Author Topic: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)  (Read 21037 times)

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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2009, 07:52:41 PM »
Cause I want a real social experience all right there on my Wii.  I'm sorry to say this, but something more a long the line of XBL.

[spoilers]looks like I'm not walking down the right streets.[/spoilers]

So you want to pay for it?

50 bucks a year for a games worth of social experiences isn't that bad. I'd pay.  We should just have the option.  Like XBL.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2009, 08:06:25 PM »
This thread is a cornucopia of social experiences.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2009, 08:12:44 PM »
Whatever happened to the "Pay to Play" concept that Nintendo unveiled a while ago? Wasn't that going to be a more robust online service, or did it become something else?

Patches are a double-edged sword. While it is nice to be able to fix bugs which somehow sneaked past testing, it also encourages laziness because it allows publishers to rush a title out the door and fix it later. If I recall rightly, less than half of all Wii owners don't have their systems connected to the Internet, meaning that many people could get stuck with a "broken" or "unfinished" game. If bugs aren't game-breaking then they can also be fixed in later retail versions; Super Smash Brothers Melee had a few glitches fixed up shortly after its release.

Offline Adrock

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2009, 08:42:00 PM »
I despise patches. In previous generations, there were no do-overs and Nintendo still released tons of games with few to no glitches. Nintendo would rather re-start development or delay a game than release it a shoddy product. That's the kind of attitude I respect Nintendo for. Other companies should take note. Sure, delays suck, but in the end, I'd rather have a game that doesn't require fixing.

I'm also against downloadable content. For example, Capcom is charging $4 for costume packs and there are 5 of them. So a $60 suddenly becomes a potentially $80 game (for now). What the Christ? Of course, no one absolutely has to buy that stuff, but Capcom planned this and I can't shake the thought that this stuff should have been in the game already.

Offline EasyCure

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2009, 09:08:10 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see what the huge deal is? Yeah it is kind of lame that patching isn't allowed, but beyond that what is the huge deal?

Don't you see, GP, Wii doesn't allow egg timers to be installed by pira-home brew enthusiasts. How will people ever be able to tell when their eggs are ready. It's why the Wii is a gimmick fad for grandma children. Also what happens when a developer releases a game that has no gameplay? They can't just patch it in like they can with PS3/PC/360!

Nintendo's ruined the God damn industry.

hmmm....

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Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2009, 09:47:01 PM »
I despise patches. In previous generations, there were no do-overs and Nintendo still released tons of games with few to no glitches. Nintendo would rather re-start development or delay a game than release it a shoddy product. That's the kind of attitude I respect Nintendo for. Other companies should take note. Sure, delays suck, but in the end, I'd rather have a game that doesn't require fixing.

If the delay is for some stupid obscure bug that I'll never see, then I'd rather get the game earlier and patch later.  Patches cost me nothing.  Oh, there's a patch?  Go grab a beer.
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2009, 09:54:03 PM »
Don't the patches take up part of yarrr internal memory, matey?
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2009, 10:19:02 PM »
Less room in yor fridgidaire
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Offline Shift Key

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2009, 08:15:15 AM »
Perhaps this is the lapsed gamer in me, but I read through that article twice and the only coherent points in there are:

- Don't expect a NXE-style UI overhaul between now and the Wii2
- Nintendo are making homebrew gamers' lives miserable.

All of which are bloody obvious. How did this get dragged out to three pages?

Of course Nintendo are going to be limited by their current hardware (and to a lesser extent, the system architecture). Its closer to an embedded architecture than it is to a general-purpose architecture like the 360 and the PS3 (don't play the Von Neumann card, you know what I mean), so they are working with a stricter set of constraints.

Sure, I was as pissed off as the next guy about their storage solution (treat it like a fridge?) but its not suddenly going to be "External Devices Free-For-All" day for Wii gamers - you know as well as I do that Ninty are stubborn about making changes - see 64DD, Twilight Princess - no matter what the backlash from the hardcore core whatever name you call them now gamers.

Other complaints from here (I can't be bothered quoting or even reading this whole thing, so if these are misguided or just plain wrong, troll back):
- The "Sony and Microsoft fighting for the living room space" by pushing out updates to the OS and UI, let them continue this silly trend. The only people who care about stuff like that are the current owners, and they're already a captive audience. I'm not buying a 360 because they suddenly added the ability to create an avatar - there's free MMOs for people who need that sort of fix.

- No way to apply features like Wii Speak support retroactively to games? So what - they'll probably release another one with slightly upgraded visuals, slap a year on the end, and get you to pay the same price again in 12 months. Oh, you didn't want to third parties to succeed - you just wanted more for free...

- Patching games after release - what happened to testing the thing before going gold? That how it happened in the old days. What? Games are more complex, bigger budgets, tighter deadlines, and now Dyack is chasing you with a blunt instrument? Well whose fault is that? I didn't ask for a mini-movie in the middle of each level. Get back to work! I'm fine with the "improvements to netcode" class of patches, but if its a game that can be played through in its entirety on ONE system, there is no excuse for a good testing process.

- The homebrew/piracy scene - stop complaining. You are free to do whatever you want with the machine, but you aren't entitled to an easy ride. If they're obfuscating the system to your hindrance, that's their choice. Why not put two Gamecubes together with duct tape and pretend to take that apart instead? You can break it to your hearts content and then throw it out when you realise you don't know how to put it back together again.

Offline mac<censored>

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2009, 09:03:55 AM »
All of which are bloody obvious. How did this get dragged out to three pages?

Well if there's one constant through the many ages of man, it's People Love to Whine...

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2009, 11:54:18 AM »
Shift Key speaks truth.

Offline redgiemental

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2009, 12:29:55 PM »
So Nintendo has implemented things in such a way as to make offering some simple things to their customers impossible.

Their two competitors have avoided this problem and have served their customers better on this front.

but because it doesn't surprise Shift Key that makes it alright.

Glad that is sorted.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 08:12:25 PM by redgiemental »

Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2009, 05:53:51 PM »
I can understand the complaints that the Wii's limitations end up preventing Nintendo from doing any big updates with the system to help create a better experience.  But, then I ask does it really matter?  Most people don't care and prefer the simplicity of the Wii.

Yes, it means we will have some problems with some of the Wii nuances but you have that with any system...and Nintendo is just trying to protect its interests against pirating and homebrew which shouldn't be encouraged anyway.

The article in the end comes across as a bit whiny.  Hopefully the Wii 2 or whatever it is, will be a better experience, but if not oh well.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2009, 06:17:12 PM »
Dinky Internal Flash VS. RROD

VOTING BEGINS NOW
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2009, 06:33:49 PM »
If the delay is for some stupid obscure bug that I'll never see, then I'd rather get the game earlier and patch later.  Patches cost me nothing.  Oh, there's a patch?  Go grab a beer.
If it needs fixing, it's broken. Make it right the first time and there will be no need for patches. And where do companies draw the line? The "Oh, we'll just patch it later" attitude is one that will inevitably become worse over time. Eventually (assuming we don't already) we'll see games that companies know are broken and broken badly, but are rush to stores anyway because they know a solution is just a patch away. That's a sh*tty attitude to have, but it's where we're heading.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2009, 06:58:30 PM »
Let's recall how Tecmo released DOA4 with a game-save-deleting bug.  Whoa.

Another crappy instance is Hitman 2 on GameCube:  if there's too many dead people in one stage (ragdoll corpses that have a specific location and do not disappear) the mid-mission game save will fail, resulting in a corrupt save file on the memory card (gotta delete and start over, bah).
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 07:03:27 PM by NinGurl69 *huggles »
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Offline Shift Key

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2009, 05:56:44 AM »
So Nintendo has implemented things in such a way as to make offering some simple things to their customers impossible.

Their two competitors have avoided this problem and have served their customers better on this front.

but because it doesn't surprise Shift Key that makes it alright.

Glad that is sorted.

I find this response hilarious. Who are you again? Nevermind, I don't have time for your life story. Lets get down to the brass tacks.

1) Enlighten me to these "simple things" which are simply impossible to achieve. Aside from it being a games console, everything else is an addon to the core. Storage, features, patches, free ****. Its merely decoration to the simple fact that you bought the console to play games - most likely Nintendo games. The fact that people run around saying "X* is wrong with the Wii", but the majority think that X as a non-issue - and I've got the sales data to prove this, what have you go? -  is a good indicator that some people can't see the forest for the trees. And this effect is magnified by the vocal minority, who carry a chip on their shoulder and their own soapbox so that they can spew this nonsense, at every opportunity, in the general direction of anyone who might care.

* Put in your own value for X - there's a laundry list of things in this thread alone that can go there. Think back to the start. Think back to E3. Remember everything that people complained about? Good times, weren't they? Let the nostalgia envelop you. We can wait...

All good? Next point.

2) How can you say with a straight face that the others "served their customers better" ? Are you choosing to ignore that drawn out RROD debacle - which it turned out was by design and far from an isolated problem - and Sony screwing up the backwards compatibility with challenger number 3?

I got rid of my PS2 before the Wii came out, and was planning to get a PS3 at some stage, but now they've managed to turn me off completely and so my large PS2 library sits at home, unplayed. And I've been meaning to get a 360 for ages, but even now I find that easier to put off despite the guarantee around replacing my console if it breaks. Hah, if.

Of course, I'm only a potential customer to "the others" (not even a real statistic, I know), but its **** like that that makes me glad I've got a simple console to play when the urge hits. I don't need to worry about ensuring that my console is correctly ventilated (or the fact that IF I POSITION IT UPRIGHT I'M BASICALLY ASKING FOR IT TO SCRATCH MY DISCS) or that my copy of "INSERT OBSCURE PS2 TITLE" here may or may not play on my lobotomised PAL console - its like a game of chance, except I already lost my winnings on the griller prize and am subjected to play this game for all eternity.

I think I'm going to punch the next person who says "next-gen console" to my face - that term annoys me so, and not just for the undertones that "Its a machine from the future! and its here! Today! What's your excuse, lamer?"

3) I am not an oracle or a witch or a seer to the future. I'm just a guy who's seen this **** before. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. If you think complaining on a forum about this stuff is going to fix it, you've got a lot to learn. But of course, you weren't doing that. You were just trolling. Bravo, the cool kids are impressed by stuff like that.

Go outside.

PS Cute username. I'm going to call you wedgiemental from here on in.

Offline redgiemental

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2009, 06:14:45 AM »
Are you arguing for patches Ningurl?
You're making a good case.

I don't particularly like the patching culture but it beats having to send my disc back. Which is what happened when I got to a game breaking bug in Super Paper Mario.

I wasn't aware new Mario Kart and Smash Bros games were coming out next year Shift Key. Glad I'll be able to use basic online features like voice chat with them next year.

Spak-Spang the way the Wii software infrastructure is now helps pirates and homebrewer's by making it harder for Nintendo to close exploits. "it took them well over half a year to fix the fakesigning exploit and ship the IOS updates for all 23 versions". So it isn't to help combat piracy in fact quite the opposite. I never hear of anyone being able to install hacked unpaid for XBLA games on their 360 but I do hear about people installing hacked VC titles for example.

I said on this front not in general Shift Key can you read? Yes Sony and Microsoft have made bad choices in other areas that doesn't mean it nullifies Nintendo's.

I don't have a PS3 but I am a little annoyed that it doesn't have BC. My 360 is still functioning but that doesn't mean RRoD isn't a worry I could do without. I'll also add the 360's half hearted BC is a fly in the ointment too.

However both of Nintendo's competitors have gone with the more sensible option of an open system they have change and improve at any time. So it's fair game to criticise Nintendo for doing a worse job.

Offline Shift Key

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2009, 08:15:19 AM »
I wasn't aware new Mario Kart and Smash Bros games were coming out next year Shift Key. Glad I'll be able to use basic online features like voice chat with them next year.

I see what you did there! And with such wit. I am humbled by your wordsmanship.

See that? Two can play at the sarcasm game, wise guy. For the record, voice chat on XBL has given me the opportunity to endure trash-talking from teenagers who demonstrate limited vocabularies (and who do not appreciate the fine insults like "miserable toerag"). I can't wait for that sort of experience to come to the Wii. Oh damn, you caught me. Sarcasm again!

For all I care, AC can be the only game that uses it, and there will be much rejoicing because the teenage girls playing it will love it and I'll be elsewhere, not caring about voice chat. Because I prefer multiplayer games with people in the same room - it makes victory snatched from the jaws of defeat all the sweeter when the losers can't mute my celebratory cussing.

I said on this front not in general Shift Key can you read? Yes Sony and Microsoft have made bad choices in other areas that doesn't mean it nullifies Nintendo's.

Au contraire, my funnily-named friend. You're skewing the playing field in favour of what I consider to be a minor thing. If we consider this as one situation (and not several fronts, this isn't Normandy) then the sins of the gaming outweigh the sins of the firmware.

However both of Nintendo's competitors have gone with the more sensible option of an open system they have change and improve at any time. So it's fair game to criticise Nintendo for doing a worse job.

Dear me, you haven't been paying attention. Still can't see the trees for the forest.

Sure, in bizarro world where "open systems" matter and games don't, the others might be winning in terms of third-part support, marketshare, revenue, moneyhats, rap battles, whatever metric matters to the precious industry. But this is the vidya game industry, and any and all criticisms should be weighted up against that simple measuring stick.

Does it change my gaming experience for the better? This isn't simply a contest of "haves" and "have-nots". I consider firmware to be a moot point in all this - pretty colours and shiny things given to distract people from the fact that they're not playing vidya games. Perhaps you think differently, but I remember the days when the firmware was so basic that they NEVER UPDATED IT, and the only time spent using the console without playing vidya games was the few seconds when you watched the loading screens pass.

But no, these days I've got to go through bloody menu systems three deep in order to get to the actual game, and woe betide any time I need to change the configuration of the system, because then i'll have to go through an illogical menu system to do simple things like changing screen resolutions. And even though we've moved to disc-based media and faster processors and more memory (damn you Moore, you'll pay for this), we've got MORE ingame loading and MORE company graphics before the title distracting from the actual vidya games.

But having complex firmware that can change at will, that's a good thing? No, its not. Its symptomatic of components of the industry focusing on things other than the games. I'm sure I've taken you way out of context, but you seem to be a broken record that Nintendo is responsible for some dud firmware. So jump in and correct me, I can't wait for your next rambling post.

Offline redgiemental

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2009, 09:47:10 AM »
I too prefer local multiplayer, it is more fun and I love having a few friends over for some beers and a game night.

Though I often play old friends of mine via Xbox Live and it's a lot of fun to have a few games of something and have a little bit of teasing and ribbing with people I don't live particularly close to anymore.

Quite a few of those same friends also have Wii and Mario Kart was always a multiplayer favourite back in the day. Playing Mario Kart online on Wii just feels sterile in comparison and we barely play it compared to XBL.

It's not just voice chat either the lack of system wide operating system means I can't turn on my Wii and see that a few of my friends are playing X game and jump right in. What was the point in adding them as Wii friends outside games again?

I'm not arguing Nintendo's sins versus Sony's or Microsoft. This is a thread about the Wii's firmware set up. I was talking about FIRMWARE not having a whole console showdown like you seem to want to do.

Open and fixable is not the same as complex. I've made no arguement for complex or asked that the Wii plays movies or anything like that.

I've merely commented on areas where it directly affects my enjoyment of GAMES.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 09:51:01 AM by redgiemental »

Offline Nick DiMola

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2009, 09:50:12 AM »
Just because people have differing visions of what a console should and should not offer doesn't mean one person is right or wrong.

Tone it down guys, you're all taking something pretty meaningless way too serious.
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Offline Plugabugz

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2009, 10:07:51 AM »
So can i ask. What does the Wii operating system (if you want to call it that) do right?

The phrase about "never building your house upon the sand" seems to fit here.

Offline Dasmos

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2009, 10:10:00 AM »
Quite a few of those same friends also have Wii and Mario Kart was always a multiplayer favourite back in the day. Playing Mario Kart online on Wii just feels sterile in comparison and we barely play it compared to XBL.

You picked the wrong online game to rag on. Mario Kart Wii's online has everything you need. The only things omitted are redundant features like voice chat.

Quote
It's not just voice chat either the lack of system wide operating system means I can't turn on my Wii and see that a few of my friends are playing X game and jump right in.


You can do that in Mario Kart.

Quote
What was the point in adding them as Wii friends outside games again?

I've added both my Auntie's Wii numbers to my Wii, I can send them photos, VC console games, Mii's and messages, but I don't want to play her in anything online. They suck at online games.
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Offline Pale

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2009, 10:26:35 AM »
To be fair Dasmos, you can only see if they are playing if you load up the Mario Kart Channel.

On the 360, you get notified that someone came online, then you can see what they are playing from the pause menu of any game.

I understand that many people don't care about these features, but for those that do, hearing that (in this writer's opinion) it is basically impossible for Nintendo to add them this generation is a pretty frustrating thing, as its something a lot of people were holding out hope for.
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Offline redgiemental

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Re: Why the Wii will never get any better (Firmware Related)
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2009, 10:58:12 AM »
Thank you Pale.. There are other Wii games they could be playing online too that aren't Mario Kart.

For me Dasmos voice chat is not redundant feature, the lack of it in Mario Kart is the primary reason I don't play a game I otherwise really enjoy. I like to play online with actual real-life friends and voice chat really is a big part of the enjoyment.

Fair point on the Wii system friends but it does seem silly not to have that connected to the games too.

The voice chat feature could easily have been added to Mario Kart if Nintendo had adopted a different a less restrictive system. Bottom line.