Author Topic: Let's Talk Controller  (Read 31461 times)

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Offline ShyGuy

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RE:Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2005, 10:35:31 PM »
You know what I would like added to a controller? A scroll wheel, like off of a mouse. Maybe put it where the Z button is. So instead of having to use the directional pad to go through inventory, you can use the much easier wheel.

And I'm sure Miyamoto would find clever new uses for it as well.


Offline Renny

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RE:Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2005, 05:58:59 AM »
I've always wanted a controller with a marble mouse. I don't know the logistics of building one cheaply and durably, but whatever console had that would be ideal for FPS. Maybe MS's next console would benefit from having one. It would definitely help them build on their success in the West.

As far as Revolution's controller:  Just give me gyration control in the GCN controller with the few necessary tweaks listed by others here and I'm happy. The Cube's controller is so close to perfect, I'd hate to see it stray too far from what it has established just for the sake of change. I'm sure Nintendo will surprise us somehow.
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Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2005, 01:40:49 PM »
i think the revolution will largely consist of wireless controllers and. . ..
that's about it. wireless controllers will be the norm from now on. OMFG that liek changesz gaeming 4oreveR
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2005, 05:05:13 PM »
by marble mouse, you mean an exposed mouse ball in the place of one or more joysticks or buttons don't you?  i've thought about that before, but ultimately decided it comes down to what modifications or room for modifications the revolution's layout has.  you have to think about whether there will be four analog sticks and no face buttons, two analog sticks and no face buttons, or something different.  there could be two analog sticks and two sets of face buttons with mouse balls in the place of the large round a button in the center of the face buttons.  we could see face buttons that are analog or digital.  face buttons could be like mouse wheels this time around, with scrolling and digital clicking combined.  mice wheels will most likely find their way to the shoulders of the controllers next gen though.  traditionally buttons on controllers are seperated by distance, we could see something like large buttons that are two buttons in one (one button underneath the top half, one underneath the bottom half) like half a dpad.  we are just going to have to wait and see what happens.  for now, nintendo would rather let MS drop the ball on their controller than show how spectacular their own is.  
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2005, 07:26:56 PM »
You always need face buttons. Even the simplest of games require some additional buttons in addition to directional control. Though I'd say we could replace the c-stick with a trackball and the A button with a coolie hat. If you're using gyros the two handles need to be separated.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2005, 12:38:01 AM »
If you want to push the use of both gyros and both analog sticks at the same time then you won't be using the face buttons half as much.  Z buttons beneath the controller, mice wheels on the shoulders, and analog triggers with digital clicking between them could be the only buttons other than pause.  

I would rather have four floating analog sticks than have only two floating analog sticks and no face buttons.  They would be making quite a statement with their console if the controller had nothing but analog sticks on the top of it.
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Offline Caillan

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2005, 12:55:18 AM »
The problem with multiple triggers and dual shoulder buttons is that they force you to hold the controller in a specific way. A controller made with mostly face buttons is flexable in how someone can hold it without losing their ability to manipulate it effectively. Both people with big and small hands can usually hold the GC controller comfortably, but the XBox and PS2 controllers are more difficult. The 64 controller was particuarly poor for users with large hands.

Offline Artimus

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2005, 01:20:25 AM »
How else are you supposed to hold a controller?

Offline Caillan

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2005, 01:34:32 AM »
One of my friends had to hold the 64 controller by the two most outer prongs, and he had great difficulty reaching both the Z trigger and anolouge stick. He has to balance the GC controller on his three outer-most fingers while his index fingers hang down. His thumbs have to be bent at a 90 degree angle at the joint if he wants to use both the face buttons and push down the anolouge shoulder ones simultaneously. I have no idea how he manages the PS2 or XBox controllers.

Offline RABicle

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2005, 02:17:17 AM »
Stop with the weak speculation guys. I can tell you right now taht revolution will feature a lever. The console just sits there and theres a big lever attached to it and every game is a lever game. Mario returns to his plumbing roots in his launch game Mario 128, a blocked toilet simulator. You see this tolet is full of internet forum feces (from Bowser) and you gotta pump really hard on your lever to unplug it.

Nintendo are also looking at the possibilty of a Pully add on.
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Offline Mario

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2005, 03:05:52 AM »
What the? Nintendo wants to SIMPLIFY things not use 4 analog sticks or a billion face buttons. I will be disappointed if the revolution uses a controller, with buttons, like current consoles do.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2005, 04:24:43 AM »
Why? Buttons help with digital functions that cannot be expressed as a direction. And they're more usable. Pushing A to jump and Y to crouch is much easier than pushing up to jump and down to crouch. On the C64 you often had games use the up direction of the joystick as the jump button and it felt kind of messy. Try playing Giana Sisters and then Super Mario Bros. Same concept but one has you jumping with up and the other has a jump button.

Offline Mario

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2005, 11:55:32 AM »
Whoops, i meant, I don't want a controller, period. D-pad, analog sticks, buttons, same thing. Controllers are too complex!

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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RE:Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2005, 02:19:52 PM »
Recycled post from GAF
Quote

Gaming Age Forums wrote:
There’s already been at least one dodgy “leak” before about the Revolution, but supposedly the same tipster who dished some reliable early dirt on the DS has also given up some details about Nintendo’s next-generation game console. Here’s what this guy is claiming:

* That Nintendo is building gyroscopes into the controllers, presumably to add some sort of motion-control aspect to games.
* The console will have dual processors and built-in broadband (we’re assuming Ethernet, but maybe also WiFi?).
* There are no plans to connect the DS to the Revolution, but there could be some integration with the Game Boy Evolution.
* The Revolution will have four controller ports, a hard drive, and support for high-resolution displays and Dolby Digital 5.1 channel surround sound.
* The console will be backwards-compatibility with GameCube games, and in what would only be a swipe at Sony, its drive will use HD-DVD, rather than Blu-ray, discs.
* The console will launch with a new Mario game (of course), and there is a new Zelda game in the works.
* There’s some teaser stuff at the end about how the truly “revolutionary” part of the new console is going to be something that “is nothing new technically speaking. It’s just something that hasn’t really been applied to video games before.” The tipster also claims that his source would only tell him that “touching is good but feeling is better.”

We’re not even going to front that this stuff is all for real or not—we simply won’t know for sure until Nintendo unveils this thing at E3.



Take from it what you will, but I also heard a rumour that ATi is involved with the next controller somehow.......

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2005, 11:37:01 AM »
i started to make a new controller topic because this one found its way to the second page of the board, but decided to just reply with my new controller drawings and bump it back to the top

http://photobucket.com/albums/v695/nemo_83/?action=view¤t=rev.jpg

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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #90 on: February 18, 2005, 11:48:15 AM »
That link sends me to a list of your pics instead of just one image.  Still I'm smart enough to figure out which one is the controller pic.

It's an interesting design but I don't like it.  It looks like I have to completely re-learn how to play games in order to use it.  Plus it just doesn't look like it would work well with a  lot of existing games.  I don't think it would be possible to play Street Fighter on it with any sort of accuracy for example.  Plus using only one hand would make it near impossible to move and push buttons at the same time which is crucial for games.  To me it looks like a deliberate attempt to change traditional controller design but doesn't provide a superior design.  It just looks like change for the sake of change.  It's really creative but creativity is not important for controllers, practicality is.  Some of the ideas however might work really well if you applied them to something that requires two hands.

Still I would like a better description on how it exactly works.  What is the button wheel lock?

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #91 on: February 20, 2005, 09:28:09 AM »
I never had a problem playing OoT with one hand, why not have two one handed controllers.  Some games like Mario Kart might only require one hand allowing you to give your friend the other one handed controller for instant multiplayer out of the box.  

The button wheel could be unlocked rotated and locked in place again.  If you thought the fire button should be at the bottom instead of the jump button on the wheel you would just rotate the buttons to where you want them without having to remove plugs from the controller like some third party designs.

More importantly you could unlock the button wheel and use it for turning, steering, or scrolling.

I don't feel that it is being different for the purpose of being different.  The Cube controller is different for the purpose of being different rather than meeting standards set by the competition.  Street Fighter was the only game that worried me when I designed it and is the primary reason I put buttons on the wheel.  It would still be uncomfortable to play a traditional button mashing fighter, but that is a risk I think is worth taking in order to get more racing games on Nintendo's next system.  I used Mode Red's floating analog stick http://www.geocities.com/drkdoubleo/ModeRedFloatStick.bmp which is a unique feature that the present controllers don't have.  Aside from the design, the way the buttons are in a circle and the way the analog stick is almost at a diagonal; there are several innovations not featured on present consoles.  There is the button wheel lock, the wheel mechanic, the track ball, grip, a gyro, and a shoulder mounted scroll wheel.  It features more than just the standard number of buttons allowing it to play "normal" games but gives you new options that have never been seen on a controller together.  



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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #92 on: February 20, 2005, 07:31:35 PM »
"The button wheel could be unlocked rotated and locked in place again. If you thought the fire button should be at the bottom instead of the jump button on the wheel you would just rotate the buttons to where you want them without having to remove plugs from the controller like some third party designs."

Okay I like that idea.  Aside from moving the buttons you could also have the option of going with a diamond or square layout if that sort of thing would matter to someone.  In theory that sort of button moving functionality could be done with software that changes what each botton is mapped to.  But that would give up the steering functionality which could be really cool.

As for the two one handed idea how about you make it so that the two halves can join together just to give people more flexibility.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2005, 01:11:19 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"The button wheel could be unlocked rotated and locked in place again. If you thought the fire button should be at the bottom instead of the jump button on the wheel you would just rotate the buttons to where you want them without having to remove plugs from the controller like some third party designs."

Okay I like that idea.  Aside from moving the buttons you could also have the option of going with a diamond or square layout if that sort of thing would matter to someone.  In theory that sort of button moving functionality could be done with software that changes what each botton is mapped to.  But that would give up the steering functionality which could be really cool.

As for the two one handed idea how about you make it so that the two halves can join together just to give people more flexibility.



A mechanism allowing for the two halves to be locked together would be easy to implement, and allow for another alternative for steering wheels using two gyros together.  
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Offline Don'tHate742

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2005, 05:29:59 PM »
After reading whom ever posted the idea about the splitting controller. I dub it brilliant.

I agree with  Ian that it should split into two instead of three....I mean who has a third arm, and if you weren't intended to use those buttons in a particular game, I see no need to completely remove them. If it splits into two, I forsee many fun game mechanics available. At first I thought about that Matrix scene (first one) where Neo walks into a building with a bunch of weapons then he sprays two uzi's with his arms criss crossed, obviously killing everyone. With this controller you could simulate that. I think the analog stick should always act if your facing the tv, with forward being forward, and not left if your arm is facing left. So you criss cross your arms while pressing forward on the left stick (or right I don't know) then pressing both triggers on each part of the controller; successfully creating the scene from the matrix.

I think the controller piece should also be light, so there isn't any strain after playing for say 30 minutes. Either light or include a strap or something for each part that goes around your hand. Also the controller parts should be switchable. The left should be able to become the right and vice versa. That way the side that has the buttons could be switched with the side that has the analog stick and D-pad. Maybe a switch could be included so the gyroscopic information could also swich and not display backwards.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2005, 04:11:01 AM »
I seriously do not like the idea of a splitting controller...or controllers with additional unneccessary moving parts.

I want a controller that is solid, and that I won't have to worry about dropping, the connectors breaking, or even the analog stick getting worn out.  I want a controller with solid button placement, solid design, and is functional.  

I do not want something that is too abstract, easy to break, or has needless complications.


Offline nemo_83

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RE:Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2005, 09:48:51 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Don'tHate742
After reading whom ever posted the idea about the splitting controller. I dub it brilliant.

I agree with  Ian that it should split into two instead of three....I mean who has a third arm, and if you weren't intended to use those buttons in a particular game, I see no need to completely remove them. If it splits into two, I forsee many fun game mechanics available. At first I thought about that Matrix scene (first one) where Neo walks into a building with a bunch of weapons then he sprays two uzi's with his arms criss crossed, obviously killing everyone. With this controller you could simulate that. I think the analog stick should always act if your facing the tv, with forward being forward, and not left if your arm is facing left. So you criss cross your arms while pressing forward on the left stick (or right I don't know) then pressing both triggers on each part of the controller; successfully creating the scene from the matrix.

I think the controller piece should also be light, so there isn't any strain after playing for say 30 minutes. Either light or include a strap or something for each part that goes around your hand. Also the controller parts should be switchable. The left should be able to become the right and vice versa. That way the side that has the buttons could be switched with the side that has the analog stick and D-pad. Maybe a switch could be included so the gyroscopic information could also swich and not display backwards.



there will be no dapd on the Revolution controller according to Nintendo.  in my design both controllers would have exactly the same functions on them.  you could use the button wheel as a dpad if you wanted.

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Offline Don'tHate742

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2005, 10:05:03 AM »
well look at it this way....

The way I see it (the controller); it would be the first step into the future of virtual reality. I really think that if they haven't already implented this type of control for next generation, then it will be undoubtedly be in the generation after.

To be more clear, the controller will have two parts: One side with an analog stick similar to that seen today as well as a D-pad; The other side will have 4 buttons or more and another analog stick similar to the configuration seen on any of today's controller. Now both parts will feature triggers (I mean real triggers like those on the Xbox) to accompany both trigger fingers. Now either a button or yet another trigger should be placed on the back of each part of the controller to be used by the middle finger. Since the middle finger is longer than the trigger finger, the trigger/button should be towards the inside of the handle, as well as being smaller since the middle finger is also weaker. Both handles should feel very easy to hold, and every button/stick should be easily reached and used.  Now both handles should have their own method of sending information from the controller to the controller port (obviously neccessary for a two part controller). It also must be wireless; I don't know what that does for the rumble feature, but which ones better: Gyration or rumble feature. Now both parts should be able to hook up to one another and still feel comfertable. The attachment process shouldn't be complicated. Maybe one side fits inside another and locks. Either way it should invovle a one step process. And for disconjoining them, you simply press a button or switch; nothing complicated. Both parts should also include a strap of some sort so you can let go of the controller, but still have it attached to you. If your worried about dropping it, then worry no more, the rest is your fualt. Now this would help out with games solely based on the gyration aspect.

Now each part will be sensitive to the way it is moved around (gyration or whatever). Games don't have to support the feature, but most could use it here and there (even in say, a football game). If you don't yet understand what i'm trying to get at, then maybe a couple of real-life examples. For starters imagine a racing game, where your left hand is one the top of the wheel and your right is on a hand brake/boost. When you make a turn to the left, simply rotate your arm left in a circle. If you want to use the hand brake, you press the right trigger and you can act like your pulling the hand brake then pushing it back down when you excellerate (the trigger on the left part is used for excelleration).  If pulling the said handbrake isn't that intuitive in practice, then it could just be pressing the right trigger.  And if you didn't want to use any gyration aspects; you can also do that. The whole point is that it adds possiblities, while not constricting others. Even apart from the gyration situation, I myself would still rather use a two piece controller anyday for any game, becuase imagine how comfertable it must be to relax with two hands completely seperate from one another yet still actively in the game.

Another example would be if your playing a football game. Everything would control exactly the same, but some moments could be changed to allow user gyration inputs. Like for instance, you throw to your reciever normally like you would in today's game and as the ball flys through the air, you run to catch. When you catch the ball, YOU actually catch the ball. It isn't simply pressing a button called catch. You actually complete the motion of catching the ball, while pressing catch.  Since you and the reciever are aligned (right is the recievers right also), you can easily immitate the catch if the camera view is decent. They can even make a game where all you do is virtually catch a ball. They can even immitate you catching an egg, where you have to move your hand down as you catch it so there isn't enough resistance for the egg to break. Simple things like that could become fun.

Now what about Link? When riding your horse, the concept of the racing game can be borrowed. You rotate your arm left to turn your horse left, you can pull back to make your horse stop, you can pull back faster for your horse to rise up and ney. Now with your free hand you can take hold of Link's sword, and physically deal out blows. Now what if you whip out your bow, you can aim in the direction you want and at the same time control where your horse is going. This seperates the control from Link and his horse. Also a side cam could showing the Link from the opposite side your aiming. If you aim foward it's behind you; if you to the left and upwards, it's behind you and tilted up to show what you are looking at. You may not be able to see where he is going but you can quickly aim forward if you really need to know. Now link is left handed so I don't know how that would work with the controls being meant for a right-handed person but it could be solved somehow. What about just regular fighting? You would actually take control of link's shield and his sword. You can't just pressing shield to block an attack, you have to block the attack yourself and actually in the direction it's coming from. This could help with the octoroks. Now jumping and all that movement, besides the actually arm movements could be put on the button configuration.

More games could come out taking advantage of this type of controller, such as a boxing game or even golf. Anything dealing with your arms and hands could be easily implemented into anygame. Imagine the WarioWare REV, where you one mini-game is where you feed fatty. You see a huge kid with a bunch of food in front of him and your soppose to move your arms as if stuffing your own face.  And what about shake the tree, or stir the pudding. I think you get my point.

Now how could you (Spak-Spang) be such against a controller like this.
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Offline Guitar Smasher

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2005, 11:06:00 AM »
Don'tHate742:  You just made me think of how cool using a bow in a Zelda game would be.  Imagine you're in a dungeon and you have to shoot a target.  With your left hand, you move the left pad to aim the bow.  With your right hand, you push and hold the A button on the right pad, and you pull back as if you were pulling the cord.  Letting go of the button releases the cord and the arrow is fired.  That sounds so much more fun and engaging than simply moving a control stick and pushing a button.  The same can be applied to sword battles.   Pushing a button and seeing your character swing a sword was pretty cool... ten years ago.  Now you can actually 'swing' your sword.  This creates a whole new dynamic in how the game is PLAYED.  If Nintendo does go this route, I think they will up to their claim to revolutionize gaming.

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Let's Talk Controller
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2005, 11:27:30 AM »
So what you're saying Guitar Smasher is that I have to be skillful in REAL LIFE with a bow and sword in order to play Zelda.  The whole reason I play games is that it allows me to do things I can't normally do and be good at things I suck at in real life.  Otherwise I might as well just do the real life activity.  Why play Zelda when the skills I would require to beat it could be used for archery or fencing?  If you take things too far then it will no longer be fun.

Imagine if you had to actually move your arm as if you were throwing a pass in football when playing Madden.  You would SUCK unless you're a good football player in real life.  If it was accurate enough you have to be a legit NFL quarterback to throw a pass in the videogame.  And if the computer AI was any good you would be schooled because it would Gary who has only played touch football in gym class vs the real life New England Patriots.  It's a neat idea in theory but there is a huge advantage in having complex skills that require a lot of training and talent mapped to a single button press.