Topic: Episode 269: Doin' It Like We Do

[ejamer]

ejamer - Just saying ... what percentage of folks do you think have experienced those game-breaking bugs? less than 10? less than 5?

The percentage is probably very small, but what is the "acceptable number" for bugs that are truly game-breaking?


I'm not really trying to be negative. Just pointing out that even great games have occasional bugs and issues that make it out into the real world. Allowing and supporting patches is a good thing. Relying on post-release development to clean up games that intentionally get released too early to take advantage of (for example) the holiday season isn't good at all.

Neal - When it comes to Madden, couldn't that be one of the few times when paid DLC makes sense? In other words, what if instead of selling you a full-priced game that is essentially a roster update, they sold $5 or $10 roster updates every year?  They could wait to release a full game until the technology or programming could allow them to make something truly new.

I think 5 or 10 bucks from every Madden fan would still make them a boatload of money if they didn't have to pay hardly any production costs.

I also wish they would starting doing this, but Neal is right: there is simply too much money on the table for new releases.


Too bad they don't offer both: a new game that costs more but includes new features and improvements, and a roster update service that costs less but leaves players with older versions of the game. I suppose that would split the community though, and make new releases more risky in case reviews and online opinions ever suggest skipping the new release and just updating old versions.

KDR - As Jonny said, any game can have bugs.  Even small-budget games.  Again, the time when people are justified in being upset is when a company that has the resources chooses not to use them for silly reasons like: "eh, we can do it later, let's go have a beer" or "the foolish execs would rather it be out by Week X than work well" or whatever other lame scenario you can imagine.

I suspect that the "foolish execs" scenario you mention happens very often. Game development is a business first and foremost, and striking a balance between cost and quality isn't always easy.

[Retro Deckades]

I'd like to address Mr. Metts' point about marketing the Wii U's ability to stream to the controller. As an adult who does yet not have children, I still find this functionality extremely inticing. I do not own a 3DS, nor do I plan on picking one up (reasons being how rarely I game on the go anymore and the backlog of DS games that would make James cry), yet I still do a significant amount of handheld gaming while at home. With the launch of the Wii U, I'll be able to play my games on the TV and around the house while only having to purchase one system. I am excite!

[Chocobo_Rider]

Neal - agreed.  and then we get in to industry morality/good will which is a whole other story!

ejamer - agreed. I am absolutely pro-patching, just anti-abusing. sounds like you are too =)

OneTwenty - agreed!! I luckily married a gamer girl but she also likes to watch her Grey's Anatomy while I sit on the couch grumbling and NOT playing Okami =P

Yes, I have a DSiXL and a PSP and my laptop but... sometimes you just wanna play that console game!

[Mop it up]

Nintendo have fixed bugs before by releasing new versions at retail. For example, The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time had a bug where you could unequip the sword, which could be used for a whole host of other fun glitches. This and many other bugs present were removed in a later version of the game, in fact I think only the initial shipment has these bugs. Another famous example is Super Smash Brothers Melee, which has at least three different versions. Unfortunately, I bought the game at launch, so I'm stuck with my resetting high scores for certain characters, and can't get past the 4,500-some foot limit in the Home Run Contest.

Hopefully Nintendo will allow patching on the Wii U, but until then, Nintendo could offer replacement discs for those who bought the game near release. I know that later versions of Twilight Princess removed the cannon glitch, and maybe others, and I believe Metroid Other M's bug was fixed too. I imagine Skyward Sword will be seeing a new version soon as well. Since discs are so cheap to manufacture, this would cost them hardly anything to do. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening.

[broodwars]

My retort to the whole argument of there being a double-standard against Nintendo (for releasing the same game over and over again) is that Activision doesn't take 5 years to create the new Call of Duty and then release essentially the same game as its predecessor.  If Nintendo released a new Mario Kart or Zelda every year, maybe I could understand why they're all so similar.  However, when Nintendo allegedly spends 5 years creating a new Zelda title, that's 5 years of us building up excitement that Nintendo might finally do something substantially new with the series (especially when Nintendo tries to push that with interviews about how it's going to be so new and different).  Then the product releases and it's not that different.  Disappointment ensues, and it's the case with Nintendo's other franchises.

I don't see it as a double-standard.  I see expectations for Nintendo's titles being deservedly greater due to Nintendo's reputation and their excessively-long development times.  Plus, Nintendo's been creating essentially iterations on the same games for well over 20 years.  Call of Duty's been doing it for 7, assuming you don't think the first Modern Warfare changed things up enough.  And even then, as mentioned in the show that franchise has been trying to make strides in storytelling so it's not the same game at least in Single-Player.  But when the day comes that Call of Duty has been iterating as long as something like Zelda has been, you'll see the same complaints.  And, incidentally, Modern Warfare 3 has seen complaints about essentially being Modern Warfare 2.5, so it's not like it hasn't started already.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@broodwars

That is one way to look at things. 

[ejamer]

Nintendo have fixed bugs before by releasing new versions at retail. ...

Reminds me of early release versions of Maniac Mansion on the NES. That game saw quite a few changes and censored "fixes" - yet somehow they missed the microwavable hamster. Not really a bug... but quite funny to be able to roam the house as a ghost. Actually, a funny game no matter how you slice it.


Quite interested to see the unequipped sword bug in Ocarina of Time. Never heard about that before.
 

[roykoopa64]

Great episode! I don't have much to add, except I love Skyward Sword and found very little to be disappointed with, overall. The Silent Realm sections were pretty cool actually.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I agree with everything that was said about Skyward Sword. Thank you.

[NWR_DrewMG]

A little late to the party on this discussion, but regarding the scratches on the 3D screen due to the design flaw, I had this issue as well.  I finally called Nintendo up and they were more than happy to repair it under warranty.  On top of that, the repair comes with a year extension on the warranty from the date of repair, so now my 3DS warranty is good through next November.  Excellent.

[NWR_insanolord]

I'll play devil's advocate here for a second and argue that the fact that Nintendo doesn't iterate Mario Kart annually could actually give more reason to be upset at the lack of changes. If Nintendo follows the pattern they've established, this is the only Mario Kart we're going to get on the 3DS, so any shortcomings with it won't be addressed until a new hardware platform, if at all. I'm not saying it's justifiable to have lower expectations for annualized franchises, but the fact is if they don't do what they should they can always fix it next year.

Also, I think the benefits of building in patching support far outweigh the drawbacks. The whole idea of publishers releasing broken games with the assumption of fixing them via patch isn't as widespread on the other consoles as a lot of Nintendo fans want to believe. Sure, tons of games get patches, but most of them play just fine without them. Not allowing for patches makes it harder for genuine mistakes to be fixed, but doesn't prevent problems from occurring in the first place.

[Yoshidious]

I'll play devil's advocate here for a second and argue that the fact that Nintendo doesn't iterate Mario Kart annually could actually give more reason to be upset at the lack of changes. If Nintendo follows the pattern they've established, this is the only Mario Kart we're going to get on the 3DS, so any shortcomings with it won't be addressed until a new hardware platform, if at all. I'm not saying it's justifiable to have lower expectations for annualized franchises, but the fact is if they don't do what they should they can always fix it next year.

This was an important point that I wanted to mention during this episode with respect to Nintendo pumping out installments in their top selling franchises less frequently than some other publishers, but since I failed to do so I'm glad to see that JP and broodwars have raised it in this thread. As we discussed in the hype feature all the way back in Episode 120, expectations going into a game can play a powerful role in how much one enjoys it, and as we've seen with Skyward Sword recently, the number of years between titles can seem by itself to shape those expectations to a significant degree.

[Ax23000]

Really quick thought on Bethesda games being a 'mess'.  I think that my experience has never really found this to be the case.  Yes, there are ALWAYS bugs.  I don't believe it's possible to create a game with the scope of Skyrim that doesn't have bugs.  I suspect you could test the game for all eternity and still have problems.  But saying the game is a 'buggy mess' implies that as you play all you do is see bugs everywhere.  By and far this is not the case.  Skyrim, and Bethesda games in general, are a prime example of the sum being greater than its parts.  I've played the game for close to 30 hours and so far seen only one minor bug where a dragon got stuck.  What I have seen, constantly, as I've played have been fantastic vistas, characters going about their lives, wildlife living in the snowy wastes, stars wheeling in the sky, snow blowing on the wind, etc.  In other words, what I've mostly experienced with this game is the wonder and joy of being dropped into an amazingly well realized world.

However, when Nintendo allegedly spends 5 years creating a new Zelda title, that's 5 years of us building up excitement that Nintendo might finally do something substantially new with the series (especially when Nintendo tries to push that with interviews about how it's going to be so new and different). 

There are TONS of things about Skyward Sword that are different from how things have operated since Ocarina of Time first came out.

To start with, I think people are really underselling the amount of time and energy that must have gone into making motion controls work on the scale of this game.  They make it feel effortless and natural, but there's a reason we've yet to see any other game with motion controls as brilliant as those in Skyward Sword.  Even with the basic building blocks in place from Resort, there are a lot of issues that game didn't have to deal with due to the very controlled enviroment that each of those minigames takes place in.

In terms of world design, Skyward Sword is a HUGE departure from the model laid out by OoT.  The way each area is closed off from one another for example.  And the way each of those areas is laid out in a maze-like configuration with lots of little puzzles to solve.  Come on.  It seems absurd to not give the developers credit for making this change.  We can argue whether it was a good idea or bad one, but there can be no doubt in my mind that it was substantial.

Yes, the game still features dungeons and yes you gather items in those dungeons, but there are times where the lead up to the dungeon is incredibly unique and interesting.  There's one section of the game in particular that strikes me as I think about this, but I don't want to spoil it.  All I'll say is that it involves a boat and a time shift stone.

This game also features a number of quests that don't ask you to enter a dungeon at all.  Instead the developers found a number of ways to set all of the action for these quests in each of the areas of the over world.  There's one quest near the very end of the game where they radically alter the entire area using water.  In another part of that same quest they turn the entire area into a sort of dungeon and restrict access to your items, forcing you to rethink how you'd normally approach the challenges.

There are also boss battles that don't take place in a dungeon.

I haven't even touched on other things I noticed, for example the way the developers really worked to create a connection with the characters in a way I can't recall from any past Zelda games.  The story in general is very well done and suprisingly emotional at points.

These are significant changes that really change the feel of the game IMO.  I suppose you could complain that the game still utilizes a structure that asks you to collect things at every turn.  I'm not going to argue that there aren't plenty of things about this game that feel like Zelda, but at a certain point that should be the case.  Otherwise why call it Zelda at all?  I think, for me, the balance between new and old elements is just about perfect in Skyward Sword.

[leahsdad]

A little late to the party on this discussion, but regarding the scratches on the 3D screen due to the design flaw, I had this issue as well.  I finally called Nintendo up and they were more than happy to repair it under warranty.  On top of that, the repair comes with a year extension on the warranty from the date of repair, so now my 3DS warranty is good through next November.  Excellent.

Yeah, Nintendo is awesome that way.  I dropped my XL a while back and busted the shoulder button, and while I never told them that the reason why the shoulder button was broken, they fixed it, no questions asked, and I had it back in 2 weeks, free shipping to and back.