of forgettable games and immediately told myself "Okay, next console must be a Nintendo one."
I've heard a lot of complaints about not having enough games on the Wii to play, and compaints about GC "New Play Control" ports. To be honest, I love those ports, and they basically make up for not having enough new games. In case you didn't know, the GC was not popular, and a lot of people (like me) didn't buy it. Which means we didn't get to play the Prime games, Pikmin, Jungle Beat, Sunshine, Windwaker, etc....and getting to play those in widescreen on the Wii is pretty good.
Now, I have huge stack of Wii games gathering dust because I'm head deep into the 3DS, but that's another story.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stratos on April 10, 2011, 06:53:59 AM
I have a huge stack of unplayed Wii games I got for cheap off of Amazon. But oddly enough I walk over to the shelf and don't feel like playing half of them now. I seem to be longing for more traditional style games versus the quirky experimental motion games.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 23, 2011, 12:56:09 PM
Here is something Sony hasn't learned that Nintendo keeps trying to teach them. How to: Make a Profit 101
Sony on Monday changed its earnings estimate for the year to March 2011 to a net loss of 260 billion yen ($3.2 billion) from a profit of 70 billion, in the company's first indication of the financial impact of the devastating March earthquake and tsunami.
The company maintained its estimate of an operating profit of 200 billion yen, which compares with analysts' consensus of 197 billion yen, according to a SmartEstimate by ThomsonReuters I/B/E/S. SmartEstimates place additional weight on recent forecasts by top-rated analysts.
OUCH!!!
How much longer can Sony afford to bleed like this? NGP & PS3.5 better be a smashing success and extremely profitable out the gate.
Sony has posted a Y260bn ($3.18bn) net loss for the year ended March 31 due to the impact of Japan’s quake and tsunami and the hacker attacks that forced it to shut down its PlayStation Network, the Japanese electronics company revealed in a preliminary earnings statement Monday.
The company had called a news conference on Monday for 5.30pm local time to announce the revision. Companies listed on the Tokyo Stock Exchange are required to inform investors if they believe they will miss earnings targets by 30 per cent or more.
Sony was scheduled to report fourth-quarter and full-year results on Thursday. Analysts had been expecting a Y76bn profit and the company had forecast net income of Y70bn.
Last week Sir Howard Stringer, chief executive, acknowledged that Sony would lose money and customers as a result of the theft of customer information by the hackers, though he did not say how much.
Names, addresses and network passwords belonging to 100m people, including all PSN users, were stolen in the attack.
Looks like Anonymous was successful in hitting Sony where it hurts most. The Pockets and the Headlines. (edit: wait a second... when did the hacker attacks happen again? wasn't that in April? how would that affect Sony's earning ending March 31st 2011?)
edit 2: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/10revision_sonypre.pdf (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/10revision_sonypre.pdf) Impact of earthquake on operating income in FY 2011 = 17 billion Yen ($207 million) Impact of earthquake on operating income for FY 2012 = 150 billion Yen ($1.83 billion)
Impact of PSN hacks on operating income for FY 2012 = 14 billion Yen ($171 million)
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 23, 2011, 07:29:57 PM
I hope we'll see a far less arrogant and more humble Sony emerge from all this. A good start would be for them to drop that Kevin Butler asshole. If you look up arrogant in the dictionary, you'd probably see a picture of him. He's the mascot of the company and the way he behaves represents the company as a whole.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 23, 2011, 07:36:53 PM
I actually like the Kevin Butler ads. The company needs to stop behaving in the same way he does in them, though.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: lolmonade on May 23, 2011, 07:44:08 PM
I actually like the Kevin Butler ads. The company needs to stop behaving in the same way he does in them, though.
This.
If you don't care for that type of humor, that's fine. But it's sure as hell better than this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzyWAbNmcdw&feature=related)or this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqkNPcUMffU)
Nothing beats the N64 Smash Bros commercial though.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 23, 2011, 08:00:40 PM
I suppose Kevin Butler is a step up from those earlier demonic/satanic/disturbing PS3 commercials. Of course that isn't saying much.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: oohhboy on May 23, 2011, 08:04:09 PM
Thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten about that PS3 baby campaign of terror.
While I would choose Kevin over Make Believe or any other Playstation ad in existence in a 2 way false choice scenario, Kevin just isn't funny. It's not the type of humour, he just isn't funny at all and add in the fact they try to make him representative of the gamer mindset, it's salt in the wound, unlike the baby, it's a lot more insidious. The Nintendo Wii Would like to Play launch series of ads were funnier in it's weird quirky way.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on May 23, 2011, 11:18:47 PM
Kevin Butler is marketing gold. The setup to the commercials are marketing gold (with a user asking him a question). While I rarely find them "Ha Ha" funny, I wouldn't change either of them; at least not yet.
I hope their loses teach them nothing. Sony products are great because they are so ridiculously bloated with specs that they can't possibly make a profit. So what the consumer gets is a discount on something they couldn't afford before. Also, Sony will forever be in the hacker's eye now. So what ever super-computer they come up with next, you better believe a legion of hackers will make the most out of it.
But who knows. Maybe they'll look back at the PS2 and actually wonder why it was successful.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 24, 2011, 12:07:22 AM
I suppose it would be best if Sony never learns anything, because like Napoleon once said "never interrupt your enemy when he is about to make a mistake". Napoleon was one of the best (if not the best) military strategists of all time and he was fine with his enemies repeating their mistakes as opposed to learning from them. Do we really want to return to the PS2 era with Sony in 1st place and Nintendo far behind? Since this is a Nintendo fansite I would assume most of us would rather have Nintendo be on top.
It is also a good thing from a consumer rights perspective as well, because Sony has proven they are no friend to consumers. So if they aren't humbled and start treating consumers with more respect then the next best thing is for them to stay in the gutter of third place where they are.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 24, 2011, 12:25:27 AM
I don't want anyone on top, at least not to the degree we saw this generation. The reason the 16-bit era was so amazing (beside nostalgia) is that there was close competition between the major players. I want to see all three companies neck and neck (and neck), forcing them to pull out all the stops to win.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on May 24, 2011, 12:33:32 AM
Agreed except that I hope multi-platform titles are built for the console I enjoy the most.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Ymeegod on May 24, 2011, 02:09:00 AM
Guess you missed this point "the net loss comes from a $4.4 billion tax accounting write-off".
The company I used to work for done alot of similar stuff, give huge bonuses for themselves than when our yearly report came out it showed an loss.
Sony isn't hurting as much as you think.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 24, 2011, 02:50:31 AM
I'm thinking that "customer appreciation program" Sony is going to be offering to the 77 million users effected by the PSN hack are going to be used as a tax write off. They're going to say they are giving away $40 or more worth of software away to 77 million people and say this is costing them an arm and a leg, when in reality it costs them very little to give it away because it is digital distribution.
Microsoft pulled some similar crap back when they were punished by the government for violating Anti-trust laws and their punishment was that they had to donate millions of dollars worth of software to schools. Linux could have been provided to the schools instead for free... and the really ironic thing about it is that it actually further solidified the Windows monopoly.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 24, 2011, 10:53:18 AM
I'm thinking that "customer appreciation program" Sony is going to be offering to the 77 million users effected by the PSN hack are going to be used as a tax write off. They're going to say they are giving away $40 or more worth of software away to 77 million people and say this is costing them an arm and a leg, when in reality it costs them very little to give it away because it is digital distribution.
I think I had said that exact same thing in the PSN thread.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 25, 2011, 04:42:09 AM
Seriously, when Brawl was being released I was fairly annoyed to hear Nintendo say, if the developer didn't come to us, we didn't put the character in.
In fact, that is one reason I want a new director heading up this team. I want a director that understands what the game is, and what gamers want to see in the game...and try their best to provide it. I want the director to go to the 3rd parties and say. Hey, gamers really want Mega Man in Smash Brothers, lets make it happen together.
I want to see a new director take a fairly perfect franchise but figure out how to tweak it even better...infuse it with new ideas, and new directions, because Brawl and Melee didn't change at all.
Title: Re: Sony Hasn't Learned Anything, While Nintendo Has.
Post by: Stogi on May 25, 2011, 02:47:08 PM
Spak, the logistics alone to do that would be mind-boggling. This isn't Marvel vs. Capcom. This is Super Smash Bros. A game where a lot of balance is needed. The more characters there are, the harder it will be to achieve that balance. Having another company come in with their ideas and elements won't freshen up the series. It'll make the series a 'camel'.
