Author Topic: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'  (Read 217306 times)

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Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #500 on: August 23, 2009, 12:39:58 AM »
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???


In and of themselves they're a pretty good idea. It's the people obsessed with them that deserve to be ridiculed.

Precisely.  Achievements/Trophies are like a game within a game.  They offer new ways to play your game.  If you don't like them, ignore them.  But at the end of the day, it is a bit silly to obsess over them considering some tasks require nothing more than kissing boys.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 01:21:52 AM by D_Average »
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #501 on: August 23, 2009, 01:14:27 AM »
Would you mind cleaning up those quotes so it doesn't look like I wrote them, D_Average?  With all those spaces it's a bit misleading.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 01:19:22 AM by broodwars »
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #502 on: August 23, 2009, 01:19:08 AM »
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???


In and of themselves they're a pretty good idea. It's the people obsessed with them that deserve to be ridiculed.

Precisely.  Achievements/Trophies are like a game within a game.  They offer new ways to play your game.  If you don't like them, ignore them.  But at the end of the day, it is a bit silly to obsess over them considering some tasks require nothing more than kissing boys.

Would you mind not quoting me as the writer of those statements considering I didn't?

Actually everywhere he quoted you, the quote block is empty. your empty quote bolock is inside of someone elses quote block

Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #503 on: August 23, 2009, 01:20:24 AM »
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???


In and of themselves they're a pretty good idea. It's the people obsessed with them that deserve to be ridiculed.

Precisely.  Achievements/Trophies are like a game within a game.  They offer new ways to play your game.  If you don't like them, ignore them.  But at the end of the day, it is a bit silly to obsess over them considering some tasks require nothing more than kissing boys.

Would you mind not quoting me as the writer of those statements considering I didn't?

Actually everywhere he quoted you, the quote block is empty. your empty quote bolock is inside of someone elses quote block

Yeah, i actually wanted to delete that post once I saw what the coding was doing, but there doesn't seem to be an option for that here.  it just looks misleading with the blank block quote.
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Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #504 on: August 23, 2009, 01:22:48 AM »
Would you mind cleaning up those quotes so it doesn't look like I wrote them, D_Average?  With all those spaces it's a bit misleading.  Thanks.

Sorry about that, fixed!  Didn't even notice, I'll have to double check that point forward.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #505 on: August 23, 2009, 02:51:40 AM »
Quote
Nintendo has dropped to an entry level video game..it's almost like the old you know toy "my first video game console;" that's where Nintendo is right now.

Be glad Nintendo is doing that job because noone else is and how are we supposed to get new gamers if all games require experience with games already?

Offline Elixir

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #506 on: August 23, 2009, 03:04:27 AM »
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???

Oh, I guess it was not obvious enough.  Or perhaps it was an ill-conceived attempt to be witty on your part.  In either case, my point was that the so-called "hardcore gaming" crowd has their focuses on the aspects of games that matter the least to, well, GAMES.  And with the hardcore separating themselves so obstinately from this new generation of gamers, I find it ironic that they are so quick to label one a "casual" or a "non-gamer" when they easily fulfill that label themselves. 

And before you have a cry about how achievements add content to games, I am talking about those that consider the achievements in a game more important than the game itself, as well as the "point system" that achievements and trophies utilize.  Achievements are nothing more than bloated self-gratification anyway, so why condone spilling your ego unto the masses?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 03:09:21 AM by Elixir »

Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #507 on: August 23, 2009, 03:11:18 AM »
Ok, I think I have a solid example here, and I don't often buy into that sort of thing: 1up's Metroid Prime Trilogy review.

http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3175681

He gave it a B+, so can anyone read that review and tell me exactly what his problem with this set was that he gave it a B+ besides the games being old?  It seems to me that he praised the games overall, so at the very least it's a poorly-written review.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 03:13:04 AM by broodwars »
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Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #508 on: August 23, 2009, 04:00:49 AM »
The real irony is that this generation's obsession with 1080p and meaningless tripe as achievements/trophies has shown how pitiful "gamers" have become.

I heard there was irony somewhere in this post, but I can't seem to find it.  Help please???

Oh, I guess it was not obvious enough.  Or perhaps it was an ill-conceived attempt to be witty on your part.  In either case, my point was that the so-called "hardcore gaming" crowd has their focuses on the aspects of games that matter the least to, well, GAMES.  And with the hardcore separating themselves so obstinately from this new generation of gamers, I find it ironic that they are so quick to label one a "casual" or a "non-gamer" when they easily fulfill that label themselves. 

And before you have a cry about how achievements add content to games, I am talking about those that consider the achievements in a game more important than the game itself, as well as the "point system" that achievements and trophies utilize.  Achievements are nothing more than bloated self-gratification anyway, so why condone spilling your ego unto the masses?

I agree with you that labels are silly.  But I don't think there is anything particuarily "ironic" about a gamer wanting fantastic graphics or more reasons to replay a game.  Some people like story, some controls, some a new experience, some just another FPS, and some unique or cutting edge graphics.  For example, racing games are my favorite genre.  There's nothing like flying through the tracks of Burnout and Pacific Rift.  In order for a visceral experience, only the latest and greatest graphics will do.  Going back to most GCN/PS2 racers now is a yawn fest (save Mario Kart and Twisted Metal)  Therefore, top notch hd graphics increase the gaming out of body experience for many people and become a legitimate request.

Back to your first statement though.  If the vast majority of "hardcore gamers" praising hd graphics, actually played their respective 360/PS3 on a 15 year old CRT, well, that would be ironic.  Almost as ironic as gamers who whine about gamerscore and long for the days of old.  Days where the score chase was alive and well in arcades across the world.  Donkey Kong anyone?
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #509 on: August 23, 2009, 04:08:42 AM »
The problem is when they rate the graphics and archievements higher than the actual game.

Gamerscore is different from highscores because highscores are a measure of skill, gamerscores are a measure of buying power first and foremost.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #510 on: August 23, 2009, 04:53:46 AM »
The problem is when they rate the graphics and archievements higher than the actual game.

Gamerscore is different from highscores because highscores are a measure of skill, gamerscores are a measure of time and resources.

fixed

Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #511 on: August 23, 2009, 05:06:03 AM »
Would you call Trophies the most pure interpretation of the concept, then?  Yeah, you technically have "levels" that you gain for your Online ID as you obtain trophies, but no one gives a damn about that because the leveling system is fairly abstract compared to the gamerscore.  Without the direct numerical comparison of the gamerscore, you pretty much just obtain trophies if you want to show you did something.  You can compare your trophies with your friends to see if they got them as well, but that's pretty much the extent of their usefulness as ego trips.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 05:08:58 AM by broodwars »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #512 on: August 23, 2009, 05:43:49 AM »
I'd probably point at the Steam archievements, they're completely optional and when you get one all your friends are told about it (unless they uncheck notifications for it) on the community page, combining ignorability and bragging into one convenient package while also reminding your friends what games you're playing.

Anyway, the complaint was that these secondary features are being considered a vital part of the game instead of something that's nice to have if you have it but no big deal if you don't

Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #513 on: August 23, 2009, 12:45:04 PM »
Weird, I've never met anyone who values trophies more than the actual game.  Most PS3 gamers I know, see them as a compliment to their collection.  And no one really gives a damn about the easy bronze ones.  Its the platinum, and gold that really count.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #514 on: August 23, 2009, 01:06:58 PM »
Aww man, I thought he left.

While nobody goes nuts for achievements, or the points thereof, much anymore, that is be precisely why they might be phased out Next Generation.  While initially there were seen as a way to add replay value, they haven't exactly set the world ablaze into buying frenzy just because they exist.  This is because the majority of gamers and yes, that is mostly the Wii and DS, and even PSP people, do not think it adds value to the final product.  As economics puts the squeeze on development studios, they will look for additional ways to save money, and the two things that will first be cut, will be A-List voice-acting and the two or three programmers whose sole job it is to look for achievement triggers in the code and make a link to an online profile (Also in danger of become either a charge service or have its price increased,) because they are not really seen as adding value to games anymore.

Sort of like how Sony abandoned Rumble technology at first this generation and how MS abandoned BC patches and instead opted for the money generating "digital distribution" of Xbox 1 titles.
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Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #515 on: August 23, 2009, 01:55:44 PM »
Aww man, I thought he left.

Hey Juggalo, you should really work on your comprehension skills.  I said I was done with discussing "arrogance", rather than continue to derail the thread.

and the two things that will first be cut, will be A-List voice-acting and the two or three programmers whose sole job it is to look for achievement triggers in the code and make a link to an online profile (Also in danger of become either a charge service or have its price increased,) because they are not really seen as adding value to games anymore.

BwAaaahahaha!  Tell you what.  Once that happens, I'll leave this forum, wish granted!
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #516 on: August 23, 2009, 01:59:27 PM »
Wait, Deguello is a Juggalo?

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #517 on: August 23, 2009, 02:13:08 PM »
Wait, Deguello is a Juggalo?

Juggalo - Fan of insane Clown Posse

maybe meaning that he is calling Deguello an Insane Clown

Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #518 on: August 23, 2009, 02:40:09 PM »
Quote
Hey Juggalo, you should really work on your comprehension skills.

...  What?  You might wanna try for better insults.  Leaving your target befuddled as opposed to insulted isn't exactly effective, dude.

Quote
BwAaaahahaha!  Tell you what.  Once that happens, I'll leave this forum, wish granted!

Outdated study is outdated.  A study from 2007 stating that achievements drove games sales in 2006 to 2007 fits right in line with what I've been saying here.  Initially, they were interesting additions, but not so anymore, and will probably be downplayed or eliminated in the next gen as a cost-cutting measure.

But if it's a stat fight you want, and since the prize is so juicy, I'll give you your desire.

DS - ~107 million units
Wii - ~52 million units
PSP - ~51 million units
360 - ~31 million units
PS3 - ~23 million units.

Notice how the top THREE do not have all-inclusive "achievement point systems," elected to have them by a game-by-game basis as the developer desires (e.g Contra 4, Wii Sports Resort, etc). In fact,  The Top 11 games this GENERATION don't even use "achievement points" at ALL.

1. Wii Sports - ~47 million
2. Wii Play - ~23 million
3. Nintendogs - ~22 million
4. Wii Fit - ~21 million
5. NSMB DS - ~20 million
6. Brain Age - ~17 miillion
7. Mario Kart Wii - ~17 million
8. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl - ~17 million
9. Mario Kart DS- ~ ~16 million
10. Brain Age 2 - ~14 million
11. Animal Crossing - ~11 million

After this, the first game at around 10 million, is Halo 3.  And that game only incidentally has achievements and probably sold more because it is Halo 3 than "achievements included."  Then it's SSBB, Mario Galaxy, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, and then CoD4.

So of the Top 16 games this generation, only two use achievements.  and since no game with achievements has outsold GTA: SA, the top selling game from last generation, I can say that achievements, at least, have not added anything customers really want.

But it's funny that, after accusing Nintendo of arrogance, and myself of being a paid "shill" for... disagreeing with you, you whip out a report with PR freshly slurped from the chin of an MS representative, fueled by an outdated 2007 study.  Who looks more like a viral marketer?

In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.  So you are free to leave.  Or you can try to discredit me and these figures and stick around, which is kinda what everybody's expecting.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 02:45:41 PM by Deguello »
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #519 on: August 23, 2009, 03:02:44 PM »
Quote
Hey Juggalo, you should really work on your comprehension skills.

...  What?  You might wanna try for better insults.  Leaving your target befuddled as opposed to insulted isn't exactly effective, dude.

Quote
BwAaaahahaha!  Tell you what.  Once that happens, I'll leave this forum, wish granted!

Outdated study is outdated.  A study from 2007 stating that achievements drove games sales in 2006 to 2007 fits right in line with what I've been saying here.  Initially, they were interesting additions, but not so anymore, and will probably be downplayed or eliminated in the next gen as a cost-cutting measure.

But if it's a stat fight you want, and since the prize is so juicy, I'll give you your desire.

DS - ~107 million units
Wii - ~52 million units
PSP - ~51 million units
360 - ~31 million units
PS3 - ~23 million units.

Notice how the top THREE do not have all-inclusive "achievement point systems," elected to have them by a game-by-game basis as the developer desires (e.g Contra 4, Wii Sports Resort, etc). In fact,  The Top 11 games this GENERATION don't even use "achievement points" at ALL.

1. Wii Sports - ~47 million
2. Wii Play - ~23 million
3. Nintendogs - ~22 million
4. Wii Fit - ~21 million
5. NSMB DS - ~20 million
6. Brain Age - ~17 miillion
7. Mario Kart Wii - ~17 million
8. Pokemon Diamond/Pearl - ~17 million
9. Mario Kart DS- ~ ~16 million
10. Brain Age 2 - ~14 million
11. Animal Crossing - ~11 million

After this, the first game at around 10 million, is Halo 3.  And that game only incidentally has achievements and probably sold more because it is Halo 3 than "achievements included."  Then it's SSBB, Mario Galaxy, Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, and then CoD4.

So of the Top 16 games this generation, only two use achievements.  and since no game with achievements has outsold GTA: SA, the top selling game from last generation, I can say that achievements, at least, have not added anything customers really want.

But it's funny that, after accusing Nintendo of arrogance, and myself of being a paid "shill" for... disagreeing with you, you whip out a report with PR freshly slurped from the chin of an MS representative, fueled by an outdated 2007 study.  Who looks more like a viral marketer?

In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.  So you are free to leave.  Or you can try to discredit me and these figures and stick around, which is kinda what everybody's expecting.

There's just one problem with your "proof".  Those top 3 games are on platforms that don't support achievements/trophies, so one can argue that group just hasn't experienced them before so they can't like or dislike them.  More accurate "proof" would be if the top 3 games were non-trophy/achievement games on platforms that supported trophies/achievements.  And by the way, companies like achievements, because they're easy to code (simple triggers, maybe 1-2 programmer tops.  The hard part of achievements is testing them, not coding them); add longevity to the product; and gives incentives to gamers not to trade their games in to GameStop.  They're something so simple to implement I'd be shocked if the cost was more than negligible.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 03:04:38 PM by broodwars »
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Offline D_Average

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #520 on: August 23, 2009, 03:12:45 PM »
In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.  So you are free to leave.  Or you can try to discredit me and these figures and stick around, which is kinda what everybody's expecting.

Yeah, Edge was so stupid to run this story a couple months ago.  What a bunch of dumba$$es!  Obviously, they didn't take into account the updated study to debunk the claim.  Go ahead and provide a link to it and I'll email it to Edge.  God I can't stand those guys, they hate the Wii.  They'll twist any study in order to save teh industry from going casual.

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Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #521 on: August 23, 2009, 03:14:14 PM »
Quote
There's just one problem with your "proof".  Those top 3 games are on platforms that don't support achievements/trophies, so one can argue that group just hasn't experienced them before so they can't like or dislike them.

So once you buy a Wii, you are forbidden to buy a 360?  Achievements would have made an impact in increased 360 sales over the Wii's.

Quote
More accurate "proof" would be if the top 3 games were non-trophy/achievement games on platforms that supported trophies/achievements.

No.  If the achievements/trophies actually drove sales, they would have driven sales above competitors products.

Quote
And by the way, companies like achievements, because they're easy to code (simple triggers, maybe 1-2 programmer tops.  The hard part of achievements is testing them, not coding them); add longevity to the product; and gives incentives to gamers not to trade their games in to GameStop.

None of this has been proven, and even if achievements were simple to produce, the economy has put enough squeeze on most developers and console makers that they've gone as far as to charge DLC for in-game money and stuff that used to be secret unlockables, like alternate costumes.  Who knows what further financial pressure might lead to.

Using the fact that the top three systems don't use achievements is precisely my point.  If they meant something, it would lead to higher sales of those systems.  It hasn't, and hasn't drove games that use them above games that don't.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #522 on: August 23, 2009, 03:14:21 PM »

In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.

But I'm sure they have increased rentals, especially among those chasing as many points as possible. ;D

Offline Deguello

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #523 on: August 23, 2009, 03:17:36 PM »
In any case, I have proven that achievements, to games sales and console userbases, have really contributed nothing and one COULD argue they've actually detracted from sales.  So you are free to leave.  Or you can try to discredit me and these figures and stick around, which is kinda what everybody's expecting.

Yeah, Edge was so stupid to run this story a couple months ago.  What a bunch of dumba$$es!  Obviously, they didn't take into account the updated study to debunk the claim.  Go ahead and provide a link to it and I'll email it to Edge.  God I can't stand those guys, they hate the Wii.  They'll twist any study in order to save teh industry from going casual.

Quote
Electronic Entertainment Design and Research (EEDAR) analyzed the 4,615 achievements incorporated in 124 retail and 63 downloadable game titles available for the Microsoft® Xbox 360™ during the period November 1, 2005 through June 1, 2007.

Oh my God, you are like the worst debater in the history of the world.  You didn't even READ YOUR OWN LINK.  This is the methodology for EEDAR's research on this issue.  Jesus Christ how embarrassing for you.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: The PATHETIC state of the gaming 'media'
« Reply #524 on: August 23, 2009, 03:23:22 PM »
Oh my God, you are like the worst debater in the history of the world.  You didn't even READ YOUR OWN LINK.  This is the methodology for EEDAR's research on this issue.  Jesus Christ how embarrassing for you.

D_Average

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