Topic: Final Fantasy 12 Website Up And Running

[Bill Aurion]

I don't approve of being mocked for not liking violence and sex appeal in my games

[Grey Ninja]

Sales steadily increased until FF8, regardless of platform, then all of a sudden dropped.  I wonder why?

[Gup]

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Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
Sales steadily increased until FF8, regardless of platform, then all of a sudden dropped.  I wonder why?

Again, PS' FF games sold better than FC.  And again, FFIX was released near PSOne's death(did you compare Ocarina of Time's sales to Majora's Mask which also released at the end of its' system's life).  And again, FFX is the top selling PS2 game and it was released on a new system with a lower user installed base.  And again Gup still 1, Grey still 0.

[Bill Aurion]

- Majora's Mask's time limit cut out some potential sales, just so you know...

- The 3d look, plus Square's major advertising on FFVII made it sell well, FFVIII was living off the hype that FFVII had made(I, too, jumped at FFVIII after FFVII's hype...One of my worst gaming memories >_< )...After that junk, sales went down anyway, no matter if FFIX was shipped at the end of the PS1, sales were still less overall...

"And again Gup still 1, Grey still 0.
Hahaha!  I can already picture the kind of person you are...

(edit: And where the hell did you come up with the idea that a game that sells well is good?)

[Grey Ninja]

Gee I wish I could just randomly assign scores like you Gup.  You are my hero.  I also wish that I had the keen deductive aiblity to chart a graph to match my opinions like you.  Also, I must mention that you are 100% right that Ocarina of Time didn't sell better because it was a better game.  It is perfectly obvious to me now that since it was sold when the userbase of the N64 was near its peak, it was ignored.  Your wisdom is truly an inspiration for us all.

[Gup]

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Originally posted by: Bill<br"And again Gup still 1, Grey still 0.
Hahaha!  I can already picture the kind of person you are...A stubborn mule who thinks this is a game...

Me, stubborn, whatever do you mean?  I make valid proof of the points I make and back it up.  Somebody says FF sales on Nintendo systems were better, I prove them wrong.  Someone says PS's FF is sells on violence and sex, I prove them wrong.  Any problems with that?  And again(with some modifications) Gup still 1, Grey and Bill still 0

[Gup]

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Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
Gee I wish I could just randomly assign scores like you Gup.  You are my hero.  I also wish that I had the keen deductive aiblity to chart a graph to match my opinions like you.

Why thank you, I am Gup "Game Guru" afterall(see profile)

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Also, I must mention that you are 100% right that Ocarina of Time didn't sell better because it was a better game.  It is perfectly obvious to me now that since it was sold when the userbase of the N64 was near its peak, it was ignored.

Did I ever say that? *looks through previous posts* No.  

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Your wisdom is truly an inspiration for us all.

Thank you again, your sarcasm is very much appreciated.  Anyways I'm going to sleep now, if there's anymore Final Fantasy bashing going on, leave a message and I'll return to fight the good fight

[Bill Aurion]

If FFVII was on a Ninty system, it would have sold just as much.  As I said before, FFVII was Square's most-hyped FF at that point.  Gamers were led in by the beautiful FMV(for it's time) and 3d graphics.  As Grey said, it doesn't matter how much each FF sold...What DOES matter is that FF sales were going up with every game until FFIX...They are now heading down.  You don't seem to understand sales trends do you?  And I never meant that FF sells on violence and sex.  I meant it to be a generalized statement for the gaming industry as a whole.  What FF does sell on now is flashy pop culture crap and WAY too much FMV.  Square is just getting way too damn lazy, knowing that their games will sell, no matter what they pass out.  Their creativity has taken a downhill trend as well.  You can't tell me you think character design in FFX is better than in FFVII...It seems that since FFVIII lazy, half-assed character designs is the status quo at Square

(And you can't prove wrong the fact that FFX had sex appeal that did not need to be included...Just look at some of the outfits...Look at Rikku!...*puke*)  

[rpglover]

sales do not matter in this- it is the games that i have problems with
i will have to agree with both bill and grey here (as i usually do)
basically i always turn to characters in rpgs and the newer final fantasy games just didnt have the great characters as the older games had (in my view at least)
take for example final fantasy 6- i thought everyone of the 13 characters you could get in your party were very well drawn out and had good back stories behind them- but not just that- the main villan (kefka) was what really made me love the game- he was such a great villian as shown in his actions through out the game- the only final fantasy that actually was decent in the new ones was definately final fantasy 7- that game had good characters and not just some normal steriotypes- and the main villian in that game (sephiroth) was pretty cool too- the story was crafted well and the game itself was decent- but the final fantasy games after that have been pretty bad- final fantasy 8 was not good at all in my opinion- too many new things= not a good final fantasy game- and final fantasy 9 was not that bad, but it was not good either- square tried hard to make the characters a throwback to the final fantasy games of old, but i didnt like the gameplay that awful much- and final fantasy X was not as good as most people say it is (in my opinion remember)- the gameplay was changed too much for my liking- although the spere grid was a good idea on paper, it didnt translate well in the game- and the characters were too boring for my taste

but as grey said earlier too, just because i dont like the newer final fantasy games does not mean i hate square nor am i just ignorant to anything- many games from square were very good- i though square did a better job with the new games made than with their main games (final fantasy, chrono chross come to mind...) i still feel xenogears to be one of the best rpgs this generation, and vagrant story is a masterpiece- parasite eve was also good

but as i have said before, i hope FFXII will reenergize the series- they have a very talented director at the helm, so in my mind i should have no fear- i just hope the story and characters are well done this time

[Bill Aurion]

Agreed...Character design and development = my main reason for getting an RPG.  That's the reason I love Golden Sun even though it's not an acclaimed RPG...I loved the characters(especially Mia, she HAD to be in my party ^_^) and I actually felt emotional when a character was downed...And don't get me started on FFVII.  There is not a single person who has played it that didn't cry when *One of the biggest videogame spoilers of all-time*.  I haven't felt any compassion towards the characters in the latest games, so no matter how flashy the game is, it won't make me like it any more...Here's to having interesting and unique character design and development in FFXII

[KDR_11k]

RPGs have two parts: Story and gameplay. A bad story can be made up for by good gameplay (Grandia 2 or any dungeon crawler spring to mind) and vice versa. However, when both suck (like in FF8) the motivation just isn't there. The FF gameplay never was anything outstanding, so the story is their standing leg. Unfortunately CRPGs always have clichee-laden, predictable stories. Doesn't look good for them...

[Urkel]

Hoo boy. I haven't posted here in quite a while, but this is a topic that's been bugging me for a while.

Basically, I feel almost exactly like Grey Ninja does. Most people now that are big fans of Final Fantasy are too young to remember Square back in its prime. Final Fantasy 3, Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger. Sigh... It just bothers me when teenagers think that the current Final Fantasies are the end all be all experience. Now, I don't think that all of Square has gone to crap. I'm currently 55 hours into FFTA. I loved the original FFT. One game that I'm sure none of you have ever played is Front Mission 3. It's a shame too, because I like it even better than the other two. But when it comes to the recent Final Fantasies:

FF7 - As far as I'm concerned, this is the most overrated game of all time. It was by no means an awful game, it just wasn't deserving of even one tenth the amount of hype it deserved. I can't believe I nearly sold my N64 to buy this, but my brother ended up buying a PSX with his own money. Again, not a bad game, just not a great game. Maybe my opinion of it would be higher if FF3 hadn't set the bar so high. Oh, and I didn't cry when Aeris died. Maybe because stupid EGM likes to print major game spoilers right when a game comes out, so it was no surprise.

Anyway, it seems pretty obvious to me why this game did so extremely well. Graphics. Simple as that. Gup, you honestly don't think it had anything to do with the massive ad campaign in which only FMV was shown? I bet the average person who rushed out and bought it barely even knew what genre the game was in.

FF8 - Ugh. I don't like this. Do I actually have to explain? Do I have to? I'm just so surprised how many people think this is still even an above average game, when it just seems to be so objectively bad. The gameplay is just so terribly flawed that I can't believe people actually got SOME enjoyment out of it. I dunno. It's almost like saying you loved Superman 64. Almost. Where was the fun? I honestly don't remember having any fun playing this game. First, they messed up the magic system. Drawing spells from enemies is tedious and requires no skill or strategy, so what's the point? The weapons upgrade system was flawed too. You needed certain items to upgrade them, but finding the right items from the right enemies just didn't happen enough. By the end of the 3rd disc, most of my party still had their original weapons.

That leads into my next complaint. Since your weapons are so ineffective, that forces you to use the stupid summons. All. The. Time. And you can't skip them. They're like 30+ seconds long. Awful. Just awful. For some reason, they made even the most mundane enemy have a ridiculous amount of HP, so fighting even the simplest battles lasted several minutes. This once again leads into another complaint. There were too many random battles. And not just by a little bit. A lot. Getting into a fight after taking 1-4 steps is the norm and not the exception. Again, not fun.

To top it off they had the incredibly flawed junction system. As far as I'm concerned, this was a sign of sheer laziness. In case you didn't notice, there was no armor, hats, accessories, or any of that in FF8. Rather than have to make up all that stuff, they threw together the half-assed junction system to determine your enhancements.

The only reason I wrote such a long rant on FF8 was just to show a list of legitamite complaints about this game. I have played it, and played it enough to come up with a rather sizable and detailed list of complaints. If you disagree, fine, just don't think that I'm some rabid fanboy that didn't give the game a chance. I did. I wanted to like this. It's just impossible for me to like something that isn't just some game that fell below expectations, but something that I feel was one of the worst gaming experiences ever.

I have more to say about this, but for now I just want to get the point across that some of us DO have legitamite complaints about the series. Besides, didn't the guys at Brownie Brown leave Square because they "Didn't like the direction the company was going in"? Hardly just a bunch of Nintendo fanboys.

[Gup]

Well Urkel, you have some "legitamite" complaints about FFVIII(sorry, not FFVII) and I can understand you since you gave some nice points(ofcourse not everyone agrees with it), but the others just say it "plain sucks" or it's "uninspired" which doesn't help in the argument.

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Originally posted by: Bill
And you can't prove wrong the fact that FFX had sex appeal that did not need to be included...Just look at some of the outfits...Look at Rikku!...*puke*

Coming from someone who only uses female avatars. . . okay there bud.

[KnowsNothing]

I agree with most about what you say about FF8.  But for some reason, I still have fun with it.  I love the card game, TripleTriad, too.  One thing that really bothers me, is that the enemy's strength depends on the level of your character, so the motivatin to level up just isn't there.  Plus, if you have one dude at level 100, and the others at some insanely low levels, like 10, then the enemy will be at level 40 and will be killed in a heartbeat by lvl. 100.  But I consider that cheating and i keep my party as close as possible in levels.

whatever.

[mouse_clicker]

I don't care if you have legitimate reasons for disliking FFVII through FFX- The only Final Fantasy games I've ever personally played are a little bit of FFVI and FFX. I just don't like it when people act like snobs with a superiority complex and look down upon anyone who did like the games. It's become painfully obvious who hates those games on this forum because they seem to feel the need to tell everyone multiple times whenever the topic turns to the subject of RPG's. I think it's high time you guys just shut up already.

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RPGs have two parts: Story and gameplay. A bad story can be made up for by good gameplay (Grandia 2 or any dungeon crawler spring to mind) and vice versa.

Grrr.... WHY do people always say Grandia 2 had a bad story? The plot was nothing special, obviously, but the story itself was magnificent, ESPECIALLY for the religious message they had in the game. Most of the time RPG's tell you to trust in your friends and believe in yourself, which is all fine and dandy the first time around. I'm REALLY glad someone finally made a game that tackles religious beliefs.

Besides that, though, Grandia just plain has the best battle systen ever concieved of.  

[Bill Aurion]

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Originally posted by: Gup
Coming from someone who only uses female avatars. . . okay there bud.

Look at you...Personally attacking someone instead of staying on the issue...

Wow! Collet is showing off a lot of skin! Lots of sex appeal went into that character design! </sarcasm>

[mouse_clicker]

Almost everything has sex appeal, especially in an industry where the very large majority of customers are male, and that's not a legitimate reason for attacking one game. I'd think you would have gotten use to it by now.

[Bill Aurion]

It doesn't belong in Final Fantasy...period.  I know the gaming and movie industries reek of the stuff, but that doesn't mean that classics need to be tainted with it.  Do you want to see Peach in a thong?  New franchises made by new developers will be following today's culture, but I would have hoped that a company like Square wouldn't...

[mouse_clicker]

It doesn't belong in ANYTHING, so why is Final Fantasy such a special case for your attacks?

[Bill Aurion]

Because it didn't start with it!  GTA did so though I don't approve of it, there is reason for it being so.  Final Fantasy didn't have any of this pop culture sex appeal until FFVIII!  I'm sick of arguing about how I feel about the FF series, and I'm sick of arguing with a FF fanboy and someone who probably doesn't remember the early days of FF...

[mouse_clicker]

FF fanboy? I don't know if you read my last post, but the only Final Fantasy game I've played extensively is FFX, and while I liked it, I've played much better. But it shouldn't matter if I had played ALL of the Final Fantasies or NONE them. It's your holier-than-thou attitude, that you just displayed, that makes me so angry, not your opinion on the games. I don't CARE if you don't like Final Fantasy now- that's what my point. I'm sure you do have very legitimate reasons for disliking the more recent entries (sex appeal not being one of them), but that doesn't mean you should go around bashing the games constantly and then turn around and flame the people that did like them. I guess you guys see yourselves as being more hardcore or superior if you bash Final Fantasy- I bet a lot of you do it just because everyone else does. Regardless of whatever reasons you people have for hating Final Fantasy now, if you even have reasons, you only need to express that unique point of view once.  

[Bill Aurion]

Maybe I didn't make that last statement clear.  Gup = FF fanboy, not you mouse_clicker...

[mouse_clicker]

Okay, good- I probably just misread.

Anyway, I've already said all I can say, and I don't want to get into a flame war with anyone.

[KDR_11k]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Grrr.... WHY do people always say Grandia 2 had a bad story? The plot was nothing special, obviously, but the story itself was magnificent, ESPECIALLY for the religious message they had in the game. Most of the time RPG's tell you to trust in your friends and believe in yourself, which is all fine and dandy the first time around. I'm REALLY glad someone finally made a game that tackles religious beliefs.

Besides that, though, Grandia just plain has the best battle systen ever concieved of.

Uhhh.... It was just the same old "don't trust the church, they're evil fanatics"-message that every second game with religion tries to send. Of course the church is evil, after all it's a CRPG and in those the church is always evil! The story was like 10 hours shorter than the game and the end was just clicheed.

I agree, the battle system is good. That's why I listed it under "gameplay examples", not "complete failures".

[Urkel]

Fair enough, mouse_clicker. I too hate it when people relentlessly bash something over and over again.

I guess my problem isn't just with the newer Final Fantasy games, it's with a lot of RPGs in general. I'm one of those "crazy people" that thinks that gameplay is the most important aspect of a game, regardless of genre. I'll never understand the mentality of "story first, gameplay second" when it comes to RPGs. Why do RPGs get a pass when it comes to gameplay? It's not like having a great story takes away development time from the gameplay aspect. Take Deus Ex, for example. Great story,  excellent open-ended gameplay, plenty of character interaction, and a lengthy adventure (some would say TOO lengthy). Why can't all RPGs be like that? As far as I'm concerned, story and cinematics are the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

If I want a great story, I'd rather read a book, watch TV, or go see a movie. I play videogames because of the gameplay. If I'm not having fun while playing an RPG, the story sure as hell isn't going to make me feel any better. But hey, that's me.

If you like the gameplay in the newer Final Fantasy games, that's fine. I like a lot of games that other people don't. The subjective quality of gameplay really isn't the point of this post. It's just that I've noticed a lot of people say that gameplay really isn't that important in RPGs. THAT'S what bothers me the most.

Anyway, I think mouse is right about not bashing stuff over and over. This last rant was more about RPGs in general, and not specifically about FF, but I think I'll stop here. I don't really have anything more to say that I haven't said already.

Oh, and I noticed Gup was quick to point out the ONE WORD that I misspelled in my last post. So I guess now the score is:

Gup, the grammer Nazi - 2
Me - Negative 10,032,489,837,458,674,572.0038259125
The entire cast of The Goonies - 10,000,000,000




(Admit it, The Goonies is the greatest movie ever made)







(I spelled grammar wrong on purpose. Sorry to get your hopes up, Gup)